Talk:Sigma Nu/Archive 1

Chapter List
Do we really want to have the full chapter list on the main fraternity page? Could we expand the main article and move the chapter list to a subpage? Letoofdune 04:31, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

It's not a good idea to have a chapter list using tables. The size for this article is already quite lengthy -- † Ðy§ep§ion † 20:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Bob Graham a Sigma Nu?
Was Bob Graham a Sigma Nu or a Phi Beta Kappa? On this page it says Sigma Nu, but on the Bob Graham page it states that he was a Phi Beta Kappa. Needs clarification.

PBK is an academic honor society and is not mutually exclusive with Sigma Nu or any other Greek-letter social organization. SuperNova 07:27, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Changes to style
Why is almost everything that I have done constantly being reverted? Love Truth and Honor are being hightlighted because they are the central tenets of Sigma Nu's philosophy. --Scaife 19:18, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * 1) I've certainly not reverted "almost everything" you've done &mdash; only a couple of instances of this sort of purplish typography.
 * 2) The use of bold, italics, and capitals in this way is stylistically poor, and unnecessary.
 * 3) Please don't misuse "vandalism" in edit summaries; it's a personal attack, and very much frowned on here. --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 19:55, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I changed it right back, sorry about that. I see your point, however I disagree with you. As a caveat your changes should stand as they are the least POV. I am a Sigma Nu and it is hard to be NPOV. Again sorry about the vandalism rubbish, that was my fault I was doing something else and edited the wrong page. --Scaife 20:01, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

That's OK. As an encyclop&aelig;dia article it has to read dispassionately and neutrally, and that can be hard to achieve when it's something you're interested in or value highly. --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 21:47, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Removals
I've removed the huge sections of text from "http://sigmanu.wlu.edu/nhistory.html" as it was all directly taken from that site which clearly states "©2005 Sigma Nu Lambda Chapter. All rights reserved." 68.39.174.238 06:30, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Permission has been granted to use it. -- Scaife    (Talk)  [[Image:Flag_of_Austria.svg|18px|]] Don't forget  Hanlon's Razor  06:52, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Scaife - Just wondering if permission has come from the National HQ or just from the Lambda Chapter? The text of the article very closely mirrors the official national history (not one written by a single chapter), and I just want to make sure we have our bases covered. Thanks! --SuperNova |T|C| 07:34, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * HQ has given permission, since it is the "official" history. I included it in order for it to be expanded on as well. I have several books about the fraternity and hope to do some rewriting in the future. The rewriting has begun in some instances as well. For the record this history, which I had input on, is for all intents and purposes "free use" especially in this context. -- Scaife    (Talk)  [[Image:Flag_of_Austria.svg|18px|]] Don't forget  Hanlon's Razor  08:43, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Perfect! Just what I wanted to hear. --SuperNova |T|C| 20:50, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Creed abandonment discussion
Speaking of the Creed, is this article the place for the ongoing if minor discussion of whether Sigma Nu should abandon its creed? The Creed requires members "to respect every altar of faith built in God's name, by every sincere worshiper to whom, if we cannot give our sympathy, we shall not deny the kindness of our manly silence; and, whatever our creed, to reverence the Christ as the Divine Compassion for struggling humanity," and "to win the love and care of some incorruptible woman," neither of which seems entirely accurate or appropriate for today's Sigma Nu.

[] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Editing (talk • contribs) 13:46, June 8, 2006

What on going discussion? I've never heard of anybody in the Sigma Nu organization demand an abandonment of the Creed. -kyle
 * I've never even heard of that creed. --AaronS 14:39, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Are you a Sigma Nu? If so, I find that somewhat hard to believe -- where do you go to school? If you're not, then I'm not surprised; it's not exactly a famous document outside the fraternity. --SuperNova |T|C| 20:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Flower
Just to make things clear for the person who keeps changing the description of the flower to "Classic five-petaled, wild, white English floribunda", and leaving hysterical messages at my Talk page about it &mdash; the description makes no sense. There are no wild roses of that description; the Floribunda roses are modern garden varieties, not wild. --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 08:06, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, I think the official flower is best described, simply enough, as a "white rose". I'd like to see a citation for any other name. --SuperNova |T|C| 03:37, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * That sounds reasonable (especially as most florubunda roses are not five-petalled, so even the currrent description is faulty); is there an image of the symbol in question? --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 10:03, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * To be quite clear the description as "The Classic Five-Petaled, wild, white English Flordabunda" is clearly stated in the History section of the LEAD 1 material.  It doesn't really matter if it makes sense based on if it exists or not.  The fact of the matter is that is the description that is given by the National Fraternity.  If you like I can even quote the entire section here.


 * I know what the LEAD manual says, but I also know that the conventional description is simply "white rose". That's what's on the crest also. I don't have the Grand Chapter minutes here with me to see exactly what they officially adopted way back when, but I do know the rose bush growing in front of the headquarters building is a descendant of the one that originally inspired the symbol. If the official flower did not exist naturally, there would be no such specimen rose bush. However, in an effort to compromise, perhaps we should include the LEAD description and parenthetically note that it's a white rose, at least until we can cite a source saying otherwise. --SuperNova |T|C| 15:16, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Officer listing
I reverted another edit to the officer listing. As I stated previously, the House Manager is not the 6th-ranking officer in the chapter (according to The LAW of Sigma Nu) -- in fact, house manager isn't even listed in The LAW as an officer. I don't believe it is appropriate to put locally-designated officers in this listing, which is supposed to reflect the entire fraternity. For the same reason, it's probably not a good idea to list members of the Executive Council, because that's something else that varies by chapter. (For example, we have Sentinel on it but House Manager not.) I don't believe Sigma Nu publishes anything saying who should "generally" be on the Council, so we shouldn't generalize here.

DH, it seems that we are brothers, so I really hate to keep reverting your edits, but we have to keep the quality of this and every article on Wikipedia up to certain standards. I hope you'll join me in doing so.

Love, honor, truth --SuperNova |T|C| 15:24, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Bias alert
Needless to say, this article appears to be largely written by fans. For example, this does not belong in Wikipedia:

"Walter Sears devoted much of his lifetime to Sigma Nu, but his name will be remembered best for his beautiful prose work, 'The Creed of Sigma Nu.'"

The Creed seems to be a workmanlike piece of nineteenth-century sentimentalism rather than "beautiful": "to understand that the laws of growth are the laws of God to believe that the melody of birds, the laughter of children the unmeasured sacrifice of motherhood . . ." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Editing (talk • contribs) 13:46, June 8, 2006

I don't know who this "Unsigned" chump is but his editorial opinions on aesthetics has no place in the judgement of the legitimacy of an article. I have no clue who wrote this article but it appears to have gotten most of its information from first hand sources (Sigma Nu International Fraternity) and thus is legitimate. If one can find some kind of "Sigma Nu bashing" source I would recommend they jump in and throw in the source, otherwise quit whining. -kyle

Kyle, you're confusing bias with authority. Mein Kampf is an authoritative primary source as to Hitler's thoughts, but that doesn't mean anyone should believe everything he reads in it. You're right, this unsourced article does look like it came mostly from SNIF -- which is probably why it does not meet Wikipedia standards. Some examples of bias that could be eliminated to improve the article: "they were prompted by the impulses of sympathy and affection for all people, which underlie abiding peace and contentment"; " It was soon to win the respect of all"; "his name will be remembered best for his beautiful prose work, 'The Creed of Sigma Nu'"; 'Every chapter had earned its own way by applying integrity in both purpose and method"; "one of the most meaningful educational initiatives ever undertaken by a college fraternity." Wakonda 19:55, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Matthew F. Maury Connections
Seeking uncommon connections between our Sub Rosa Sigma Nu Founders & the VMI physics chair (faculty mentor) who was a pioneering oceanographer - Matthew F. Maury between 1865 and 1873 ...


 * -- 66.45.149.40 14:47, 23 July 2006 (UTC) Note: Maury Hall, the home of the Naval Science Department at the University of Virginia and headquarters of the University's Navy ROTC battalion, was named in his honor.


 * "Maury River" Navy "Sigma Nu"Lexington VMI
 * KU "Social Network Analysis" keyword engineering skills (KU-SNA-kes)
 * -- 66.45.148.57 14:51, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

65.30.117.192 19:13, 21 December 2005 (UTC) Bob-RJ Burkhart, LCDR-USNR,Ret. Nu Chapter Alumni (N1123) aka "geoWIZard"


 * I don't know that there is any connection. All official SN material considers Gen. Francis H Smith to be the "faculty mentor" type person to the founders. I've never heard of Maury except for here. The coincidence of using "naval ranks" that was recently added (and reverted by me) seems highly doubtful, as only "Commander", "Lt. Commander" and "Chaplain" -- to my knowledge -- are used in any way in the Navy (and exist in other military divisions too). Unless you've got some good evidence to back this up, I don't think we should include it here. --SuperNova |T|C| 20:12, 23 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm relying on both biogeography and social network analysis methods to reassess circles of influence. Please review Maury's Virginia heritage incuding his grandfather - Reverend James Maury who was Thomas Jefferson's teacher (1758-1760) ... I've also factored in VMI's proximity to the Maury River that flows through Lexington, Virginia


 * To get a realistic topographical "sense of place" (in hyperspace) ... Lexington VA to Maury River Confluence, 180.74°TN, 11.37 miles ... please preview this "Hybrid" view of our current Sigma Nu HQ location. --66.45.148.57 13:46, 21 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Given SN's initial subrosa roots, it's plausible Commodore Maury was a VMI Bible Study Group "spiritual mentor" who influenced our founders ethical leadership principles for peer mentoring.
 * Please see leadership learning "Eco-Challenge Courseware" updates posted at Talk:Maury_River
 * Matthew F. Maury
 * Geology: A Physical Survey of Virginia
 * Her Geographical Position, Its Commercial Advantages and National Importance
 * Virginia Military Institute, 1869 - (Same year Sigma Nu fraternity founded)


 * -- geoWIZard-Passports 01:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

My Edits/Reversions
I just removed/edited some revisions made a few weeks ago that I had not seen until today. First, there was a large addition in the lead section about "Rats" and such that was not cited and that I have never heard, despite considerable study of the fraternity's history. I removed it because I doubt its accuracy, and because such a large addition must be cited (even if true). Also, it was far too detailed to be placed before the first section header -- only the brief explanation for the founding should be in the intro, with details being placed in the History section. If someone wants to restore the addition, with a reliable citation, it belongs under a heading.

Secondly, some edits were made to Fraternity Structure that needed fixing. That section should rely only on the International Law of Sigma Nu, rather than on what individual chapters do; it was clear that one addition (describing members of the Executive Council) was chapter-specific as every chapter has its own rules regarding those positions. The edit also clumsily tried to explain the candidate-brother-knight distinction; I've attempted to put this is a form that is informative and useful to non-members.

For future editors (that are also members), please consider that individual chapters do differ in their approach to chapter governance, and this article must reflect the fraternity as a whole. Also, research beyond your chapter's candidate education materials before you make questionable additions to this article. Thanks, and best of luck in continuing to improve this article! --SuperNova |T|C| 10:12, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

How Famous is "Famous"?
Do we have or need some sort of standard for what makes a "famous" alumni? It seems to me that having (or at least being eligible to have) a WP article should be required. As a result, I think we should seriously consider whether "redlinked" people belong here, and -- if not -- remove them.

If you're wondering, I was inspired to bring this up because of the addition of the Kansas Supreme Court judge -- fairly notable, but important enough to list here? I'm doubtful. But I'd like to see a consensus opinion before dropping him or the handful of other redlinks. --SuperNova |T|C| 20:20, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. I think the judge easily qualifies as famous. Why would people read this section of the article? Obviously to find out who Sigma Nu's alumni are. Anything that affects people on a state or national level should qualify.Snuball65 21:10, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Not famous enough actually. You can't have everyone who is successful listed here; it would become massive for each fraternity and group.  Jmlk  1  7  22:26, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Chapters for Famous Alumni?
I like how the alumni for Performing Arts, Literature, and Media have their chapter listed with their name. Can someone try to piece together chapters for the men in the other headings? --SuperNova 07:35, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do. --Scaife 07:38, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and added the political figures -- they're all easy enough to find. The Clarence Kelly link goes to a bishop though; pretty sure it's not the right person. Any ideas if the FBI/Sigma Nu guy has an article yet? --SuperNova 08:41, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

---66.45.149.40 13:21, 23 July 2006 (UTC) Corrected name spelling for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_M._Kelley

Has anybody found out what James Dean's situation was? His bio states he went to Santa Monica College (a junior college) yet he is regularly recognized as a Sigma Nu brother who did not finish college and moved on to acting instead. --CherryCokeNixon
 * From what I understand, he was inducted as a pledge, but somewhere along the way he got into a fight with a member, but was kicked out. Not sure about this though, -- Scaife    (Talk)  [[Image:Flag_of_Austria.svg|18px|]] Don't forget  Hanlon's Razor  17:30, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * James Dean transferred to UCLA from Santa Monica College and pledged Sigma Nu but was never initiated for whatever reason. Some Sigma Nu chapters represent him as a member, while others don't because even though he was at one time affiliated he was never a full-fledged member. -- † Ðy§ep§ion † Speak your mind 18:26, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * James Dean dropped out of college in January of 1951 to pursue his acting career. He dropped out before he was initiated, even though he completed all requirements to be initiated. His technical designation is a Neophyte. I have a pretty good listing of famous alumni and the chapters they came from, and will edit the listing accordingly. --Twoam KΣ 408 Love, Truth and Honor. 23:56, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Recent Additions Regarding "Spiritual Founder"
While I will certainly be the first to praise much of the work user:EOmidi made to the article, I don't at all like the inclusion of Francis Smith as the "Spiritual Founder" of the fraternity...particularly as he is listed in that capacity at the top, but the actual founders of the fraternity themselves are not. While he may have inspired Hopkins to form the organization, he didn't actually form it or lead it himself, so I'd suggest just having the three actual founders in the top box. Are there objections? 16:25, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed
One or more portions of this article duplicated other source(s). The material was copied from: http://www.sigmanu.org/about/history.phpd. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Moonriddengirl (talk) 19:57, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Except the "Terms of Use" of SigmaNu.org explicitly say "Permission is granted to display, copy, distribute, and download the materials on the website for personal or affiliated organizational [...], non-commercial use, provided you do not modify the materials and that you retain all copyright and other proprietary notices contained in the materials." where "non-commercial use" applies to Wikipedia. Therefore, I request that the page be restored to the original deletion state.71.225.111.140 (talk) 06:48, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

I must admit that I agree with reverting back to the original deletion state. If encyclopedic information is already written on Sigma Nu's website, and permission has been given to copy the the information directly for use on a website such as this, I think it should be used. It's either that or someone goes through all of the information and tries to find alternate sources, which seems like a waste of time. As long as it doesn't fail POV, I say revert back. City boy77 (talk) 07:02, 10 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid that we cannot do this. The Wikimedia Foundation's Terms of Use, which govern Wikipedia, are quite clear that we can only incorporate content that is compatible with CC-By-SA, which requires both modification and commercial reuse. This is not a matter of consensus, but Foundation mandate. If the original source modifies their license to one compatible with our own (see the copyright FAQ for a table), then we can use the content. Otherwise, we must treat it just as any other copyrighted source, limiting our use to brief, clearly marked excerpts in accordance with WP:NFC. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:51, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

"shortly after Hopkins witnessed what he considered a hazing ritual by another fraternity"
The future founder of Sigma Nu walked into the ritual of the Alpha Tau Omega Fraternity, which, at the time, involved foot washing. The Sigma Nu's nicknamed them "Blackfeet" and themselves "Whitefeet." It was not hazing...the founders of Sigma Nu were most likely jealous of the members of ATO. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.168.242.20 (talk) 18:36, 31 March 2007 (UTC).

why would the founders be jealous of ATO for washing their feet. thats ridiculous

Do you even know the history of Sigma Nu? Obviously that chump is a Blackfeet! Real Sigma Nu's know why ATO's were dubbed "blackfeet" and its not because they were washing there crappy feet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.179.213.162 (talk) 17:56, 22 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Why do so many people keep using the word "chump" on this discussion board? When did "chump" become a legitimate insult again? What are we, 80? Stop insulting people. Edit for clarity. Edity for equality. Edit for truth. Don't edit for personal regard. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.251.38.214 (talk) 02:20, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

October 2012 - A fresh start
As the article is now a "bare bones" version with only a basic history section, it seems some hard work needs to be done to this article. After viewing the articles of other fraternities among the top 10 largest NIFC members, here is the structure I propose: User:City boy77/SigmaNuArticle Any thoughts? City boy77 (talk) 01:24, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
 * WP:RS would be my only concern, naturally. As for reversion of the members article, that faces the same problem and needs cleanup to boot. Have a shot at getting this one somewhere. --Izno (talk) 01:52, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I second Izno's comment about WP:RS being a concern. Yesterday on the Sigma Nu Facebook page a mention of a drive to contribute to the article was posted. I expressed concern because everything on the www.sigmanu.org website is copyrighted and encouraged them to release information under a CC license (WP:C). But that is not enough to become a featured article, or even a good article. Look at Alpha Phi Alpha and look at the sources, they are from anywhere and everywhere. We need reliable sources from everywhere, not just sigmanu.org. --ChadH (talk) 18:04, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I have found some pretty good sources from The Story of Sigma Nu (A book chronicling the early years of the fraternity) and some of the old Delta magazines. Some copies of the Delta have been digitally added to the website. City boy77 I have already begun to add content in a different format but of course if you feel that it would be better arranged in another way, be my guest. --(Bsnye44 (talk) 16:46, 28 November 2012 (UTC))
 * Both The Story of Sigma Nu, and A Heritage History of Sigma Nu are excellence sources and any expansion of the history should utilize these as a reference until more primary sources can be found. I helped in the writing of the History section and I found that the school paper for VMI, The Cadet, was an excellence primary source. I think the History section as it stands covers the broadest amount of relevant history for use on Wikipedia. Specifics like members and Commanders I believe are superfluous and would not meet the criteria for Wikipedia entries. If you are interested in these I strongly encourage you to read The Story of Sigma Nu as it covers the early years of the Alpha Chapter in great detail. GD1299 (talk) 21:20, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Historical racial segregation
I added a brief paragraph mentioning that Sigma Nu was a whites-only organization (and yes, that was the norm for Southern frats at the time). This was a point of discussion in the media following alum Trent Lott's 2002 praise of Strom Thurmond's pro-segregation policies in the '40s. Lott, who was a chapter president, was apparently opposed to a '64 convention amendment to allow minority membership. The Lott article had a line saying that the amendment was put forth by the Stanford and Brown chapters in 62, but the only source I found said it was Dartmouth and Duke in 64. Additionally, the Dartmouth chapter's page says it left in protest in '60. None of these sources are definitively reliable on their own, so... Any additional, reliable sources would be fantastic, as this seems significant to the frat's history. Grayfell (talk) 01:46, 30 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Stanford voted unanimously to leave the national organization in late 1962 over the issue of discrimination and pledged a Black member in early 1963. From a check in the New York Times, Sigma Nu was one of a group of fraternities facing pressure in the 60s (Alpha Tau Omega, Kappa Alpha Order, Sigma Chi) due to student government and university pressure.  This btw included the seizure of the Colgate chapter house by angry students after shots (apparently blanks) were allegedly fired from it towards a black student in 1968; this chapter apparently had local autonomy at that time to admit non-white students but the national still had a prohibition.    Widening the check shows the Wesleyan chapter left prior to Stanford (Dec. 1, 1962 article, Norfolk, VA, New Journal and Guide).  I suspect a lot of this made only college newspapers or are in the Fraternity archives.  BTW the Dartmouth College Greek organizations page has Sigma Nu leaving in 1963 (the citation  indicates the national didn't remove the rule until sometime shortly before 1986 though that could just be bad wording on the reporter's part).  --Erp (talk) 01:30, 17 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I have a copy of an original letter sent from the Dartmouth chapter in 1952 on this issue. I still have to continue to dig through our chapters resources but they make mention of attempting to remove any discrimination organizationally in Sigma Nu as far back as regional meetings in 1950. (GD1299 (talk) 01:20, 1 April 2015 (UTC))


 * Okay, but make sure that such info is verifiable (WP:V) for people outside of your fraternity before using it in this article. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 22:01, 3 April 2015 (UTC)