Talk:Simmons University/Archive 1

Images
Someone had swapped out the logo in the infobox with an image of the main campus building. The guidelines for this template state this this position should preferably be occupied by the university's logo. Furthermore, I spot checked 10-15 other pages for universities, and all used the logo rather than a photo. So I replaced the original image (which had been deleted by a bot after being removed from the page) and then moved the photo down the page to the section on the campus itself. If you disagree, please let me know. --Dmdwiggi (talk) 21:26, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Bias
The at-a-glance section reads like a recruiting pamphlet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.36.25 (talk) 02:50, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

One look at the history section shows that the article was apparently rewritten by someone with the handle "Simmonscollege". In the spirit of boldness, I reverted their changes. Feel free to dig back through the history to pull out any of the material from the marketing-heavy edits, but make sure to take out the spam language. --Otterfan (talk) 04:20, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

It would seem that little has truly changed. Lots of iffy language in here. R. A. S immons Talk 05:48, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Moved. Nathan Johnson (talk) 15:36, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Simmons College (Massachusetts) → Simmons College
 * The status quo is wishy-washy, and we can streamline the user experience per WP:NATURAL and WP:TWODABS by moving this article and including a hatnote to Simmons College of Kentucky. There is enough of a discrepancy in pageviews to call WP:PRIMARYTOPIC as well—3927 views last month for this one compared to only 663 for its country cousin. This school also dominates in Google. Searching, I see only one reference to the Kentucky school (its homepage) in the first three results, making it clear that in common usage, "Simmons College" alone refers to this school. BDD (talk) 17:36, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment the disambiguation page should be moved to -- 65.94.76.126 (talk) 06:24, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment this page was cut and pasted from the target in 2006, so a histmerge needs to be done. -- 65.94.76.126 (talk) 06:26, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: Simmons College is a disambiguation page. I have ✅ the history-merge. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 13:07, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The compelling case to move for me is based on natural disambiguation being available for the Kentucky school. Red Slash 19:16, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Support; natural disambiguation is cool; parenthetical is uncool. So uncool. bobrayner (talk) 19:53, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Grad schools co-ed
Can someone reconcile the facts presented that the grad schools are co-ed, and the MBA program is designed specifically for women? I'm sure there is a reasonable explanation and a better way to present this information that is not so confusing, and seemingly contradictory. 107.10.35.75 (talk) 05:49, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

It's because nobody care's about women's only anymore. Simmons doesn't see it as contradictory, but that's a joke. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.73.99.133 (talk) 19:11, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Invitation to Women in Red's Role Models editathon on Women's Colleges
''Please forward this invitation to all potentially interested contacts

Name Change
As of September 1, 2018, Simmons College will change its name to Simmons University. --173.13.121.209 (talk) 15:13, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 17 October 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved (page mover nac) Flooded  with them hundreds  11:01, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Simmons College → Simmons University – As of September 1, 2018, Simmons College is now known as Simmons University. The page content and logo has been updated, but the page title and URL should also be updated to reflect this new name. A page move was attempted but was not successful Mikecorreia (talk) 17:07, 17 October 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Andrewa (talk) 17:57, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I guess I'll support, as per WP:NAMECHANGES (see:, ). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:29, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Any evidence supporting this? (Those links appear to be primary sources.) Andrewa (talk) 18:00, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * You're calling a Boston Globe source a "primary source"?!... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:35, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
 * If it just repeats a press release then yes, it is a primary source. Isn't it? Andrewa (talk) 03:11, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't see how you can possibly say that about the second reference, which opens with "Simmons University has postponed a gala and series of events to launch the Gwen Ifill College of Media, Arts, and Humanities in the face of criticism that a school named in honor of a pioneering black, female journalist named a white man as its first dean." How is this "repeating a press release"?! The reporter clearly had a choice on which name to use, and chose "University". Later on, they mention "Simmons University Black Student Organization" not the "Simmons College Black Student Organization". That's all absolutely good enough. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 12:46, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Just suppose that you were a Boston Globe journalist, writing a story based on a press release from the college that announced this postponement. How would you write the lead? This is exactly the sort of story that the policy seeks to avoid. There is some analysis later in the story, but the journalist is still likely to be using the new name based on the press release, and Michele Norris may also be associated with the school, otherwise why was she interviewed? Andrewa (talk) 21:57, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Support - the name change is real. And the Boston Globe is a quintessential secondary source. --В²C ☎ 20:07, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
 * See discussion above. Yes, the Globe is a reliable source, but not all its content is secondary. And yes the official name has changed. But we still need evidence in terms of wp:NAMECHANGES that this name change has been adopted in common use. Andrewa (talk) 21:57, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I did see discussion above. Whether the Globe's article is triggered by a press release is immaterial. The point is it's published like that. It's out there. Common folks are reading it that way. It's part of the zeitgeist now. That's what makes it relevant to us as a COMMONNAME.  I mean, the Globe article isn't even about the name change. It's just an article about an event at the institution to which it refers as "Simmons University".  That's solid, man. I'm astonished by your push-back on this. --В²C ☎ 23:59, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
 * We may need to agree to disagree on this. The fact that the press release (if that's what it is) doesn't deal with the renaming is irrelevant. What is relevant is that it's from the college/university themselves, so naturally they use their preferred name, whether or not anyone else does. Yes, it's part of the zeitgeist, but its relevance is minimal according to our article naming policy. Andrewa (talk) 06:14, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Sigh.      Need I provide more? Just how many citations from different sources do you need to see to be persuaded the new name has been accepted in recent sources?   —В²C ☎ 13:01, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Deeper sigh. You are just wasting time. The first of those links reads in part Simmons University sent the following statement to Boston 25 News: At approximately 2:36 pm, a Simmons University student...... Do you see what is happening there? Citing a few sources that take the name from press releases of the organisation itself proves nothing, however reliable those sources may be. I did a Google of Simmons College and restricted it to the past week, and got ten pages of ghits including https://www.niche.com/colleges/simmons-college/admissions/ for example, updated just 1 day ago: Simmons College #11 in Best Women's Colleges in America. Simmons College Admissions: Simmons admissions is somewhat selective with an acceptance rate of 64%. Students that get into Simmons have an average SAT score between 1080-1260 or an average ACT score of 24-29. The regular admissions application deadline for Simmons is February 1. This is a recent secondary source, so some of them at least are still using the old name. I have not !voted and do not intend to, having relisted. But I hope the closer might find my comments helpful in assessing the !votes. Andrewa (talk) 09:58, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you missed the part of NAMECHANGES that suggests common sense should be applied. Obviously, some sources like niche.com have not updated the name yet, but plenty enough have to justify reflecting the change on WP. I mean it’s not a change that’s generally not being recognized. The US News link I included above cements that.  —В²C ☎ 13:08, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Commonsense is not permission to ignore the policy, any more than WP:IAR is. I admit I haven't followed all the links above, but as the ones I have followed all turned out to be duds, I don't think it's reasonable to expect that anyone will, frankly.
 * But OK, let's look at that US News link which reads in part Outside the classroom, students can join more than 50 clubs or play for the Simmons Sharks varsity sports teams, which mainly compete in the NCAA Division III Great Northeast Athletic Conference. Students can also make friends by visiting the 15 colleges that are within walking distance of the Simmons campus, including Northeastern University, Emmanuel College and the Massachusetts College of Art and Design. Boston can also be an exciting escape from studies, with professional sports, museums and music festivals nearby for students to enjoy. That reads like an advert to me. Not to you? You really think that's copy from someone not closely associated with the institution? What were you saying about commonsense?
 * Yet another dud. The issue is not whether it’s not a change that’s generally not being recognized. The issue is, do we have evidence that it is being generally recognised? It probably will be. But it may not be, which is why we require evidence that it is. Andrewa (talk) 20:46, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I’m sorry Andrew but I don’t know how else to say this. I think you’re being ridiculous. We do now agree this discussion between us is a waste of time. Let’s see what others think. —В²C ☎ 06:37, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

No need to apologise,, we both need to call them as we see them fall. But please clarify. I made three points: That policy calls for reliable secondary sources, that the US News Link doesn't seem to be one, and that in view of this and a lack of better evidence the RM is at least premature. Do you agree with any of these three points, or are you calling them all ridiculous?

I relisted in the hope that relevant evidence would be presented. Please either take that opportunity, or admit that you can't find any. Andrewa (talk) 20:07, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
 * It’s ridiculous that you don’t accept the Boston Herald, The Boston Globe, WCVB and US News to be reliable WP:SECONDARY sources. They are the epitome of such. If you’re dismissing them, I’m speechless. A reliable source publishing an article based on a primary source like a press release is the quintessential secondary source. —В²C ☎ 07:10, 5 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Support. Here is a more recent news item - Simmons University President Calls For Catholic Church Investigation. This doesn't seem like a press release, and the transcribed interview includes the interviewer referring to the institution as "Simmons University" in dialogue. Also, this. bd2412  T 02:08, 5 November 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Post move and secondary sources
I invite and anyone else interested to read and contribute at Wikipedia talk:No original research. The consensus there so far seems to be, neither of the sources they described above as a quintessential secondary source are secondary sources.

Note I'm disputing neither the move nor the close, just the argument. Andrewa (talk) 01:47, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
 * "the Boston Globe is a quintessential secondary source" is a confused, maybe absurd. A secondary source does something transformational with the information from a primary source, it necessarily requires creative input from the author.  If you use the transformed information (the analysis, the comment, the contextualization, etc) then you are using the source as a secondary source.  If the source merely repeats facts, the repeated facts are still the original factors, are primary source information, and if that is what you are citing the source for, you are citing it as a primary source.  Newspapers have always crossed from primary source to mixed to secondary source.  "Bias-free reporting" aims to be a reliable primary source.  The editorials are almost noting but secondary source when they allude to but don't repeat the facts already reported in preceding pages.  With the passage of time, if the interest shifts from the facts to the reactions of people at the time, the secondary sources become primary sources, because it depends on what information you are using and how you are using it.
 * It is not that complicated, but if you are not up to speed I recommend starting with this distinction:
 * If it is a news report, it is a primary source,
 * if it is a news story, it is a blended primary source / secondary source.
 * The most pure, quintessential "secondary source" is distant from the event, in all of space, time and perspective. Newspapers, news services, should never be assumed to be "secondary sources" in the historiographical sense, and be careful of journalists who confuse "secondary source" with "second hand source".
 * I don't think this question deserves to take up space at WT:NOR. I suggest Wikipedia talk:Identifying and using primary sources would have been better.  --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:38, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:55, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Simmons University Tree Logo.jpg