Talk:Siege of Novara (1495)

Voice organization

 * @Nederlandse Leeuw

I've moved everything here, but I leave it up to you to summarize what's left in the main entry on war
 * Thank you, well done! I've done some edits last night, I'll add more today. Here's a list of books I found that we might use as sources. Some are only brief. Many are about attempts to reconstruct the spread of syphilis since it was apparently first documented to have infected French troops at Naples in February 1495 (e.g. some speculate whether Ludovico Sforza had a fever, malaria or syphilis; this might help explain why Beatrice took such an important role during his apparent illness). Others are about troop numbers, politics, culture etc.


 * Primary sources (1495–1600)

Memoirs of Philippe de Commines (1524)

https://books.google.com/books?id=CgTXoFWBqFMC&pg=PR6 Bembo, History of Venice (1551) 2007


 * Secondary sources (1600–1950)

https://books.google.com/books?id=zUVcAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA6 Anton Nunez Ribeiro-Sanchez 1751

https://books.google.com/books?id=bCU2AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA364 Francesco Guicciardini 1753 https://books.google.com/books?id=IWbcDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA108 2020 edition

https://books.google.com/books?id=IN30ca-bq5cC&pg=PA390 Eyre Evans Crowe 1860

https://books.google.com/books?id=kRMLAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA430 Charles Creighton 1891 https://books.google.com/books?id=kNVhEAAAQBAJ&pg=PT258 2020 reprint

https://books.google.com/books?id=tr4NAAAAIAAJ Beatrice D'Este, Duchess of Milan, 1475-1497: A Study of the Renaissance Julia Mary Cartwright Ady 1899

https://books.google.com/books?id=shnkQXol0e0C&pg=PT104 Ferdinand Gregorovius (1908) 2007 https://books.google.com/books?id=9MbgDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA84 Ferdinand Gregorovius (1908) 2020


 * Tertiary sources (1950–present)

https://books.google.com/books?id=pE_CAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA116 Ross King 2012

https://books.google.com/books?id=OwN6DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA121 Stephen D. Bowd 2018

https://books.google.com/books?id=Hk8IEAAAQBAJ&pg=PT293 Kaufmann & Kaufmann 2019

https://books.google.com/books?id=yMXLDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA85 Carolyn James 2020

https://books.google.com/books?id=M90NEAAAQBAJ&pg=PT93 Idan Sherer 2021

https://books.google.com/books?id=0-xDEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA160 Iwo Amelung, Bertram Schefold 2021

Ciao, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 06:52, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Italian historians speculate that Ludovico suffered a stroke. The problem is that he recovered very quickly from having a stroke and had no permanent damage. Maybe it was a transient ischemic attack or maybe he had nothing at all, since only two chroniclers say that he was sick, while the others simply say that he was afraid, but that he continued to issue the measures anyway. The situation is by no means clear. What is clear is that Beatrice arrived at the camp on June 27 to cheer on her captain and supervise the order, because this is what Marin Sanudo says. But the sentence with which she introduces the speech is an anacoluto and it is not clear if he forgot to put a point or if it was Ludovico who sent his wife on the field in his place. However Sanudo receives this information from the letters of Bernardo Contarini, who was with Beatrice at the camp. I strongly doubt that Ludovico had contracted syphilis, because no one ever mentioned it and if that had been the case, Beatrice would have contracted it too, otherwise she would no longer have to have children, but the following year she was pregnant again. Beaest (talk) 07:03, 2 June 2022 (UTC)


 * @Nederlandse LeeuwYou're doing a great job with your voice. But does the source you used by chance mention the letter from the Mantuan ambassador about civilians who escaped from Novara? Beaest (talk) 11:16, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Yes, Bowd (2018) cites the source in note 41 as 'Grati and Pacini, Carteggio, 130. The ambassador notes that over two thousand men within Novara had fallen ill.' Ciao, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:25, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
 * PS: I suppose that means Carteggio degli oratori mantovani alla corte sforzesca (1450-1500) vol. 15 - 1495-1498. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:26, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
 * PPS: Bowd has virtually the same sentence on p. 110, where he specifies that they were at the mercy of 'fierce Albanian stradiot troops'. Both times, he mentions this incident in the context of similar events and scenarios of Renaissance Italian cities under siege, which frequently resorted to expelling 'useless mouths', especially women who were prostitutes (because their 'sins' might 'bring down the wrath of God on the sinful city'), or foreigners who were suspected of siding with the enemy to betray the city. The remaining native male civilians were to be conscripted into the defenders' army. Ciao, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:40, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
 * @Nederlandse Leeuw Thank you! I found the ambassador's letter with the search engine, perhaps the author of your book was inaccurate: the ambassador says that women and children were stripped, that is, robbed, by the stradiotti (because it was customary to remove all assets from prisoners ) and who therefore were eliminating the besiegers from the camp, who actually gave him alms. I would add this last detail. Beaest (talk) 11:54, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah, I'm glad you were able to find the original text! Could you specify what it says exactly? I'm not sure that I understand what you are saying. The women and children were made prisoners of war of the League army, and were robbed by League stradiots, but also given food at the League army's expense? It was my interpretation that the ambassador implied that some of the women were forced into prostitution in exchange for food by the League stradiots for the remainder of the siege, but that may not be what he was trying to say. Ciao, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:06, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
 * @Nederlandse Leeuw If you want, I'll quote you the text in Italian, but I tried to paraphrase it in English. I don't think they prostituted themselves, perhaps some by choice of her, but professional prostitutes were already in abundance in the camp. I think they were in general mothers with their children and that they lived at the expense of the ducal camp (in fact they were still subjects of Ludovico and Beatrice, they had an interest in not letting them die of misery). I'll give you the quote with my translation:
 * "A li XI del presente quelli de la terra poseno de fora molte persone inutile e povere, et maxime donne cum fanzulli, quale per stradioti, zioè albanesi e greci funno sachezate e spoliate in modo che una gran parte andaseva elimosinando , et per li campi nostri ge era fatto elimosina, che era una compassione a vedere".
 * "On the 11th of the month those of the land (of Novara) put out of the city many useless and poor people and especially women with children, who by the stradiotti, i.e. Albanians and Greeks, were looted and stripped (robbed) so that a large part he went begging, and from our fields alms were given to him, which was a pity to see".
 * Ah, I forgot to add that Giovanni Andrea di Castellar (who fought the siege on the French side) said that they had six thousand victims, mostly German mercenaries, and that their gentlemen survived on a bread for a meal, sometimes they even had a little cheese and water, while his lord (who I believe is the Marquis of Saluzzo) had an egg per meal and wine.
 * https://www.google.it/books/edition/Memoriale_di_Gio_Andrea_Saluzzo_di_Caste/OlGm2SdSV1YC?hl=it&gbpv=1&dq=Memoriale+di+Gio:+Andrea+Saluzzo+di+Castellar+dal+1482+al+1528&printsec=frontcover Beaest (talk) 12:30, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for that quote, translation and your explanation! Yes, I think your interpretation makes more sense than mine, given that they probably already had enough prostitutes in the camp, and these women (with their children) were the Milanese subjects of Ludovico and Beatrice, who probably would not have allowed something to happen by force to their own people who were essentially refugees in need of their lord and lady's protection. The verb spoliare appears to mean 'to strip, denude, despoil, spoliate' (according to Wiktionary), and the meaning 'to denude' (or 'to strip') may have a sexual connotation; in some (con)texts, it means forcing a person to have sex by undressing them (e.g. Ezekiel 16:39 and Ezekiel 23:26 in the Bible), but in this case, that is indeed unlikely.
 * That is interesting. Does Castellar mean 6,000 deaths, or does 'victims' mean a combination of dead, wounded, deserted, missing etc.? If he means deaths, then that figure is a lot higher than the 2,000 deaths during the siege, and hundreds more during the evacuation as reported by King 2012. Perhaps the number 6,000 also includes Novaran civilians and/or Novaran men conscripted into the French army? Otherwise it's difficult to explain why Castellar's death toll is three times that of King. Ciao, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:43, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
 * @Nederlandse Leeuw The verb spoliare is usually used with the sense of stealing. The point is that when they robbed someone, especially soldiers who died on the battlefield, they materially stripped them down to their underwear, because even the clothes could be resold. Honestly, I don't think that in this case they started undressing the women, more likely they will have taken away their belongings and that's it, maybe even their shoes (if they had them), but more than that for some Milanese subjects it seems excessive to me.
 * I read Castellar only quickly, but he speaks of deaths during the siege and he says that they were mostly Germans (De noi morì in la cità più de sei milia persone la più parte de fame et de malatia et la più parte alamani). I have not consulted other sources at the moment to have an accurate account. Among other things, Castellar says that they stayed at the camp for five months, not three (and in fact if we consider the period from June to October they are five months). However he writes these facts many years later, as it is clear, he could be inaccurate in numbers. Beaest (talk) 06:33, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
 * That sounds about right.
 * Thanks for the quote! The "us" that Castellar refers to could include or exclude the civilian population (because he was Italian himself), but the Germans were indeed probably mercenaries in the French army, not German foreign residents (like traders) living in Novara. Perhaps the 2,000 figure of King is based on the Mantuan ambassador's mention that 'over two thousand men within Novara had fallen ill'? Ciao, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 07:48, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
 * @Nederlandse Leeuw Yes, that may be. I wrote 6000 on the Italian page, however we should see what Bernardino Corio, who is the Milanese historian, says. Right now I can't check due to the looming exam. Beaest (talk) 08:13, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Good luck with your exam! Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:31, 5 June 2022 (UTC)