Talk:Simbi

Why create a page about a Kongo divinity (The name of this article is Simbi) and put up a statue of an Igbo divinity?
Hello,

Why create a page about a Kongo deity and put up a statue of an Igbo deity? Kongo culture is not Igbo culture, nor Yoruba culture, nor Mbundu culture, nor Téké culture, etc.

Here's what User: MiddleOfAfrica says to justify the photo of the Igbo statue (https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mami_Wata_Figure_MIA.jpg#mw-jump-to-license, https://collections.artsmia.org/art/111879/mami-wata-figure-igbo) he/she put up: "It's also a Bantu word" Can he/she tell us which other people from the Bantu language group call Mami wata (mermaid) "Simbi"? Here's what else he/she (User: MiddleOfAfrica) says: "Mami Wata is not solely an Igbo deity" Each people has its own name (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mami_Wata The Igbo name for Mami wata (mermaid) can be found in the article Mami Wata), At no point am I going to go to an Igbo divinity article and put a photo of a Yoruba divinity on the pretext that the same divinity is found among the Igbo. The photo of the statue is already present on the Mami Wata article and has no place on the Simbi article.

And to finish, he/she (User: MiddleOfAfrica) says: "This page is not about Kongo culture! It's about Simbi, which are a part of more cultures than just the Kongo. Mami Wata IS also a Kongo spirit." What a contradiction! Simbi is part of Kongo culture! This article bears the Kongo name "Simbi"! Kongos don't call sirens "Mami Wata". Respect people's culture! Kongo culture is not Yoruba culture, nor Igbo culture, nor Ewe culture, nor Mbundu culture, nor Luba culture, nor Swahili culture, nor Téké culture, nor Punu culture, and so on. JustSomeone08 (talk) 06:55, 13 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Okay, let's break this all the way down. A simbi is not a deity. A simbi is a nature spirit. In Bantu tradition, bisimbi exist across hundreds of cultures, not just the Bakongo people. While they began as a part of Bantu spirituality in Central and Southern African, Bisimbi are revered by people of African descent throughout the diaspora as well. Thus, this page is about global simbi lore, which includes Mami Wata, who is also celebrated in Central Africa, including in the Democratic Republic of Congo. So no, it's not a contradiction to acknowledge both of those truths from a historical standpoint. You seem to be under the impression that the art has to be created by a Kongo person, but it doesn't because this page isn't about the Bakongo people; it's specifically about Bisimbi, which Mami Wata is. Regardless of the heritage of the African person who created the art, it is a representation of a Simbi, and that's what's relevant.
 * Source: https://fowler.ucla.edu/exhibitions/mami-wata-arts-for-water-spirits-in-africa-and-its-diasporas/
 * "A video of this event as well as sculptures and masks from the Ibibio and Igbo peoples of southeastern Nigeria illustrate Mami Wata’s role in their cultures, while numerous popular paintings from Democratic Republic of the Congo suggest how Mami Wata plays an important role in central African urban culture and spiritual practices." MiddleOfAfrica (talk) 13:34, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "Bantu tradition DOES in fact exist." What is the name of this tradition? So according to your logic, European tradition also exists?
 * "Bantu-speaking people in Central, East, and Southern Africa share a lot of cultural similarities that are specific to them. We see this beyond language to spiritual beliefs, such as the existence of Nzambi across countless cultures (See Nyambe)" Since when does having similarities mean having the same culture?Since when is Luba culture Kongo culture? Since when is Téké culture Kongo culture? Since when is Ngombe culture Kongo culture?? Etc.
 * "Apart from the Bakongo people, Simbi is used by pretty much every ethnic group in the DRC from Ngombe to the Cilubá, some in the RoC, and even some in north-west Angola, such as the Ambundu and Ovimbundu." What are the names of the authors who confirm that the Ngombe, Luba and Ovimbundu call their spirit nature "Simbi"?
 * Since when have the Luba, Ngombe, Ovimbundu, Ambundu, Punu, Lumbu, Téké, Mbochi (...) whorshipped their spirit nature by calling it "Simbi"?
 * «The statue in the photo is of Mami Wata and Mami Wata is venerated as a Simbi water spirit, so as long as the art is a representation of a Simbi and is respectful of the peoples who venerate Bisimbi» The Igbo don't call their water spirit "Simbi". The Igbo artist who made this statue didn't call the Igbo water spirit "Simbi". Igbo don't venerated their water spirit by calling it Simbi. JustSomeone08 (talk) 17:23, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
 * You're correct that Luba culture is not Kongo culture. They STILL refer to water spirits as bisimbi in their culture today. Bisimbi exist in other cultures, who also refer to them as "bisimbi." That's literally the point I'm making. So while Bakongo culture has an extensive tradition of veneration for bisimbi and other nature spirits, this page can and does highlight the existence of bisimbi in other cultures outside of the historical context of the Kingdom of Kongo. Thus, the art for the page CAN also exhibit other representations of a simbi, even if they're not created by a Bakongo person.
 * And yes, descendants of Igbo people (and other ethnic groups) in the Americas DO in fact refer to Mami Wata as a simbi. She's also referred to as Simbi (the name). Though it shouldn't matter, the Bakongo people in DRC, RoC, and Angola also refer to Mami Wata as a simbi. It seems as though you just have a personal preference, but that doesn't constitute the removal of the image. The reference photo is Mami Wata, and Mami Wata is considered a simbi spirit. If you would like to credit a page that specifically focuses on spirits in Bakongo spirituality, you are free to do so and assign whatever image to the research that you've done. However, as this page researches simbi lore in full, Mami Wata is a part of that research, so it's not a fallacy or "lie," to quote you, to have her as the main article image.
 * In "Central Africans and Cultural Transformations in the American Diaspora" by Linda M. Heywood and "African-Atlantic Cultures and the South Carolina Lowcountry" by Ras Michael Brown, both talk about how colonization and slavery played a crucial role in the transfer of simbi (cymbee) beliefs to other ethnic groups and cultures in and outside of Africa, including the different Luba groups. That includes the honoring of Mami Wata as a simbi in Central Africa. The latter book also identifies how bisimbi became essential spirits in the spiritual practices and beliefs of both Native American and Black American communities in South Carolina. So Bakongo, Igbo, Cherokee, Mbundu, Mandinka, Fulani, and other peoples also venerated simbi water spirits and referred to them as "simbi." MiddleOfAfrica (talk) 18:14, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "They STILL refer to water spirits as bisimbi in their culture today. Bisimbi exist in other cultures, who also refer to them as "bisimbi." That's literally the point I'm making." What are the names of the authors who confirm that these non-Kongo peoples (Luba, Téké, Punu, Tetela, Ngombe…) in Africa venerate their water spirit by calling it "Simbi"?
 * "transfer of simbi (cymbee) beliefs to other ethnic groups and cultures in and outside of Africa" How does the transfer automatically mean an appellation transfer? Since when do the Luba, Téké, Punu, Ovimbundu, Ambundu(...)call their water spirit "Simbi"?
 * "Though it shouldn't matter, the Bakongo people in DRC, RoC, and Angola also refer to Mami Wata as a simbi" Not all Kongos call the water spirit, mermaid "Simbi" and Mami Wata is not a Kongo term.
 * "It seems as though you just have a personal preference, but that doesn't constitute the removal of the image." It's not a personal preference but consistency and respect for cultures! So if I follow your logic, the Kongos must now base their veneration of the Simbi on the Igbo people's representation of the water spirit just because "Simbi" was brought to the Americas?
 * "Mami Wata is a part of that research, so it's not a fallacy or "lie," to quote you, to have her as the main article image." There's already an article about Mami Wata. The moment you made it seem as if this image came from West Central Africa, you were lying to the readers. Isn't it an appropriation (the representation)? This image is on the Mami Wata article with the name of the country (Nigeria) plus the name of the people (Igbo) to which this image belongs.
 * "In "Central Africans and Cultural Transformations in the American Diaspora" by Linda M. Heywood and "African-Atlantic Cultures and the South Carolina Lowcountry" by Ras Michael Brown, both talk about how colonization and slavery played a crucial role in the transfer of simbi (cymbee) beliefs to other ethnic groups and cultures in and outside of Africa, including the different Luba groups. That includes the honoring of Mami Wata as a simbi in Central Africa." Which people brought the Simbi to the Americas? I repeat, apart from the Kongos, which Central African people in Central Africa call their water spirit "Simbi"? Because Luba people(…)don't call their water spirit "Simbi". JustSomeone08 (talk) 19:53, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I said, "'Central Africans and Cultural Transformations in the American Diaspora' by Linda M. Heywood and 'African-Atlantic Cultures and the South Carolina Lowcountry' by Ras Michael Brown, both talk about how colonization and slavery played a crucial role in the transfer of simbi (cymbee) beliefs to other ethnic groups and cultures in and outside of Africa, including the different Luba groups. That includes the honoring of Mami Wata as a simbi in Central Africa." Those are some of the authors and sources. Do you have any sources that say differently?
 * "The moment you made it seem as if this image came from West Central Africa, you were lying to the readers." Let's correct our diction and be civil. I am not a liar, and you will not disrespect me by calling me one simply because you disagree. I made no mention of where the artist who created the art piece was from. I simply stated that Mami Wata is considered a simbi, so her being the main image was acceptable and appropriate. If you actually go back to the history section of the article and read, you will see that I did not provide the original image nor its description. However, the user who did is still correct. West-Central Africa is literally the historical name for the region. This is very well documented. It's not a conspiracy. Those who are educated on the subject know that.
 * "The Kongos must now base their veneration of the Simbi on the Igbo people's representation of the water spirit just because "Simbi" was brought to the Americas?" Why would anyone base their spiritual practices on Wikipedia image? Let's be rational here. As someone who actually honors bisimbi, that makes no sense to me. You're definitely reaching.
 * It seems as though your whole argument is that the image has to have relevance to the Bakongo people. I definitely disagree. However, I provided proof that Mami Wata is venerated in Congo and provided a link to the source. I also provided two sources by notable anthropologists whose works center on Central African cultures, and their research highlights the adoption of bisimbi belief in across countless cultures, and how the Bakongo were not the only people to originally believe in them.
 * And again, as this page is about bisimbi and Mami Wata is a simbi who is venerated both in Central Africa and abroad, there should not be an issue with having an image of her as the main profile image. MiddleOfAfrica (talk) 17:26, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "No, it shows that Mami Wata is a central water spirit in numerous cultures in and outside of Africa, who all use the name Mami Wata in conjunction with other names." I repeat, it shows that these peoples each have their own name for the water spirit! What you're doing is  appropriation, putting the representation of a divinity from one people on the article of a divinity from another people is  appropriation!
 * "Why would anyone base their spiritual practices on Wikipedia image? Let's be rational here." Why do you put the representation of a water spirit from the Igbo people in an article about a water spirit from another people? Answer my question: since when have the Igbo people of Africa venerated their water spirit by calling it Simbi? Some readers take information from Wikipedia without thinking it through.  I have seen this on social networks, with people (Including young Kongos from the West who want to get closer to their ancestral religion.) reposting the text of the Nzambi a Mpungu article and the Holo god representation. These people thought that the Holo representation of God was the Kongo representation of God.
 * "I provided proof that Mami Wata is venerated in Congo and provided a link to the source" Mami Wata is not a Central African term.
 * "That includes the honoring of Mami Wata as a simbi in Central Africa" Mami Wata is not a Central African term, and not all Central African people venerate their water spirit by calling it Simbi, Luba people call their water spirit Mamba Muntu, Punu call it Muyisi (pl: Bayisi), etc.
 * "I am not a liar, and you will not disrespect me by calling me one simply because you disagree. I made no mention of where the artist who created the art piece was from." By reposting the version of the article containing "West-Central African" (Afrique Centrale Occidentale in French) you have contributed to the lie.
 * "However, the user who did is still correct. West-Central Africa is literally the historical name for the region" Since when have the Igbo people been a people of West-Central Africa (Afrique Centrale Occidentale in French)? JustSomeone08 (talk) 19:04, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * If you believe that the Bakongo people appropriated Mami Wata, despite the fact that she exists across countless African cultures, then that's your opinion. And again, I'm not arguing with your opinion when it's not rooted in some aspect of fact. You've only stated that you disagree with my sources, but you've yet to provide any of your own.
 * It still remains that Mami Wata is venerated as a simbi today, including in Central Africa. So when you keep asking, " Why do you put the representation of a water spirit from the Igbo people in an article about a water spirit from another people?," it literally ignores the fact that simbi are not solely present in Bakongo society, which I keep reiterating to you. And "Mami Wata is not a Central African term" is an uninformed statement, considering 1) European languages exist across Africa today and 2) I previously provided you with a source that proves that Mami Wata is venerated in the Congo region.
 * Source: https://africa.si.edu/exhibits/mamiwata/cultural.html
 * Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/03/arts/design/03wata.html
 * And to be clear, there are sources, including those that I gave you previously (anthropologists and historians Heywood and Brown), that suggest that the belief in "simbi" also existed in West African spiritualities and cultures as "bisimbi." In Nigeria, spirits were also referred to as "simbi" They were associated with water and restoration and seen as protectors. Because of this, it also became synonymous with royalty. As a result, Simbi is a surname in Nigeria today.
 * Source: https://venere.it/en/the-meaning-and-history-of-the-name-simbi/
 * Source: https://en.nomorigine.com/origin-of-surname/simbi/
 * Source: https://occult-world.com/mami-waters/
 * At this point, you've provided no valid reason that I have not already disproven as to why an image of Mami Wata isn't appropriate for this page. I maintain that this page is about the simbi, not Bakongo spirituality and culture specifically. That includes Mami Wata. MiddleOfAfrica (talk) 15:40, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, can you make sure that you hit "Reply" specifically for the comment that you're replying to so that the thread is in order and easier to follow? MiddleOfAfrica (talk) 18:16, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
 * For some reason, I wasn't given the option to reply to your recent comment, so I'll reply under this one.
 * Bantu tradition DOES in fact exist. Bantu-speaking people in Central, East, and Southern Africa share a lot of cultural similarities that are specific to them. We see this beyond language to spiritual beliefs, such as the existence of Nzambi across countless cultures (See Nyambe). Apart from the Bakongo people, Simbi is used by pretty much every ethnic group in the DRC from Ngombe to the Cilubá, some in the RoC, and even some in north-west Angola, such as the Ambundu and Ovimbundu. Also, those in the DRC who revere Mami Wata, including the Bakongo, identify her as a Simbi. Literally. They even have art of her present at Simbi festivals and give offerings to her. Some, Zambian, Congolese and Angolan people also identify some Dona Fish, or mermaids, as Simbi.
 * This article is about Simbi, period. Mata Wata is seen as a Simbi, and if you go to the Mami Wata page, it says that she is also called Mamba Muntu because that is one of the Central African names for her, along with Madame Poisson and La Sirène. The statue in the photo is of Mami Wata and Mami Wata is venerated as a Simbi water spirit, so as long as the art is a representation of a Simbi and is respectful of the peoples who venerate Bisimbi, it should not matter the ethnic group in which the artist belongs.
 * And as for your Kianda comparison, Kianda isn't a Simbi. She's not a water spirit. Kianda is an actual water deity. She is not just venerated. She's worshipped. That's the difference. In Angola and Southwestern DRC, where belief in Kianda exists the most, simbi are also venerated in addition, but she is not considered to be one of them. That is why an image of Mami Wata wouldn't be appropriate for Kianda. They are not the same. MiddleOfAfrica (talk) 15:01, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "This article is about Simbi, period. Mata Wata is seen as a Simbi," Which Nigerian people call their nature spirit "Simbi"?

"and if you go to the Mami Wata page, it says that she is also called Mamba Muntu because that is one of the Central African names for her, along with Madame Poisson and La Sirène." This shows that these peoples have their own names, and that the name Mami Wata is not used by all Africans or all Afrodescendants! I'd already said that.

"The statue in the photo is of Mami Wata and Mami Wata is venerated as a Simbi water spirit, so as long as the art is a representation of a Simbi and is respectful of the peoples who venerate Bisimbi, it should not matter the ethnic group in which the artist belongs." Since when do the Igbo of Africa venerate their nature spirit by calling it Simbi? Since when is Yoruba culture Igbo culture? Since when is Kongo culture Igbo culture? Since when is African-American culture Igbo culture? Since when is Ewe culture Igbo culture? Since when is Fulani culture Igbo culture? Since when is Luba culture Igbo culture? Since when is Mbundu culture Igbo culture? Since when is Afro-Brazilian culture Igbo culture? And so on. So now you're telling me Kongo, Luba, Ewe, Fon, Yoruba, Ambundu, Ovimbundu(...)can venerate their spirit nature with the representation of the Igbo people's nature spirit? Isn't it an appropriation?

"She's not a water spirit. Kianda is an actual water deity. She is not just venerated. She's worshipped. That's the difference. In Angola and Southwestern DRC, where belief in Kianda exists the most, simbi are also venerated in addition, but she is not considered to be one of them. That is why an image of Mami Wata wouldn't be appropriate for Kianda. They are not the same" In the article we can read "O Desejo de Kianda (lit. The Wish of Kianda, published in English as The Return of the Water Spirit)", "Kongo equivalent: Simbi/Sawabantu equivalent: Jengu". So Maria Theresa Abelha Alves, Alice Werner and others who call Kianda a water spirit are wrong? JustSomeone08 (talk) 20:32, 13 July 2024 (UTC)


 * "This shows that these peoples have their own names, and that the name Mami Wata is not used by all Africans or all Afrodescendants! I'd already said that." No, it shows that Mami Wata is a central water spirit in numerous cultures in and outside of Africa, who all use the name Mami Wata in conjunction with other names.
 * The second paragraph is an irrelevant tangent, and I'm not going back-and-forth over opinion. I'm only focused on the facts of the actual topic.
 * "In the article we can read "O Desejo de Kianda (lit. The Wish of Kianda, published in English as The Return of the Water Spirit)", "Kongo equivalent: Simbi/Sawabantu equivalent: Jengu". So Maria Theresa Abelha Alves, Alice Werner and others who call Kianda a water spirit are wrong?" Yes, depending on their definition of "water spirit," their use could be an inaccurate description for her. I haven't read their research, so I can't speak on it. Also note, I'm the one who added the Jengu equivalent to the page, and Sawabantu peoples along the coast also refer to them by the term "simbi."
 * Nevertheless, your responses don't address the actual topic of this conversation, which is that Mami Wata is considered a simbi. Thus, as long as the main image is of a simbi, it is appropriate for this page. MiddleOfAfrica (talk) 15:30, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

«In Bantu tradition, bisimbi exist across hundreds of cultures, not just the Bakongo people. While they began as a part of Bantu spirituality in Central and Southern African, Bisimbi are revered by people of African descent throughout the diaspora as well.» Bantu tradition doesn't exist! Just as the European tradition doesn't exist! Bantu is a linguistic group! give me the names of the other peoples in the Bantu language group who also call their spirit nature "Simbi/Kisimbi (pl: Bisimbi)"!

«Bisimbi are revered by people of African descent throughout the diaspora as well. Thus, this page is about global simbi lore, which includes Mami Wata, who is also celebrated in Central Africa, including in the Democratic Republic of Congo.» Apart from the Kongos, which people brought the name Simbi to the Americas? Apart from the Kongos, who call their nature spirit "Simbi"? Which Central African people call their water spirit, mermaids "Mami Wata"?

«So no, it's not a contradiction to acknowledge both of those truths from a historical standpoint. You seem to be under the impression that the art has to be created by a Kongo person, but it doesn't because this page isn't about the Bakongo people;» This article is about a Kongo cultural element, this article bears the Kongo name "Simbi" and yes it's contradictory to put a statue of a divinity of another people on the pretext that the same divinity is found among the Igbo! The photo of the statue is already featured in the Mami Wata article, which makes sense https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mami_Wata! So on the pretext that this divinity is also found among the Igbo, the photo should also be added to this article https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kianda?

Hello everyone, to explain Mami Wata became a Simbi spirit in the Americas. During the slave trade and slavery in the Americas dozens of West and Central African ethnic groups were taken and enslaved in the Americas and all worked on the same plantations. African creole cultures emerged as many ethnic groups from West and Central Africa merged their cultures in language, spirituality, religion, and foodways. I couldn't find an image of a Central African simbi spirit and that's why I put the image of Mami Wata. Mami Wata is not in Hoodoo, but again I couldn't find a Central African simbi image. Here are sources about Mami Wata as a simbi spirit in the Americas. Also according to ethnographic research, West and Central African water spirits have similar meanings of fertility, financial abundance, residing in water, control over the forces of nature, protection of women and children, and magical powers. As this source explained, "Given their terrestrial/aquatic nature, it is not surprising that the conceptualization of a mermaid, referred to as Mami Wata (from the pidgin English 'Mother Water'), has been adopted as a popular image of these land/water spirits, as elsewhere along the west coast of Africa, in the interior and across the Atlantic." Mami Wata became a symbolic image for mermaid spirits in the Americas. 1. https://staff.washington.edu/ellingsn/Drewal-Mami_Wata-AfAr.2008.41.2.pdf 2. https://africa.si.edu/exhibits/mamiwata/sisters.html Hoodoowoman (talk) 18:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Hello,
 * Some readers take information from Wikipedia without thinking it through. I have seen this on social networks, with people (Including young Kongos from the West who want to get closer to their ancestral religion.) reposting the text of the Nzambi a Mpungu article and the Holo god representation. These people thought that the Holo representation of God was the Kongo representation of God. JustSomeone08 (talk) 19:10, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I understand clarity is needed. Some people will think Mami Wata is the actual original representation of the Kongo water spirits. However, academic sources and images in the Americas depict African water spirits as Mami Wata. I also understand where you and MiddleofAfrica is coming from. Hoodoowoman (talk) 19:25, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * If you take issue with that, then why not find an art piece with Bakongo representation? You have opinions but no solutions, and that's not constructive. Don't just remove the current work that other Wikipedia contributors have done without actually contributing an alternative, especially when the reason is based on your experience on a social media site. We also have to acknowledge that the Baholo people also worshipped Nzambi a Mpungu and referred to Him as such, so there also has to be nuance in your understanding that many of these ideologies exist across other ethnic groups and that their depictions are also valid as long as they're not on the Kongo religion page.
 * As for Simbi page specifically, I don't have an issue with another image being provided. If you don't like or understand Mami Wata being the main image, you can definitely suggest other images to replace it. MiddleOfAfrica (talk) 15:58, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "If you take issue with that, then why not find an art piece with Bakongo representation? You have opinions but no solutions, and that's not constructive."So, according to your logic, you have to include images of other peoples just so there's an illustration?Not all Wikipedia articles contain main image.
 * "We also have to acknowledge that the Baholo people also worshipped Nzambi a Mpungu and referred to Him as such, so there also has to be nuance in your understanding that many of these ideologies exist across other ethnic groups and that their depictions are also valid as long as they're not on the Kongo religionpage." Holo culture is not Kongo culture! Holo people don ´t consider themselves as Bakongo. So you think it's legitimate to include the representation of the god of the Holo people in an article about the god of the Mbala people of ex-Bandundu. So you're in favour of appropriation!
 * "As for Simbi page specifically, I don't have an issue with another image being provided. If you don't like or understand Mami Wata being the main image, you can definitely suggest other images to replace it." As far as I know, not all Wikipedia articles have main image. So what's this law that forces contributors to put main image on Wikipedia? The main thing is that Hoodoowoman understands me! JustSomeone08 (talk) 05:29, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "So, according to your logic, you have to include images of other peoples just so there's an illustration?Not all Wikipedia articles contain main image." No, I literally provided you with sources (that you have yet to acknowledge) that show that simbi are not a part of only one belief system, one culture, and one people. So this narrative that you keep pushing is a fallacy. Period.
 * "Holo culture is not Kongo culture!... So you're in favour of appropriation!" This page isn't specially about the Bakongo people, so that's irrelevant. Again, you're arguing something that isn't being argued and that isn't a fact, as the evidence I've provided clearly shows. I'll reiterate what I've been saying, which is that if you think the Bakongo people "appropriated" Mami Wata and that other African ethnic groups "appropriated" bisimbi, then that has nothing to do with me. Your opinion is your opinion.
 * "As far as I know, not all Wikipedia articles have main image." Well, this one does, and it's an image that is appropriate for this article. And I restate, yet again, that you haven't provided a valid reason for why this the image isn't valid. You've only said what you've allegedly observed on Twitter. I understand your statement. I just disagree because it's built on the premise that the image should be an art piece by a Mukongo person. Again, if you would like to provide a replacement image and actually contribute, you can. MiddleOfAfrica (talk) 19:50, 16 July 2024 (UTC)