Talk:Sign of the horns/Archive 1

Meaning?
One problem with this article; there is a lot of detail on the history of the signs useage (or at least a list of people who have been photographed using it and when that occured) and it's original meaning for warding off the evil eye, but aside from the short list of 'school spirit' uses and it's meaning as an instruction in certain sports at the end there is absolutely no mention of what people today mean when they use it. I think it's safe to say most are not attempting to ward off the evil eye.

The only one I know for sure is that rock/metal fans use it to mean "I like this", rather like a thumbs up sign but more enthusiastic. Mainly at gigs - if you're throwing the horns it means you're enjoying yourself - but it can be used in other situations, especially if a verbal acknowledgement isn't possible. (Random example: If a friend shows you an amusing picture in class, you can't say anything or the teacher would hear and know you're not working, so you throw them the horns instead.)

It could also be worth noting that in certain situations (as above) it's use is preferable to other methods because it's entirely visual. At most rock concerts you have to yell to the person next to you. Speaking to anyone else is impossible and they can't see your face clearly/at all so a hand signal is really the only practical way of letting the band/audience know that you love that song/part of a song/are enjoying yourself generaly. Admittedly people tend to cheer too but it rarely carries as well.

I'm not sure where to edit this into the article however. It might be best to put each meaning under the relevant section. So the above would go into the heavy metal section (but better written), a section could be added to the end of the satanist section to explain what it means to them, and so on. I'd also like to make sure there is some sort of consesus on each meaning before I add anything to the article. (I'm 99% sure the above is what all metal fans mean when they use it, but it is just based on UK concerts and my friends.)

(The 'related signs' section could also use some work since most of what's said there is repeated later on. The entire section about John Lennon is identical to what's written in the music section. I'm not sure where would be the best place to keep it though so I haven't deleted anything yet.) Danikat (talk) 09:42, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree that this has far too much old meaning, and very little modern usage. I consider today's usage to be not exclusively with metal music, but done with any kind of rock music to mean "rock on." I would consider it normal to see someone use the symbol in response to a social situation in replacement of calling something cool, but I don't know how to show a source for this. Can you cite Urban Dictionary? haha. When I am not busy I will probably come back and try to find a source.

In Mexico this sign means your mate is cheating on you, nothing else.Rhollis7 (talk) 04:13, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Baseball players use it to collectively keep count of outs (index finger is one, horns sign is two). They use the horns as oppose to a V sign because it he horns are easier to see from afar. 99.229.50.163 (talk) 14:12, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Rock sign with an extended thumb
Is the meaning the same? Does it refer to something else?

-G Generally that's a gesture made by someone who doesn't know better. In American Sign Language it means "I love you", which isn't a very "rock" sentiment.

165.138.95.59 (talk) 17:17, 4 April 2014 (UTC) Why not? Didn't fans of the Beatles, shout "I love you" to the band members? Although it may not always be intentional, couldn't the ILY sign sometimes be intentional for "I love you" as in the euphoric meaning of I love you from an audience member to the band members? 165.138.95.59 (talk) 17:17, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Obscene Gesture?
This article is in the "Obscene Gestures" category in the box below the article. I believe it would be more appropriate to move it to the "Other Gestures" category. The corna/horns sign has many meanings, in only one mentioned interpretation it is seen as obscene (as a sign of infidelity). It would be necessary to know if the corna's vulgar use predates its superstitious use. Until so it cannot be interpreted as generally obscene. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.230.76.214 (talk) 01:32, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Picture
I think the picture "Berlusconi corna.jpg" is a fake. Look at the differently colored background where the index and middle finger should be. I can't find the original photo anywhere, though, so need to confirm. --Alban 09:28, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
 * No, it is true. Berlusconi himself explained that he was joking with a group of boy-scouts. GhePeU 17:33, 1 November 2005 (UTC) -- Can you post any source for this? --BugEyes 22:26, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

American Sign Language (for Deaf People)
This sign is the American sign for the deaf meaning "I Love You". Look it up and then delete this crap. It is the I,L and U in one hand sign. For goodness sake this is supposed to be an Encyclopedia. [anon)

The american sign language sign has an EXTENDED THUMB, the Sign of the horns has the thumb resting on one of the middle two fingers usually the middle finger. Two: The Initials are I, L, and Y, not I, L, and U.  The "i" in ASL is simply an extended "pinky" finger. The L, is an extended forefinger and an extended thumb. The Y is an extended thumb and extended pinky. Take the Y handshape for "you" and extend the forefinger and you have this sign. In other words, I, L, Y. Contrary to the hyped up website www.jesus-is-savior.com's claim that Helen Keller invented this sign as a reference to her association with occultism, it is very unlikely that she invented this sign. It is more likely that this sign developed at Galludet University by the students there, as the sign was not brought into the hearing mainstream until circa 60's to 70's. In truth, no one knows when or where the I, L, Y sign developed. The I, L, Y, sign and the Horned Sign are NOT the same sign! (someone who forgot to log in, wolfpeaceful) { see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ILY_sign }

Merge
About the merger with Hook 'em Horns: I am against, since the gesture is similar, but the meaning different and totally unrelated. Even the Metal/Rock/Satanist/whatever meaning derives, as stated in the article, from Italian folklore. I think a link is enough.
 * I agree, it's a completely different meaning.--JW1805 18:26, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
 * But that's what a disambiguation page is for, right? Except, then, I guess what is the 'official' world-wide name? —Fitch 19:25, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't see a reason NOT to merge these articles. Even within this article there are different meanings attributed to the sign (partially overlapping), so I don't see why one specific meaning should have it's own article. And speaking of an official world wide name: why would there be one? Seems like everyone calls it something else, but it's still the same sign. RagingR2 14:01, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Article Title
I am not convinced by the move from Mano Cornuto. Google hits for that seem to reliably point to information on the gesture According to Bablefish, "mano cornuto" means "cuckold hand", which is consistant with usage, "mano cornuta" means "horned hand", and "corno", not "corna" means horn, and "corni" means horns. I don't know Italian, but my sese from Google is that "mano cornuto" is most associated with this gesture. —BenFrantzDale 03:22, 1 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Hi, "Mano cornuto" is indeed a common misspelling in English and German. However, "Mano" is definitely a feminine word (from Latin's fourth declension, manus, -us), and therefore its adjectives have to be of the correct gender (cornuta is feminine, cornuto is masculine). Babelfish' translation is literally correct, but does not make any sense in Italian. The origin of the "mano cornuto" misspelling are probably a very interesting issue, I would suspect that it first arised in English-speaking countries where spelling is more irregular, and an "a" could get mistaken for an "o". For the record I do speak Italian. --Orzetto 17:12, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm Italian, and I've always called this gesture "corna". While "mano cornuta" is syntactically correct, no one I know calls it that way. "Mano cornuto" is clearly wrong. Mushroom 05:09, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Move to Horns sign

 * The title should be "Horns sign". This is correct english name for all types of such gesture. The current article is too much based on the italian interpritation of gesture. Garret Beaumain 09:03, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps it should be called the "evil eye" sign as that is what it is worldwide in most connotations. Just a thought. UB65 12:32, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

New picture?
I just removed the clay sculpture picture since it didn't provide anything new. While Jeremykemp did a great job making a bunch of hand gesture pictures, I would like to see a new leading image. The current one looks like it was taken by the same person doing the gesture and is the back of the hand. An ideal picture would be fairly close up of a famous metal artist in a performance. A crow at a concert showing the horns (correctly) could also be a good; either of these would show its cultural significance. Alternately, an old drawing of the gesture would suggest its long history. &mdash;BenFrantzDale 16:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Origin of the Corna
The claim that Gene Simmons (or anyone else) "invented" the symbol in 1977 is simply inane. The 11th Series of the "Wacky Packages" issued by Topps Chewing Gum company in 1974 clearly shows the gesture. It was sufficiently well-known at that time that it could be used for a humorous purpose. The Wacky Package in question is the "Cult 45" package from the 11th Series. Here's a link to an excellent image of the sticker: http://www.wackypackages.org/stickers/11th_series/cult45_small_smaller_images.html

Lark

Gene Simmons is such a liar saying that he "invented" the corna in 1977. It's been around for a lot longer than that. And here's proof. Take note of John Lennon's hand.

Well, Gene Simmons said, he invented it (1977), as does Ronnie James Dio (who replaced Ozzy Osbourne as Black Sabbath Lead Singer in 1978 - which in return makes it unlikely he "invented" it before Gene did). Wouldn't it be best, to just say, both claim to be the "inventors", but it can't be tracked back to neither of them.

--92.228.154.63 (talk) 01:47, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Since the hand sign was made by Count von Krolock in The Fearless Vampire Killers in 1967 (time code 1:31), it seems unlikely that either Dio or Simmons invested it ten years later. Just sayin'. -- 76.104.61.84 (talk) 03:51, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Variants
Hey, maybe I'm old or out of it or both, but where I come from, when I was a kid (in the 50s) the gesture was used in response to a statement whose veracity one wished to challenge - in other words, it simply means "bullshit."

Isn't this the same gesture used by members of the Salvadoran gang Mara Salvatrucha (MS-13)? Akira 18:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Interesting.... You're referring to the variant of the corna done with both hands, referred to as "too much metal for one hand" in the main article, specifically what I'll call the "South American sub-variant", done with index fingers instead of pinkies. Here's an article about the afore-mentioned gang that includes a picture of a MS-13 member's tattoos showing the gesture on his chest:


 * [Hispanic gang sets up in Vancouver: Vancouver Province, March 16, 2006: http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=b0ae9414-d9ec-4100-b736-32e84d2f9694]
 * --BugEyes 23:09, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't spider-man use this gesture? anon 07:36, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * That's reversed, pointing to the ground. And I think he stretches the thumb too. Anyway, it might be mentioned. --Orzetto 10:50, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I believe Spider-man's gesture is due to his having the middle and ring fingers pushed into his palm to unleash his web which is contained in a device in his wrist.68.110.179.53 08:04, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Spider-man enjoys music even though hes out fighting crime. Spider-man uses this hand symbol and says that hes "web-slinging" as an excuse. We all know hes actually a metal fan. In Flames, At The Gates and The Haunted to be specific. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.172.126.244 (talk) 15:40, 27 December 2006 (UTC).
 * His thumb is extended, so it's not the corna. Therefore what the article says about Spider-Man using this gesture is incorrect. LycanFury09 (talk) 21:45, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Puzzled serendipity
--Reading this article (for reasons unclear even to myslf), I was surprised that the offensive or insulting variant of this gesture was not mentionned. Growing up in Eastern Ontario and Quebec (Canada) in the 70s and 80s, kids used a similar gesture basically to insult or offend at a distance. It was done with the palm facing toward you, so that you were showing the victim the back of your closed hand with the two fingers pointing up. It was sometimes accompanied by an upwards shoving gesture and a grimace, much as you see with the Finger (gesture). I learned this gesture before I ever saw anyone use the finger, and always understood it to mean "f*ck off": it was the rudest gesture I knew, and I considered it too crude to use myself (although no saint, really). When I later learned of the Mediterranean corna, I assumed it had evolved from this "casting and warding of the evil eye" into a general rude insulting gesture (only with the hand flipped around). I was quite surprised therefore when this "heavy metal" gesture became commonplace in the 80s, first with Sabbath fans, then just about everyone connected to rock music. I also noticed that the gesture I describe above soon fell into disuse, to be formally replaced by the Finger (gesture), which I always thought of as an American import, regardless of Trudeau (see Finger (gesture)). Am I the only one who remembers this and could it have had only a limited regional use?

Also, later in Quebec (again in the 80s), a French (from Europe) gesture became popular, which uses a crooked-arm, upward-thrusting motion with the fist, a motion violently stopped with a slap of the other hand against the biceps of the arm with the fist. This gesture quite graphically (and gallically I might add) means "up yours", but I always thought the motion was similar to both the gesture I remember from childhood and the "finger" salute.--BugEyes 22:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Heavy Metal Sign
I've always heard that it gained popularity and became a "fixture" in hard rock concerts after Dio strted doing it. The other may have done it as well, but it 'took off" after Dio made it popular. Dantali (talk) 19:23, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

It is stated that Gene Simmons may have invented the sign for the album "Love Guns" in 1977. However, in the Frank Zappa concert of the same year, featured in the film Baby Snakes, several people can clearly be seen making the sign. Perhaps someone with more information can do someting?

I have a live video from the "Rock And Roll Over" tour (Japan, 1977) and Gene can be clearly seen making the gesture during "Firehouse" ("With your endless dedication"). --Alvabass 20:03, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

The use of the gesture in rock music must have started earlier than described here. Also at Woodstock, at least one person can be seen on film making the sign (I saw it in the extra material of the blu-ray edition during a Jefferson Airplane song). I'm not denying that one of the afore-mentionned made the gesture more popular but it has been introduced earlier. 91.1.226.223 (talk) 18:27, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

The Breakfast Club

 * In the 1985 movie The Breakfast Club, the principal, Mr. Vernon (played by Paul Gleason), uses the corna as an analogy, stating, "You mess with the bull, you get the horns," a Texas Longhorn reference.


 * Wrong.


 * 0:07:53 -- Mr. Vernon says to John Bender "Don't mess with the bull young man, you'll get the horns." and DOES NOT show the corna.
 * 0:20:05 -- Mr. Vernon shows the corna, but does not say anything related to his hand, to bulls or horns.

Also, there doesn't seem to be a direct Texas Longhorn reference. -- Sy / (talk) 03:47, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Although initially a sign for "two months" in the Breakfast Club, the sign of the horns was connected to Mr. Vernon saying, "Don't mess with the bull young man, you'll get the horns." In another John Hughes film, Some Kind of Wonderful (1987), the character, Watts, played by Mary Stuart Masterson, says to the car parkers after beating them in dice, "Mess with the bull, you get the horns," while making the sign of the horns.

http://www.somekindofwonderful.org/movie/trivia.html -- http://tincar.blogspot.com/2007/11/mess-with-bull-you-get-horns-movie.html -- 174.28.14.124 (talk) 17:38, 25 April 2014 (UTC) Gonzo

Satanism
Well, I've never seen Satanism and popular culture together before. But the sign is ubiquitous throughout different strands of Satanism. In LaVeyan Satanism, it should be noted it is done with the left hand. I really wish I could give an appropriate citation, but I cannot remember which book(s) LaVey went into this, and he was never fond of indexes; unfortunately. I would recommend asking a Satanist wikipedian, as they would probably know. Khirad 04:43, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It does not seem to have any source except of a single photograph and a wax statue. LaVey never wrote anything about this sign. It is just a retrospective urban legend that arose when the sign became popular in heavy metal subculture.Garret Beaumain (talk) 18:59, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Garret's claims are laughable. LaVey did write about the sign and there's video footage (e.g. the documentary "Satanis") of him using it long before people had even heard of "heavy metal". Looks like I'll have to dig up the citations and add them. WillieBlues (talk) 17:18, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

I seiously do not think that if you use this sign at a metal concert that it automaticlly means that its the devil's horns and that your acosiated with the devil its just the sign for metal music. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.143.2.62 (talk) 05:41, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I've never met anyone who used the sign and would deny that (at least within rock/metal subculture) it was originally intended to be devil horns and a reference to the link (real or imagined) between heavy metal and satanism. However it goes almost without saying that using it does not mean you're a satanist, it's just derived from that (it's too wide spread for everyone who uses it to be a satanist). It's use at a concert or by a rock/metal fan in other situations esentially means "I like this". (eg. I do it when I'm impressed by something said in a movie, because it's silent so it won't disturb people.) I know almost nothing about satanism but it honestly wouldn't suprise me if the signs use by satanists was actually derived from it's use and interpretation within heavy metal (meaning it came to mean devil horns so satanists adopted it). Danikat (talk) 09:14, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

I wish I had a good link but I know it IS used as a satanic symbol SOMETIMES. I have seen it used at certain PG rated satanic gatherings so there is some connection even if it was formed after it was introduced to metal.64.119.57.59 (talk) 15:26, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Why isn't there anything about satanism? The devil horns is with no doubt a satanic sign. Once again, Wikipedia shows that it is full of ignorants. Yes, using the devil horns doesn't make you a satanist. But the devil horns are satanic and there should be some information on that. It's more important than Ozzy Osbourne and Dio..--188.27.126.43 (talk) 21:28, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Find a reference and add it. —Ben FrantzDale (talk) 12:21, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

LaVey's black mass recording has him saying "I bid thee rise and give the sign of the horns" - too lazy to add this to the article myself, but there's a reference for you. This was roughly a decade before the rise of modern metal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.174.255.77 (talk) 10:51, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Rock and Heavy Metal Music
The whole section looks like it was copied and pasted. Inhumer 20:56, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

This sentence was so poorly written its meaning was indecipherable: "Interestingly Coven toured on the bills with many groups as Jimmy Page's Yardbirds, the then glam rockers Alice Cooper and the Vanilla Fudge, featuring Carmine Appice, older brother of Vinnie Appice of Dio." It also seems completely irrelevant to the topic of the entry, so I am removing it. 163.231.6.87 (talk) 15:26, 29 December 2008 (UTC)Max

Sign of Bowman in Revelation
"Another reference to the sign relating to Satanism and Christianity is the mention that, after the rapture, agents of Satan "bearing two fingers up in The Sign of the Bowman" will roam the earth, attempting to bring people left behind into Satan's fold through performing miracles and healing."

Yeah, Rev. 16:14 says they perform signs/miracles to win people over, but they don't make the corna. I suspect this is little tidbit is vandalism, but after reading through Revelation a few times I'm sure it's at least a lie, so I'm deleting it.Penguinwithin 21:17, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Corna / Illuminati assertion
I'm removing this section:


 * Conspiracy theorists claim a similar sign is used for Freemasonry, the Illuminati, or Satan worship, by extending the thumb outward. This sometimes confused with the Hook 'em Horns sign.

Reason being that I visited the source because I was interested in the assertion, only to find that the linked page doesn't even mention the sign. It's just a summary of believed Illuminati history. 72.205.55.200 15:51, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Gene Simmons
I have moved the entire section about Gene Simmons here:

''Gene Simmons claimed to have first been influenced by the sign when attending a Heavy Metal show, the band were 'Sister' Who included future Motley Crue Bassist Nikki Sixx and the lead singer was the future W.A.S.P. lead singer and eccentric showman, Blackie Lawless. Blackie was described as being shown extending his little finger and index finger. Gene Simmons used this sign on his album front cover of KISS' 1977 album Love Gun. On the other hand, Gene Simmons has, even before the Love Gun LP, shown this sign on stage or during photo sessions (for example Japan, April 1977). The common cited examples however show Simmons making the gesture with the thumb extended, which is rather a different gesture which means "I Love You" and had been used well before this, however this claim is disputed. ''

Ronnie James Dio in an interview for the movie "Metal: A Headbanger's Journey" also disputed Gene Simmons' claims saying "...although Gene Simmons will tell you that he invented it but then again Gene invented breathing and shoes and everything you know."

... as it is really muddled and not all that relevant. Bottom line: Gene Simmons flashed the mano cornuta sign on the cover of an 1977 album -- big deal. If you want to move this section back to the article please rewrite it first, thanks. Maikel (talk) 14:11, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Simmons is not making the American Sign Language gesture for Love as his thumb is not extended. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Robtj966 (talk • contribs) 07:03, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * As I said above, since the hand sign was made by Count von Krolock in The Fearless Vampire Killers in 1967 (time code 1:31) in an explicit reference to Lucifer, it seems unlikely that either Dio or Simmons invested it ten years later. -- 76.104.61.84 (talk) 03:56, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Given that the gesture that Simmons attempted to trademark is NOT the horns gesture, but a different gesture made with the thumb extended, why is it even being mentioned here? WillieBlues (talk) 17:13, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

other way round
The top pic shows the sign 'backwards' to how I've usually seen it used in satanism, metal, etc, where the palm is forward as on the userbox shown here User:PEiP. I've never seen it the opposite way around. Not questioning that it is, but think we should mention it's used both ways. Sticky Parkin 00:37, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

-- Agreed, especially since Ronnie James Dio popularized its use facing the other direction, as demonstrated further down the page.


 * I've seen this gesture used upside down at a lot of Goth shows. It's been explained that it is either used to signify "vampire fangs" or to say "metal sucks". Could just be regional, but could be worth mentioning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.181.247.2 (talk) 01:24, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

You are totally correct: The real "cornuto" sign shows the back of the hand and has nothing to do with satanism. Probably Americans and English people don't know it. Even in Europe many don't know it, it's a quite Italian thing. --178.197.226.232 (talk) 14:29, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Metal
This part/ "Flipping the horns is a serious gesture, and the more serious metal heads insist it may only be used in the appropriate situation, or for an appropriate band. Overall, many within the metal head community feel the gesture is being cheapened and commercialized. Also, many metal heads claim that since flipping the horns originated in heavy metal, using it for rock or any other genre of music is inappropriate. There is even a popular Facebook group "Do Not Use the Horns Unless You are Metal", which states that (outside of Texas Longhorns events) "If your head is neither banging nor thrashing, do not use the horns!"

Rock fans often use the hand gesture in electronic conversations, for group identification. It's usual to express it with the letters "l", "m" and "l" put together (other variations include using "\", "m" and "/" to make \m/). The formed \m/ symbol supposedly reminds one of the arrangement of the fingers in the actual gesture. Many variants may be used, all of which represent the index finger and little finger with long vertical characters, with the middle finger and ring finger represented with smaller characters, and sometimes with the addition of a character representing the thumb or even a complete ASCII face.

This has reached the point of parody, where something which might be considered "metal" could be (possibly ironically) saluted with the horns or marked with the ASCII equivalent. Something considered extremely "metal" might be referred to as "too metal for one hand" and saluted by placing the fists together with both pinkies raised - both hands forming one large "goat". This would be written \mm/ in ASCII." This is entirely original research. The first paragraph is just trash; no one cares if there's a Facebook group about it.  The second and third paragraphs are kind of irrelevant, but I'll leave them for now

Meemat (talk) 04:25, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I've deleted the entire set of paragraphs; they have no sources and don't add to the credibility of/information in the article. Meemat (talk) 20:31, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The lack of citations is certainly troublesome, but some small portion of the content was actually valuable. As of the current revision, the history, and names of the horns are covered, but there's no information whatsoever explaining meaning and application. If anyone can find reliable citations covering meaning and application, the article would probably benefit greatly Merreborn (talk) 22:27, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Ozzy
"The previous singer in the band, Ozzy Osbourne, was rather well known at using the "peace" sign at concerts, raising the index and middle finger in the form of a V." - Wasn't Ozzie giving a v sign rather than a peace sign?--MacRusgail (talk) 18:03, 25 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Meaningless question.
 * The term "V sign" covers the handshape, i.e., the way the fingers are positioned with respect to the palm:
 * hand gesture in which the index and middle fingers are raised and parted, while the other fingers are clenched. (V sign, lead para)
 * The way the hand is positioned and moved or held can be anything at all, resulting in different gestures. Different (sub)cultures do different things with it. (V sign usage)
 * The meaning of the resulting gesture depends on the (sub)culture. And the same gesture can have different meanings in different groups, just as different languages can have words that sound or look the same but have completely different meanings: German "vier", meaning 'four', sounds like English "fear"; Spanish "papa" means 'potato'.
 * Thnidu (talk) 16:40, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Source
I haven't the time right now to stick sources in this article, but here is a great source I ran across in a bookstore, luckily, it is in the public domain. The link below is to a public domain edition on Google Books, it links to the section on the mano cornuta.

TuckerResearch (talk) 23:14, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

"Bullshit"
In Toronto, in the early 1970s, probably 1973 or 1974, when I was in public school and the peace sign was still ubiquitous, I was taught in the schoolyard that this alternative to the ever-present peace sign meant "bullshit". An earlier commenter up above notes having used it this way in the 1950s.

So it was confusing to me when rock fans first started shouting "bullshit", in effect, at their favourite bands.

Varlaam (talk) 18:32, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

In Russia, horns sign you
I just came across the fact that this has another regional meaning in Russia: I got the impression of it's meaning, but not enough to add an entry. Someone more familiar should check out Коза (жест) and add an entry to the "Regional Culture" section. Horn.imh (talk) 21:51, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

This article mixes two different signs
It's important to know that the Italian curnuto sign shows the back of the hand and has a similar meaning as the finger. It has nothing to do with Rock concerts or satanism, where the front of the hand is shown. --178.197.226.232 (talk) 14:33, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

"Rock On 2"
Is the graphic design of the logo of a sequel to a fairly well accepted, average grossing movie really notable enough to include on this article? 77.96.196.250 (talk) 14:20, 14 October 2016 (UTC)