Talk:Sieve of Eratosthenes/Archive 1

No redundant exclusions
Nevertheless, it is irksome to sieve away and strike out elements that have previously been struck out when seiving with a smaller prime. This can be handled. So far, prime production is via division (test factorisation), and addition (seiving). Now comes prime production via multiplication, relying on the fundamental theorem of arithmetic that every number has a unique prime factorisation. The plan therefore is to generate all products of primes, and strike out the corresponding element of the seive: there will be one strike only on each composite number. Imagine a sieve of some large size. Start a process say "Breed" with two; it generates all powers of two and naturally, strikes them from the sieve up to the limit of the sieve. Further, for each power of two (being 1 to whatever) it takes that number and commands a Breed with that and three (the next higher prime) and five, and seven, and so forth until the multiple exceeds the seive length. Likewise start a basic Breed with three to generate all powers of three and further with those powers and the next primes up, five, seven, etc. And likewise a basic Breed with five, and so on, until the first level would start beyond the length of the seive. In this scheme it is helpful to schedule matters so that the smaller composite numbers are generated first so that the needed additional primes for the process can be extracted from the seive as it is being adjusted.

As for running speeds, the administration is much more complex. Clearly the multiplicative process requires time slightly less than linear with respect to the highest number N, being one action for every composite number, of which there are N less the number of primes up to N, or N - (N/Ln(N)) approximately, whereas the additive sieving method requires one pass for every prime less than the square root of N (very slightly less), each pass of which requires N/prime(i) actions, that is N/2 actions for 2, N/3 for 3 and so on; the summation of 1/p(i) for i = 1 to n, such that p(n + 1)**2 > N. The summation of 1/p(i) has been studied (by Hardie, I recall), but I lack the reference just now. Whichever, the action count is proportional to N*(summation of 1/p(i)), or N*(something that increases with N), which is clearly more than linear.

Supposing that multiplication and addition take about the same time (analysis of the processes say they have the same complexity, but offer little advice on methods to perform the processes), accordingly, for ever larger N, the multiplicative generation of composite numbers should eventually outrun the additive generation with redundancy. NickyMcLean 22:13, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Apart from the computational advantaages of a "zero redundant exclusions" prime sieve; which remain to be established. There is the theoretical possibility that such a sieve could be used to establish an expression for the number of compound numbers less than n; and hense the number of primes less than n, say p; from p = n - c;regards rhnmcl

A Fully Deterministic Boolean Approach For The Sieve of Eratosthenes
--Ausples 22:46, 14 May 2007 (UTC) The following algorithm/code has runtime of Big-O(N&minus;P). This means the range we are checking for prime numbers minus the number of primes found (there are no calculations for finding a prime number here, only true/false checks, primality was determined based on previous factors).

In computer science you can use boolean conditions to create the Sieve of Eratosthenes that runs sub-linear Big-O(N-P), by using a boolean memory location for each prime number in N, as follows:

O(100000000);

private void O(int N) { //<-- start copy. int S = N; int p = 0; //this will always be a prime number only. Pre-Deterministic. int d = 0; //this will always be a factor of a prime number only. Deterministic. bool[] primeCheck = new bool[S]; //create a boolean array for the length to be checked for primes 0->N. for (p=2; p<S; p++) { switch(primeCheck[p]) {  case true: continue; case false: {   for (d=p+p; d < S; d+=p) {    switch(primeCheck[d]) {     case true: continue; case false: primeCheck[d] = true; break; }   }    //trace(p); //p will be the NEXT prime number. break; }   } } } //<-- end paste.

Functional closed circuit case.

---Closed Circuit Time Testing

6/01/2006 4:19:20 PM

Scope(O): 100,000,000

Primes Found(P): 5,761,455

Memory Operations(N): 94,238,545 (Actual CPU runtime operations) (Time Complexity. Processor memory operations)

Time(Actual):

hours:0

minutes:0

seconds:10

milliseconds:843

6/01/2006 4:19:31 PM

As you can see, the code finds 5.7 million primes in 100 million possible choices in N-P operations. Always. This code means that it is possible to run the Sieve of Eratosthenes in sub-linear Big-O(N-P) operations on a computer without factoring. Modifying the "for" loops to skip 2's does not improve the time complexity, nor does it improve the speed of the actual runtime.

At first glance, it would seem this algorithm is of complexity Big-O(N^2) or simply N^2, as they are nested loops. However, the sieve logic predetermines what the computer will or will not operate on at runtime. The computer algorithm will only operate on memory once for each location and does not operate on prime locations (but may optionally output at runtime). This gives us a sub-linear Big-O(N-P) where 0->N is the range the computer will check for primes, and P is the number of prime locations visited. This algorithm is of course restricted to finding primes in the range 0->N, where N can be as large as the maximum array size allowable by the compiler of your choice. There is no math in this code. We are not factoring primes here. They are fully determined during runtime. Big-O encapsulates the time complexity of loop control and conditional structures used for any program, as they are constants.

We use control structures to determine true/false conditions in the boolean array to determine a prime location based on when the memory is checked, which are constants for Big-O notation. Since we are concerned with primes, we are concerned with location rules, just like calculus, which is always represented as a straight line, for a polynomial equation. In this case, the above code appears to be N^2, but further examination of loop structure, control structure and runtime mapping prove complexity Big-O(N-P). The rules of the Sieve of Eratosthenes can be found in this article from Wichita State University's Math and Statistics department and the National Institue of Standards and Technology, respectively ->-> ,. We determine prime locations in range 0->N by marking all non-primes using the inner loop, then visiting the next prime using the outer loop (which will be predetermined), then repeating until we reach N. This is sub-linear by virtue that P is not a constant. If P were a constant, then the time complexity would be Big-O(N). Above it is Big-O(N-P). There is no log N here. We always know that the algorithm will produce the same results each time for infinite N. There is no guess work, or modulus factoring.

Bibliography:

A1. Computer Science: An Overview by J. Glenn Brookshear, 1997 Addison Wesley publishing company. 0.3 The Evolution of Computer Science, p. 9 (Conceptual Theory)

B1. The World Treasury of Physics, Astronomy, and Mathematics: Edited by Timothy Ferris, Time Warner Book Group. Part Three: The Cosmos of Numbers::Artificial Intelligence and All That:::”The Computer and the Brain” by John Von Neuman 1958. p.483. (Full excerpt: p478-491) (Application Theory)

B2. The World Treasury of Physics, Astronomy, and Mathematics: Edited by Timothy Ferris, Time Warner Book Group. Part Three: The Cosmos of Numbers::Artificial Intelligence and All That:::”Can a Machine Think?” by Alan Turning ~1950. p.495-496. (Full excerpt: p492-519) (Application Theory)

C1. Algorithmics: The Spirit of Computing by David Harel, 1987~1996 Addison Wesley publishing company. 6.3 Order of Magnitude Improvements. p. 130-131. (Conceptual Theory)

D1. The Elegant Universe: Superstrings, Hidden Dimensions, and the Quest for the Ultimate Theory by Brian Greene, 1999 Vintage Books. The Super In Superstrings. p. 166,167 (System~Model Conceptual Theory)

Keep in mind this is a clever computer science solution, not a conventional one. --Ausples 16:04, 11 May 2007 (UTC)


 * O(N-P) is not sublinear, but linear: O(N-P) = O(N - N/ln N) = O(N). -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 16:09, 11 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Below comments of the form "<-- (...)" were inserted by Ausples. PrimeHunter 18:04, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Comments by Ausples in PrimeHunter's comments removed by Ausples. Sorry about that. Won't happen again. :-) --Ausples 21:52, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Your code makes the assignment "primeCheck[d] = true" when the first prime factor of the composite d is found. There are N-P composites, so the instruction is performed N-P times. As Jitse Niesen notes, O(N-P) = O(N). See Big-O notation.
 * But reading memory is also a memory operation, and it takes time (at least one clock cycle and usually more). So all evaluations of primeCheck[d] in your "switch(primeCheck[d])" must also be counted. The total number in the nested loop is above linear. There does not exist an implementation of the Sieve of Eratosthenes which is sublinear or linear in total memory operations or time. It can easily be modified to use sublinear memory size but that is another issue. Also note No original research. Even if you think you have a sublinear algorithm, you are not allowed to add that claim to an article unless it has been supported by a reliable source. By the way, I have implemented the Sieve of Eratosthenes at least a dozen times and know it well. The Sieve of Atkin is asymptotically faster. PrimeHunter 16:37, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

The coded algorithm does not operate on prime number locations, therefore, it runs Big-O(N-P). As above. We do not know until the end of N how many exist in P, so P is not a constant. P is different for each N, therefore it's not constant. If it were, we could concede this to be Big-O(N). If it moves faster than N, but the variable P is not known until the end of runtime, the algorithm time complexity is reduced by the factor P, so it must run at Big-O(N-P), which is less than linear for some factor which equals the total number of primes found in N. How do we say that in Mathematics? Is that not sub-linear? Also, we're not concerned with the physical time results. Only that it runs algorithmically in Big-O(N-P). This also prevents overworking your processors and wear on the memory chips by not operating on them so much. :-/ --Ausples 17:24, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Please don't delete talk page comments by others (unless they are vandalism, or deletion is allowed by a specific Wikipedia guideline). Write your own comments below and not inside the comments of others.
 * The "segmented" Sieve of Eratosthenes (you can Google it) uses sublinear memory. People often omit to say "segmented". There are often claims that the Sieve of Eratosthenes is linear in time (also in Wikipedia), but it's actually slower. However, it's so close that the difference doesn't matter in practice at the sizes computers can handle. The sieve detects each composite d for each prime factor below sqrt(d). And the average number of prime factors is log (log N) which grows very slowly.
 * Apparently we have different definitions of "memory operations", but the important issue is time, and we agree that memory reads take time. Sublinear time means o(N) time. (Note the little o, it's not O(N)). See Big-O notation for definitions. PrimeHunter 18:04, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

You can test how many memory operations by incrementing a counter, once after a line of code that sets a value in memory. e.g. "x=3". or in the case above, "primeCheck[d] = true". Although, intereseting to note: Asymptotic Time Complexity-The limiting behavior of the execution time of an algorithm when the size of the problem goes to infinity. This is usually expressed in Big-O notation ->. So then based on Computational_complexity_theory. This algorithm would have following complexities: Time Complexity: Big-O(N-P) ~Here we are using memory operations time. Conditional operators are not expressed in Big-O time complexity. That is a technological limitation, not an algorithmic one. Note1: The "continue" statement forces the processor to move on before any operations occur. Note2: There is no known equation that produces primes, because it's exclusively an algorithm (thus a computer science problem). This can only be accomplished through an computer algorithm, following the instructions of the algorithm designer. This is exclusively a Sieve of Eratosthenes., Note 3: The algorithm starts slow (it marks the smallest prime along N before visiting the next prime) but gets faster as P gets bigger. At N/2 it has finished checking off non-primes and only visits prime locations. So log(log N) does not apply for the duration of the algorithm, if it ever did. It still gets done in N-P operations. So for N=100,000,000 it will take the time it takes the processor to operate on N-P bits of memory (for Big-O(N-P)) but there will also be constant time for the control structures (which again are not expressed in the notation.,,). --Ausples 18:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Circuit complexity is not about time. Time complexity is the asymptotic total number of individual steps needed to solve a problem. It's not limited to memory writes. And as I said, it's not linear for the Sieve of Eratosthenes. It's actually O(N*log log N) for primes up to N. Counting steps or measuring time in examples with specific N can only allow guessing of the asymptotic behaviour. The algorithm must be analyzed mathematically to prove the complexity. Other qualified mathematicians have already done that, and the log log n term is real. There does not exist a constant k such that the total number of steps is below k*N for all N. This means the algorithm is not linear.
 * Category:Primality tests mentions several algorithms which can prove primality without testing potential prime factors, but that is unrelated to the Sieve of Eratosthenes. PrimeHunter 22:10, 11 May 2007 (UTC)


 * okay. we said above it was linear, now it's not. Which is it? And why? We need more computer science references. It seems like we're not sure, but I am. Can we find another *I* on this? Jitse says it is not sub-linear, but it is linear. Prime Hunter agrees, but no longer agrees. Anyone else? --Ausples 21:56, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Jitse only noted that O(N-P) = O(N) is linear and not sublinear, and I agreed. None of us claimed it was the time complexity of the Sieve of Eratosthenes. PrimeHunter 23:34, 11 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Computer science algorithm time complexities-> . Test the code; runs O(N), "running in at most N steps on inputs of length N exists." It seems like that sums it up. For computer science, this code has algorithm time complexity O(N-P) processor memory operations. Which according to the books below, is how we guage time complexity in computer science. (as above):

A1. Computer Science: An Overview by J. Glenn Brookshear, 1997 Addison Wesley publishing company. 0.3 The Evolution of Computer Science, p. 9 (Conceptual Theory)

C1. Algorithmics: The Spirit of Computing by David Harel, 1987~1996 Addison Wesley publishing company. 6.3 Order of Magnitude Improvements. p. 130-131. (Conceptual Theory)

The Sieve of Eratosthenes is an NP complete problem. so far, this is the only known sieve that satisfies the computer science definition for time complexity as per references above in N. Could another computer scientist explain further? Or explain why this is not Big-O(N-P) algorithm time complexity based on computer science, not in math? This isn't just a math problem. Math just claims it, but still can't solve it in N. We want it back. This is OUR Sieve of Eratosthenes. --Ausples 01:38, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I seriously doubt any of the mentioned books use your time complexity definition which does not indicate the time to run the algorithm. An algorithm with eN iterations of a loop but no memory writes would have time complexity 0 by your definition. NP-complete problems are a class of decision problems. The sieve of Eratosthenes is an algorithm and not a decision problem. It makes no sense to say it's NP-complete or even discuss it. Your reference says nothing about the Sieve of Eratosthenes. PrimeHunter 02:47, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * When you set X=3. That is one memory operation. At runtime, the algorithm sets N-P bits of memory according to Eratosthenes instruction to determine that the next location is prime. What is "0" complexity in Big-O notation is the time to check whether the space is true or false(this is part of a conditional control structure, and constant as far as expressing Big-O is concerned). It writes to memory once and only once for each memory location that does not correspond to a prime number location. You can compare against time complexity of other known solutions, by adding a counter for each time the computer operates on memory, inside the control structures, after the memory is assigned.--Ausples 21:56, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Checking for true or false takes time so I would not call it "free". I don't think you have a reliable source (or any source) which says that it can be ignored in time complexity. If I run a program, I care about how long it takes, and not about how the time is split between memory reads, memory writes, boolean checks, and so on. PrimeHunter 13:03, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The above references are college text books and fit the requirements for reliable sources. Here, Wikipedia says that PRIMES are in NP or coNP. Primality_test. We are still not concerned with the actual time in seconds (again, technological limitation), as loop control structures and conditional structures are constant time. They factor into the time complexity as C*O(N) which makes them arbitrary in Big-O notation (see above references). (although, this algorithm's actual time so far is less than any other known sieve, probably because it's not factoring. It is determined at runtime without calculation (i.e. factoring integers... 7%7=0 makes 7 prime, etc). One could not apply the current conventional rules to this algorithm. This has little to do with math. It's all boolean logic. This algorithm follows Eratosthenes requirements listed in the 3rd paragraph here -> . This also is a reliable source. So far, we find this is pretty general knowledge and known. The time complexity is correct for memory operations. The loops are constants. So, I believe that it is safe to say that the algorithm/code above has runtime complexity of C*O(N-P). We can drop the C, since C is constant, and say Big-O(N-P). ->,. I would suggest testing the code above against other sieves for Big-O, for your personal satisfaction. One might have to detach themselves from mathematical thoughts about the Sieve of Eratosthenes as it's not really a math problem, what if we didn't use numbers? What if we used letters? He was pretty clear about the requirements, he simply used the number stream as an example for a prime sieve, and gave us instructions on how to get to each prime location one in linear time (N). The code above literally follows his instructions.,. Most current implementations use factoring to determine primality. Math. Again, we are determining the prime factors at runtime above, as per the written user requirements. For comparison consideration, here is a square root implementation (so far, fastest published deterministic Sieve of Eratosthenes code that could be found) that has been tested against the above code. The following referenced algorithm comes from a graduate level, advanced artificial intelligence class. Read Algorithm Implementation 1 here.->. This referenced Sieve of Eratosthenes is also deterministic. It uses an initialization loop, a nested loop, and another loop to display the primes. It does not report at runtime (this a polynomial solution). In the code above, we visit prime locations (and may report them) at runtime, in Big-O(N-P). Again, there are conditions. You must start at 2, and you must have memory size for 0->N. There is no factoring. Boolean logic only. Note 1: If you want it to go faster, just add processors to reduce actual runtime to (N/number of processors). This is basic parallel computing. --Ausples 04:28, 13 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The only thing important for Wikipedia is whether there is a reliable source stating whether the algorithm you show runs in linear time.
 * The question whether the algorithm does in reality run in linear time may be interesting, but it is not of relevance for Wikipedia. We all agree that the line primeCheck[d] = true is executed N&minus;P times. We disagree about whether the line switch(primeCheck[d]) is free, as you claim; where in what text book did you find this? What computational model are you using? And we haven't even talked about the instruction d+=p . -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 06:23, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Switches are conditional control structures set up by the compiler, therefore, it does not interfere with Big-O time complexity. Second paragraph and conditional section for if/else(applies to switches) -> . Again, a switch is not an operation, but a conditional control structure set up to reduce algorithm operational runtime and improve actual time results making them arbitrary for expressing the time complexity in Big-O. Switches check for true and false. Memory operations that require the computer to change memory are 1 each in complexity for the duration of the structure that controls the operation statement. We make N-P statements throughout the algorithm. Our worst case time complexity could therefore be said to be Big-O(N-P). As for d+=p: one must control the loop counter in order to produce the desired result of sieving out the next non-prime, before the location is checked by the outer loop structure, as it has been determined that "p" is a prime location based on the rules of the algorithm written by Eratosthenes. Further, using "continue" tells the compiler to move to the next location before any operation/calculation is made by the processor. This reduces the number of operations/calculations to N-P. The algorithm knows a location is prime by virtue of the fact it will be the next location it visits in the outer loop. Please ask more questions. A graph of actual test data using real time output (i.e. Sec/Millisec), will still produce a linear result. --Ausples 10:42, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * As the link you gave says, not only statements incur a cost but expressions do too. There is a cost associated with the expression primeCheck[d] in the switch statement; O(1) according to the lecture notes. So they're not free. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 11:03, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Exactly. And that O(1) expression is evaluated O(n*log log n) times in total, so the time complexity (following conventional definitions) is at least that. Ausples wrote: "One could not apply the current conventional rules to this algorithm". That sums up the main problem. Ausples is in WP:OR territory and Wikipedia does not allow that. By the way, as one who has implemented and seen the sieve many times, I can say with confidence that Ausples' implementation is relatively slow in actual running time compared to many other implementations. PrimeHunter 11:39, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I believe that if you plot the result, it looks linear. It's hard to see the difference between O(N) and O(N log N) and O(N log log N), and in practice there is little difference. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 11:24, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

The statement->"One could not apply the current conventional rules to this algorithm"--retracted. You can certainly apply conventional computer science rules here, as this algorithm follows those standards (see above references). Prime Hunter wrote: "I can say with confidence that Ausples' implementation is relatively slow in actual running time compared to many other implementations." Again, this does not matter for Big-O notation. Again, this is a technological limitation, not an algorithmic one. Big-O(N-P) does not change from computer to computer. But here is some hard data from my system: The processor speed is really arbitrary here. It could be done with a 1MHz processor, it's still going to come out as Big-O(N-P)). You will want to plot starting at N=1,000,000(1M) as the computer does not spend any actual time in milliseconds finding primes until N=1,000,000. (And apparently finds 1,624,528 primes when N=26,000,0000 in about 2 and a half seconds on my system. At higher ranges, it still runs Big-O(N-P)) You can get more results for 100M->1xxM and the result will be the same. Linear.

Slight millisecond variances (if any) are due to OS restrictions on processor time for multi-threading OS background tasks. This is common on popular operating systems. You can test this up to the limit the OS will allocate for a boolean array. It will still be a linear result. I can draw the graph for you, or you can plot it in a spreadsheet yourself. Big-O(N-P). Actual runtime indicates it, actual operation count proves it. The graph is a straight line. There is no logN anywhere in the above code. Please provide references for your refutation, otherwise this cannot be challenged. I do not understand terms like: "I think", "I believe", "I feel", they are not academic terms. Please break down the time complexity using computer science based references. This has been done by myself throughout this discussion. Where is your reference for refutation? If I were to "believe", I believe that this is what Eratosthenes had in mind, since it runs O(N-P) to the computer, and matches exactly his user requirements., --Ausples 13:35, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The below mentioned bug in the original version has been fixed above in the current version. PrimeHunter 20:28, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * As I have said, asymptotic time complexity must be proved by analyzing the algorithm mathematically. It can never be proved by running test cases. As MathWorld says, the average number below N has O(log log N) prime factors. That log log N gets into the real time complexity. This is really outside the scope of a talk page which is intended for discussing improvements to the article, but I will compare actual timings to my code. I debugged (the last "break" must be removed) and ran Ausples' C code:
 * 5761455 primes up to 100000000 computed in 3.41 seconds.
 * An old C implementation by me with same compiler and cpu:
 * 5761455 primes up to 100000000 computed in 0.47 seconds (7 times faster).
 * My implementation is the segmented Sieve of Eratosthenes and works to 10^12 with a couple MB ram. Many people have made faster implementations than me. Use Google to find some. By the way, the mentioned bug means that Ausples' program, as displayed above and previously inserted in the article, actually is linear, but it's not the Sieve of Eratosthenes, and it does not compute primes. I have spent far too much time on this discussion and may stop now. As long as you don't put original research into the article, we don't have to agree. PrimeHunter 17:56, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Please provide references. Further, no breaks need be removed from this code. The last break belongs to the false case in the first switch statement, this is not a bug. In N=100M (as you claim above producing primes in .47 seconds), we compute that around ~10 seconds using the code above, not 3.4 seconds. Actual time is a technological limitation, not an algorithmic one, therefore arbitrary to Big-O time complexity. What is important is that over several controlled tests that the algorithm produces Big-O(N-P). You are also claiming that your algorithm would go faster than the above mentioned "square sieve", (or the quadratic sieve for that matter) cited in that masters level artificial intelligence class ->. Call me skeptical on that note. ;-) If you do not provide references for these claims, they must be false because they would then be based in ego("I"), not reality. We are made to "believe", which again is not academic, even less scientific. Further, if the code above is not producing prime numbers at runtime, then what is it doing? That trace line is a console output. "p" is always a prime number in this algorithm. This can be proven by adding the console output line. Which, was apparently not done, as Prime Hunter says, "but it's not the Sieve of Eratosthenes, and it does not compute primes." Right, it's determinisitic; the outer loop knows that the next location it visits will be a prime location. And it does in fact meet the user requirements set out by Eratosthenes ,. We covered that. But at least we agree it runs Big-O(N-P). As for your citation above, this applies outside the scope of this article in "factoring" primes. The Sieve of Eratosthenes is concerned with the NEXT prime, not factoring them. Read the requirements again ,, and use a historical context this time. There is no mention of factoring anywhere. It's all about how you get to the NEXT prime (last I checked in calculus, a prime is a derivative location represented by a linear slope for an equation.). This is not a matter of agreeing. This is the Sieve of Eratosthenes as per user requirements,. It is a hard fact.--Ausples 20:02, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Check your above code which you also inserted in the article. It contains 5 '{' and only 4 '}'. Your indentation clearly indicates the missing '}' should be at the end. The last break does not belong to a switch as you claim. It jumps out of the inner for loop after a single iteration, and that is certainly wrong. The output for N=50 if your alleged primes p are printed is:
 * 2 3 5 7 8 9 11 12 13 15 17 19 20 21 23
 * If a '}' is instead added in a strange (in view of indentation) place before the last break, then that would fix your bug without having to delete the break.
 * As I wrote, my implementation (which is not fast compared to several other) of the Sieve of Eratosthenes runs around 7 times faster than your implementation. I did not compare it to your references. The timings are on one core of my 2.4 GHz Core 2 Duo, where your code takes 3.4s to 10^8, and mine takes 0.47s. You cannot expect me to time it on the same hardware as you happen to have, where your code apparently takes 10s. 7 times faster is an approximately constant factor due to optimization details of the essentially same algorithm. It's not asymptotically faster but it appears you don't understand the concept of asymptotic time complexity as expressed with big-O notation. You point to many references but those I and Jitse have examined don't support your claims. You question my work and integrity on sieving. I will let my record speak for itself: My prime sieves, usually based on Eratosthenes' idea, have set over 100 computational prime records. The primes are published on the web at the links and you are welcome to verify them (preferably not with your own software). I have spent hours on this discussion with no result and will try to focus on more productive editing now. But I will continue to watch the article and look out for original research. PrimeHunter 00:51, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Harry G. Mairson, Some new upper bounds on the generation of prime numbers, Communications of the ACM 20(9):664-669, 1977,, states that the time complexity of a standard implementation of the Sieve of Eratosthenes is O(N log log N) (look at the very start of the second page). None of the links provided by Ausples say anything on the alternative algorithm that Ausples shows, therefore, we can't add to the article. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 01:31, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * "}" was added in the wrong place, at the end as the indentation incorrectly indicated. It still computes the sequence 2 3 5 7 8 9 11 12 13 15 17 19 20 21 23. As I wrote, one way to fix it is adding a "}" before the last break (and before the output of p). PrimeHunter 12:00, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your references PH. It seems there was a copy/paste error. You can now copy/paste the code block, and modify data types as necessary. The output will be correct(as long as the datatypes are equivalent). Now you can see the alignment more clearly (all braces have end braces). And of course, there are now copy/paste instructions. I'm not quite sure why the code would stream those values, but the code block above is currently producing 2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 -> N. Not sure why you would get that sequence you're referring to. If it was missing a brace, it shouldn't even have compiled. But thanks for trying to fix it... It's fine now. Thanks again for the feedback. One may copy/paste the block again. And no, we cannot add the article at this time. It must remain in discussion for now. :-| --Ausples 19:17, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's correct now. The mentioned sequence 2 3 5 7 8 9 11 12 ... was the incorrect output when "}" was put at the end of the original version, which I first tried because of the indentation, and which your first correction did. PrimeHunter 20:28, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi everyone,

The order of the entire algorithm is O(N * N / ln(N)).

The outer loop executes once. During its execution, it repeats O(N) times.

The inner loop executes for each prime found. From the prime number theorem, there will be O(N/ln(N)) primes in the range, 0..N.

Each time the inner loop executes, it repeats O(N) times.

Each repeat of the inner loop takes O(1).

--Kevinkor2 15:00, 15 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Your statement "Each time the inner loop executes, it repeats O(N) times" is false. For the prime p, the number of repetitions of the inner loop is approximately N/p. That must be summed over primes p < N. http://www-lipn.univ-paris13.fr/~lavault/Articles/SMER05.pdf has the correct argument, with a reference to the reliable and respected: G. Hardy and E. Wright, An introduction to the theory of numbers. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1979.
 * In total there are O(N*log log N) repeats of the inner loop. One way to view this is that on average each number d < N is reached in the inner loop O(log log N) times, because numbers below N have on average O(log log N) prime factors. PrimeHunter 17:15, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Featured picture candidate
The animation (in rectangular form) is nominated to become a Featured Picture, see Featured picture candidates/Sieve of Eratosthenes. I said there that animation should be changed so that, when crossing off multiples of p, it starts at 2p instead of p2. I think the current animation, which starts at p2, will confuse some readers (see also the comments at the featured picture candidates page), and it is not an essential part of the algorithm to start at p2 (it does not change the N log log N complexity). However, I'm not sure about the latter bit, so please correct me if I'm wrong. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 01:59, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Another animation
Your opinions are invited on this graphic view of Eratosthenes sieve.Cuddlyable3 20:42, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Cuddlyable3 replaced the article's Image:Animation Sieve of Eratosth.gif with Image:EratosthenesSieve.gif which is the image with circles displayed here. I reverted and suggested to discuss first. I think Image:Animation Sieve of Eratosth.gif is much better. It seems very hard to follow what happens with the circles. They have different sizes for no apparent reason, there is a varying number in each ring for no apparent reason, only few circles are numbered, and those representing composites disappear very quickly. If you don't already know how the algorithm works then I don't think the circle image is helpful. PrimeHunter 21:25, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with PrimeHunter here. I had to watch the animation a couple of times and read the text below before I understood what's going on, and I do already know the algorithm. I like the new image from an artistic point of view, but pedagogically the old image is better. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 02:57, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Is the second image better? Cuddlyable3 16:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Features of the latest animation: -- is a way of suggesting that the domain of composite and prime numbers is unlimited i.e. not an intrinsic limit of the algorithm
 * First the natural numbers grow, then the sieve is applied.
 * 1 is never prime.
 * The spiral layout--

-- avoids emphasizing any particular multiples, which all rectangular tables are bound to do

-- contrasts the regularity of the natural numbers with the irregularity of the prime numbers. Cuddlyable3 19:39, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I still think the rectangular image is much better, even more so after it was improved today. Your spiral has more arbitrary limits like how many integers per turn and when to stop writing numbers. I don't think there exists any circle or spiral image I would prefer over the nice rectangular image in the current article. PrimeHunter 23:49, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it's a good representation. It makes sense from the algorithm perspective. The only suggestion for modification might be to not show numbers that have already been eliminated. For example. 3 already eliminates 15. When the animation gets to 5, it shows 15 again, which has already been eliminated by 3. [Added by 76.105.181.71]
 * I am wary of atributing to ancient Eratosthenes any but the simplest version of a prime-finder algorithm. He had no use for cataloging very large primes, nor a practical number representation for doing so; not having a computer he could hardly have an interest in programming one. His insight, and that of Euclid, were about the nature of the whole set of prime numbers and IMO is better represented as a sorting of the natural numbers in place than by showing mechanical processes on rigidly limited lists. "Simplest version" means striking every multiple of each successively discovered prime. That works and involves only additions. It does mean that numbers that are multiples of different primes viz. 15, 21, 33, 35, 55, 77, 165, 231,... get struck repeatedly; avoiding that requires added complications such as multiplication.Cuddlyable3 (talk) 19:40, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the current version with the squares is much, much easier to understand. Tempshill (talk) 17:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

animated picture
Is it just me that finds animated pictures in articles really annoying? How can you read an article if there's something jumping around on the screen at the same time? I'd much prefer a link to an animated visualization. 78.52.193.99 (talk) 09:47, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Anonymous 78.52.193.99 you may represent a small minority. You may exert one click on the Edit tab if you wish to read text with nothing jumping around. Alternatively in an Internet Explorer browser you can go to Tools - Internet options - Advanced - Multimedia - [ ]Play animations in web pages. Remove the tick in the box, click OK, refresh the page and then diagrams won't move. (I checked this in MS IE v. 6.) Info added by Cuddlyable3 (talk) 20:04, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Simpler Explanation?
When thinking of a way to implement this in Haskell, which is done with respect to lists rather than a procedural algorithm, it seems to me that it would be easier to describe this as the list of numbers is iterated over and each prime before it would be tested as a factor rather than all numbers before it.

FlowRate (talk) 03:00, 27 June 2008 (UTC)


 * By "tested as a factor" it sounds like you are describing trial division by either all numbers or by primes, but neither of these is what the Sieve of Eratosthenes does. For a prime p the sieve runs through multiples of p (by repeatedly adding p and jumping right over all numbers in between), and marks them as composite. But no number is divided by p to see if p is a factor. For large p it is far faster (at least with an array in a suitable language) to mark the few multiples of p than to make a divisibility test for p on all numbers with no factor below p. The sieve is suited for a language with arrays or similar which can directly access and change the nth element without using n operations to get there (or to copy the whole array because one value changed). I don't know Haskell and cannot say whether it's suited for the sieve. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:05, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

The animation
I like the animation but I think it would be even better if the column width was 6 as opposed to 10. The multiples of 2, 3, 5 and 7 all make really simple patterns that way. Just my opinion... i'm sure there are others who wouldn't want to sacrifice any "digitalness". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.207.204.55 (talk) 04:28, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

"A Reduced Redundant Exclusions (RRE) Prime Sieve"
The main reason for the inefficiency of the Sieve of Eratosthenes is simply that it spends much time excluding non-primes which have already been excluded. This is not so apparent in the range 1- 100 where it is usually demonstrated. But a quick check of prime densities: 25 upto 100; 168 upto 1,000; 78,498 upto 1,000,000 and 50,847,534 upto 1,000,000,000 makes it obvious that a prime sieve that reduces the number of these redundant exclusions will go much faster. I was unable to check the Atkins Sieve due to it's complexity but a simple variation of the Sieve of Eratosthenes will vastly reduce redundant exclusions if not eliminate them altogether:

Step 1 Sequentially write down the integers from 2 to m

Step2 Cross out all numbers > 2; which are products of 2 and numbers in the table >=2

Step 3 Find the smallest remaining number >2; it is 3

Step 4 Cross out all numbers > 3; which are products of 3 and un-crossed out numbers, in the table, >=3

Step 5 Find the smallest remaining number >3; it is 5

Step 6 Cross out all numbers > 5; which are products of 5 and un-crossed out numbers, in the table, >=5

Step 7 Continue while " the smallest remaining number" squared is =< m

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Rhnmcl (talk • contribs)

For more discussion on this algoritm see Talk:Sieve_of_Eratosthenes Zfishwiki (talk) 00:15, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, but I don't see any difference with the algorithm in the article, except for redundancy in your description (all numbers >n are >=n). Qwertyus 12:46, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Consider step 4 (for example); " the algorythm in the article " will cross out { 6,9,12,15,18, etc ); where 6,12,18 are redundant exclusions....they have already been crossed out ! Whereas step 4 (if read as I intend) will cross out only ( 9, 15, 21, 27, 33 etc} —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rhnmcl (talk • contribs)


 * The article already states: The crossing-off of multiples can be started at the square of the number, as lower multiples have already been crossed out in previous steps. This saves a lot of time, particularly for large numbers. Qwertyus 15:30, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

A good first step is to disregard all multiples of two: that is, the sieve represents only odd numbers. This is easy enough, because the pattern is just as simple as for consecutive numbers, you just have to be careful ablout the starting point for striking out every third, fifth, seventh, etc. Having the sieve elements not represent multiples of three as well as more difficult, and matters worsen if even more primes are not represented. Possibly this is what the fancier method involves for a certain collection of primes to be skipped. Another ploy is to choose the seive length to be the product of the first few primes, say N, with the intention of producing a batch of primes over 0 to N - 1, then start again with N to 2N - 1 for a second batch, and so on for however many batches you wish (since in actual computers, sieve arrays cannot be of indefinite length). The point of this is that the initial pattern of the sieve is the same and so does not have to be prepared more than once. But one can do better...


 * The above ploy works well if the sieve length is the biggest primorial that fits in fast memory. For PCs with i86 processors, 16-bit intrasegment addressing is fastest and accomodates a sieve size 17# = 2.3.5.7.11.13.17 = 510510, letting each data bit represent an odd number.Cuddlyable3 22:43, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Possible improvement on picture


I've made a new gif for this page based on some comments stated here: Featured picture candidates/Sieve of Eratosthenes. Should the old one be replaced with this one? Improvements:
 * Clearly shows what's a prime and what's not.
 * Fast animation during crossing out. (Although this was already done by brian0918 as well.

Note: I'm quite new. I do my best to do everything roughly right, but there's lots of guidelines to adhere to. If I did anything wrong, just poke me in the right direction. Thanks :) M.qrius (talk) 22:25, 27 December 2007 (UTC) Hi, That is a fantastic GIF picture!But yours is not as pretty as the old one,I am afraid.How do you make these pictures,can you tell me? I want to make some myselfVisame (talk) 18:38, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I actually rather like this animation. Somebody should seriously consider replacing the front-page animation with it, or something mighty similar. I do think it's a lot more clear. Maybe not quite as pretty and refined, but it's adequate, and certainly more utilitarian.

Looking at it again, in comparison to the original that it's based on,   you seem to have rather large margins around the list of primes to the right. These could probably be reduced a bit

Obscuranym (talk) 18:49, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Complexity
I think it should be noted that (of course depending on the abstract machine used for complexity analysis) the time complexity is in fact $$O(n\log(n)\log(\log(n)))$$, because the size of the presentation of $$n$$ is $$\log(n)$$, and therefore an addition takes $$O(\log(n))$$ time. Morgurth (talk) 14:30, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * But that way you'd have to include that $$O(\log n)$$ factor (and its powers) into time complexity of almost every algorithm! It's not a very useful thing to care about, and so in the usual computational model, used for analysis of algorithms (RAM machine), a machine word is assumed to be of size $$O(\log n)$$ bits, and so addition (multiplication, division, etc) of numbers of that size is $$O(1)$$. -- X7q (talk) 14:26, 22 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I disagree that such an observation is unimportant. The article should clearly describe what the asymptotic analyses measure.  Both analyses appear in respectable manuscripts,  for example the O(n * log log n)  appears in Melissa O'Neill's Genuine Sieve of Eratosthenes as measuring "operations", and the O(n * log n * log log n) appear in Bach and Shallit's Algorithmic Number Theory as bit operations.   However,  I provisionally support the change because the article used the latter in reference to the Sieve of Eratosthenes while using the former in reference to the Sieve of Atkin,  suggesting that they differ by a factor of O(log n * log log n) when in fact they differ only by O(log log n)


 * The simplification you describe is frequently used in the practice of algorithm analysis,  but reality is closer to Morgurth's comment.   However, this difference is far more pronounced for algorithms that aren't limited by memory consumption,  such as this one.    Moreover,  the more careful analyses can distinguish more subtle differences;  for example Bach and Shallit demonstrate an O(n * (log n) ^ 2 * log log n) algorithm that becomes O (n * log n * log log n) through a standard strength reduction,  whereas the two algorithms are both O(n * log log n) using your analysis.   Obscuranym (talk) 11:54, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Ten million
The article says, "It works efficiently for the smaller primes (below 10 million) [2].", but the source says, "The most efficient way to find all of the small primes (say all those less than 10,000,000)" I think what The Prime Glossary is saying is that Eratosthenes is the most efficient way to find all the primes between 2 and any n (i.e. the smallest primes, with some barrier). 10 million was just an example, while Eratosthenes is always fastest for this task when starting from scratch. I don't know of some better algorithm for finding e.g. all primes from 2 to 1 googol (again, assuming you have no information when starting). Superm401 - Talk 12:39, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It is not the most efficient for all n. For example, the Sieve of Atkin is faster for large n. There are also space considerations. Neither of the two can sieve to 1 googol with the combined computer memory in the world, but that is irrelevant because it would take too long anyway (it would barely have started in 5 billion years when the Sun dies). The crossover point for fastest algorithm depends on the implementation and computer. However, it may still be a problem that we use another wording than the source. Our wording could sound like it becomes inefficient above 10 million, but I wouldn't say that just because a more complicated algorithm may be a little faster depending on implementation details. The Sieve of Eratosthenes has been used to compute all primes below 12×1017 which is further than anything else I have heard about. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:34, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually the Sieve of Atkin is faster even for relatively small n. What they essentially mean here is that it's faster than testing them one by one. Dcoetzee 00:53, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Punctuation
"Sift the Two's and sift the Three's" is dead wrong. Never use an apostrophe in a plural. Why can't we correct the terrible punctuation of the source? The source isn't even the original source of the poem. It's just a poem and is not presented as a quote. You can't misquote something attributed to anonymous. These sources have the poem properly written:. Reywas92 Talk 01:54, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * See Manual of Style. And it's a poem so see also poetic license which says "ignoring the conventions of grammar". Using capitals in Two's and Three's is also within poetic license. "Sift the Two's and sift the Three's" has 357 Google hits. "Sift the Twos and sift the Threes" only has 9 and among those are a wiki, forum posts, a page that actually says "Two's" and "Three's", and a page where "twos" and "threes" is part of the url. I don't know which form is oldest but "Sift the Two's and sift the Three's" is clearly most common. For a math poem about numbers I also think it's better. PrimeHunter (talk) 02:02, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * This is not quoting anything. You cannot quote a poem for which the author and origin are completely unknown. These sites say to "Strike the twos and strike the threes", using proper grammar and a different verb, so this is not a set-in-stone quote. Can I use my poetic license to use correct grammar for something that is not sourced to a person? And the capital letters are just how it happened to be written and/or subsequently copied; I doubt that the unknown author thought to himself, "Let's use my poetic license to write this with some capital letters." And I don't know you came to the conclusion that it's okay to use bad punctuation just because this is math-related. Are there now entire fields of knowledge that are exempt from standard English? Per WP:GOOGLE, repeated usage does not make that proper usage of the apostrophe.  Reywas92 Talk  21:33, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with PrimeHunter that "Sift the Two's and sift the Three's" is acceptable in that form. We do not say "Sift (or Strike) the twos..." which would be silly because there is only one two. We postulate by implication that there is a whole family named Two and another named Three, in the same way that the family Smith comprises a plurality of relatives. Family names are capitalised. The apostrophes in Two's and Three's make it unambiguous that the -s endings are genitive (posessive) endings (and not part of the names). All this is standard English without eccentric grammar. No only is there no need to invoke poetic license, the motivation for the quatrain is mnemonic functionality and not poetic artistry. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 19:14, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Again, I doubt the unknown author was thinking, "Well, two is actually a family, so I should capitalize it." It is probably that way because the poem uses the first line as the title, thereby capitalizing Twos and Threes. So if you were writing, would you close it with "Sincerely, the Smith's"? That's wrong. Yes, there is only one two, but it implies that numbers divisible by two are also in the two family. Sift the Two family, and sift the Three family, with multiples of each number assumed to be in that family. What would it imply ownership of? That makes no sense. I read it as "Sift the two and multiples of two and sift the three and multiples of three." It makes little sense to show possession without an object.
 * Reywaz92 you forgot to sign your post. Your speculation that the first line of the quatrain should be capitalised because it is also the title has no merit because 1) if that were the case both "sift"s would be capitalised which they are not, and 2) it is not usual to give a mnemonic a formal title. Your refutation of the letter salutation "Sincerely, the Smith's" is a strawman fallacy because no one suggests that it should be a letter. The version "Sift the two and multiples of two..." that you wish to read is another satisfactory explanation but it is not what is quoted here. Collective relations can be implied sensibly by genitive endings such as in "I like Rembrandt's paintings but not Picasso's". (In your first post above you said "Never use an apostrophe in a plural" that shows the posessive use of apostrophe+s had not occurred to you.)Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:00, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * What would it imply ownership of? That makes no sense. I read it as "Sift the two and multiples of two and sift the three and multiples of three."


 * It can be said that you answer your own question here. Multiples of two = two's multiples.


 * The argument that the apostrophe indicates the possessive is fairly persuasive. Pluralizing is within the realm of poetic license, but strictly speaking it is nonsensical excepting the need to rhyme "Eratosthenes". I fail to see why the plural "implies that numbers divisible by two are also in the two family" while the implication of the possessive, which has the merit of being logically sound, is rejected.


 * Note also in passing that the statement "Never use an apostrophe in a plural" is wrong. Apostrophes are correct when used for the plurals of single lowercase letters (as in "p's and q's"), numerals, abbreviations, and short words which may need them for clarity (as in the plural of the noun "do").


 * Yours needing to get out more, 86.44.33.122 (talk) 20:22, 31 March 2009 (UTC)


 * According to standard style, apostrophes may be used to indicate the plural of numerals but not of number words. This would only be acceptable in a quotation, and if you look at the referenced sources (or at least, the one that isn't a dead link) it does not use the apostrophes. That said, it doesn't affect comprehension and so I don't care too much either way. Dcoetzee 00:52, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Dcoetzee can you clarify the difference you mention by giving examples? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 23:04, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Description of poem
The poem doesn't "replicate the essence" of the sieve. "Replicate" suggests it somehow follows the same process, which it certainly doesn't (it would be cleverer if it did). Neither does it describe anything that could reasonably be called the essence of the algorithm. It merely gives a vague idea of the process that's recognizable if you are familiar with the sieve. The description in the article sounds like unnecessary verbiage. 85.181.121.175 (talk) 11:34, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Euler's Sieve
Euler in his Proof of the Euler product formula for the Riemann zeta function came up with a better version of the sieve of eratosthenes in which each number was eliminated exactly once.

This runs as follows. We start with the sequence of natural numbers

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35...

we then multiply each member of this sequence by two and remove from the original sequence to obtain

1  3   5   7   9    11    13    15    17    19    21    23    25    27    29    31    33    35...

we then multiply each member of this sequence by three and remove from the working sequence to obtain

1      5   7        11    13          17    19          23    25          29    31          35...

we then multiply each member of this sequence by five (the first number after one) and remove from the working sequence to obtain

1          7        11    13          17    19          23                29    31            ...

Each member of the working sequence we remove is removed exactly once unlike the original Eratosthenes algorithm. If we continue with this process indefinately we will be left with just the number one in our working sequence, as in the Proof of the Euler product formula for the Riemann zeta function.

If however we store the eliminated prime numbers as they arrive in a queue and combine them with the working sequence when we have exceeded the square root of the upper limit of our range, we have the desired sequence of prime numbers. Of course we must also eliminate the remaining number one in our working sequence.

Zfishwiki (talk) 00:08, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

This algorithm is I believe essentially equivalent to that described in Talk:Sieve_of_Eratosthenes, except that primes as they are discovered are now eliminated from the working sequence. However where that counted as new research, my algorithm is based on the Proof of the Euler product formula for the Riemann zeta function. I have therefore stuck as closely to Euler's algorithm as closely as possible

Please let me know whether this should be included in the original article. If so I think we should delete the reference to starting with the square of the working prime when eliminating further composite numbers, as although increasing the efficiency of the algorithm, it does not do so as efficiently as the algorithm here described does.

Zfishwiki (talk) 00:08, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Okay I have taken it upon myself to add this section to the article, in the absence of any discussion of it after seven days. My reason's for doing so are -:


 * Verifiablility: That the algorithm is correct can be verified by consulting the Euler proof article.
 * Neutral point of view: The algorithm is fundamental in being the only one to eliminate composite numbers once and only once. It therefore deserves to be added to the article, as the article needs to include all important information about the algorithm to be balanced.
 * No original research: The algorithm was known to Euler and therefore is not original.

Zfishwiki (talk) 23:32, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The algorithm as described fails to detect that 2 is a prime. Please correct this or revert your edit. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:08, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. I have described the algorithm in ordinary language which is easy to understand, rather than be excessively formal. I believe most people would understand that when I said we eliminate the prime numbers as they arrive and store them in in a queue, the number two would be included in this queue.

The first stage of the algorithm is to multiply the sequence by two (the first number after one to be explicit) and remove these numbers from the original sequence. I fail to see how this is any different from my treatment of the primes three and five. Common sense would indicate that it is to be treated in the same manner.

If I were to define my argument in a more exact fashion I believe this would reduce its readability and thus the value of the article.

Zfishwiki (talk) 18:50, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It looks simple to me to start the description by listing the natural numbers explicitly without '1' because it is not a prime. Then the first prime '2' appears immediately and I think the rest of your description works well. But in the present drescription the prime '2' gets lost and nowhere is it said that '2' is kept in a queue. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 19:54, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

If you think you can explain the algorithm more simply, feel free to make the change. However I have taken a lot of care in my explanation and you might find it is harder than you think to improve it.

There is a good reason for including 1 in the working sequence. For example when we multiply by 3, this ensures that 3 is present in the multiplied sequence, and thus 3 is then eliminated from the working sequence. If 1 was not present in the working sequence, 3 would not be eliminated and we would have to complicate the algorithm by introducing some rule to eliminate 3. It is just more elegant mathematically to have the 1 constantly present.

I say towards the end of the algorithm that primes as they are eliminated are stored in a queue and this would include 2, most people know that 2 is a prime number, and 2 is therefore the first prime to be stored in a queue. I could explicitly say that each time we multiply the working sequence by a number, then that number is prime and is then stored in a queue. If it makes you happy go ahead and make that change.

Zfishwiki (talk) 13:31, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I have altered the final paragraph to explicitly say which numbers are to be stored in a queue, and how they are to be combined with the final working sequence. Hope this satisfies your concern.

Zfishwiki (talk) 14:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I have also labelled the primes as they arrive in the example, to avoid any possible confusion. In my opinion this makes the description of the algorithm more fussy, but that is just my opinion.

Zfishwiki (talk) 14:29, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It is unnecessary to visualize an invisible queue of collected primes when we can show primes being identified in place. I propose the following description:

A) Start with all the natural numbers except '1' that is not a prime. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35...  ^ B) The leftmost number is prime. Multiply each number in the list by this prime and discard the products. 2 3  5   7   9    11    13    15    17    19    21    23    25    27    29    31    33    35...    ^ C) The number after the previous prime is also a prime. Multiply each number in the list starting from   the latest prime by the latest prime and discard the products.  2 3   5   7        11    13          17    19          23    25    27    29    31          35...        ^ Repeat C) indefinitely. On each repetition a new prime is identified (marked ^) until all the primes in the starting list have been found. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 20:40, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Well this seems to be equivalent to my algorithm, although it does not stick as close to Euler's proof of the product identity, so could be construed as original research. Go ahead and make the change if it makes you happy.

Zfishwiki (talk) 10:34, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Done. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 12:44, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

In Euler's proof we have a mathematical series on the right hand side, and we sift the series in waves until the right hand side consists solely of the term 1. We then rearrange the equation to get the product identity.

I have removed the statement that we are left with a sequence of primes in Euler's proof. If you want to explain how the algorithm relates to Euler's proof, I suggest you say that the primes to the left of the cursor correspond to factors on the left hand side of the equation at each stage, whereas the sequence to the right of the cursor corresponds to the series on the right hand of the equation.

Zfishwiki (talk) 16:45, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay I've made these changes.

Zfishwiki (talk) 17:21, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

The article says that Euler's algorithm is better. It does not say why. It does not give the running time of Euler's algorithm, nor the storage requirement. There is also no specification of the algorithm in pseudo-code. I appreciate that an algorithm is mentioned here that is often not mentioned in discussions about the Sieve of Eratosthenes, but this section would be a lot more useful with the aforementioned information. - ATBS 15Aug09 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.112.25.123 (talk) 11:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The algorithm is better in the sense that each composite number is eliminated once and only once, as described. If done with pencil and paper, I am sure you would agree it cuts out many unnecessary operations. Exactly how you would implement it in a computer program is a moot point, and would probably depend on the features of the programming language you are using. In any case the sieve of atkin would probably beat any variation on eratosthenes. Zfishwiki (talk) 22:11, 16 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Eliminating each number once is not necessarily better - it is just a different feature of the algorithm. "Better" is a value judgement that has been included in the article with no accompanying justification.  Without a statement of the storage and time consumption, I absolutely do not agree that Euler's sieve cuts out many unnecessary operations.  Also, people are interested in time and storage information without having to perform the algorithm themselves on test cases, or analyze the algorithm themselves.  The algorithm would be shown here in pseudo-code, as is standard in Wikipedia articles.  The idea that the existence of a faster sieve makes these issues irrelevant makes no sense.  This article is about the sieve of Eratosthenes, not about the sieve of Atkin. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think that Euler's sieve should probably be given its own page.  If you then think about the content of the current section as a Wikipedia article by itself, you will see just how weak this section currently is. - ATBS


 * Whilst I would agree with you that storage and time consumption are certainly important, and if anybody knows of any published information about such, they would make a valuable addition to the section; I think the actual historic importance of the algorithm is the reduced number of arithmetical operations. If you look at the section Talk:Sieve_of_Eratosthenes, people here have already spent some effort trying to make these improvements in ignorance of Euler's algorithm. It may be the case that the extra bookkeeping operations make this algorithm less suitable for computerisation than the original algorithm, but I would still say it is important enough to warrant a section here.


 * As for whether the section deserves it's own article. Maybe so if one can prove that it is more efficient than the original algorithm, and cite your sources to that effect. Certainly the level of information given at the moment would not warrant an entire article and I think the balance given here of a short mention in the eratosthenes article is sufficient. But if anybody wants to add pseudocode and complexity information, so that we can expand it into an article, I have no beef about that. But if we do so, there should be at least a link to this new article in the original article.


 * I have already made a small change to the introduction to the section to define 'better'. Zfishwiki (talk) 18:56, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure I agree with the present expansion of the explanation of Euler's algorithm. Whilst the former explanation was probably too concise, the present one is too unwieldly. There is no need to calculate all the multiples at each stage; we can stop when we have exceeded the upper range, and therefore we only need to print the preformatted multiple list up to the upper range in our description.

I won't make this change because I prefer the description given at the top of this section, which is closer to Euler's proof of his identity. I'll leave it to someone else to make the change if he wants to!

Zfishwiki (talk) 00:45, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

From the description I get the idea that Euler's Sieve only remove's numbers that are the factor of 2 primes. For instance if I understood correctly then on the first run we remove the multiples of 2, then the multiples of 3 (which removes 9 because 3*3 = 9). Then we remove all the multiples of 5, 5*5 = 25, 5*7 = 35, 5*11 = 55 ... we have missed 45.

Please correct me if I'm wrong and remove the disputed notice I've attached. Thanks Genjix (talk) 18:41, 22 June 2010 (UTC)


 * You are wrong. Euler's Sieve removes numbers that are the product of a prime p and a number >= p which is still in the sieve at that time. This number has no prime factors below p, and may or may not be prime itself. In when point C) is reached, the numbers >= 3 still in the sieve are 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, ... The numbers that are then removed by p = 3 are 3×3, 3×5, 3×7, 3×9, 3×11, 3×13, 3×15, ... This removes (among others) 3×3 = 9 and 3×15 = 45. When we get to p = 5, the number 9 has already been removed so unlike the Sieve of Eratosthenes, we don't have to remove/mark/check 5×9 = 45 a second time. Euler's Sieve removes a composite number when we get to its smallest prime factor, and then the composite isn't considered when we get to its larger prime factors. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:25, 23 June 2010 (UTC)


 * ok, my bad. I didn't realise that the numbers are removed after building the sieve. i.e 3*5 removes 15 so we never end up doing 3*15. I will add this minor clarification to the main article. Genjix (talk) 13:22, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Implementation of Euler's Sieve as a depth first search on a directed tree
It's possible to view the positive integers as the vertices on a directed tree where the edges are multiplication by prime numbers. This implementation is typically slower than the sieve of eratosthenes, but it is very easy to adapt it to calculate phi and other functions : -- Nic Roets (talk) 23:14, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

C Implementation
I believe the algorithm shown in C is an implementation of Eratosthenes' sieve, not Euler's sieve. It visits each multiple of each prime found, not only the products of the prime with values still left in the list. However, it is listed under the section for Euler's sieve, which is misleading. --76.191.195.184 (talk) 23:19, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Confirmed -- Nic Roets (talk) 10:27, 27 December 2010 (UTC)