Talk:Simele massacre

Title
I've moved this page to Simele massacre because it gets the higest amount of Google hits - 118, and even one hit at Google books. Wikipedia policy says that we should have titles at the most common name for something. That's why we have the article at Kishinev pogrom, and not "Chişinău pogrom". Same reason for Great Fire of Smyrna as well. &mdash; Khoikhoi 04:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you! Chaldean 19:10, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

GA Review
This article has been reviewed against the good article criteria and has failed. This is mainly because the article needs more references, better NPOV and should be better written. The complete review is below.

Well Written: FAIL
 * Your Government of Iraq wikilink goes to the Ba'athist and Allied occupation page - a page which makes no mention of government before Saddam. Remove it or link to a more relevant page. - done
 * The article is disjointed, commas are used too often. A few examples:
 * public animosity towards the Assyrians was ‘fever heat’, as American representative Paul Knabenshue was quoted - Why not say "the American representative in Iraq described public animosity towards the Assyrians was at 'fever heat', or not even name him and just cite the source - done
 * Mar Shimun would eventually be exiled to Cyprus, thus forcing the head of the Assyrian Church of the East to be located in Chicago, to this day. - Get rid of the comma between "Chicago" and "to this day". - done


 * The list of 54 villages adds nothing to the article. Either leave in two or three of the biggest, or else cut them out entirely and leave only the statement In the end, around 63 Assyrian villages were targeted in the Simele area - referenced, of course. - done

Factually Accurate and Verifiable: FAIL On factual detail: 'In June 1933 [he] was [called for talks with] Hikmat Sulayman's government'. A check on the details of the latter states he was indeed Prime Minister, but in 1936-37 rather than 1933... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Protozoon (talk • contribs) 01:22, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Iraqi Independence and crisis section does not contain enough references. The entire passage about the plan and motivations of Mar Eshai Shimun XXIII is entirely uncited.
 * In Baghdad, the government panicked, fearing disaster as the Assyrians presented a formidable fighting force that could provoke a general uprising in the north. The government unleashed Kurdish irregulars who killed some 120 inhabitants of two Assyrian villages in the week of August 2 to August 9 (with most of the massacre occurring on August 7). Then on August 11, a march to what was then one of the most heavily inhabited Assyrian area in Iraq, the Simele district, led by Kurdish general Bakr Sidqi (who had clashed with Assyrians before).  - No references there at all - rectify this.
 * The Assyrian population of the district of Simele was indiscriminately massacred; men women, and children. - That is unreferenced, and without a citation both unverfiable and a point of view.
 * Holy books were used as fuel for burning girls. Children were run over by military cars. Pregnant women were bayoneted. Children were flung in the air and pierced on to the points of bayonets. - Again, no citation. History can still be inflamatory, it does not lose that just because it is in the past.  You must be careful to reference most statements in a case such as this, otherwise you will be falling foul of both NPOV and verification rules.
 * Last paragraph of the Aftermath section is entirely unreferenced. The first half of that section's first paragraph is also in need of citations.

Broad: PASS
 * The article is suitably broad in scope.

NPOV: FAIL
 * You have to be really careful with a subject like this. Wikipedia rules forbid words like "massacre" at all unless that is the name by which the event is most commonly known - which in this case it is.  However, that does not mean that you can write the rest of the article in that vein.
 * The government unleashed Kurdish irregulars  making the Kurds sound like dogs is not NPOV.

Stable: PASS
 * The article is not the victim of ongoing edit wars

Pictures: FAIL
 * Fair use images are used.

Chrisfow 18:11, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Biased and false anfo
Hi. The article contains a lot of of false information, with either misquoting or biased references. It is heavily one-sided in favour of Assyrian party. Please corret it. Abrhamon 16:32, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Please state what parts are false. This article is indeed very well sourced and they can't be biased refernces, since they are third-party accounts (non-Assyrian, non-Arab/kurdish). Its silly to suggest refences such as "International Federation for Human Rights " as being baised. Chaldean 16:36, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * After I wrote my comment above, that this article contains lots of false info, I noticed that someone alse before me has noticed this and he has elaborateed weaknesses of the article. Moreover, I think it is silly to use good sources but misquote them! and this means to fabricate nonsense but represent a link as a source while the source really does not mention anything like what has been claimed in the article. One more thing: AINA is not third party! Abrhamon 16:48, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it is silly to use good sources but misquote them - Please dont just STATE, but PROVE. One more thing: AINA is not third party! - AINA is used once to state the name of the villages. I dont think this is a violation of NPOV. Chaldean 16:57, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I already told you that another user has elaborated weaknesses of the article before me. For example I did not find the page which talks about massacres in the link provided.
 * and it is not just AINA, much of links are from Assyrian blogs. Abrhamon 17:02, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Your going in circles. The peer-review by user Chrisfow mentioned a few sentences, not questioning the whole article (like you claiming.) Assyrian blogs? Here are the refences;


 * a b c d International Federation for Human Rights — "Displaced persons in Iraqi Kurdistan and Iraqi refugees in Iran", 2003.
 * "The Origins and Developments of Assyrian Nationalism", Committee on International Relations Of the University of Chicago, by Robert DeKelaita 1
 * Joseph Yacoub, La question assyro-chaldéenne, les Puissances européennes et la SDN (1908–1938), 4 vol., thèse Lyon, 1985, p. 156.
 * a b c d Iraq Between the Two World Wars: The Militarist Origins of Tyranny, Reeva S. Simon, 2004.
 * http://www.nestorian.org/nestorian_patriarchs.html
 * Majed Eshoo, "The Fate Of Assyrian Villages Annexed To Today's Dohuk Governorate In Iraq"
 * Colonel Stafford of the British Army testimony [2]
 * The Ottoman Peoples and the End of Empire, by Justin MacCarthy 3
 * Minorities in the Middle East: a history of struggle and self-expression By Mordechai Nisan
 * Good Morning Assyria, Zinda Magazine.
 * Premtad Seemel, Shlemon Bet Shmuel.
 * William Saroyan, "Seventy Thousand Assyrians," in William Saroyan, The Daring Young Man on The Flying Trapeze and Other Stories. New York: New Directions, 1934
 * Seventy Thousand Assyrians, William SAROYAN, WikiQuotes.
 * Raphael Lemkin — EuropeWorld, 22/6/2001.

Where are "Assyrian blogs"? Your losing credibility. Moreover, I think its amusing you creating a username to just talk about this issue. Chaldean 17:12, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Well I'm a random user, just reading this article by accident. It is not important whether I lose credibility or not, It is important that this website, Wikipedia, should not be misused. I asked you where [International Federation for Human Rights] talks abot Simele fighting of Iraq and Syrian refugees, but you did not answer. I think I have the permission to add citiation tags. Abrhamon 17:21, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I find it hard to believe you being a randum reader when you question AINA's credibility, like many Kurds do. In regards to "International Federation for Human Rights" - this source was used 5 times; [] please read page 17. Chaldean 17:27, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok now I see what you were talking about. Some of the references were screwed up. The reference "name" was being mistaken for another one. Please see this edit - Chaldean 15:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm the one who edited Assyrian genocide
I think we should mention that not all Iraqi christians, and to be more accurate not all Assyrians supported Mar sham'un in his agenda to make an independant Assyria. Also Chaldeans and Syriacs tried not to get invoved in this conflict. and many of those Assyrians who envolved in this conflict were Imigrants from Iran (Urmia) and southern Turkey unlike other Iraqi christians (mostly Chaldeans and Syriac Orthodox) you can refer to this source as well http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/si/2006/May/kadhimMay06.asp
 * Iraqi was a lose term in 1933 because the country was so new. What is a Iraqi? One who lives in Iraq, right? Then Iraqis died in the pogram. Chaldean (talk) 00:40, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Khaldun S. Husry
Who is he? anyone know anything about him? Izzedine  (talk) 13:34, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Sources for the section "massacre and looting"
Much of the later part of the section "massacre and looting" appears to be copied directly from the source "Assyrian International News Organization" with a few words added.

In turn, the "Assyrian International News Organization" piece of the Simele massacre consists entirely of one quote from a source identified only as "Anonymous; The Assyrian Tragedy; 1934".

That apparently copied material has inline citations at various points in it, citing a dead link at JSTOR.

The entire later part of this section is problematic unless someone can find where the relevant information at JSTOR now is. Some of the later JSTOR links work fine.

I've tagged the dead links and the unreliable link to dubious information at AINO. Later citations of AINO I have left alone because they link to a specific article there that appears to be a translation of an academic study of some sort, rather than just linking to a mass of claims about massacres throughout history on the AINO front page including only the dubious "Anonymous" quote that I mention above. -Demiurge1000 (talk) 14:56, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
 * ok someone has now removed some of the dubiously sourced statements in the latter part of that section, without explaining why (either here or there.) But left some other similarly sourced statements in place.  It would be great to have a discussion and reach some concensus about the quality of these sources - perhaps get an idea of which source is supporting what, and whether someone with more knowledge in this area can help to find the relocated JSTOR resources that really do discuss these aspects of the events. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:27, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

This article is very biased and shows the Assyrian point of view only. the figures seem to be have been exaggerated too. Some sources say only 450 Assyrians were killed not 3000! thats a big difference. Also the survivers were transferred to Mosul then were disperesed around the country not massacred. If they really wanted to massacre them they could have done so when the killing was going on. Another point to mention is that NOT all Assyrians (and certainly not Iraqi Chaldeans or Syriacs) were part of Mar Shamoun movement or the British-trained Assyrian Army in Iraq. Most of those Assyrians; almost two thirds of the 37,000 Assyrians in iraqi at that time were not Iraqi citizens and were brought to Iraq as refugees from Iran and Turkey. who took adgantage of the british presence and thats how hate towards them grow over time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.99.80.208 (talk) 18:15, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The article is very well sourced and I did my best looking for neutral sources. The Mar Shimoun's testament is mentioned very briefly, on the other hand I couldn't find any pro-government accounts of the massacre. As to you claims:
 * No where in the article is mentioned that ALL Assyrians were supportive of Mar shimun, and by the way some Chaldean villages were attacked as well.
 * No where in the article is stated that refugees who fled to Alqosh Telkef and Mosul where massacred, most of them chose to settle in Syria, only a small percentage stayed in Iraq.
 * Many of the massacred where Iraqi citizens who chose to cooperate with the government, some even being anti-Mar Shimun.
 * If you have any sources for your claims please bring them forth otherwise I will consider this a case of WP:JDLI and I will remove the POV tag.--  R a f y  talk 19:05, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok apparently "Khaldun Husry" seems to be somehow supportive of the government stance. Unfortunately his books are not made available on google books. If you could find anything regarding his view on the events then we could add them.--  R a f y  talk 19:24, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I have added Husry's testament and the other side's estimate of the total death toll. This should resolve the POV conflict imo.--  R a f y  talk 23:26, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

unreliable report regarding the massacres/looting
Hello everyone, I am new on here so I apologize if I am doing something wrong.

''While these killings were taking place, nearby Kurdish, Arab and Yazidi tribes were encouraged to loot Assyrian villages. Kurdish tribes of Gulli, Sindi and Selivani were encouraged by the mayor of Zakho to loot villages to the northeast of Simele,[30] while Yazidis and Kurds also raided Assyrian villages in Shekhan and Amadiya.[31]''

This has been taken from a false statement of a single report contradicted by contemporary Assyrian accounts. The alleged involvement of the Yazidis was wrongly cited by Ronald S. Stafford and was quickly called into question. For while he could name the exact tribes of the involved Arabs and Kurds as well as their locations, he could not say anything more about the allegedly involved Yazidis. It must be noted that Stafford was not a native and had no special relationship or knowledge regarding Assyrians, let alone regarding Yazidis. His report is considered very unreliable and contradicts the Assyrian reports. Assyrian reports refute Stafford's statements. In a contemporary British state document by B. H. Bourdillon from 17 April 1925, the relationship between Yazidis and Assyrians is well described. From the point of view of the Assyrians Bourdillon describes;

"I learn that David Mar Shimun, father of the Patriarch, is greatly agitated by our attack on Daud-I-Daud [Yezidi leader] and our conflict with the Yazidis generally. The Assyrians look upon the Yazidis as their allies against Islam, and they consider that this move to bring the Yazidis into order is the beginning of a final move to put the Christians and Yazidis definitely under the Arabs and Kurds."

The far more important work "The British Betrayal of The Assyrians" about this massacre was written by Yusuf Malek in 1935, who was himself a native Assyrian and had a good overview of the relations of the peoples there with each other. This report is considered very reliable, which is also shown by the fact that Malek is very critical of the British mandate and does not place all Kurds or Arabs under general suspicion. He reports on this massacre in a very differentiated way. Malek himself was an eyewitness and also referred to survivors and Assyrian eyewitnesses, some of whose accounts he quoted. He explicitly states that only Arabs and Kurds were involved. He did not know of a single Yazidi who took part in it.

Otherwise the relationship between Yazidis and Assyrians would have been disastrous after such an involvement. But the Yazidis and Assyrians still had very good relations in the region after this event. Malek reported:

"The Yazidis have petitioned the League of Nations and definitely stated that they would welcome an Assyrian enclave in the Mosul Liwa, and asked that their districts might be included in that enclave, as in this way alone they can feel secure.”

The allegation of a Yazidi involvement has been taken from an unreliable report. Finally, this assertion is itself refuted by primary Assyrian reports.

--Artafarnah (talk) 18:15, 22 April 2020 (UTC) Artafarnah

6000 dead?
This figure seems to be taken out of two highly dubious sources. The first, an Assyrian propaganda organization. The second, a very conservative, very right-wing and anti-Muslim magazine, that is marred with idiotic right wing controversies. Please take this figure down, and provide other, dependable sources.AhmadNN (talk) 20:58, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Casualties according to the first five Google Scholar
Here's the search I did: (I ignored one MA thesis because it didn't meet WP:SCHOLARSHIP) I don't see much support for figures above 3,000 in the literature. The figures above 1,000 should be attributed to Assyrians. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  08:11, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) Says deaths did not exceed 600, although "Some Assyrians still maintain that about 3,000 Assyrian men, women, arid children were killed at Summayl"
 * 2) "Nearly 1,000 men, women and children were killed by Iraqi armed forces – and their villages were looted by Kurdish tribesmen."
 * 3) "The total number of Assyrian victims of these events was estimated by British officials at about 600, but Assyrian sources put it at several thousand."
 * 4) "Assyrian sources put the number of dead at 3,000."
 * 5) "At other villages batches of men were killed, the total number aggregating 550."