Talk:Simón Bolívar/Archive 1

Freemason
I read that he was a freemason, and that he had complotted to share the power in the independized territories among members of his lodge. --Error 02:54, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
 * He was a member of one of those groups at one point, that's for sure, but I've never read anything that directly suggests that the second part could be true. Doesn't really seem likely that he ever took "freemasonry" seriously, but rather as a status symbol, like many others at the time...as in fact Bolivar eventually ended up making such freemason/mason groups illegal and directly siding with the Church at one point.Juancarlos2004 04:23, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

That comment at the end about Hugo Chavez is really tacked on; it seemed like an afterthought. It would be better to say that many in South America have used the iconic image of Bolivar in a political manner, without regard for Bolivar's personal views on their particular idealogy-because many have done this, and it's not just Chavez. Really the Hugo Chavez jab was random, and ruined an otherwise good article.


 * A lot of people would like to inflict violence on you for making a mind-numbingly inept proposition that Bolivar died from a virus that was not yet discovered (or invented by scientists, depending on your belief).

Venezuelan Ship
There is no WP entry I could find, and no reference in the article, to the Venezuelan sail training ship Simon Bolivar, commissioned in 1980 and still active. This is one of the "tall ships" and I think it should be mentioned, but I don't know enough to write an article on it and I'm not sure where to place a mention in the article. Suggestions? KillerChihuahua 01:28, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Wikiproject Venezuela
I'm looking forward to found the WikiProject Venezuela. I had the idea of creating it when I first made the portal. The project will have the main objective of centrating efforts into a more complete information and a higher quality of the articles in Wikipedia, other media in the sister projects, and the portal itself.

However, the rules say that I should have at least five to ten members willing to integrate and contribute to the wikiproject. So if some of you guys want to join in, then leave me a message, or in this page. I will be back in a few days to see how things are going on.

Go to Wikiproject/List_of_proposed_projects and list yourselves if you wanna join. --Alex Coiro 06:41, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Sources for Chavez saying Bolivar was zambo
He has said this several times. Last time he said it was during his "Alo Presidente No. 248" telecast on Sunday March 4th. I do not know how to list that as a source. I do not know if a source is the telecast itself or if it has to be someone talking about the telecast. If the latter then a source would be any newspaper in Venezuela that reported on his televised address; one such source then would be "El Nacional newspaper, page 2. March 5 2006.El Nacional newspaper, page 2. March 5 2006." If you google "Bolivar era zambo" anyone will find other instances of Chavez saying similar things in the past -already in 2003. You may have to go to a cached page like this one: which transcribes an old speech of him. If anyone wants to know what it is he said exactly this past Sunday, leave a note here and I will transcribe from the newspaper. By the way, as to Chavez sources for his own theory, I believe nobody knows where he gets his knowledge from. Most likely he makes it up. Anagnorisis 22:19, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

By the way, there are no sources for any of the things said in the article, so why when I add something it is removed pending me providing sources? Why not then remove everything until each single piece of information is sourced. Double standards are not nice. Anagnorisis 22:22, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately a cached link is not a very good source. I cannot read spanish so I cannot make out the original source of the cache. If you can find a link, preferably to a newspaper article or transcript of his speech, I will be happy to replace the information and add the reference. Or, if the cached link is to a newspaper, let me know the paper name, issue number, and author and I will use that. Or, if it is a transcript can you possibly give a little more information about the source?
 * Most of the information is sourced from the two links under "External links", however new additions which do not come from these sources need to be sourced also.
 * Please let me know if you have any questions and I will try to answer them! Thanks - KillerChihuahua?!? 23:06, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


 * That one above was just one example. Googling would give more. No, I cannot find a link. However I do not believe that there is a requisite that sources can only come from websites. So, as said above a source is the newspaper. One such source being: El Nacional newspaper, Caracas, Venezuela. page 2. March 5 2006 edition. By the way, please point me in the direction of the policy that says that ALL "new" information that does not come from sources already mentioned in an article need to be specifically sourced. Thanks.  Anagnorisis  00:03, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Beautiful, I will add that. That is perfect. The policy can be found at WP:V. KillerChihuahua?!? 00:06, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I have read that Bolivar was indeed not white although his many portraits depict him as such.

"Bajo de cuerpo; un metro con sesenta y siete centímetros. Hombros angostos, piernas y brazos delgados. Rostro feo, largo y moreno. Cejas espesas y ojos negros, románticos en la meditación y vivaces en la acción. Pelo negro también, cortado casi al rape, con crespos menudos. Las patillas y los bigotes se los cortó en 1.825. El labio inferior protuberante y desdeñoso. Larga la nariz que cuelga de una frente alta y angosta, casi sin formar ángulo. El General es todo menudo y nervioso. Tiene la voz delgada pero vibrante. Y se mueve de un lado a otro, con la cabeza siempre alzada y alertas las grandes orejas." ... "El General es decididamente feo y detesta los españoles"... (Descripción atribuida a Páez, "El General" 1.829, Santiago Martínez Delgado)

Venezuelan Second Republic
I put this in rather than leave it as "Second Venezuelan Workers' and Peasants' Commune",,,,, that must be some mistake yeah??? --  max rspct  leave a message  21:19, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Manuela Sáenz
This article is incomplete without a reference to Manuela Sáenz. JRSP 16:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I fully aggree to JRSP. - Meister 18:01, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Added something about her saving SB from an assassination attempt. She was only mentioned in the bio as a "see also".JRSP 21:43, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Cultural depictions of Simón Bólivar
I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards,  Durova  16:58, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Early life
This article could use something on Bolivar's early years--it almost feels like part has been cut out. Nareek 20:49, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Torch of Liberty?
what's the torch of liberty?! seriously! it's in trivia, and I don't know what it's talking about! Can anyone please explain what the page is talking about when it uses the term "torch of liberty". 68.95.134.248 06:11, 4 December 2006 (UTC)brad

The section about Marx
That section reads like someone's school essay trying to prove Marx wrong, which is pretty much the definition of original research. I don't really see how having it improves the article about Bolivar; the whole section is more about proving Marx wrong than telling about Bolivar. That aside, it needs work- it is still written in a "point-counterpoint" manner which is inappropriate for an encyclopedia article. I've flagged it as OR, but an anonymous IP keeps removing the flag.

I would suggest either removing the section, or give it a serious rewrite so that it's not trying to prove something. --DarthBinky 00:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

diacritic marks
since diacritic marks are used in the article's title, shouldn't they be used everytime Simón Bólivar's name is mentioned? I see alot of Simon Bolivars. Na uf ana :  talk


 * In that case, it should be Simón Bolívar.

190.30.189.7 23:21, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

What's going on here?

 * In 1813, after acquiring a military command in New Granada under the direction of the Congress of Tunja, he led the invasion of Venezuela on May 14. This was the beginning of the famous Campaña Admirable, the Admirable Campaign. He entered Mérida on May 23, where he was proclaimed as El Libertador (the liberator from the Spanish army), following the occupation of Trujillo on June 9. Six days later, on June 15, he dictated his famous Decree of War to the Death (Decreto de Guerra a Muerte). 

So wait, did he start out on the side of the Spanish and then show his true colors? On the one hand he's "the liberator from the Spanish army", on the other nothing explicitly says he was ever on the side of the Spanish... Morgan Wick 09:06, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Nope. I suppose that's just a slightly ambiguous way to say that Bolivar freed the people of Mérida from Spanish rule, and that's why he was named "The Liberator". Juancarlos2004 18:22, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

This article is in need of a cleanup. Scottica 01:37, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

strange technical problem with article
Hi. I'm just wanted to mention that there's something weird going on with the way that this article is being rendered with my browser (Firefox 2.0.0.4 on a PC). Specifically, the section-editing links are getting bunched up and showing up in strange places, moving around as I resize the page. I think it may have something to do with the infoboxes on the right side. - Skaraoke 21:28, 31 May 2007 (UTC

Political legacy
Someone appears to have pasted a section from his freshman paper onto this article and called it an encyclopedia contribution. It's inappropriate through and through, a candidate for deletion. Objections?205.212.72.181 20:12, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Claims Against Bolivar Section
"Latin American revolutionaries have been suspected of being closeted homosexuals [citation needed]"

"Hugo Chavez Frias is also an autocrat with possible homosexual leanings. [citation needed]"

"This is particularly ironic, as the Latino 'strongman' is such an iconic image of masculine power. [citation needed]" Citations needed. These look like sad attempts at vandalism against certain Latin American leaders due to political issues. 69.106.5.142 00:23, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Original research regarding Bolivar's sexual orientation
User:68.204.223.175: You put up text arguing that Bolívar was homosexual, based on historical evidence and inference, not secondary sources. I removed it. You restored it, saying "This is solid research, backed with citations...therefore, it should stay." Solid or not, it is, in fact, ORIGINAL RESEARCH, which is not appropriate in this encycolpedia. See No_original_research. As for the citations, there is just one, to another Wikipedia article, which does not address the argument you make. Llajwa 00:54, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you, not to mention it's written terribly. I also noticed our friend has a bit of a thing for noting homosexuality amongst political figures. Makes ya wonder... -- En dl ess Dan  20:34, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

living Bolivar's descedants in Venezuela
There are several people in current Venezuela who are direct descendants of Simon Bolivar through his siblings. A couple days, I read about Eduardo Mendoza Goiticoa who is one of the Bolivar's descendant, added some key information on Eduardo Mendoza's grandson. The information was erased. would like to know why and this was an extensive and careful research before submitting any changes to it. It was erased in both pages: Simon Bolivar and also Leopoldo Lopez. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nbay3 (talk • contribs) 04:19, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Bolivar ancestry
Nord1, a newbie, has been edit warring to include a section titled "Bolivar's Disputed African Ancestry" and has been reverted by three editors thus far. I am one of them, as his references were not even close to acceptable at the time, and the section had no support and some resistance already, indicating a need for discussion prior to making such a fundamental change to the article. Since then, Nord1 has provided (buried in his or her extensive edits) what appears to be a very reliable source which thoroughly supports the issue and provides a good bit of commentary. I suggest editors of this article read page 259 of Africana: The Encyclopedia of the African and African American Experience. IMO a section is indicated, and input is welcomed on how best to present this information. KillerChihuahua?!? 17:04, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree to desist from reverting any further as well, and granted may be my entry is too long, but please haven't I provided proof enough that this controversy merits mentioning in the article! I mean the encyclopedia Africana (a thoroughly unmarginal source) says the claims of African ancestry are oft-mentioned and worthy of analysis. Please please read the entire entry and the sources given.Nord1 (talk) 22:04, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, someone seems to be ignoring this and has reverted again, and added to, the section. We can protect the article while this content is discussed, or we can try discussing details of the added section and improving it. Which would everyone prefer, or are there other suggestions? KillerChihuahua?!? 23:47, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I restored the modified version of the entry after someone vandalized sanctioned form.216.137.71.180 (talk) 00:17, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * If there is to be an entire section on this claim then it would only be fair to add a section on Bolivar and the many bizarre theories that he was a homosexual as well as the claim that he fathered several bastard children ad well as the claim that he died of AIDS as well as the claim (now put forward by Hugo Chavez) that he was assassinated by the imperialist Yankees. It would only be fair. ALL of these claims, as outlandish, quasi-historical, and referenced as they are would merit inclusion.


 * Why not just leave a nice article to allow people to learn more about this man than weighting the article to favor one or another bizarre claim and its adherents. The biographies of Bolivar are in the hundreds. The number of actual trained historians with an ublemished track record: Mijares, Masur, Salcedo-Bastardo, Ludwig--never claimed any of these bizarre theories.  Imagine for one instant that every imaginable theory about John F. Kennedy was included in the article: it would make established and undisputed historical elements trivial by giving equal weight and space to those who can come up with a written reference.  If you wish to create a NEW entry with your bizarre claim (or your view that Chavez is the second coming of Bolivar) then do so in a SEPARATE article.  Or, let's be fair and put every Tom, Dick, and Harry's theory (whether by a fiction writer like Gabriel Garcia Marquez or by an unknown op-ed writer in some dinky local newspaper in Uruguay). Verdadseadicha (talk) 21:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

This article is short on facts and long on hagiography
This article, I'm sorry to say, is terrible. It reads like it was written by a committee of anti-Castro, anti-Chavez racist exiles. It is encumbered by elitest hang-ups and insecurities that reveal themselves in the writers' obsessions with Bolivar's supposed aristocratic pedigree and blood purity. These concepts and notions are not only distracting and in poor taste, they also do little to make clear the historical and political importance of this individual in Latin American and world history. I repeat this article stinks of rancid criollismo, it needs to be scrubbed clean of this and allowed to present this individual as a human being, not as a central figure in the pantheon of racist Hispanism and creole feudalism.

P.S. Is it any wonder this article, despite the clear importance of the subject, has never been a featured article, the chances of this article receiving a bronze star are nil and will remain so until it has been completely rewritten in encyclopedic fashion. I consider it an embarrassment that an article on a Latin American figure of much less importance, i.e. Mario Vargas Llosa, has been given featured article status, while this article on the Libertador of half a CONTINENT languishes in what can only be described as a victimic condition of historical amateurism/parochialism. 72.221.92.43 (talk) 21:21, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

What the hell that this mean?
The following sentence doesn't mean anything: "After the death of Bolivar in 1830 and the later dissolution of the Gran Colombia in 1831, Bolivar's legacy contributed decisively to the independence of present-day Bolivia, Colombia, Ecuador, Panamá, Perú and Venezuela." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.226.217.121 (talk) 03:49, 29 June 2008‎

I changed it with: "His legacy contributed decisively to the independence of present-day Bolivia, Colombia, Ecuador, Panamá, Perú and Venezuela." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.226.217.121 (talk) 03:59, 29 June 2008‎

Pronunciation of Name among English-speakers
I learned to pronounce Bolivar's name with the accent on the 1st syllable, (both given name and surname) and that is how I would use it if necessary in discussion. Obviously Bolivar is a historical figure who was important enough that people spoke about him in languages other than Spanish, and put up statues of him in cities outside Latin America. The inclusion of the accent, from the original Spanish, indicates that the accent is to be on the second syllable in correct Spanish. How is the name spoken customarily among English speakers in cities that have parks and streets named for him? If the pronunciation remains as I learned it in elementary school 40 years ago, should this be included in the article?Corlyon (talk) 20:21, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.226.217.121 (talk) 10:49, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Last words ?
The most recent edit (at the time of writing) was the addition of a sentence purporting to be Bolivar's last words - according to the edit summary ''"How will i ever get out of this labyrinth?" which is noted in the book Looking For Alaska." However, the quote in "Looking for Alaska" is actually made by one of the characters, from her favorite book "The General in His Labyrinth". Since that'' book is a fictionalised account of his last days, can this quote actually be regarded as verifiable ? CultureDrone (talk) 12:16, 26 September 2008 (UTC)