Talk:Siegfried Line campaign/Archive 1

Renaming: part 1
I did not think that Operation Market Garden was anyting to do with the Battle of the Rhineland which is usully considered to be further south. I'm not sure that this article has the correct name. Philip Baird Shearer 21:48, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * This article describes the Rhineland Campaign. According to official US military documents, as provided in the external links, Market Garden was the first operation of this campaign. Oberiko 02:55, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * "Antwerp, a major port captured during the Northern France Campaign" Last time I looked Antwerp was not in Northern France --Philip Baird Shearer 16:12, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Renaming: part 2
In order to avoid potential confusion, I'd like to change this from the Battle of the Seigfried Line, to something along the lines of Battle to the Seigfried Line.

We can start at approximately the same time as the Rhineland Campaign, and end with the start of the Ardennes offensive. Oberiko 20:16, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Do you end up with a battle through the the Seigfried Line or just one either side? Philip Baird Shearer 22:58, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The battles through and after the Siegfried Line up to the Elbe seems like it could quite easily be one continious flow to me.

Basically, this is my line of thought:


 * Normandy (~= Normandy Campaign)
 * Breakout and Pursuit + Southern France (relatively the same time) (~= Northen France Campaign + Southern France Campaign)
 * Drive to the Siegfried Line (marked by a drastic slowdown, logistical crisis) (~= First half of the Rhineland Campaign)
 * Ardennes Offensive (~= The Ardennes-Alsace Campaign)
 * Push to the Elbe (~= Second half of the Rhineland Campaign, Central European Campaign)

Oberiko 02:19, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Sources, please? What do historians of World War II commonly call these engagements? Gdr 19:09, 2004 Dec 16 (UTC)


 * So far as I know, I haven't seen any common names for most of them.


 * European Theater of Operations officially refers to them as the names given in the italics above (Normandy Campaign, Northern France Campaign, Southern France Campaign, Rhineland Campaign, Ardennes-Alsace Campaign, and Central European Campaign). The British refer to the entirety of their part as the North-West European Campaign.


 * Phillip and I have agreed not to use the ETO names, as officially, it mostly excludes non-American actions and it would be inaccurate to just put them in regardless.


 * For example, if we did the Normandy Campaign, we wouldn't really be able to talk much on Sword, Gold or Juno beach. If we do the Northern France Campaign, we can't have much mention about Operation Goodwood.  Hence, we use a neutral name: Normandy Campaign --> Battle of Normandy.


 * Right now this article is based on the Rhineland Campaign (the first half eventually), but isn't called as such because it would exclude the actions of the Northern Group of Armies (Battle of the Schelde etc.).


 * So, that's why I'm discussing the matter in here. I'd like to get a neutral name for the first half of the Rhineland Campaign.  It's not as sensational as the Ardennes-Alsace Campaign (which is popular enough to have aquired the neutral name of Battle of the Bulge).  If you can think of one, I'm all ears.


 * Oberiko 19:34, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This conversation has been spread over three pages see also:
 * Talk:List of World War II theaters and campaigns
 * Talk:Northern France Campaign (1944)

I would be interested to read you views on the problem and what you think is the best solution. I think the front has to be treated as one because the suppy situation was such that the actions of the three armies were closly tied to each other and one can not understand what is happening on the broad front without that intergration... but I've written all that in the previous conversations so you will know my view by now.

Sometimes one is tempted to see that in Monty's eyes, the Germans were mearly the opposition and that the real enemy was to the west and south ;-) I liked General Slim's comments on dealing with vinger Joe Stilwell who was another General who others found difficult to work with:
 * ''Stilwell, however bitterly resisted [taking orders from Giffard],... To watch Stilwell, when hard pressed, shift his opposition from one of the several strong-points he held by virtue of his numerous Allied, American and Chinese offices, to another was a lesson in mobile offensive-defence.

--Philip Baird Shearer 01:09, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Renaming: part III
I'd like to rename this article to Siegfried Line Campaign. I realize that the name is a bit US-centric (they throw that name around alot), but it's not an official name and better describes this phase of the Western European Campaign. Any objections? Oberiko 12:09, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

February to March 1945
yesterday User:Folks at 137 changed the redirect on Rhineland Campaign to
 * The Rhineland Campaign is a loose term to describe the final phases of the Second World War in Western Europe. Broadly speaking, it started with the Canadian 1st Army's action in February, 1945 to clear the Reichswald Forest (Operation Veritable) and ended with the German surrender on May 6. (Not all actions in this period were necessarily part of the campaign.)
 * The notable operations and actions were:
 * Operations Veritable and Grenade to clear the west bank of the Rhine north of the Ruhr by the Canadian 1st Army and the US 9th Army
 * Operations Plunder, Archway and Varsity to cross the Rhine north of the Ruhr, by the 21st Army Group
 * crossing of the Rhine at Worms by the US 7th Army
 * crossing of the Rhine by the French 1st Army
 * Battle for the Ruhr where the German Army Group B was encircled and defeated by US 1st and 9th Armies
 * Drive to the Siegfried Line
 * Drive to the Siegfried Line

I reversed it beacause although, I agree that a campaign after the Battle of the Bulge needs to be written along the lines mentioned above. But I am not happy with the name because the Rhineland is a specific area in Germany. Perhapse "Germany Campaign" would be a suitable name? Anyway can we discuss a name for the campaing mentioned above as "Push to the Elbe (~= Second half of the Rhineland Campaign, Central European Campaign)" and does anyone have a better name? --Philip Baird Shearer 14:39, 11 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Phew! Relieved that my script has been saved. 'Rhineland' is a specific area, but I think that it's looser when referring to this military campaign. I think that there's an understanding about this - I'll check. Certainly Veritable. or something like it was expected after a pause in major Allied activity - Schlemm and his superiors did. So here's a start. Back soon. Folks at 137 16:56, 11 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I'd rather not call it the Germany Campaign since the Russians also invaded Germany. Perhaps Invasion of Western Germany?  Oberiko 23:21, 11 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Ok - done some reading.
 * What do we mean by 'Rhineland'? Could be a)Rhineland-Palatinate, a German state,b)a German region, consisting of Saarland, Rhineland-Palatinate and North Rhine Westphalia, c) the region of Germany adjacent to its western border with France, Luxembourg and Belgium demilitarised after the First World War.


 * For the purposes of the 'Rhineland Campaign', a) is too restricted, c) includes other, distinct campaigns such as those in Alsace and b) is pretty much what I had in mind. Campaigns in Germany after the Rhineland (definition b) was taken (eg advance to Kiel and through the Black Forest) were not included. The taking of the territories around the middle and upper Rhine were a distinct campaign and deserve a separate article - as does Alsace, etc.


 * I don't agree that the 'Rhineland Campaign' and 'Drive to the Siegfried Line' are the same. The map I'm looking at (The Struggle for Europe, chapter 29, The Western Front Autumn 1944) shows that the Siegfried Line for most of its length was well to the west of the Rhine. So, much of the 'Rhineland Campaign' would be after the 'Drive to the Siegfried Line'.


 * A parochial point: the Siegfried Line was of little impact upon British, Canadian and the US forces north of Aachen - the Germans had other defensive assets, so it makes little sense bundling Market Garden or Veritable, etc into the Drive to the Siegfried Line. From a British POV, the British drive into Germany went thru the Rhineland as did the US envelopement of the Ruhr.


 * The problem for me with some of the proposed names, eg German Campaign, Drive to the Siegfried Line is that they lack recognition. Canadians would recognise the Scheldt; Brits, the Rhineland and US, Alsace and Siegfried Line (maybe). Never mind neutral names - accept that the war in Western Europe had several distinct campaigns, often linked to national armies and individual generals, and be proud!


 * Oh yes - never mind the 'official US military documents' in Britain, the Rhineland and Market Garden were wholly distinct. Market Garden,IMHO, marks the end of the rapid advance from Normandy; Rhineland is the start of the final annihilation of the German army in the west


 * No offence intended by this, sorry about verbose rantings. What do you think? Folks at 137 00:12, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

This conversation has been advancing as the articles are written! Please see Talk:List of World War II theaters and campaigns and Talk:Northern France Campaign (1944) to see more of the discussion. I the books I have read on the 44-45, campaign the Rhineland is taken to be the German regions west of the Rhine and (probably) behind the Siegfried Line. You will see from my comments before that for this/these campaign(s) I prefer to use time or notable features.

The reason why we have had this quandary is because the the British (and the Canadians?) there is only one campaign during the whole of World War II in this region "North West European Campaign". Lots of Battles of course, because its battle honours that matter to a regiment not campaigns. The Americans have more campaigns but they are geographically in the area that they fought in. --Philip Baird Shearer 10:47, 12 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Read them. Oh dear, here I am, brain the size of a peanut, trying to get a sense of the flow of the war. At the end of the day, naming conventions may be of interest to the specialist, but if Wiki is to help the inquisitive and interested amateur, then the main point is to be accessible. If that means the same data is capable of access from different perspectives, then we may have to accept it and manage the consequences. As a peanut, I was only trying to tidy links on a list, authoring when necessary. I may back off until the dust settles on the campaign argument (which seems to be long drawn out) and just do battles & operations for someone else to categorise.


 * To restate, if US readers have a different perspective to Brits (or, French, or Canadian, or Soviet) then fine, but an amateur Brit (or etc) might not find the flow accessible if the Commonwealth campaign is shoe-horned. Example: Market Garden to the US was apparantly the start of the Rhineland campaign (however defined!}, fine, but most Brit focussed write ups seem to suggest that it was the end of the 'pursuit' phase after Normandy.


 * I'll follow this debate, but .....
 * Regards Folks at 137 11:48, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Renaming part 4
Since not all actions where about the Siegfried Line, I propose we use something a bit more generic. I've found a few references referring to this period as the "autumn campaign" or "fall campaign" (D-Day 1944, pg. 13; Us Tank and Tank Destroyer Battalions in the Eto 1944-45, pg. 74 etc.) so I'd like to rename this to the more generic "Western Allied Autumn Campaign in Europe". Thoughts? Oberiko 22:12, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Second thought would be the shorter "Western Front (Autumn 1944)", which I personally prefer. Oberiko 14:34, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The move to Autumn is against WP:SEASON, so such a move should be debated with a WP:RM. --Philip Baird Shearer 22:28, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Oberiko I am not against the name, but we ran into problems with the Falklands War over using spring summer and winter so there has been a move against using seasonal descriptions for the timing of events. An Ausi, Kiwi, or a South African will have to think quite carefully if autumn comes before or after spring in the northern hemisphere! --Philip Baird Shearer 22:41, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Wasn't aware of that, seems reasonable though. I'll go through WP:RM. Oberiko 22:59, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

move the page to Allied advance from Paris to the Rhine, as per the discussion below. Please alter the text of the article as is deemed necessary. Dekimasu よ! 03:33, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Requested move from Drive to the Siegfried Line to Western Front (Autumn 1944)

As shown in the discussion above, the name has been quite contentious. The proposed Western Front (Autumn 1944) is applicable to all actions within this article and is referenced by several sources. Oberiko 23:12, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * As an resident of the Southern Hemisphere (who is enjoying the first days of our summer), I can confirm that Philip is on the money; seasonal references do cause confusion. I would suggest a name like "Western Europe Offensive (August–December 1944)".  Grant  |  Talk  16:31, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with that. Would anyone object to Western European Campaign (August - December 1944)? Oberiko 17:23, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I would object. Western European Campaign (August - December 1944) surely would be a larger topic. Sunray 18:12, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Moreover, it has a rather dull, almost bureaucratic, tone to it. Sunray 18:23, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Can you expand on how it should be a larger topic? I'll admit, the title doesn't have pizazz, but I'm hoping to make it more accurate.  "Drive to the Siegfried Line" is not used in many sources and refers only to certain actions: ie, it wouldn't cover any of the the Commonwealth actions moving more north-west into Benelux. Oberiko 02:15, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

On a more trivial note, it was pointed out to me recently that en-dashes (–) should be used, without spaces, instead of hyphens (-) when connecting dates (e.g. "August–December"). Grant |  Talk  19:45, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * But not I think in page names as it is uncommon to have that character easily available on the typical keyboard and it is difficult to spot the difference from observation alone. --Philip Baird Shearer 20:17, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * True, although although that can be fixed through a re-direct. (Incorrect use of hyphens is one of my many hobbyhorses ;-)


 * I general I agree with Sunray. What about "Allied Western Europe Offensive (August–December 1944)", which is even more precise(?) Grant  |  Talk  04:58, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * If it is a descriptive name "western" and "offensive" should start with a lower case letter and should it be "western" or "west"? I don't like the current name but I don't think that the new names are much better, but I can't think of a better name myself although perhaps something geographical should also be considered like Allied advance from Paris to the Rhine. --Philip Baird Shearer 08:31, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Given that there already are articles on Western Front (World War II) and Siegfried Line, I think that any of the titles suggested above will present a great deal of overlap to contend with. Nevertheless, I take the point that "Drive to the Siegfried Line" does not include all of the battles in W. Europe in the final months of 1944. Thus, "Allied advance from Paris to the Rhine" may be the most descriptive title we could come up with. Sunray (talk) 06:41, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Anti French-Canadian POV
I don't think that the anti-french canadian POV should be in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.51.37.241 (talk) 01:13, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Text modified with reference & note of plebiscite results. Folks at 137 (talk) 17:47, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Rhineland Campaign
The US Army calls this Rhineland Campaign, but the British Army only recognises it with a campaign medal called France and Germany Star, and that covers D-Day to Berlin!--Koakhtzvigad (talk) 06:03, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It would certianly fit better than the current title, I think it's obvious that the article needs to change it's name. The Rhineland Campaign or The Sigfried Line Campaign would be much more suitable. --Nirvana77 (talk) 21:06, 17 February 2010 (UTC)