Talk:Siege of Leningrad/Archive 1

Disambiguation
should this be under the disambig. page for Leningrad? Jds10912 00:48, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Old talk
Should this be "Dimitri Shostakovich" or "Dmitri Shostakovich"?

The name is Dmitri Shostakovich Steve shelok  honov  20:49, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't find it written anywhere that the Finns killed Leningrad Zoo's elephant. According to all sources I check it was a German bomb.
 * I'd heard it recounted as an example of coincidence that "The first shell fired by the German forces at the Siege of Leningrad killed nothing but the only elephant at Leningrad Zoo." If true this should probably be in the article. Tyrhinis 22:13, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

"As a sad postscript, Stalin had the leaders of the city executed on various pretexts after the war — they had, through their bravery and courageous defence, earned a respect of the citizens that the dictator resented and feared, and became too independent in their actions. For example, in 1944 several streets of Leningrad were renamed back to their historic names, including "Prospect of 25 October", which reverted back to its previous name, Nevsky Prospekt."

This is POV. You cannot say that they were executed on pretexts, that Stalin "resented and feared" those who had the respect of the people, or that Stalin was even behind the executions. Source this stuff properly and distinguish facts from attributed claims. Everyking 06:47, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

==Nazi Germany and Finland closing the siege from north and south== Can we have some description of the extent to which the Germans entered the city? For example what areas were overrun and what actual fighting was done by the defenders.--Korona 15:42, 30 October 2005 (UTC)


 * The Germans never set foot inside the city itself. DMorpheus 02:21, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

The Nazis reached 4 km south of the Kirov Plant and 16 km south of the Hermitage. They were stopped there, but continued massive artillery bombardments of the Historic Centre of Saint Petersburg and Related Groups of Monuments from the distance of 16 km from the Hermitage. The Italian military took Strelna suburb together with Germans, together they also occupied suburban towns of Peterhof, Tsarskoye Selo - Pushkin - Pavlovsk, Gatchina, Krasnoye Selo, and Oranienbaum among other suburbs of St. Petersburg.

The Finnish forces took  northern suburbs of St. Petersburg: Sestroretsk, Komarovo, Zelenogorsk, Beloostrov and other communities of Kurortny District of St. Petersburg city. Finnish forces were 34 km from the Historic Centre of Saint Petersburg and Related Groups of Monuments

Finland and Nazi Germany were co-belligerent powers among Axis Powers in WWII. In June 1942, during the siege of Leningrad, Hitler and his generals had a meeting with Carl Gustaf Mannerheim and Ryti in Finland.

Special Naval Detachment K under the Finnish operative command had clashes against Leningrad supply route on southern Ladoga with the assistance of German and Italian naval forces. Steve shelok  honov  19:08, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

cannibalism?
Should any mention of the (supposed?) cannibalism that took place be added?


 * A German friend of mine, who felt terribly guilty about his country's past, once told me that by the end of the Siege of Leningrad, there was nary a dog, cat, rat, bird, or hamster alive in the city. If the elephant hadn't been killed by a bomb, he would probably have been stripped to the bones anyway.

Okay I have talked to some of my dad's friends about Leningrad. Thses guys had family members in the city when this was happening, they told what the survivors told him. Yes there is caninalism... the city was named after a Communist leader, its like Washington D.C. we would never give it up. Stalin and Hitler signed a Non-Agression Pact which said we dont fight at all. Well Hitler lied when he attacked on June 22nd 1941. So this got personal between Hitler and Stalin. I agree about what the writer above me said about animals being eaten, but also Humans ate humans. My Dad's friend told me that the sickest child that was going to die was to be sacraficed for the family. Written by Gabe Piuleac Story told by Egor...

As far as i known there were also trials after the war because some people had even caught others to eat them. Was in the newspaper once. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.135.240.9 (talk) 20:56, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Workers vs City Employees
In the Food section, it twice refers to different ration levels for workers and employees (the workers had 600 grams of bread daily, employees - 400). Can someone explain what the difference is? Small black sun 03:42, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The food rations were different for rabochiy (manual workers), sluzhaschiy (any other employee of a state-owned establishment) and the izhdiventsy (dependants and all other people). abakharev 04:24, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I put a little of this in, but I don't have russian letters on keyboard. Can someone put these words in  after the english designation

POV
''As a sad postscript, Stalin had the leaders of the city executed on various pretexts after the war &mdash; they had, through their bravery and courageous defence, earned the respect of the citizens, which the dictator resented and feared, and became too independent in their actions. For example, in 1944 several streets of Leningrad were renamed back to their historic names, including "Prospect of 25th of October", which reverted to its previous name, Nevsky Prospekt.''

Can anibody remove the POV? Besides, the example does not prove the first sentence.--Nixer 23:39, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Cleaning up english
I am cleaning up some of the english in this article (notably the use of articles and some punctuation). Note that I am also editing some quotes - I am assuming these are translations, and as such, am taking a few liberties with them (inserting commas, "of", etc).

Military significance of the siege
Does anyone know the military significance of the siege? That might be worth adding.

Also why exactly they never surrendered.Who controlled the city from the inside? Was that German conditions or just plain fanatism? Its usually more rational to accept defeat and surrender then to take such casualties.Leningrad wasn't self-sufficient in the siege so the people who commanded it,were irrational fanatics.
 * I think if the city surrendered, it would be much more civil casualities. Hitler ordered to demolish the city as a whole. By the way, there were many military industry in rthe city and Leningrad-produced tanks were transported to Stalingrad for example.--Nixer 17:00, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Three things:
 * 1. Leningrad was a major industrial center, one of the biggest in the USSR at the time. So the Soviets needed to hold it and, if the Germans could take it or cut it off, that production would be denied the rest of the country.
 * 2. Leningrad had enormous symbolic significance as the 'cradle of the revolution' for both sides. For the Soviets, losing Leningrad would be a huge symbolic blow. For the Germans, one of the major reasons the nazis came to power was their anticommunism. Taking or destroying Leningrad would be a symbolic victory of great significance.
 * 3. Finally, the fact that the Germans planned to surround, starve and raze the city tells us what their war was really about. It was a war of extermination. DMorpheus 13:45, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It is not really correct to say that "one of the major reasons the Nazis came to power was their anticommunism". Have a quick look a the article on the Weimar Republic and you will see that the combined number of votes and elected representatives of the Social Democrats and Communists was more than the Nazi's whose vote actually fell in the last election before they took over the state. If there had been unity on the left, the Nazi's would not have been able to take the path to power that they did and, who knows, history might have been very different! Dave Smith 00:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

shrapnel imbedded in the trees from the German artillery
Someone added that the "shrapnel imbedded in the trees from the German artillery attracts lightning". Wow, is it true? --Brand спойт  16:08, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

2-year-long battle to brake the siege
In Soviet counter-offensive section is mentioned that the siege continued until January 1944. However in the next sentence is mentioned that counter ofensive started on january 12 1943. Which one is true ? It seems to me that it is some mistake here.


 * Actually there were two different events known in Russian as "Proryv blokady" and "Snyatie blokady" (Breaching the Siege and Clearing the Siege). In January 1943 the Volkhov and Leningrad fronts met together so there became a land route to the sieged city over some 50 km wide strip of marshes. They even manage to hastily build a railroad over this strip. The Germans were still on the distance of a gun shot from the city and shelled it daily. The new railroad was also did not have the needed capacity. Thus, life in the city improved but it was still awful. In a year in January 1944 the Germans were driven from the city completely. abakharev 09:26, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * One of many counter-attacks on the Nazis in efforts to break the siege and help citizens in Leningrad. Nevsky pyatachok was a year-long battle to brake a narrow passage in the siege. 300 thousand men were killed within the spot of 1 km. Steve  shelok  honov  19:27, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism
The paragraph headed "Aftermath - The War" seems to have been vandalised. What to do about putting this right? Dave Smith 12:08, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Fixed, thanks, Dave abakharev 12:27, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Non-sensical Sentence?
At the end of the Power and Energy section is the following sentence:

However there were neither instruments nor hostels for groups formed from girls and teens.

In the context of the section this makes no apparant sense, so I'll remove. The Kinslayer 12:58, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

== Combatants ==

How Finland was a combatant in the siege of Leningrad if no attacks or even bombings were made? Having border with USSR in Karelia doesn't mean you are a combatant, and Finland only attacked ships in Ladoga. Then again, Britain can be classed as combatant in Battle of Stalingrad because they harrassed German troops and supply ships in Africa, thus not so much supplies or troops available, if we take a rad-example. I don't think any sources mention Finland as a straight combatant but it it can be discussed, and already has quite large chapter in the article. --Pudeo (Talk) 11:22, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * EDIT: It also says that Axis Powers and Spanish Blue Division were combatants. I don't think different divisions have to mentioned, and Spanish Blue Division is German Heer division. What other other-than German Axis Powers' forces fought in the Siege? --Pudeo (Talk) 11:25, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Well considering the blue division was the army of Spain in world war two i think it is relevant that it is up there.

The Blue Division was a German Division made up of Spanish volunteers. If that qualifies Spain as combatant at Leningrad than all other states which had Waffen-SS or Volunteer-Formations their, qualify as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.135.240.9 (talk) 21:01, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Finnish and German forces cooperated in attacking and besieging Leningrad


Finland and Nazi Germany were co-belligerent powers among Axis Powers in WWII. In June 1942, during the siege of Leningrad, Hitler and his generals had a meeting with Carl Gustaf Mannerheim and Ryti in Finland. ,

Finnish forces held the siege perimeter from September 1941 through January 1944, after they occupied northern suburbs of Leningrad, Zelenogorsk, Komarovo, Repino, Beloostrov, and several other suburbs, but when the Finns tried to advance closer to the Historic Centre of Saint Petersburg and Related Groups of Monuments, they were stopped 30 - 34 kilometers from the Hermitage.

On the 6th of September, 1941, Mannerheim receives the Order Of The Iron Cross for his command in the campaign. Nazi Germany's Chief of Staff Jodl brought the award to him with a personal letter from Hitler for the award ceremony held at Helsinki. Mannerheim was later photographed wearing the Nazi Cross while meeting with Hitler.,   Jodl's other reason for coming to Helsinki was to persuade Mannerheim to continue the Finnish offensive. Although during 1941 Ryti declared it as his goal to fight for more territories in the South for a "Greater Finland" in numerous speeches in the Finnish Parliament, but later, after the war, the former Finnish President Ryti changed his story, but still he was convicted for his crimes to 10 years in prison.

The Finnish artillery could not reach Hermitage area from the distance of 30 km, that is why Finnish bombardment was only sporadic, and was mainly used in direct battles with the Leningrad Front under Marshal Govorov. During the summer and fall of 1941, the Finnish attacks were stopped several times in battles of Sestroretsk and Beloostrov during September - December of 1941.

The Finnish forces took several railroad junctions, such as Petrozavodsk and Medvezhyegorsk, and thus blocked access to Leningrad from the Arctic seaports with large amounts of British food for starving citizens. Another Finnish attack blocked the Svir River, the main water connection to Leningrad and Lake Ladoga, thus blocking access to the Leningrad supply route.

In 1942, after Hitler's visit to Finland on July 4, 1942, the Finnish forces again attacked Leningrad from the north, mainly targeting the railroads to Leningrad from the seaports of Murmansk and Archangelsk where the Arctic convoys delivered food and supplies for survivors of Leningrad. Finnish forces blocked the northern connections to Leningrad and thus completed the encirclement of the city.

The Finnish forces were holding the siege perimeter for two-end-a-half years.

caption for infobox image?
Could somebody provide one? Gomm 01:54, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Setup for prebattle
In 1941, during Operation Barbarossa, German forces managed to actually get to a point where they could have successfully taken Leningrad with very few casualties. However, Hitler ordered his northern forces to "Dig in and hold ground", and this enabled the people of Leningrad to turn their city into a fortress. It was, yet again, German Command's incompetence that led to the fact that this siege lasted for such a long time.

Climie.ca 19:34, 13 March 2007 (UTC) Cam

This article still needs a thorough rewrite by an English native speaker, preferably a professional writer or editor. I would be willing to do it. With whom can I speak about this?

68.50.168.150 20:28, 24 June 2007 (UTC) June 24, 2007 20:27 GMT Ron Laurenzo


 * No need to speak to anyone. Be bold. 199.172.246.196 18:18, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Longest siege in history?
The Siege_of_Candia lasted 22 years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gakrivas (talk • contribs) 11:21, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree that I don't think this was the longest in all of history; I'm changing it for now. --CapitalR 09:58, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, its the longest now since the timeline goes to 2003! Steve, you will need to crop the timeline to the duration of the siege. All other consequences of the siege need to be in their own relevant articles.--  mrg3105mrg3105 05:43, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Start date, place and casualties
Firstly the Soviet records show start date as 10 July 1941.

Secondly in the operations on Estern Front link the Siege is given as Leningrad|Sinyavino. In fact the actual attempted relief in 1941 is known as the defence of the Nevsky Pyatachok (heel), and is considered a separate operation to the actual siege due to nature of operations, objectives and forces involved. The defence of the Neva 'heel' ended on the 29 April 1942 after an estimated 300 thousand Soviet and Wehrmacht troops were killed there.

Which still does not explain why Sinyavino was included in the Siege of Leningrad. Granted the village was there, and was completely destroyed in the fighting, but it was not at any time significnat to the siege operations.--Mrg3105 (talk) 10:27, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Time travel
Erm, the Naval Detachment K was formed in May 1942. Therefore, it is highly unlikely that Hitler's visit in June "resulted in its creation"... --Illythr (talk) 00:04, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Axis powers
Ahm, which were the Axis participating in the siege? So far as I know there was a really small Italian contingent that participated (only just) for a very short time. Does it really warrant the use of 'Axis'?--  mrg3105mrg3105 02:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC) Steveshelokhonov your additions to content should probably clarify that Finland was not a part of the Axis. That also probably helped in the later negotiations --  mrg3105mrg3105 03:28, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much for your kind attention to the siege of Leningrad and related history of Russia and WWII. Your involvement in moderating communication between users and finding mutual understanding is highly appreciated because of its genuine value and importance. This way we make Wikipedia better.

Summarizing the Wiki article on Axis Powers here is the chapter on Finland during WWII.

Co-beligerent Finland collaborated with the Nazi Germany and played a part in fighting against the Soviet Union to keep its independence.

Below please find the related discussion from my talk page. Steve shelok  honov  04:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * There is no need to post large chunks of text here. Co-belligerent does not = Axis as the article says. You therefore can't say they were when they were not. It seems to me that your use of 'Nazi' is also unwarranted. This is supposed to be the sieage, a military operation. If you want to emphasise the presence of Nazis, why not site Waffen-SS units. By and large the damage was done by artillery of whom very few were members of the Nazi Party (as was true for the whole of "Nazi Germany").--  mrg3105mrg3105 05:32, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * If we use "Nazi"s here, should we also use "Communist"s for Soviets? The number of Nazi Party members in the German army was the same level as number of Communist Party members in the Red Army.--Whiskey (talk) 11:20, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, well that is another point.

-> Rest moved to under international flotilla --Whiskey (talk) 20:55, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Siege of Leningrad
It is interesting that you believe the capability of the Finnish high command to time travel in the Siege of Leningrad article. (The dates are sourced, the reason and contents of the meeting are not.) --Whiskey (talk) 00:05, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Uh, just wanted to point out the same... Say, Whiskey, 1. What was the actual reason for the meeting? 2. What's the deal with this naval detachment? --Illythr (talk) 00:20, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * 1. Mannerheim's 75 birthday. See


 * 2. Colonel Eino Järvinen, who was responsible for coastal defence of the Lake Ladoga, wrote a memo during the winter 1942 where he recommended increasing the number of ships and planes in the area. The experiences of the previous summer, when Soviets had been able to evacuate three encircled divisions with their materiel across the lake and a threatening invasion near Salmi, created the need. He presented the memo to Lt.Gen. Paavo Talvela when he inspected the situation before he left to Germany as a liaison officer. Bypassing Finnish political and military leadership Talvela presented the memo directly in Berlin, where it was viewed very preferably, and April 21, 1942, Kriegsmarine asked Italian navy to transfer MTBs to Lake Ladoga with the mission statement first to prevent Soviet invasions to the Finnish rear and second to attack against Soviet supply transports. Italians accepted it at April 24. At May 13 Kriegsmarine announced to Finnish navy that they and Italians are sending are sending MTBs and mine boats to Lake Ladoga and giving them to Finnish operative command.


 * After initial confusion, Mannerheim gave order at May 17 which formed the Naval Detachment K, which initially consisted only Finnish motorgunboat 'Sisu', but should include German and Italian reinforcements when they arrived. The four Italian MTBs were transferred May 25 - June 21 from La Spezia to Lahdenpohja, and German Küstenminenboot June 23 - July 7. Germans improved local air defence by sending 21 battlerafts to the area, but they operated independently of Naval Detachment K.


 * The detachment made about 20 patrols against Soviet targets during the summer and autumn, but as they were still much weaker than Soviet forces in the area, the results were not good but Soviets were able to protect their supply runs to Leningrad. Finally at October 21, 1942 Mannerheim ordered Naval Detachment K to move to the Gulf of Finland and the unit was disbanded at October 30, 1942. --Whiskey (talk) 01:14, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * And what are those two sources about, then? Still, it looks like that detachment did participate in the siege - by harassing supply ships...? --Illythr (talk) 01:56, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Jatkosodan pikkujättiläinen tells the fleshed out story of those Italian and German boats at Lake Ladoga, in fact, I used the book to produce the outline above. I don't have access to the Swedish article about Hitler's visit to Mannerheim's birthday, but based on the publication time, I doubt there isn't any new revealations there. I haven't found in any book I've read that ND K was even under the discussion during the visit, and with the documented creation order date it makes the claim presented in the current text WP:OR.


 * I forget to mention that those German mineboats did mine coastal routes between Finnish and Soviet positions, not the Leningrad supply route, and most of those patrols were against Soviet incursions to Finnish rear, all operations hampered by the lack of sufficient air cover. But yes, that detachment can be said to participating in the siege, and that is why it has been included to this article (and why it has been so exclusively, and sometimes quite hotly, discussed by Finnish military historians) for a some time. --Whiskey (talk) 07:35, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your interest in some facts about WWII and collaboration between the Finnish and the Nazi forces around the Siege of Leningrad.

Your interest may be satisfied through serious study of all sides of the conflict, as well as by looking at the map, and using healthy good mind (important thing, rare). The war between Finland and Russia caused much losses for both sides, so they better would not have a war. Many Finnish people, some in medical profession, who survived the siege and defended St. Petersburg (Leningrad), were heros on that side, and Mannerheim was also a hero in his situation. As a member of the Axis, he had to be careful with both sides, and also watch his back. Mannerheim accepted Hitler's invitation and visited Germany. At the same time, some Finnish officers communicated directly to the Nazis, behind Mannerheim's back.

Meeting between Hitler and Mannerheim ended on the situation than Finnish side would not provide any help to Leningrad, while passively helping the Nazis by blocking the access to besieged Leningrad from the North and North-East, thus cutting the food supplies to starving citizens. The Hitler-Mannerheim meeting was not one-on-one, both came to the meeting with their staff, advisers, and officers of all ranks. Hitler - Mannerheim meeting served as the reason for officers on both sides at all-levels of command to communicate their military plans and details with their allies in the Axis. When Hitler made trips outside of Germany - many thousands of men in the armed forces and also in various Embassies and missions were working for him before, during, and after the meeting. Mannerheim deserves much respect for his resistance to the Nazis demands to attack Leningrad from the North. But there were others, including some Russians, who collaborated with the Nazis for personal profits. The end was 'partially' summarized at the Nuremberg trial.

Museum of the siege in St. Petersburg is a shocking place, many facts and photos are shown in one building, but the entire city was like that in 1941 - 1944. Other side of the siege, about parents cutting parts of their bodies to feed their starving children, because all food supplies were blocked, those facts are well known. Today you can meet and learn from Leningrad survivors who only survived eating their dead relatives. It was a sad part of human history, the history we need to know, and never repeat again. Finland had a good army standing in the northern suburbs of St. Petersburg for 2,5 years, and at the same time over one million civilians were let die. Steve shelok  honov  02:11, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Finally:

All that history and conflicts were not our faults. Our faults may start now if we do not allow all sides to be heard with patience and enough time to see the big picture and to allow for correction of some inevitable mistakes. Information in articles must be equally translated in all languages, that is why I came to Wikipedia. I was interpreting for cultural and business delegations for years and witnessed how two or three sides were gradually coming to clear and peaceful understanding after several rounds of learning about each others truth that was previously misunderstood. Thoughtful people can work it out today by working, not fighting. Regards. Steve shelok  honov  04:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * What is the point of all this? Steve, this article is supposed to be about a military operation, a siege. Dumping a whole lot of Soviet-era politico-emotional content here is not the thing to do. There need to be other articles to record this, like Leningrad section on WWII damage and suffering of its population, and Museums of Leningrad sections also. I kid you not, you have to separate the military part of the page (as part of the Project content guidelines) form the rest and either create separate sections or better still separate pages.--  mrg3105mrg3105 05:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Sides of the conflict and their actions
Its supposed to be a section title. It needs to be SHORT. The shorted way, not from a Soviet book, is Opposing forces. Short and sweet.

Now there were Soviet operations that preceded the siege, Whermacht operations to try and prevent Red Army forming effective defense, creation of the siege defenses, and Wehrmacht attempts to breach them The there were the attempts to relive the siege and the final liberating counteroffensive. Where is all that in your article? Where are the orders of battle? Where are the strategies and tactics of the besiegers and the besieged? Please, I would really like to work with you, and not against you, but your editing style is very inflexible and does not actually deal with the subject. This is supposed to be an encyclopaedia, not a book so try and keep to essential facts and keep it short.--  mrg3105mrg3105 13:22, 28 December 2007 (UTC) And enough with the 'wee edits', I think we know you are not a Scot ;O)--  mrg3105mrg3105 13:23, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * So, was the Red Army actually there, or did the civilians did it all? You devoted a HUGE amount of content to Finland which did not even participate, but don't even have a section, never mind OOB for the Red Army!--  mrg3105mrg3105 01:37, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Article structure
Ok Steve. I can see that you are just a stubborn person who will not listen. Please look at this structure you currently have:

'''Its too long, too one-sided, too lacking in military aspect, too fractured and lacking continuity. Why TWO timelines?!'''

Consider this:

A. Overview A. 1 Strategic importance A. 2 Political importance A. 3 Cultural importance B. Wehrmacht 1941 planning C. Red Army defensive battles C.1 Leningrad defensive operation C 1.1. C 1.2 C 1.3 D. Wehrmacht offensive falters E. Siege commences E 1 Opposing Forces E 1.1 Wehrmacht and its allies E 1.2 Red Army E 1.3 Leningrad defensive region (UR) F. Effect of siege on population 1942-1943 F 1 Civilian participation in defence F 2 Road of Life F 3 Evacuation of the city F 4 Starvation F 5 Destruction of the city G. Relief attempts in 1943 H. Liberating counteroffensive in 1944 I. Assessment of the siege Redirect to "Rebuilding Leningrad" article Sources and references See also What do you think?--  mrg3105mrg3105 13:44, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

If you think I'm wrong, consider this structure from a Russian site:

Битва за Ленинград 1941-1944 г.

Предистория

Оборона на подступах

Бои в 1941-1943 гг.

Прорыв блокады

Наступление 1944 г.

Битва за Ленинград - это совокупность оборонительных и наступательных операций советских войск в Великой Отечественной войне, проведенных с 10.07.41 по 09.08.44 на северо-западном стратегическом направлении, с целью обороны Ленинграда и разгрома немецкой группы армий "Север" и финских войск, расположенных между Онежским и Ладожским озерами и на Карельском перешейке.

Оборона на дальних и ближних подступах

* Оборона по. Ханко (22.06.41-02.12.41)

* Бои на финском фронте

* Контрудар под Сольцами (14-17.07.41)

* Оборона Эстонии

* Таллинская оборона (5-28.08.41)

* Наступательная операция Северо-Западного фронта в районе Старой Руссы (12-14.08.41)

* Окружение Ленинграда с востока

* Синявские операции (19-26.09.41)

* Оборона моонзунских островов (07.09.41-22.10.41)

Боевые действия советских войск с октября 1941 по 12.01.1943

* Мгинская операция

* Тихвинская оборонительная операция (16.10.41-18.11.41)

* Синявская операция (20-28.10.41)

* Тихвинская наступательная операция (10.11.41-30.12.41)

* Любанская операция

* Демянская операция (07.01.42-20.05.42)

* Синявская наступательная операция (19.08.42-10.10.42)

Прорыв блокады Ленинграда и боевые действия сов. войск в 1943

* Прорыв блокады Ленинграда

Наступление сов. войск на северо-западном направлении в 1944 г., полное снятие блокады Ленинграда

* Ленинградско-Новгородская операция (14.01.44-01.03.44)

* Красносельско-Ропшинская операция (14.01.44-30.01.44)

* Новгородско-Лужская наступательная операция (14.01.44-15.02.44)

* Выборско-Петрозаводская операция (10.06.44-09.08.44)

* Выборская операция (10-20.06.44)

* Свирско-Петрозаводская операция (21.06.44-09.08.44)

* Моонзунская операция (27.09.44-24.11.44)

Пожалуйсто не будь таким упрямым и послушай добрых советов :O)--  mrg3105mrg3105 14:10, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, I would propose a simpler structure still.

The subject is so large from a military POV that it will be difficult to cram all the information on it into one article that is still readable and manageable without the effect on civilians also included. 1. Pre-siege events 2. Defence on the approaches to Leningrad 3. Battles of 1941-1943 4. Relief of the siege 5. Red Army offensive of 1944

The subsections of the above would include details of smaller military operations.

I think the civilian and military aspects of the siege need to be kept separate. As a separate article I would propose a link to the Ice Road. The reason I call it the Ice Road and not the Road of Life is because in the Wikipedia sense the road of life is too ambiguous, and in reality Ice Road is the actual description of the supply route that kept the Leningrad siege going. All the misery of the city's population is really linked to the road, and so the vast bulk of current content can be expressed there.

The rationale for the two articles is that from the reader perspective you do not want to be switching attention between civilian and military aspects of the siege. Its hard to feel compassion and disgust while trying to fathom why and how Army X conducted a flank attack against division Y.

All the post-siege content is really related to the city itself and not the siege operations. They really do belong in the Leningrad article under Post-war recovery section.

Comments, thoughts, suggestions everyone--  mrg3105mrg3105 22:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)?


 * Disagree for many reasons. Real Siege of Leningrad is very different from this small pictures. Presentation of this and other articles in all languages may eventually undergo evolution over years. Historic documents, facts, and secret orders are only beginning to come out before public eyes. Wait till more historians come to Wikipedia, or else - knol and other encyclopedic alternatives may soon show their versions, albeit still all facts are on the original grounds at locations in St. Petersburg. Steve  shelok  honov  22:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The real siege is a military operation. Yes there are necessarily civilian facets to sieges, and no one is denying this, but the over-riding subject of the operation was a military one with strategic significances. Far from being a small picture that I am trying to get you to 'see', there is a larger strategic and operational picture composed of the operations on 'both' sides before, during and after the siege lasting over three years. Not only does your article not cover these, you have reduced them to a time line entries, and not even that.

Wikipedia is not a repository of all human knowledge, at least that is not its current policy or capabilities. The point of the encyclopaedia in general is to provide succinct and authoritative introduction to the subjects.

Whatever the future holds for research on the Siege of Leningrad we can't really speculate on, and have to work with what we have, which is plenty. In fact there is so much that the article needs to be split as happens to many articles that are too large for the content. There were distinct military and civilian aspects to the event. Both need their adequate treatment, but overwhelmingly the actual Siege of Leningrad was an active military operation with the civilians being unwilling passive participants (except where they were participating in para-military roles).

Now Steve, please lets work together and help each other with both articles instead of getting into edit conflicts.--  mrg3105mrg3105 22:52, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Combatants box
What the?!!

Are you people hell bent on documenting every non-German speaking unit? The box is supposed to give a very brief overview of the opposing sides, not the fact that an Italian group was present for a few months! And the Spanish division. What about the rest of the WEHRMACHT units and commanders?! You list a Spanish divisional commander along with a Corps commander but there is no OOB for EITHER side?! Did Zhukov command during the entire siege? How much input did Mannerheim have into the conduct of the siege? Probably only listed because you don't know which Finnish naval officer commanded those 20 boats ;o)

Come on people, lets get real about this article. Its not supposed to be a national promotion exercise but an informative unbiased piece about a military operation--  mrg3105mrg3105 13:55, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

The siege of Leningrad was one of the LARGEST MILITARY OPERAIONS in WWII. It was also one of the longest and most complex maze of battles and chain events in logistics, attacks and counterattacks leaving 1,5 million dead, and with major civilian participation in its battles including women and children. "Nevsky pyatachok" is known as one the deadliest spots on Earth with 300 thousand killed within 12 km. SOME SURVIVORS ARE STILL ALIVE AND SPEAKING in the USA, in Russia, in Finland, and in Germany. A met a survivor of the Siege of Leningrad in West Berlin, in 1989. German government takes good care of survivors and their numerous archives. In the memory of all victims and survivors, we shall help Wikipedia to be better. Steve shelok  honov  22:58, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * What does all this have to do with the Combatants box?--  mrg3105mrg3105 23:04, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

International flotilla
In regards to the Italian flotilla, here is what the Soviet sources have to say about it: Ладожская военная флотилия вела боевые действия против созданной в 1942 г. на Ладожском озере германо-итало-финской флотилии (21 десантная баржа, 8 десантных катеров, канонерская лодка, 6 сторожевых и 5 торпедных катеров, 60 катеров связи). Корабли флотилии при поддержке авиации наносили удары по базе противника в бухте Саунасари и его коммуникациям. 22 октября 1942 г. флотилия отразила попытку противника высадить десант на о. Сухо. Во время боя противник потерял 19 из 23 своих кораблей, 12 самолетов.

Ladoga military flotilla conducted combat against the Ladoga lake Germane-Italian- Finnish flotilla (composition 21 landing barges, 8 assault motorboats, gunboat, 6 patrol and 5 PT boats, 60 communication launches) created in 1942. The vessels of flotilla with the support of aviation delivered strikes on the enemy base in Saunasari bay and their communications. On October 22, 1942. the flotilla repulsed an attempt by the enemy to land a landing force on the Sukho Island. During the battle the enemy lost 19 of its 23 vessels, and 12 aircraft.

It seems tha this was the one and only attempt to interdict the Soviet supply line into the city. Shortly after the entire Italian contingent was withdrawn and a much smaller Finnish one took over the vessels for a short time, but never to seriously threaten the Ice Road in the winter of 1942/43. --  mrg3105mrg3105 14:59, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Disagree for many reasons. Real Siege of Leningrad is very different from this small pictures. Presentation of this and other articles in all languages may eventually undergo evolution over years. Historic documents, facts, and secret orders are only beginning to come out before public eyes. Wait till more historians come to Wikipedia, or else - knol and other encyclopedic alternatives may soon show their versions, albeit still all facts are on the original grounds at locations in St. Petersburg. Steve shelok  honov  22:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

By Jatkosodan pikkujättiläinen:

Naval Detachment K (komentajakapteeni Kalervo Kijanen):
 * 12.Squadriglia Mas :4 Italian MAS MTBs (capitano di corvetta Giuseppe Bianchini),
 * MTV Sisu Finnish motorized gunboat (former WWI era Italian MTB without torpedos),
 * German 4 Küstenminenboot (Coastal Mine Boats) (Oberliutenant Reymann) (Kriegsmarine)

Einsatzstab Fähre Ost (Lt.Col Siebel):
 * German 21 heavy battlerafts/barges (armed with 88mm AA guns) (Luftwaffe, Luftflotte 1)
 * German 9 boats (type not specified, transport boats(?)) (Luftwaffe, Luftflotte 1)

Italian boat torpedoed one gunboat near Toserov August 15 and one barge near Sukho Island August 27. German barges sunk one patrol boat October 9. At the battle of Sukho Island October 22 both Germans and Italians participated with total of 24 vessels and Germans lost 4 barges and one boat. --Whiskey (talk) 21:16, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi Whiskey (though I prefer Cognac myself ;o))


 * As we well know there are conflicting claims as to the damage and casualties inflicted from both sides. My point is that this was a very minor part of the siege. In fact its proper place is probably in the article that deals with the Ice Road (Road of Life). However I am gratified to know that the Finnish contribution of one gunboat is duly noted as is the Italian Axis contribution of four gunboats! ;O) Were the German craft a part of the Heer or the Kriegsmarine? I really have nothn on them aside from a snippet that says there were German 'naval' units present in the AG Nord AO -- <font face="Edwardian Script ITC" size="5"> mrg3105mrg3105  21:38, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Added the information above. I agree that this information is better presented either in the Ice Road or Naval Detachment K articles. --Whiskey (talk) 21:51, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Disagree for many reasons. Real Siege of Leningrad is very different from this small pictures. Presentation of this and other articles in all languages may eventually undergo evolution over years. Historic documents, facts, and secret orders are only beginning to come out before public eyes. Wait till more historians come to Wikipedia, or else - knol and other encyclopedic alternatives may soon show their versions, albeit still all facts are on the original grounds at locations in St. Petersburg. Steve shelok  honov  22:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

One of the largest military operations in WWII with massive participation of women and children in the 2-year battle against the Nazis

 * To realize the true magnitude of the Siege of Leningrad, please complete this educational studies:

1. Visit several important sources at museums in St. Petersburg (Museum of Blokada, History Museum of the city St. Petersburg, Military Museum at Arsenal, Piskarevskoye Memorial Cemetery, and Road of Life) then see their websites to realize that internet is way behind in presenting truth about the big reality.

2. Study numerous maps of Nazis and Finnish officers among other souces at several libraries (Publichka on the Nevsky, Academy of Sciences on V.O., and University library). This learning may help. Mannerheim was educated about such facts that many thousands of citizens in St. Petersburg were ethnic Finns and Karelians. Meet the survivors on the other side while they are still alive.

3. During your studies at St. Petersburg libraries, read Russian internet sources about the siege, and several Russian articles related to the siege in Wikipedia. Good articles, but too small to cover the huge reality. Visit St. Petersburg today to make yourself better informed. It'll be many years from now when all libraries with all sources may become available on the web.

4. Top-secret operations, such as "Eis Stoß" (Ice stoss) are not reflected on the web, albeit in reality Goering made sure that it killed tens of thousands. See all the evidence on locations in St. Petersburg - that is the main source of truth.

5. Find numerous remains of victims of the siege all over St. Petersburg and suburbs. There are tens of thousands of remains yet to be identified and buried properly. When you find remains - report to authorities, preserve all details of ammunition and weapons, be careful - there are still many unexploded shells and land-mines around St. Petersburg.

6. You are welcome to participate in burial ceremonies of many unknown remains, like it is done everywhere in the world.

The Siege of Leningrad was one of the largest military operations in WWII. It was also one of the longest and most complex maze of battles and chain events in logistics, attacks and counterattacks leaving 1,5 million dead, and with major civilian participation in its battles including women and children.

Nevsky pyatachok is known as one the deadliest spots on Earth with 300 thousand killed within less then one km.

SOME SURVIVORS ARE STILL ALIVE AND SPEAKING in the USA, in Russia, in Finland, and in Germany. A met a survivor of the Siege of Leningrad in West Berlin, in 1989. German government takes good care of survivors and their numerous archives. In the memory of all victims and survivors, we shall help make Wikipedia better. Steve shelok  honov  23:30, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

PS: Some survivors of the siege were my patients in the 70s and 80s, and I'm still talking to a few survivors on the phone from my home here in LA. I am also translating from Russian articles with their Russian sources, to help make Wikipedia better. Steve shelok  honov  23:30, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Eh, the point was to examine the level of Finnish contribution to and participation in the siege. --Illythr (talk) 00:44, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Merd, I just realised WE ARE NOT ON THE SAME PAGE!!!
 * Steven....
 * There are several aspects to editing BEFORE you get to content:


 * 1. Place of the article within the larger scope of the Project it is a part of (see Project coordinators).


 * 2. Authoring the content


 * 3. Editing collaboration


 * 4. Structure of the content


 * 5. Layout of the content


 * 6. Relevance of the content


 * 7. redlink management


 * 8. Sources and references


 * 9. Grade classification and development to A grade


 * 10. Peer review and development to FA grade

I can assure you that this is not going to work.
 * You Steven have decided to skip all these and having decided on what an FA article should look like, are doing your own thing.

PS. Please don't give me any more of your history lessons, ok. -- <font face="Edwardian Script ITC" size="5"> mrg3105mrg3105 00:09, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

'''Dear Users,

'''Thank you for your exemplary politeness, generosity and openness demonstrating your highly intellectual and deeply knowledgeable ways. Your finesse and sophistication are as important as wide range and clear vision of the big picture, and as valuable as the Knowledge itself. Please continue collaboration and additions to this milieu of Truth.

'''Now aspects:

'''1. Full Knowledge about the Siege of Leningrad.

'''Without deep Knowledge one becomes a slave of manipulation, and never on the same page with reality.

'''That's why many find history lessons useful.

'''All hard facts are there on the original location of the siege, in St. Petersburg and suburbs, north and south, on the shores and under the waters of Neva river and Lake Ladoga. The area in still full of bones, skulls, blood, and other remains, there are still many land-mines and unexploded air-bombs and artillery shells all over the suburbs of St. Petersburg. Nazi airplanes are still found in that part of Russia. It was a massive and tragic battle, with hundreds of thousands of women and children fighting for their homes for 2 years under fire. Very small fraction of true history and reality is available on the web.

'''Let's make the article adequate to the magnitude of human tragedy of the siege, the longest and deadliest battle in WW2. Let's respect millions of victims and survivors, and let's make a comprehensive work for Wikipedia, honoring every diligent effort and solid research. Steve shelok  honov  19:26, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

NB!: Please do not delete any messages on this page and my user page. Steve shelok  honov  19:26, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

The message you deleted is now restored here: "Real Siege of Leningrad is very different from this small pictures. Presentation of this and other articles in all languages may eventually undergo evolution over years. Historic documents, facts, and secret orders are only beginning to come out before public eyes. Wait till more historians come to Wikipedia, or else - knol and other encyclopedic alternatives may soon show their versions, albeit still all facts are on the original grounds at locations in St. Petersburg." Steve shelok  honov  20:22, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * From <font color="AE1C28">MilHistProject coordinator : Guys, let's try to work together nicely, okay? :-)
 * FWIW, the list-form timeline may be suitable as an outline for an article, but it would prevent it from achieving featured article status if left in place. Really, you only need one narrative; the content of the timeline should be integrated into the prose description of the siege, not separate from it. Kirill 17:37, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Section on Finland
Please read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Gustaf_Emil_Mannerheim#An_officer_in_the_Imperial_Russian_Army before you make statements on Finland's intentions.-- <font face="Edwardian Script ITC" size="5"> mrg3105mrg3105 03:56, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Serious doubts about Steve's edits
I'm sorry to put this forward this way, but unfortunately I have no other idea how to proceed more civilized. I have tried to point out to Steve to mention his sources, and I'm glad that he has started to adding them to the text. Unfortunately for some reason he hasn't answered some specific question raised about his edits in no other way than general answer to visit museums in St. Petersburg etc. in several pages.

But eventhough it is nice to have his sources available, his usage of his sources has created goosebumps to my skin. Two examples:

1) In overview: In June 1942 Hitler had a meeting with Carl Gustaf Mannerheim in Finland, resulting in formation of a special Naval Detachment K under the Finnish operative command that had clashes against Leningrad supply route on southern Ladoga with the assistance of German and Italian naval forces.[3][4] The given sources are Jatkosodan pikkujättiläinen and Tidskrift i Sjöväsendet. I checked Jatkosodan pikkujättiläinen and there was not a thing about the Naval Detachment K during the Hitler's visit to Mannerheim's birthday. On the contrary, it gave May 17 as a day when Mannerheim ordered the formation of Naval Detachment K, almost three weeks earlier than Hitler's visit! In this text, Steve has taken two sourced facts "Hitler visited Mannerheim June 1942" and "Naval Detachment K with Finnish, German and Italian forces was created and it operated against Leningrad supply route" and created two fictionary claims: "Hitler's visit was a meeting where operations were planned" and "The creation of the Naval Detachment K was a result of this meeting", which are not supported but simply refuted by the given source!

2) The text of the picture in chapter "Finland and Nazi Germany" states: Luftwaffe airplanes returning to Finland after attack on besieged Leningrad. Original photo is at the Museum of the city of St. Petersburg Simply looking the picture reveals that they are Finnish planes with Finnish national markings. The picture is located in Wikimedia commons, where the planes are correctly notified as Finnish Fokker D.XXIs. As Leningrad was outside of FAF operating area (for those who are interested, the border between Finnish and German operating areas at Karelian Isthmus did go over the Finnish frontline. This fact also contributed to the Soviet successful surprise June 9, 1944, as there was no Finnish planes which could have detected Soviet preparations.) Also the copyright is Finnish public Domain, so it is extremely unlikely that some Leningrad museum has the original. It is certainly possible that they can have a copy of the picture. So, properly documented picture is twisted unrecognizable with blatant lies in the text in article!

If these two examples present the way how Steve handles the sources, I'm seriously worried. Could someone who has the Russian books Steve has given check that they really claim what he claims them to do? And could they be crosschecked from other books? I checked the Russian article about the siege, and it is full of unconfirmed claims. It seems that I have to add Facts here also. --Whiskey (talk) 00:14, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Its difficult to verify Steve's sources because Platonov book is 45 years old, and likely found only in Russian libraries. However if it is anything like any other book on the subject published during the Soviet era, it is highly likely to be full of dat minefields (see Glantz warning on use of Soviet sources). The Finland and Siege of Leningrad 1941 - 1944. By Dr. Nikolai Baryshnikov is a new book, but its relevance as the title suggests is dubious. Finland had virtually no part to play in the siege (though not in the overall operations in the region of course). Even including the sole Finnish unit in the article is far from warranted since it played almost no part in the combat operations, Wehrmacht planning or the outcome of the siege. Aside from that Steve is using only one other book on medics' role in the siege that I can see. Important as it was, this is as irrelevant and lopsided a treatment of a military operation as it can get.--<font color="#21468B"><font face="Edwardian Script ITC" size="5"> mrg3105mrg3105 01:19, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Well one thing that is not difficult to check is the source added by Steve (a Helsingin Sanomat article about the secret taping of Hitler's visit). It does not mention any forming of the Ladoga flotilla, neither does Hitler himself. Part of the English transcript of Hitler's and Mannerheim's dialogue can be found here (it is actually the part after Mannerheim's thank you speach to Hitler) and the audio file can be found here (third link beneath the picture). --MoRsE (talk) 01:32, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe Steve is unaware of the wealth of Russian sources on the siege available online? There are lots of sources, all on one server, with a sampling of just the first 4 pages of the search below. They are from a cross-section of military and civilian, Soviet and German participants, with the military ranging from a seaman to Zhukov, so no need to visit museums or do Steve's lessons.

http://militera.lib.ru/h/kovalchuk_vm/

http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/panteleev_ua2/03.html

http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/vasilevsky/13.html

http://militera.lib.ru/db/luknitsky_pn/

http://militera.lib.ru/h/leningrad/01.html

http://militera.lib.ru/bio/karpov/29.html

http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/zhukov1/13.html

http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/voronov/06.html

http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/kuznetsov2/18.html

http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/korolkevich_av/11.html

http://militera.lib.ru/memo/german/manstein/10.html

http://militera.lib.ru/h/dvoryanski_yaroshenko/01.html

http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/cherokov_bs/index.html

http://militera.lib.ru/h/inozemtsev/index.html

http://militera.lib.ru/db/buff_w/pre.html

http://militera.lib.ru/db/trifonov_vi/index.html

http://militera.lib.ru/memo/german/bidermann_gh/07.html

http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/meretskov/29.html

http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/emelyanenko/01.html

http://militera.lib.ru/bio/commanders1/12.html

http://militera.lib.ru/research/meltyukhov/11.html

http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/nikulin_uv/07.html

http://militera.lib.ru/h/hoth/08.html

http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/fedyuninsky/08.html

http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/mayorov/03.html

--<font color="#21468B"><font face="Edwardian Script ITC" size="5"> mrg3105mrg3105 01:48, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Infant deaths during the siege of Leningrad
Infant mortality was 75% of all newborn children during the siege. Pregnant women suffered from starvation and severe stress, had more complications at birth. Hospitals were out of water and power because of constant air-bombing and artillery shelling of the city. Steve shelok  honov  18:34, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Hitler's visit to Finland in June 1942
Hitler and Field Marshal Wilhelm Keitel with their staff visited Mannrheim and Ryti in Finland. Only a few minutes were recorded out of 5 hours of talks. Hard to now all the secrets discussed by tens of generals during 5 hours. They were talking face to face about the ongoing war operations. ,

The siege continued after Hitler - Mannerheim meeting, bombardments became worse, and suffering of civilians in Leningrad lasted for another year-and-a-half. Steve shelok  honov  19:53, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Finland and Nazi Germany
The Nazis occupied southern suburbs of St. Petersburg getting as close as 4 km south of the Kirov Plant and 16 km south of the Hermitage. They were stopped there, but continued massive artillery bombardments of the Historic Centre of Saint Petersburg and Related Groups of Monuments from the distance of 16 km from the Hermitage. The Italian military took Strelna suburb together with Germans, together they also occupied suburban towns of Peterhof, Tsarskoye Selo - Pushkin - Pavlovsk, Gatchina, Krasnoye Selo, and Oranienbaum among other suburbs of St. Petersburg.

The Finnish forces took northern suburbs of St. Petersburg: Sestroretsk, Komarovo, Zelenogorsk, Beloostrov and other communities of Kurortny District of St. Petersburg city. Finnish forces were 34 km from the Historic Centre of Saint Petersburg and Related Groups of Monuments. Finnish newspaper Helsingin Sanomat on September 9, 1941 wrote: "St. Petersburg is a danger to Finland." On September 11, 1941, president Ryti informed German Ambassador in Helsinki that: "Neva River should be the border of Finland... after liquidation of St. Petersburg." (Sources: Baryshnikov Nikolai: Finland and the Siege of Leningrad 1941-1944, Museum of the city St. Petersburg, Military-Topographic Directorate, maps No. 194, 196, Officer's Atlas. General Staff USSR. 1947. Атлас Офицера. Генеральный штаб вооруженных сил ССР. М., Военно-топографическоее управление,- 1947. Листы 194, 196 )

Finland and Nazi Germany were co-belligerent powers among Axis Powers in WWII. In June 1942, during the siege of Leningrad, Hitler and his generals had a meeting with Carl Gustaf Mannerheim and Ryti in Finland. ,

Special Naval Detachment K under the Finnish operative command had clashes against Leningrad supply route on southern Ladoga with the assistance of German and Italian naval forces.

Knowing tragic mistakes of the past helps to be free of denial, and become true friends. Steve shelok  honov  19:08, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * This is ridiculous! The atlas you site is from 1947. The map, http://dp60.narod.ru/image/maps/332_B.jpg doesn't even give Wehrmacht troops operating from Finland! Which Finnish units had entered the Leningrad suburbs? Do you actually have the Baryshnikov book? The references point to a REVIEW of the book, where as they MUST quote the pages! The bulk of the fighting came from the 18th Wehrmacht Army sector. Please read here http://www.aroundspb.ru/finnish/saveljev/war1941.php --<font color="#21468B"><font face="Edwardian Script ITC" size="5"> mrg3105mrg3105 23:59, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Article size
Please note that the article is now larger then 60kb, and is yet to start talking about the military operations of the siege.

If you consult http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:LIMIT#A_rule_of_thumb, you will find the following section

A rule of thumb

Some useful rules of thumb for splitting articles, and combining small pages (see above for what to exclude in size calculations):

Prose size[1] 	What to do

> 100 KB 	Almost certainly should be divided up

> 60 KB 	Probably should be divided (although the scope of a topic can sometimes justify the added reading time)

> 40 KB 	May eventually need to be divided (likelihood goes up with size)

< 30 KB 	Length alone does not justify division

< 1 KB 	If an article or list has remained this size for over a couple of months, consider combining it with a related page. Alternatively, why not fix it by adding more info? See Wikipedia:Stub. If it's an important article that's just too short, put it under Article Creation and Improvement Drive, a project to improve stubs or nonexistent articles.

--<font color="#21468B"><font face="Edwardian Script ITC" size="5"> mrg3105mrg3105 23:18, 31 December 2007 (UTC)