Talk:Siege of Namur (1914)

Siege
Added some details and citations from Tyng, took the red off Donnell. Tyng and Donnell differ in small details so happy to discuss the changes if desired.Keith-264 (talk) 13:33, 13 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I've just realised that this is a new page, rather than one I had overlooked because it wasn't in a campaign box. Sorry if I've jumped the gun.Keith-264 (talk) 13:33, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

CE
Removed paragraph on declarations of war, after suggestions of superfluity.Keith-264 (talk) 13:03, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Andenne incident
Hello, I think the mention of the Andenne incident in the text is not quite accurate and a bit odd.

You have got the sentence:
 * The division [1st Guard Reserve] was to cross the river at Andenne but "Belgian civilians" delayed the passage in street fighting.

This is followed by a lengthy note which tries to explain the general context of "coercive measures" and atrocities/cruelties in the Belgium war, but does not mention the Andenne incident itself at all.

It was one of the mayor incidents of this kind in Belgium in August 1914 with more than 260 civilians shot or killed otherwise (partly with axes and bayonets) by the German invaders.
 * First I think it is not necessary here to explain these kind of incidents in such a general way (there should be another article to be linked at).
 * Secondly, I think there *should* be a more precise and explicit mention of the Andenne and Seilles incidents which belong to the direct pre-history of the siege.
 * Third, the mention of "street fighting" in the text is highly misleading or I would say wrong. Andenne is one of the incidents rather clearly provoked by panic and wrong expectations and perceptions on the German side. There were about 5 Germans killed (1 rifleman of Guard Reserve Rifle Batallion, the unit mostly involved with the killings, and some Pioneers, and one or two cavalry-men wounded the night before, probably in fightings with Belgium forces withdrawing after destroying the bridge). The German deaths are practically sure to be victims of own ("friendly") "panic" fire during the panic night in the streets of Andenne. There was definitely no "street fighting" in Andenne. Germans thought that there was shooting with hunting rifles from some windows and roofs, a perception which turns out to be very improbable in this case, at least for Andenne (for Seilles on the other side of the river, reports are more convincing and coinciding). Many Germans were drunk, partly because Seilles had a huge distillery store.
 * The Andenne case was treated in court in Leipzig in 1920, where German witnesses confirmed that all (!) civilians killed during that night and on the next day were innocent. Nevertheless, the two surviving commanding officers involved (the commander of 28th Pioneers, an ex-colonial officer in Kamerun, and the commander of the Guard Reserve Rifle Batallion) were not brought to trial, because they sucessfully claimed to have followed the orders given by General v.Gallwitz about "coercive measures" on August 16th. Also, the Judges (like all Germans of that time) did not believe that there was no shooting by Belgian civilians.

For an English record see Horne/Kramer, pp. 30 to 35, 98 to 100, passim.. There are some German accounts, too, esp. Petri/Schöller, Zur Bereinigung des Franktireurproblems vom August 1914 (1961) and for the trial at Leipzig Gerhard Hankel, Die Leipziger Prozesse (2003), 212 to 216. Also, there are many Belgian web sources describing the incidents.--Jordi (talk) 13:20, 1 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Greetings Jordi, we can only describe what the sources say so curious omissions usually mean that the writer lacks sources. If you can improve the article with yours, so much the better. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 13:22, 1 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Greetings to you and thank you, I think my English is not good enough to write in the article myself. Even though, the main source available is in English (Horne/Kramer) and was even mentioned in the article before my comments, so I don't think it is a problem to find or quote the right source. I also don't think that it makes sense to write an extended account about these incidents here in this article, only to mention it shortly and remove the "street fighting" (which is contemporary German POV from the decades after WWI).--Jordi (talk) 13:34, 1 November 2016 (UTC)