Talk:Siege of Kijevo

Municipality of Kijevo sourced claims
Hi all! I tried my best to replace the Municipality of Kijevo refs in the siege article, but I'm afraid this is quite unlikely to be completed. I looked hard, but there's not a peep elsewhere on any of those. Right now there are three claims supported by that source only:


 * 1) ... the villagers smuggled weapons through mountain paths while keeping a distance from a nearby newly created outpost of the Yugoslav People's Army (JNA).[5]
 * 2) In the night of 27/28 April, a group of Croatian Ministry of the Interior officers broke through the barricades and arrived in Kijevo.[5]
 * 3) As the JNA subsequently entered the village to enforce the blockade, the civilians in Kijevo formed a human shield to protect the police station building, starting a standoff.[5]

I think claim 1 may safely be removed altogether because it adds little information. The preceding sentence in the article establishes that the population established an ad hoc militia which implies they had some sort of weapons. Whether those were home made or smuggled or bought makes little difference to comprehension of the article. The final part of the claim says that they kept clear of the JNA checkpoint(s) which seems to be quite obvious.

Claim 2 is quite problematic since it purports the police broke through barricades, which are supposedly put in place on all access routes only two days later, according to the remainder of the section of the article - which makes little sense. The date itself is not problematic, but the following sentence indicates a police station was established on 28 April, implying the police arrived that day (possibly that night). Therefore I feel the claim could be removed with no harm to the article too.

Claim 3 is a bit different, adding info, but I simply cannot find any other ref to back it up. I seem to remember that taking place, but there's just no word on the human shield. I'm at odds regarding removal of this claim (Does WP:EXCEPTIONAL apply here?), so could you venture an opinion, both on this one and the ones above? Cheers.--Tomobe03 (talk) 14:47, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * As for #1, I think the fact that JNA had created a new outpost there as early as April is a critical factoid. It goes to show at a minimum that the situation was considered a non-trivial problem by the army.


 * I don't quite see the problem with #2. The source says u noći s 27. na 28. travnja 1991. kada je između Civljana i Štikova probijen obruč koji je stezao Kijevo te u Kijevo dolaze hrvatski redarstvenici i formiraju Policajsku postaju Kijevo. Admittedly, the prose is a bit lax, the source doesn't say what this obruč was made of - maybe they just drove around a few checkpoints. I think it's necessary to clarify that throughout April, there was an effective blockade of the village in place, and that the act of creating a police station wasn't arbitrary. That is, assuming the claim is indeed true.


 * For #3, the source says Tada je tzv. JNA tenkovima i transporterima zauzela cestu ispred Policijske postaje [...] žene, djeca i starci; svi su stali između tenkova i policijske postaje, a svi radno sposobni muškarci bili su na obrambenim punktovima na straži. - that's a clear description of a human shield. The source describes it as something formed ad hoc, which may well be biased; but if it is true, it's worth noting.


 * I think the main problem is that we're still missing a reference to an actual secondary source on the events, a work that specifically covers the siege. We found some document archives composed by Ante Nazor, but we actually need a proper description of the events. Something like Slaven Ružić's paper, but not it, because it doesn't cover the area of Knin.


 * It seems to me that a search of good old paper sources is in order. Wikipedia shouldn't just be a summary of the Internet :) --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 17:15, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Right. Nazor, Ante (2007). Počeci suvremene hrvatske države: kronologija procesa osamostaljenja Republike Hrvatske: od Memoranduma SANU 1986. do proglašenja neovisnosti 8. listopada 1991 unfortunately hardly mentions Kijevo (hard copy checked thoroughly). I'll keep on looking then.--Tomobe03 (talk) 20:52, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * According to Bilić, p.119, the JNA marched through Kijevo on 28 April, and according to Nazor, the JNA imposed the blockade on 29 April.--Tomobe03 (talk) 18:53, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Sučić, p.65 indicates the blockade was originally imposed by SAO Krajina police alone in the wake of Plitvice clash, but specifies no date.--Tomobe03 (talk) 19:41, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Tatalović, p.176 makes a puzzling statement which may hold key to the date of the JNA blockade: "The tension in Kninska krajina reached its peak when Serbian forces and JNA troops blocked the Croatian village Kijevo near Knin, and the conflict between Serbian forces and Croatian police in Pakrac (Western Slavonia) on April 6 resulted in the involvement of the JNA in the conflict." As far as I can remember (and Miškulin, pp.385-389 seems to agree) there was no conflict "between Serbian forces and Croatian Police in Pakrac on April 6". There was one before that, and several later on, but not in April. Could it be that the "on April 6" refers to the initial part of the sentence discussing imposition of the blockade of Kijevo? I wish I had the text in original (Croatian).--Tomobe03 (talk) 21:07, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Another factoid from the municipality page is interesting - they say the first blockade lasted 30 days, but Gow says it lasted two weeks. Other sources don't quite seem to talk about when it was lifted... maybe it just subsided gradually? --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 17:41, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Quite possible, but given what the sources say, and giving Gow a bit greater weight, I'd stick with Gow.--Tomobe03 (talk) 17:49, 16 March 2014 (UTC)