Talk:Signs and wonders

Power Evangelism question
In Power Evangelism, Wimber doesn't state that only through manifestation of the Holy Spirit can the Gospel be communicated, but rather that the manifestation (signs and wonders) acts as an emphasis; that the gifts of the Holy Spirit were given to us for doing things like communicating the Gospel, so why not use them? [unsigned entry]

Third Wave
Should not Third Wave of the Holy Spirit redirect to Neocharismatic churches? Flofor15 (talk) 02:57, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Time to begin dealing with longstanding issues
I created a new lede today, based on one published article, moving the earlier WP:VER- and WP:OR-violating material elsewhere (see following).

I am no scholar on this, but I am dedicated to only creating text based on sources, and the CT editorial cited—at the passing of Wimber—contained good summarising content as a start.

To further move this mess toward being encyclopedic, I moved other unsourced, WP:OR lede material into a separate section, for later sourcing (or deletion).

And I move this full, unsourced, and completely indefensible section here, for rewriting based on SOURCES (or, allowing it to die here the death that unverifiable material deserves):

The beginnings of the movement
The recent emerging emphasis on signs and wonders began in 1981 when John Wimber delivered a lecture at Fuller Theological Seminary entitled, “Signs, Wonders and Church Growth.”  From 1982 to 1985 Wimber taught the course, “The Miraculous and Church Growth.”  The story of this course that many in the Pentecostal, Charismatic and Neocharismatic traditions would consider historic is told in Wagner’s Signs and Wonders Today, published in 1983.

Prior to John Wimber, most healing ministries were tied to their leaders. A distinctive feature of Wimber’s teaching was what some have called the “democratization” of healing. From 1981 onward, a new “Signs and Wonders” movement was underway with an emphasis on equipping and empowering the laity to minister in the power of the Spirit. Wimber’s works include A Brief Sketch of Signs and Wonders through the Church Age, Signs and Wonders and Church Growth,  Power Evangelism,  Power Healing,  Power Encounters  and Power Points. John Wimber credited Trevor Martin’s Kingdom Healing  as a significant item in the formation of his own theology.

As the Signs and Wonders movement began to emerge from Wimber’s teaching, dialogue on manifestations of the Spirit became more active. The 1982 meeting of the Society for Pentecostal Studies in Pasadena, California focused on the gifts of the Spirit. S. S. Schatzmann, who had previously released The Pauline Concept of Charismata in the Light of Recent Critical Literature in 1981, presented his work to the society. A compilation of papers, entitled, Gifts of the Spirit: Papers Presented at the 12th Annual Meeting of the Society for Pentecostal Studies, November 18–20, 1982 represents the content of the 1982 meeting.

The Wimber lecture, Wagner's '83 book, the 1982 meeting—all of these are historical events for which sources are available, The list of WImbers books here is superfluous, unless individual works are used to make statements relevant to the historical development of the movement. In the same way, the compilation of papers should be cited if it is germane to some statement made in the article—and all references to scholarly material should not be in text, but appear in formal inline citations.

Feel free to move content back into the article, but please respect that this article's flouting of WP conventions for encyclopedic content has gone on far too long, and that bold editing needs to be done for it to be anything more than the current sixth form student essay (and at that, a draft form). Cheers. Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 02:27, 4 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Wimber is not the one who started the "signs and wonders" phrase. It is mention throughout the New Testament and has been evidenced for the past 2000 years, as chronicled in Eddie Hyatt's 2000 years of Charismatic Christianity book. I am starting to do some work on the Wimber article, and will slaso start to work on this one as well. DoctorG  (talk)  13:43, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Wimber or sings and wonders
Why is there so much Wimber content in this article. There is an article already dedicated to him, and attributing this phrase or signs and wonders to him seems very narrow. We need to broaden the scope to include the many other notable people and events that would fit this category, that in itself may be a large list. DoctorG  (talk)  13:43, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Cleanup
I'm going to start doing a little cleanup on this article. If anyone is still actively editing it, please let me know so we don't step on each other. DoctorG  (talk)  00:31, 13 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I think the lead is a lot cleaner now. I think we probably don't need so many references to Wimber as the originator of the phrase, since that is historically innaccurate. Let's talk about that if there is a disagreement. DoctorG  (talk)  00:56, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

It seems the user from IP 159.53.78.144 is removing the need for citations for sections that definitely need them. Please start some constructive discussion here to build some consensus. DoctorG  (talk)  02:35, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Critical response
I think we need to more broadly cover the critical response instead of just showing reactions to John Wimber. We should certainly include some of this content, but also broadly look at criticism of the topic as well. I'll dig around for some more of that content. DoctorG  (talk)  12:45, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Stub Class
Please could you explain why you undid my marking this as a stub here:. The page has less than 500 words and provides very little information. Most of the information is in the lead, and the lead is not a summary of the main. It looks like a stub to me. -- Sirfurboy (talk) 08:10, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't believe it is a WP:stub, but if you want I'll revert. Editor2020 (talk) 18:58, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Merger Proposal
I propose to merge into this page the article Power evangelism. The subject is substantially the same and Power Evangelism could have its own section on this page which would expand and deepen the material here, and broaden its focus beyond John Wimber. The Power Evangelism page is extremely sparse and questionable whether it is notable for an article at all, but would make a good addition to this page, and no information would need to be deleted. The resulting article would have an appropriate size and would allow editors to focus on a smaller number of pages. Please discuss the proposal below and indicate whether you support or oppose merge. -- Sirfurboy (talk) 22:29, 14 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Hi, as the only other recent non IP contributor to this page, do you have a view on the above merger proposal? I don't want to do anything that anyone would have issues with, but it does seem to me that Wimber's Power Evangelism goes hand in hand with his Signs and Wonders ministry. If you think otherwise, I will drop the merge proposal. -- Sirfurboy (talk) 15:43, 18 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Sounds good to me. Editor2020 (talk) 16:06, 18 January 2020 (UTC)