Talk:Siege of Plevna

Old section
Someone should add a link (in the "languages" section) to the Russian version of this article, here it is: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9E%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B0_%D0%9F%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B0. Asharidu (talk) 15:27, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Something's wrong when there are more casualties than troops in the army


 * I believe the Turks were reinforced beyond 30k before the town was fully surrounded TMLutas 21:31, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I found this source which is horribly biased in favor of the turks but it puts the peak end strength @ 45k effectives on the Ottoman side due to reinforcements arriving on the 22nd.

TMLutas 21:37, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Seigo Yamazawa
A Japanese samurai by the name of Seigo Yamazawa was also part of the battle of Plevna and was actually instrumental in the third attack's success. He commanded a platoon of russians of Western Division and without the ability to communicate he instructed them via gestures to only use bayonettes according to the Romanian and Bulgarian sources. According to same sources he was in charge of 100 men and he managed to capture a key position. He was decorated by Romanian and Bulgarian side. He has been oddly forgotten by history with no mentions of his name anywhere in the English world but he is mentioned in Bulgarian, Japanese and sometimes Romanian accounts as being very important for ex https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/Сейго_Ямадзава. For Bulgarians he is so important that every couple of years an official diplomatic mission from Bulgaria is sent to Japan just to visit his grave in Tokyo and thank him. I believe someone should verify this account and add his name in the third battle since is quite unique situation to have a Samurai present and participating in an European war. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.3.17.86 (talk) 01:01, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Other links
http://www.el-soft.com/panorama/en/07_mavzolej.html

Abuse of prisoners and other matters
The following was recently added; I believe it should either be cited for, or removed:

"They were subjected to a death march comparable to the Germans who surrendered at Stalingrad. Only a handful of them returned to Turkey after the war. Turks rarely took prisoners and chose to kill and mutilate any russians they captured."

- Jmabel | Talk 20:13, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Similar problems with the recently added uncited "story" added by Calengurth, who also (without citation) nearly doubled the number of casualties on the Russian/Romanian side. - Jmabel | Talk 06:17, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Category
Khoikhoi reverted the insertion of the Battles involving Romania category. May I ask what was wrong with adding that to the article? Mentatus 09:29, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, now I get it - Petre Bolea became an unperson. Mentatus 11:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

confusion of the dates
Maybe there is a confusion of the dates? On the new calendar the fist attack was 20th July (old calendar: 8th July); the second attack was 30th July (old calendar 18th July); as far as I think the third attack was 11th September (old calendar 30. August). It lasted 3 days and the battle of the left wing is depicted on the Pleven-Panorama-Picture. I cant imagine, that the third battle lasted from 30th August till 11th September - as written in the articles. The Ottomans gave up at 10th December (old calendar 28th November) - Stefan, Germany --84.137.63.195 20:36, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Naming

 * "Siege of Plevna" 2360 hits
 * "Siege of Pleven" 134 (142-8)

Takabeg (talk) 11:57, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * This is not a proper search. These are the actual results:


 * "Siege of Plevna" "English only" "-wiki -wikipedia" 5780 hits
 * "Siege of Pleven" "English only" "-wiki -wikipedia" 6570 hits.
 * Kostja (talk) 08:20, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Move request

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved per discussion below. - GTBacchus(talk) 03:53, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Siege of Pleven → — Google books results: (79.117.198.211 (talk) 11:39, 22 July 2010 (UTC))
 * 2,330 results for Siege of Plevna:
 * 143 results for Siege of Pleven:


 * Oppose Pleven is the current name of the town, Plevna is the historic name. Unlike e.g. Battle of Stalingrad, the historic name is not particularly well known. PatGallacher (talk) 18:30, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment There certainly appears to be a difference between the Google Books result and a general Google web search (see the section above).  Both uses appear to be used in English.  Not so sure a move to the former Turkish name is all that helpful, given that there is a redirect in place anyway.  Skinsmoke (talk) 09:58, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The former Turkish name of Pleven is not Plevna but Plevne. Plevna is historical name of Pleven in English, French etc.... Takabeg (talk) 18:14, 25 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Support The original name of the article is Siege of Plevna, and it was renamed without a consensus by an user on 12 July 2010: (79.117.154.94 (talk) 14:32, 23 July 2010 (UTC))
 * Oppose - Per PatGallacher. Similar disputes have been resolved by keeping the present-day name of the town/place. -- L a v e o l  T 18:09, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment 79.117.154.94 is incorrect.  The original title was Siege of Pleven which was moved to Siege of Plevna on 6 July 2010.  That was reverted on 12 July 2010.  Skinsmoke (talk) 06:22, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Support, as the relevant guideline says; If the place does not exist anymore, or the article deals only with a place in a period when it held a different name, the widely accepted historical English name should be used. We should use the historic name; whether this historic name is more widely known than Stalingrad or Preussisch Eylau really doesn't matter. If the siege is now customarily called Pleven, we should follow suit; but I see no evidence of that. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:18, 24 July 2010 (UTC) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:45, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Support There seems some confusion about the Google searches quoted in the section above.  The Google Books search quoted in this discussion clearly favours Siege of Plevna.  A general Google search in English for the exact phrase Siege of Pleven excluding Wikipedia and Siege of Plevna gives 182 hits.  A search for Siege of Plevna excluding Wikipedia and Siege of Pleven gives 205 hits.  Septentrionalis is right in saying that there is no evidence that it is customarily called the Siege of Pleven, and some evidence to indicate the opposite.  Skinsmoke (talk) 12:41, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Support This article is concerned with history. And this battle is known as the Siege of Plevna in English sources and researches. The result of google books is very clear. Takabeg (talk) 16:59, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Support this is a relatively notable battle, and the name "Siege of Plevna" is long- and well-established in English usage. Plus, as Septentrionalis said, this conforms to policy and the hundreds of articles similarly named. Constantine  ✍  17:16, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Support Plevna is the historic name which should be used, according to WP:NCGN. warrior  4321   17:29, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Support support for the original name "Siege of Plevna" not Siege of pleven!--Kamuran Ötükenli (talk) 13:03, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Support for "Siege of Plevna". This is analogous to the Siege of Constantinople instead of Siege of Istanbul. ---Vikiyazar (talk) 14:52, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Further discussion
Since so many opinions are gathered here, shouldn't Siege of Shkodër be moved to Siege of Scutari for similar reasons? —  AjaxSmack   01:47, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * "Siege of Iskodra" 3 hits < "Siege of Shkodër" 47 hits < "Siege of Scutari" 678 hits. Takabeg (talk) 03:20, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Please do not support or oppose here. This talk page is for the discussion of this article. If you wish to move Siege of Shkodër, then please create a move request. warrior  4321   03:29, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The issue is currently under discussion at Talk:Siege of Shkodër. —   AjaxSmack   22:57, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

PLEVEN. Period. That's the name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.130.15.40 (talk) 23:11, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Prince Carol as 2nd in command and other problems
I ask the editors who revert my version of Prince Carol being 2nd in command not to change this. If we go by rank, the Prince comes after the Tsar. If we go by the Russian-Romanian agreement, which stipulated that Carol would be given command of both armies, then he ought to be listed first. As a compromise, I can agree with him being listed 2nd, since the Tsar outranks him and because Russia was the leader of the war. However, he should certainly not be last. In fact, the article is incomplete, since we are missing the Romanian generals who also had a significant role in the battle, and who might be worthy of being listed also, perhaps before several Russian generals. If there's any argument as to why Prince Carol should be listed last instead of second, I'd like to hear it. I want to point out that Romania joined the conflict in the second battle, so Carol commanded the siege for 3 out of the 4 battles. --Cei Trei (talk) 16:16, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, I reverted you by mistake. I didn't want to revert your edits. Gala should reliase that it was a decisive victory for Russians and this isn't related to the later battles.Philppioi (talk) 14:04, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

A thought
The name of the article should be changed. The Turkish version is referred to as a defence where as the Russian version is referred to as a siege, it should be called a battle or something along those lines. Don’t tell me that most sources call it a siege because the population of Russia and other countries which refer to the battle as a siege significantly outweigh Turkey’s population, naturally there are more sources referring to the battle as a siege. Rodrigo Valequez(🗣) 15:26, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Siege and defense are not mutually exclusive. A siege has an attacker and a defender. Therefore, it was both a siege and a defense for the Turks. The difference is is that the "siege version" is more complete, because it implies a fortress was attacked. But the "defense version" doesn't imply that a fortress was attacked. I would argue that the Turkish version doesn't wish to call it a "siege" because it implies that the defenders had an advantageous fortified position, which they had. The Turkish sources are not denying this, but by not mentioning the battle as a "siege" they are simply omitting it. LordRogalDorn (talk) 16:19, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

There is must be many sources for Strength,Casualties and losses section.
There is must be many sources for Strength,Casualties and losses section. But certainly there is no any sources for casualties. This must be changed. And generally accepted thing that Russians and Romanians have more forces and casualties than Ottomans. Because of the loss of the Shipka Pass Ottomans didnt have many reinforcements.

Capodeturkiye (talk) 19:30, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 April 2021
Add a country on the side of Russia Principality of Montenegro since King Nichola I helped during the russian-turkish war Nikoizgradjana (talk) 20:40, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Information on Montenegrin participation in the Russo-Turkish War is given in the article on the war. There is no mention within the article of participation in this specific part of that war. &#8209;&#8209; El Hef  ( Meep? ) 21:24, 15 April 2021 (UTC)