Talk:Simon Ekpa

Calling Ekpa Prime Minister in wiki-voice
In case anyone wants to discuss it/have an opinion, I argue that him being called PM by an org he started last year does not make him a Prime Minister. When the AU or UN refers to him that way, that's more interesting. For the WP:LEAD, "leader" is reasonable atm. Details in the body.

Sources differ in their approach, and it's not that easy to tell what is WP:RS, but caveats are fairly common:. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:55, 20 April 2024 (UTC)


 * @Gråbergs Gråa Sång, I suspect meatpuppetry here. Biafra topics are always bombarded with trolls, vandals and POV pushers and would suggest you stop feeding them. It would be helpful if the page is protected indefinitely for extended confirmed users. Best, Reading Beans  08:27, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't disagree, but the AGF is strong in this one. This is a WP:BLP and we should get things WP-right if we can. And I really agree on the protection suggestion. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:36, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, you started this article, so you're to blame ;-) Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:47, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
 * AGF is what they always use to penetrate, you know. Our revert button shouldn’t be hesitated to be pushed when they come. Can you request for pp yourself?
 * Also, I’m sorry for creating the page! :)
 * Best, Reading Beans  03:54, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
 * "Not enough recent disruptive activity to justify protection." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:59, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
 * We seem to have deviated from the subject of the topic opened. Prime Minister or Leader? I opine that Prime Minister is more preferable for clarity purposes base on and the meaning of Government-in-exile on Wikipedia and the RS supports it. UN and AU have not disputed him for now per se meaning of government-in-exile and the Exile government started in 1970 when Odumegwu Ojukwu their President fled to Exile in Ivory coast. So, Prime Minister is more strong but he's not prime minister of a an independent country atm. He's a prime minister of a semi-sovereign country called Biafra. I hope that helps. Fugabus (talk) 12:40, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Fugabus, the article is fine the way it reads. Adding PM will add confuse to the mind of our readers. Best, Reading Beans  16:06, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
 * May I disagree with you Reading Beans? Adding PM will clarify the status instead of confusing readers. PM is more straight to the point instead of Leader as Leader has never been used in government-in-exile. We have had Governments in Exile in the past and they were all addressed by their title in their Wikipedia article page Lead. Let's be factual instead of being ficticious guys. Sentiments aside! Fugabus (talk) 18:31, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Reliable sources seem to use the term "self-proclaimed Prime Minister" or "self-acclaimed Prime Minister". I have no objection to using either of those titles because they automatically attribute the claim to the article subject rather than put Wikipedia in the position of asserting he is "Prime Minister" in Wikipedia's narrative voice. ~Anachronist (talk) 02:49, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Anachronist Thank you. The point me and Reading Beans is making is that it is better to leave this terminology to the body, since sources are a bit mixed and precision takes more words. There's a fair amount of drive by-edits like, which did add a source, a very positive article from WP:IBTIMES. There is also the fun "fact" that since he (cleverly?) named his org "government in exile", then, at least according to WP, it is a government in exile (like the Polish government-in-exile, see above thread), which is reaffirmed every time a source mentions it by name. Nevermind that Ekpa was born in 1985. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:25, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The problem here is that the lead doesn't summmarize the body text. I made an attempt just now to rectify that, changing the lead paragraph to say "He appointed himself Prime Minister of the organization he leads, the Biafra Republic Government in Exile (BRGIE), which he founded in 2023." That is an objective fact we can say in Wikipedia's voice. ~Anachronist (talk) 13:55, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * And I think "leader" is a reasonable summary of "variously referred to him as "Prime Minister" or "self-acclaimed Prime Minister" of BRGIE". All in all, I don't see this as an improvement. But at least "self appointed" is in there. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:19, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Anachronist
 * I believe the source from Suomen Kuvalehti [1 is more strong and overrides all other former sources. The source is coming from Finland and it is the most recent one. It would be notable to add Prime Minister and government-in-exile to differentiate between a sovereign nation and also to clear readers. Manual of Style/Lead section should be applied as it will enhance clarity and not muddle it. It meets GNG We all should remember what WP:Lead says "The lead should identify the topic and summarize the body of the article with appropriate weight." Fugabus (talk) 14:05, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Anachronist
 * Your edit on the Lead is seen. I would like to add clarity and readability to it since we have unanimously established here that he is the Prime Minister of the government-in-exile
 * Best regards Fugabus (talk) 14:12, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * You did not add clarity. That he appointed himself to lead the org he founded is very relevant. And you have an interesting use of "unanimously". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:17, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, on that one source you like, it seems it originally had ”Biafran pääministeri” in quote marks, indicating some skepticism. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:17, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The article uses term such as he is prime minister in some ppl's eyes, also that he himself claim the title. Not that he unquestionably is the recognized pm by all. Then also gives a direct quote from Ekpa himself, ”Minä, Biafran pakolaisministeriön pääministeri, tuon teille uutisia toivosta.” or translated by me "Me, of Biafras ministry of exile's prime minister, bring you news of hope". he uses pakolaisministeriö (ministry of exile), instead of pakolaishallitus (government of exile). Insinuating he has a boss prime minister, president etc. somewhere. Just confusing. Maybe it's a genuine mistake by him and he means pakolaishallitus. The article uses government of exile instead of Ekpa though. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 18:45, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Per that article, he could be thinking of Nnamdi Kanu, "I am in contact with Kanu every day." That's me guessing. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:50, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Hello @Gråbergs Gråa Sång
 * Editors on Wikipedia base their edits on sources but it seems you are editing out of the RS. "It's your own point of view".See the sources I saw before making that little tweak edit. 1 2. He was appointed and not He appointed himself'''. According to the reportage, he announced his announcement which made it to be covered in the mainstream media as rightly contained under in the "Activism and separatism" section of the article. I withdraw the use of the word "unanimously" but pease abide and stop muddling context. I do not rather disagree with your point of view edits but would suggest you read Wikipedia Wikipedia:Manual of Style before reverting me again or reach my talk page to discuss my edits. I feel bullied right now and whenever my whole edits are being reverted and not being improved. TBH, I feel discouraged to continue to improve the English Wikipedia but I must continue regardless. You should be encouraging me and point out corrections while referring me to one or more guidelines and policies on editing I know I am a new editor but you scare me away and not being friendly as you should be with new editors on Wikipedia.
 * Sincerely,
 * Fugabus (talk) 19:23, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * On "Biafran pääministeri" contained at the top of that Finnish source, it is called Clickbait in journalism and readers aren't skeptical. That you are skeptical is your own point of view anyways and I leave that for you. Wish you could just take out time to educate yourself on politics and journalism in this case.
 * Best regards, Fugabus (talk) 19:24, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Who appointed him? He did. Why dispute or whitewash a fact that is already reported in reliable sources? It is an undeniable fact that he appointed himself as Prime Minister. Nobody is denying that he is Prime Minister. The fact that we have multiple sources pointing out that he declared himself to be Prime Minister is relevant. The lead should summarize the body, and the body clearly says he is self-appointed, an objective undeniable fact that is backed up by multiple sources. ~Anachronist (talk) 19:40, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Fugabus
 * Whaat? Kuvalehti isn't really in the clickbait business, it is a bit of an posh magazine, high quality, limited circulation/readership. The comment I posted where more about what the article says and not my own opinion. It's right there in the article. The article goes through the disputes with IPOB and then states:
 * "Oli miten oli, Ekpa on nyt ainakin joidenkin pääministeri." or translated by me "Be it as it may, Ekpa is now at least the prime minister by some", with connotation/emphasis of joidenkin (by some) meaning not by all. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 19:56, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * To everyone, if someone wakes up and declares himself President of New Amsterdam, would we acknowledge this in wikivoice? I guess not. Now, that is what is happening here. Being the leader as written by Gråbergs Gråa Sång makes sense to me. Best, Reading Beans  20:10, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I would write it as just that and trust the reader, something like "claimed Prime Minister" or similar, with a qualifier in-front of the 'prime minister' title. Then add ref so reader can investigate themselves. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 20:21, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Someone else want to revert the whitewashing this time? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 22:05, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I added ref pointing to the edit for readers to see. This should not be considered whitewashing but should be seen edit based on Wikipedia Censorship issue. The body of the article has saved a lot.
 * My regards
 * Fugabus (talk) 22:19, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Gråbergs Gråa Sång It is considered offensive to refer to Fugabus  as ADVOCACY editor. Doing what is right by editing base on Policies and guidelines is not advocacy in anyway. What should you be called then because the last I checked, you are the most contributing editor on this article page. Which category did you fall in? Don't make editors to be skeptical here. Conflict of interest editor? Our edits should be not suggest conflict of interest, Libel or Censorship.
 * Neutral point of view ought to be maintained at all level. Hello @Kennet.mattfolk
 * The dispute of whether 'Leader' or 'Prime Minister' has been resolved which we ended up with Prime Minister. Nnamdi Kanu seem to me to be their president according to the utterances of Ekpa in the Yle report. The dispute now is whether self-declared should be used in the Lead or the body. I am considering opening a topic for it so that it can be resolved amicably.
 * Fugabus (talk) 10:26, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Fugabus, it is obvious that you're an advocating for something—just you and other blocked editors are in lieu. You haven't done a good job hiding it. The other links you proposed do not make any sense to me either, so what’s your point with libel and censorship?
 * There is no dispute concerning self declared, you are the only one advocating for it (advocating? Whoops!). But then go ahead and open another discussion advocating for prime minister Ekpa. Best, Reading Beans  10:37, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Reading Beans. It has been proven that you may have a conflict on interest on this article and if not, why do you tend to scare new commers away from contributing neutrally? Your accusations are unfounded and I can't take it from you. I think you may be wanting only you and @Gråbergs Gråa Sång to be editing the page so that you may impose your own point of view on a notable figure like Simon Ekpa. From what I have seen, this article has NPOV template on it citing that edits from your likes are not neutral. See you again.
 * 10:54, 28 April 2024 (UTC) Fugabus (talk) 10:54, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
 * It has not been proven that I have a conflict of interest. Why should a new comer jump into Simon Ekpa? Your first edit was here in this talk page. See this. How did you find it? And you have since then advocated for a lot of things that only you agree with—this my friend is POV pushing. Best, Reading Beans  11:02, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, saying that I and Gråbergs want to edit the page is known as guilt tripping, I have seen this and more and I assure you that I am not moved by them. Best, Reading Beans  11:06, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Reading Beans
 * Wow, that's interesting to know from you. You are editing base on emotions. You were the one that created this page. Right? How did you come about creating it? So, Wikipedia is now hidden that only you would find it. Come on, let us be behave as Wikipedians here. I may imply that you have a Conflict of interest editor but that doesn't mean that actually. Why are you biting me as a newcomer which I agree I am? You are violating the Wikipedia Policies and guidelines.
 * Thanks for bringing my attention to the past editors anyway.
 * Sincerely,
 * Fugabus (talk) 11:24, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Fugabus, I didn't want to reply you but your latest addition which include "Why are you biting me as a newcomer which I agree I am? You are violating the Wikipedia Policies and guidelines." is another form of guilt tripping I am talking about. Also be aware of Wiki-lawyering. Best, Reading Beans  11:56, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Already made a statement here, it's not about 'biting' anyone, but accuracy. We are talking about a living person here. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 16:34, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Already made a statement here, it's not about 'biting' anyone, but accuracy. We are talking about a living person here. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 16:34, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Arbitrary break
The PM bit in the lead, at the time I'm writing this, is the following:

"He is the self-declared prime minister of a government-in-exile, the Biafra Republic Government in Exile (BRGIE), which was founded in 2023."

It's not how I would have written it (that is "He is the leader of the Biafra Republic Government in Exile (BRGIE), an organization he founded in 2023."), but it has the "self-declared", which, afaict, everyone in this thread except Fugabus sees as essential if PM is to be mentioned at all. "Self-declared" or a close synonym, anyway.

So, for the sake of peace and consensus, I can live with this version if I must. Opinions, Wikipedians? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:12, 26 April 2024 (UTC)


 * It is fine as it reads now. We are in lieu with reliable sources. Best, Reading Beans  12:28, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * And here we go we again. May I disagree base on Censorship that the media reported him to be self appointed doesn't make him self appointed. I suggest we should leave that Lead per my last tweak. It's very important we abide by the rules guiding Libel The body of the article already covered different reportage from RS referring to him as self-declared or self-acclaimed while Kuvalehti and International business times, International news media independent from the Nigerian government referred to him as PM which @Kennet.mattfolk comfirmed. Fugabus (talk) 18:20, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * We do indeed, WP:ADVOCACY-editor. Your opinion is noted. @Kennet.mattfolk and @Anachronist, care to voice an opinion on this particular issue? And since you think there is libel in the article, I suggest you use the mailadress in that page you just linked. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:33, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Self-declared, hmm, there are arguments for and against. In Kuvalehti you get the understanding that Ekpa is more appointed by a fraction/faction of separatists to represent them as "prime minister". Self-declared implies he is the main driver to this post of pm, while removing the qualifier self-declared may give an impression of legitimacy, that hey he really is an pm. We don't know exactly who and what got him there. In the same article he seem to give passing praise to Nnamdi Kanu, with Ekpa even posing in a photo with a picture of kanu on an shelf, with the text "leader" on it. If the choice is between a bad qualifier of "self-declared" and no qualifier, I vote qualifier, noting it's a bad one. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 18:55, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Kennet.mattfolk That is the advantage of the "leader" lead-version, we don't have to pick a caveat there. But, you can see a couple of alts linked in my OP, and here's another Yle:. Self-declared is from which Fugabus added as a ref in the lead.  Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:05, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The Yle article you link describes him as self-described prime minister, which I think is better than self-declared, due to more neutral connotation of self-declared which has a negative connotation. While Leader is good, but considering he considers Kanu too as a "Leader", you might end up with many person of the same title. Leader is too better than Self-declared, I prefer self-described. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 19:20, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Otoh, self-described has a hint that he's the only one who calls him that. IMO, that makes it worse. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:22, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

The legal stuff?
"It also turned out that Ekpa had marketed legal services, even though he is not a lawyer. His consulting firm had handled the affairs of asylum seekers, and the asylum seekers had mistaken him for their assistant. In fact, the cases were handled by Ekpa's ex-wife, although the clients had never met the lawyer's wife. " (Google translate) Is this something we should include, or does it fail WP:PROPORTION etc? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:56, 25 April 2024 (UTC)


 * In Finnish law, he is not allowed to represent clients in court, but only allowed/licensed to give legal advice. The client then needs another to lawyer in court. This is why many finnish sources say he's a businessman instead of an lawyer.
 * Did quick google: https://yle.fi/a/74-20019718
 * It talk about his legal firm. The article specifically states "ulkomaalaislakiin erikoistuneena asiantuntijana" or Expert specialized into foreign law, the word asiantuntija should be should be 'asianajaja' or 'lupalakimies' if he was a lawyer. He is maybe a legal advisor. The article expressly also states he is not an lawyer (asianajaja). Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 18:16, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * In your article linked only his wife is mentioned as a lawyer. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 18:23, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * From the Yle source, they reported he specializes in Immigration law. So, any editor can add that. Lead may read "immigration lawyer" instead of "lawyer" for clarity. Fugabus (talk) 22:26, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Immigration lawyer is still a lawyer, and Kennet.mattfolk just said he's not a lawyer. "Legal professional"? "Legal worker"? Or does that read like he's working in the courts? Which maybe he is, I have no idea. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:06, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Per Yle "says on his social media pages that he has worked in the legal field in Finland since 2009: first in a legal office in Lahti and later also through his own company Ekpa & Co." The company website seems to be gone, btw. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:09, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Could Ekpa be making this up? Best, Reading Beans  06:56, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Look, the title asianajaja is for those that are members of the bar association, while lupalakimies are free agents with the same legal license to represent in court. Legally, only asianajaja and lupalakimies are allowed to represent a client in court, which is how a lawyer is defined. His then wife was the lawyer. Ekpa however has a license to advise, though not in a court room etc. Ekpa himself tells Yle directly "Olen ollut oikeusneuvojana" or "I have been/worked as an legal adviser". The confusion is rather here on the wiki. Maybe this advising is counted as lawyering in some other places, not to my understanding in Finland where he has practised. For example, I cannot claim to be an Oikeusneuvoja, I would need a similar education to that of Ekpa for it, so he still has a vocation, it's not just lawyer. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 09:45, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Let's go with "legal adviser" then. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:02, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Fyi, asked the Finnish wikipedians for a second opinion, considering the constant confusion on the vocational title. :) Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 10:58, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

A note on socking in this article
Of the 10 editors listed under "Top 10 by added text" at, 4 are blocked for socking, and 2 more just indeffed. As editing environment, it's not great. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:18, 26 April 2024 (UTC)


 * It is not and we still have something that looks like meant puppetry lurking around. Best, Reading Beans  06:07, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Reading Beans and
 * @Gråbergs Gråa Sång
 * This is not healthy for this page I must tell. I learn everyday Here. There could be a solution? «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 01:12, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * WP:FULL, but that has some drawbacks. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 04:28, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * And another "Top 10 by added text" editor blocked for socking. I'm guessing I'm next. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:11, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Always look on the bright side of life. SPI is apparently even more backlogged than a FISA docket. Long live, in the meantime. JFHJr (㊟) 06:18, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Violence in the WP:LEAD?
There is quite a bit of violence mentioned in the Simon_Ekpa section. Should we add something on it in the lead, and if so, how? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:21, 26 April 2024 (UTC)


 * We also skipped the fact that he was dismissed by IPOB, this is what gave him attention in the first place.
 * According to Ekpa, IPOB was dissolved in a vote, renamed "Autopilot", and he became it's spokesman. Zubairu Dada, Nigerian minister, said the same year that "When [Ekpa] gives instructions, destruction follows. They cause killing, maiming, fires, whatever."—this statement by Dada is no joke. Vehicles, buildings, businesses were burned down with the supposed instructions from Ekpa. I have not really edited the article for a long time to avoid being bias. It was his violence that made the media to notice him.
 * Thank you for pointing this out, I have been so out of touch that I forgot. Best, Reading Beans  06:06, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I would mention he is accused of being responsible for violence, but qualifying it somehow, say by 'accused' or that he denies this. I think it is relevant to mention, but in a way where his statements are taken into account. Not just that with add something one sidedly. In the kuvalehti article he states he wants to replicate certain finnish institutions, such as the legal institition and according to him it's a suprise Nigeria is still standing. Something either if he justify his actions, then add that to counter a claim or if he denies it. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 09:56, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The challenge is to come up with something short and correct. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:20, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * How about this; Ekpa has been accused of separatism and violence by figures such as Zubairu­ Dada, Olajumoke Ayandele which Ekpa denies. However Ekpa has said he is the commander of Eastern Security Network and that he wants to bring functioning institutions, such that exists in Finland, to Nigeria. ref:kuvalehti
 * Though whats funny is that in the kuvalehti article;
 * ”Ekpan fraktio käy niiden kimppuun, jotka eivät noudata ulkona­liikkumiskieltoja ja niiden, joiden uskoo välittävän tietoa Nige­rian hallitukselle”, ACLED:n Nigerian-osaston päällikkö Olajumoke Ayandele kirjoittaa sähköpostissa.
 * ”Ei pidä paikkaansa”, Ekpa sanoo.
 * ”Sellaiset väitteet ovat hallituksen keksimiä, ne yrittävät mustamaalata kaikkea, mitä biafralaiset tekevät.”
 * Hallituksen joukot hyökkäävät jatkuvasti igboja vastaan, Ekpa sanoo.
 * Hän näyttää videoita, joissa panssarivaunut ampuvat toisiaan kohden. Toiset ovat kuulemma hallituksen joukkojen, toiset hänen johtamansa Biafran puolustusarmeijan.
 * Meaning he denies the claims, the next moment he reportedly show a video of a tank battle between Biafran separatists and Nigerian forces. He says the Nigerian forces don't go to those areas commanded by the separatists and therefore there is no violence, hence the claims are untrue. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 10:56, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Way too long for the lead, and the article atm doesn't even mention Eastern Security Network or Olajumoke Ayandele or that wish about functions. Maybe it should, but it doesn't. The lead is supposed to summarize the body.
 * I don't think separatism fall under accusations, it's the term for wanting to make a country out of a bit of another country. Also, he denies violence against civilians, at least according to one source. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:58, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * "Ekpa's activities have been reported to involve acts of violence."
 * How's that per several Yle and African sources? I'm not sure even Ekpa would disagree that's correct. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:34, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Maybe 'evolved in' otherwise thumbs up from me. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 12:57, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorry, "evolved"? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:00, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorry, involved :D Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 13:25, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorry again, not sure I get it. Can you write the sentence as you prefer it? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:29, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * "Ekpa's activities have been reported to be involved in acts of violence."
 * Makes it sound more like his activities are violent and not him. While your version manes it sound more like Ekpa is more a violent person. Just thought that my proposal sounds a bit better, but idk somebody can say what they prefer. :) Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 13:38, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * makes not manes, srry it's friday.
 * Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 13:41, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * My reading is that "activities" aren't "involved" (but activities involve), but that's me. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:11, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * That there are reports of violence doesn't mean it has been comfirmed nor that he has been convicted in any law court. Refer to BLPCRIME. Let's leave it for now till he is convicted. It would be considered libelous to add it. Meanwhile, Ekpa denied the accusations which is not being added in body of the article. 1 2.. This is what what we should be interested on. It would be interesting if he is convicted and then we may add it and not adding just mere accusations. ATM, it doesn't meet Manual of Style/Lead section
 * Fugabus (talk) 18:12, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Have you read the article? It already says Ekpa's activities have been reported to involve acts of violence, though in different words. But your WP:ADVOCACY view is noted, we'll see what other editors think. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:27, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Gråbergs Gråa Sång
 * Then, then it's better to leave it like that. At, Yle called him "Immigration lawyer" and your own terms still point to the same meaning which still falls under law. So, he's a lawyer.
 * Fugabus (talk) Fugabus (talk) 18:14, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Kennet.mattfolk, who speaks the language, says he's not. So listen to him. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:22, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I consider the term lawyer to mean a person who has the license to represent an client in court fi:asianajaja, even on the finnish wiki page it gives the english term lawyer as an alternative to this word. In Finnish media, from the start there has been made a distinction between Ekpa not being an asianajaja. I consider Lawyer and Asianajaja to be the same thing and according to my knowledge they are.
 * That said, I'm not a subject matter expert deep into legal jargon. I'm trying to translate/convey as accurately what the articles say as I can, due to Ekpa being a living person in our society. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 18:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Good enough for me. We can always try to get other people who know the language involved. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:46, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Btw, google translate agrees with me.
 * https://yle-fi.translate.goog/a/74-20019718?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp
 * It translates; "Ekpa kuvaa yrityksensä verkkosivuilla itseään asiantuntijaksi erityisesti ulkomaalaislaissa. Hän ei kuitenkaan edusta asiakkaitaan itse oikeudessa eikä ole asianajaja.
 * – Olen ollut oikeusneuvojana, Ekpa sanoi Ylelle perjantaina puhelimessa."
 * to
 * "Ekpa describes itself on company's website as an expert, especially in the law on foreigners. They are not representing his clients in court and is not a lawyer.
 * - I have been a legal advisor, Ekpa told Yle on the phone on Friday."
 * I had to check, it translates asianajaja from the Yle text as lawyer and as I above on another comment, translated oikeusneuvojana as legal advisor, google does so too. And the legal advisor is a direct quote from Ekpa himself, describing his own job title. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 19:15, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * That seems reasonable, at a guess it's illegal in Finland to market yourself as a lawyer if you're not. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:25, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * It is, it is also illegal to market yourself as legal advisor. That's one reason why Ekpa originally got in trouble with KRP, he had done unclear marketing and put his lawyer wife names on legal documents that he conducted. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 19:28, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Reminds me of The Rainmaker, they did something like that there. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:31, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * ...Are you saying we need a "self-described" on "legal advisor"? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:32, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Self-described Prime Minister, not the lawyer or legal advisor part. Lawyer seems more like a miss-translation of Finnish, while legal advisor is at least what he told Yle himself. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 19:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Got it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:45, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard
For the interested. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:52, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Prime Minister or not
Among the 40 page watchers on this article, you are all all invited to contribute to the ongoing discussion on Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard found here on whether Simon Ekpa is a Prime Minister or self-declared Prime Minister per the Lead. You may contribute there or under here as you all may wish.

Sincerely, Fugabus (talk) 17:16, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Splitting proposal
I propose that part of the section about Activism and separatism be split into a separate page called Biafra Liberation Army. Right now, typing "Biafra Liberation Army" into the search bar redirects to this article. This new BLA article will go into more detail about its stated objectives, statements, and attacks against Nigerian security forces. Battlesnake1 (talk) 03:43, 29 April 2024 (UTC) Battlesnake1 (talk) 03:43, 29 April 2024 (UTC)


 * I agree, they should be split, however they also need clarification.
 * 'Syntyi Biafran pakolaishallitus. Eastern Security Network muutettiin Biafran Security Forceksi, puolustusarmeijaksi.
 * ”Eli kaikki IPOB:n jäsenet ovat nykyään Biafran pakolaishallituksen puolella, paitsi muutama.”' source in the first post Simon_Ekpa/Kuvalehti.
 * According to this, Ekpa, when creating autopilot and the govt in exile, they just 'changed'(renamed) the Eastern Security Network into BLA. And that only a 'few' still support esn. Despite this claim is true or not, I think there should also be explainer on the relations between these different organisations. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 05:03, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment on sources you posted
 * 1. This source actually covers many of the same topics as Kuvalehti, both now confirm that Ekpa is claiming an Biafran force of 100,000. We now have two independent of each other sources saying this. Though Kuvalehti and Yle (forgot which of Yles articles) talk about him maybe commanding 'tens of thousands'.
 * 2. Seems to be based off of from Ekpa's twitter, I would rather use twitter if needed.
 * 3. Told me I need licence to access
 * 4. Also based on twitter, though with some small commentery.
 * 5. Imo the best source in your list as to content, but a lot of it is based on Emma Powerful and her quotes. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 05:19, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Note that Articles for deletion/Biafra Liberation Army was redirected per afd not that long ago (and bluelocked), and at least under that name, they are very recent (WP:SUSTAINED). The is pretty much WP:ABOUTSELF, as in "Ekpa says". So is .  can't access this, not sure on WP:RS/WP:SPS here, it's labeled as "chatter",  is more ABOUTSELF.  is a view worth noting, but IPOB is clearly not a  disinterested party. Suomen Kuvalehti had some thoughts on Emma Powerful.
 * I land at that the above sources don't meet WP:N, we don't have the independent, in-depth coverage to make a separate article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:45, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Should there then be a sub-section on here? On it that summerizes what we know, since there is the redirect and ppl might want specific info on BLA and are maybe not interested in Ekpa as a person. This can then later be split once we have the needed info Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 07:54, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Atm, BLA is part of a paragraph. How about starting expanding that with whatever good content there is, and if it swells much, make it an activism-separatism subsection? Any "Ekpa says" content should be in-text attributed as such IMO. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I added the P.M. News as a WP:ELMAYBE #4, what do you think? These images of the protect and defend people also falls under "Ekpa says." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:13, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Fwiw, pre-BLA, but GT-says "He says he commands the IPOB separatist group and its armed wing, the Eastern Security Network, which he calls the Self-Defense Force." If you want to use it, it's a named ref in the article already. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:00, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Kennet.mattfolk, please GT-check me, will you? (that's 2 YLE additions). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:14, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * ^- is ok. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 12:44, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Should we write something of the kuvalehti source as I proposed above? That finnish text in my first reply. It's a snipet, but kuvalehti talks about how his armed group got it's start. This might imo be key information for somebody confused about IPOB's ESN and Ekpa's group. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 12:54, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Say something like; 'According to Ekpa, BLA got it's start from IPOB's Eastern Security Network ref:kuvalehti' Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 13:04, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Should we mention that Ekpa shows kuvalehti footage of combat by BLA, though this might be too controversial. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 13:10, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily controversial (that he shows pics), but is it WP:PROPORTIONate? Try what you think best. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:18, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I got locked out again from the kuvalehti article. Need to try the website later again. Though I mention the text in Talk:Simon Ekpa. He tries to deny violence by showing proof of violent combat with Nigerian Security forces, there is no violence bc Nigeria doesn't go to areas controlled by BLA. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 13:24, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Try via . Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:28, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * ' Ekpa has continued Kanu's curfew orders, to protest the imprisonment of Kanu. Olajumoke Ayandele from ACLED criticize BLA for attacking those not following this curfew. Accusations that Ekpa denies. He shows an combat video between Nigeria's security forces and BLA to the Kuvalehti journalists. Ekpa then states "After the creation of the defensive forces, government forces no longer encroach on our area, because we have gunmen all over, that protect". Hence the claims of violence against civilians are untrue, according to Ekpa.


 * My proposal, it might be controversial. I also translated his quote myself, not via gt. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 13:57, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I probably need to copy edit that a bit more before publish. Haha Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 14:10, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Now, this must be a brilliant idea from you @Battlesnake1. The article is not worth a standalone article but having a section covering it under Simon Ekpa article page might help. When you put "Biafra Liberation Army" into the Wikipedia search bar, it redirects here and readers do not where to from there because it's scattered all over. Haha I support the split proposal and you may start it and let's see what you got and thereafter, we will expand it.
 * Fugabus (talk) 14:30, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I must have misread this, it seemed we agreed on something. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:22, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I like the "continued Kanu's curfew orders", I assume we're talking about the sit-at-homes here (so this bit should be inserted in connection with that), but it annoys me I don't find anything on Kanu's curfew orders in Nnamdi Kanu or Insurgency in Southeastern Nigeria (lots of Ekpa in that article I see).
 * Is she clearly criticizing BLA? But good comment, we can skip her name and make it "head of ACLED's Nigerian branch".
 * I'd skip the video (reasonable people may disagree), making the rest something like, "Ekpa denies violence against civilians, saying "After the creation of the defensive forces, government forces no longer encroach on our area, because we have gunmen all over, that protect." Ekpa denies violence against civilians is in the article already, so we rewrite that somehow, it doesn't need to be mentioned twice. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:41, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Something like this? 'Ekpa has continued Kanu's sit-at-home orders, to protest the imprisonment of Kanu. The head of ACLED's Nigerian branch criticizes 'Ekpa's faction' for attacking those not following this curfew. Ekpa denies violence against civilians, by stating "After the creation of the defensive forces, government forces no longer encroach on our area, because we have manpower all over, that protect".'
 * Changed the word gunmen to manpower, since the word has a more neutral tone as the Finnish miehistö, unlike gunmen, which on second thought sounded more negative. Well, she talks about Ekpas faction of IPOB who's attacking civillians, which is Ekpa's Biafran exile government, which 'army' is BLA. I assume she doesn't mean the bureaucratic arm of the exile govt is doing the violence. Anyhow, changed it for clarification. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 16:32, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah I'm not that sure when she said it. Looks ok to me, go for it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:37, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Kennet.mattfolk Found a little more on the Kanu sit-at-home here, I mentioned it in the WP-article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:47, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * That is good. The edit seems good, the source link just shows me a white page though :D Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 11:36, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Kennet.mattfolk Hm, works fine for me. Try a different browser? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:00, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * So "The Eastern Security Network was transformed into the Biafra Security Force, a defense army." is about BLA? GT of course. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:16, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Transformed is wrong, he say ESN was "renamed", though I guess the same thing. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 13:19, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Is reasonably close? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:25, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes it is, but I think I already saw you changed it to rename :D Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 14:36, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Say what you want about GT, it could be worse:. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:37, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * It's pretty good haha :D Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 14:38, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Ping afd closer @Star Mississippi if you feel like having an opinion. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:15, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the ping @Gråbergs Gråa Sång. My on wiki time is limited and I am facing a language issue here so I cannot delve into it right now. If you collectively feel as if they consensus reached in that AfD is no longer true, I'm happy to undo the protection or retarget the redirect to a section if BLA remains here. If factors have changed, I also don't believe it needs DRV. If I'm offline, please also take this as my OK for you to ask someone else to handle it. I don't want to be a hold up. Let me know how else I can help/ Star   Mississippi  01:37, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I remember now, we haven't concluded yet on this. Ping to and    and
 * From the history, you were involved in that AfD and now @Star Mississippi has a question has a question whether to undo the protect or retarget the redirect to a section under this article page.
 * Your contributions highly are needed here.
 * Comment with:
 * Undo protect
 * Retarget the redirect to a section
 * IMO, I think it is better to
 * Retarget the redirect to a section here.
 * «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 15:06, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm removing the ugly split template because it's been there over a week and no consensus appears to support the split. If anyone feels differently, just WP:BEBOLD and create an article or draft. WP:CONSENSUS will again decide, mostly based on reliable sources indicating the splinter group is anything other than paragraphs for this article. But by all means, carry on this discussion; nobody has closed it yet. Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 00:20, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

BRGIE Draft
I just thought of starting this Draft on Biafra Republic. All interested editors are welcomed to contribute, develop and expand it with all the RS available. @Gråbergs Gråa Sång @Kennet.mattfolk Fugabus (talk) 18:50, 29 April 2024 (UTC)


 * IMO it has no independent WP:N (WP:NORG may also be of interest) from this article, at this point in time, it's Ekpa's "thing", but that might change if it gets a next PM, a few years of existence or something like that. Has been afd at least once: Articles for deletion/Biafra Republic Government in Exile. More history at, and per this I'd advice that you don't move it to mainspace yourself if you feel it's ready to go, use the submission button. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:05, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Also "is the governing body of Biafra" is, well, perhaps you see it, perhaps not. Good luck with your draft. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:14, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Gråbergs Gråa Sång
 * I have seen that and this is the reason I want everyone who may wish to improve it. Someone already tried in the past. I consider dropping the draft for now because it doesn't meet Notability (organizations and companies) for now. RS are most centered on Ekpa and that is where everything fails. My Mentor already me what else to do. Thanks for pointing things out.
 * «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 00:32, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Recent major changes
My last edits added "Known for Biafran nationalism" to the Infobox and "Biafran nationalist" To the Lead and Biafran Nationalist to the Short description.

Best, «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 01:06, 2 May 2024 (UTC)


 * It doesn't make sense. No citation addressed him as a "nationalist". So, IMO I will say remove entirely and leave "Finish politician and legal advisor". Safari Scribe Edits! Talk! 01:11, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Consider WP:SHORTDESC. Per article content, "Finnish politician and legal advisor" doesn't work, IMO "Finnish politician and Biafran separatist" is good enough, also separatism is more than half the lead-content. Some WP:LEADREFs can probably be trimmed, but controversial/fought over topics tends to have a lot of them, sometimes extensive cite-bundles. If the article becomes more stable at some point, it may be easier to trim them. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:18, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Btw, if we have some good sources on Ekpa's nationalism, something on that could be reasonable to include. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:14, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Now you edits has changed MOS:ORDER. Safari Scribe Edits! Talk! 01:13, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * From a person point of view, many editors has talked about this article and something should be done. Sources needs to be the first case, since I can see REFBOMB in the lease mentioning words and not being independent. On another note, I will source and spit check those refs on this talk page and anyone is free to contribute. Safari Scribe Edits! Talk! 01:23, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think he was a professional footballer. Until then, I will leave it, till I find any other source. Safari Scribe Edits! Talk! 01:46, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Imo, some of the recent edits have been questionable, slowly changing wording to such that it no longer reflects a source. I would almost apply some form of protection on the article. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 08:18, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Fugabus, @Gråbergs Gråa Sång, and @Kennet.mattfolk, something can be done to stop this disruptive edits. I see that because the article content is not even stable, any unknown user can come and add anything. But if it becomes stable, pending changes can apply. For now, I will give my time to try this out and remove any form of word that isn't neutral at all or didn't correspond to the source. Even if at the end of the day, a good/correct article with "four-five" reliable sources is made, we'do be happy. I will start right away. Please all support needed when you think I got one wrong. @Gråbergs Gråa Sång, remember I told you I can help though I have a lot doing. Guys, off I start! Safari Scribe Edits! Talk! 08:44, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @SafariScribe, please take the time to read through the recent and linked discussions on this talkpage, if you haven't. And don't be too WP:RECKLESS. And if you have a view on the Talk:Simon_Ekpa thing, please let us know. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:49, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Got ya. Safari Scribe Edits! Talk! 08:58, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, Kennet.mattfolk actually speaks Finnish. It's not GT:s best friend. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:58, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Was just typing this :D. GT usually translates somewhat correctly, but the connotations can be wrong, bc GT uses a negative synonym vs the source a neutral one. Also finnish words with mamy English meanings can go wrong. Such pitfalls. Let me know if you need me to check something. :) Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 09:14, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * There is no problem. I also see the source in Finnish is reliable since it was from Yle. Safari Scribe Edits! Talk! 09:18, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * From the sources, why can't we call this Nigerian Finnish politician, lawyer, and Biafra.... I see there is a relationship b/w Nigeria and Finland, and from Nigerians in Finland, Ekpa is equally one. Safari Scribe Edits! Talk! 09:22, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Fine with me, but I think he and his followers object to him being called Nigerian, which won't surprise anyone who read the article. MOS:ETHNICITY is a bit tricky. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:33, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter too. We just have to correct the disputed invoked with this article. Check it out. Safari Scribe Edits! Talk! 09:35, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * He is not an lawyer! I'm ok with calling him Nigerian Finnish as long as this is in the body not the template where it concerns citizenship. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 10:00, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Help me check whether he served the Finnish Defence Forces which contains the Finnish Army. Do you know how they do there's there. I see it should just be army since the Finnish military is the three; army, navy, etc. Safari Scribe Edits! Talk! 10:04, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The source just state the military, which commonly is known as the army. But from a picture in the source we can see a reference to the Hämeen Rykmentti, which is a land army unit yes. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 10:18, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Gråbergs Gråa Sång @Kennet.mattfolk @SafariScribe
 * Thank you guys for the contributions. I read through all and it was worth it. We don't want to deviate down the line but I have to say per "Nationalist". Daily Post covered this per the meaning derived from the meaning of a Nationalist. Separatist or Nationalist? He is not fighting to separate from Nigeria but fighting to restore a lost sovereignty. You may also see Igbo nationalism Check the differences in meaning to see what accurately fits. It's all about revival and not starting a new thing. See also this section Biafra#Post-war_events_and_Biafran_nationalism Separatism means starting a new ideology that never existed while Nationalism means reviving the old one. IMO "Nationalist" is more grammatically correct to what he's known for. I would love to address all my edits here but it seems I missed it. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 19:40, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * No, he is. Biafra is a smaller state that needs to be separated from Nigeria. They are cited in the sources. Follow the citations in Activism. Safari Scribe Edits! Talk! 19:53, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Technically you can't restore something that was never gained. Biafra lost the war. However, nationalism and separatism are different terms and contain some overlap but also different aspects. Nationalism isn't so much the method as ideology, while separatism has an bigger emphasis on separating. For example you can have different ideologies wanting separatism, without being nationalist. Viet Minh wanted to separate from France, but had commuists, royalists etc. in there.
 * Ekpa could be both an separatist and an nationalist at the same time. The rebels usually prefers nationalist while the government separatist, typically. Just use both and clarify with good sources. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 19:53, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Separatist is more spot on, better for lead and, possibly, used in more sources. There is atm nothing about nationalism in the article. He is known for his whatever with at least 2 separatist orgs. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:46, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I will still argue this. He is no longer associated with IPOB, the separatist group. In fact, IPOB have dismissed and disowned him. See sources Punch, Sahara. FYI, these are PRIMARY sources and may not reflect all current status.
 * And when you say two separatist group, I don't know which other one you mean @Gråbergs Gråa Sång. The exiled government? The Kuvalehti report didn't treat them separatists but it treated them as Nationalists. The report said they plan to issue re-declaration of Biafra and I ping @Kennet.mattfolk here. Please give us more insight on the agenda of BRGIE. To separate from Nigeria or to restore the lost sovereignty of Biafra that existed between 1967-70. You always help here.
 * We as editors are here to evaluate things and not necessarily need a ref that directly called him 'Nationalist'. We rely on WP:SECONDARY the most for accurate information and to maintain consistency.
 * Characteristics of Nationalism surround EKPA per Suomenkuvalehti.fi and Daily Post Nigeria. As for the body, not having Nationalism, I will reform It. IMO in order to improve the page, things need to improve with the Secondary sources from Finland. Not From Nigeria because News media there are allegiance to the Nigerian state and are working for the Nigerian government. Ekpa is clearly anti Nigerian government state and there are Censorship from. That's why Finland sources are more independent and reliable. (Neutral) I have other things doing and I may not be regular here to reply all topics. Let's dive more deeper here. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 18:50, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
 * So, technically speaking, Ekpa is a Nationalist and not Separatist. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 18:53, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
 * He still claims command of an armed force that aim to separate Biafra from Nigeria. If he was only a nationalist he could try other methods. Gandhi did via strike action, other via advocasy, elections. He specifically advocates separatism as the method.
 * Kuvalehti is not an secondary source just fyi, the journalists actually sat down with Ekpa himself and put lots of direct quotes from him in there.
 * I think he is both an nationalist and separatist. If you want to use the terms, imo, just source them properly and write the article clearly so the reader know when someone talks about nationalism, the ideology, goals, and when separatism methods and goals. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 20:19, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Kennet.mattfolk
 * Nationalism is more strong hence I choosed it. I don't object to your suggestions either as I will apply it in my edits. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 20:44, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Hello @Kennet.mattfolk. You may wish to state your contributions on this direct, formal discussion on this topic opened by me as we set the record straight. I don't want your contributions to be disjointed here. Thanks
 * See Talk:Simon_Ekpa#Nationalist_or_Separatist_in_Wiki-voice and please state your contributions. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 21:20, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:SHORTDESC
At the time I write this, it's "Finnish politician and legal advisor" which doesn't fit article content. I suggest "Finnish politician and Biafran separatist". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)


 * But you know this isn't necessary creating a new thread. I added back the three per WP:SHORTDESC. The short description doesn't even matter that plenty instead to the article in question. It's is a given opinion and I love the fact you always try to clarify. Let's work on the article first. I am planing to take this to sandbox, I mean as copied. What do you think? Safari Scribe Edits! Talk! 09:01, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It's ok, I don't think "(born 1985)" is needed, he's no James Rowe, but that's me. A thread should try to stay on topic, when possible. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:11, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Removed. Safari Scribe Edits! Talk! 09:16, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * His legal firm when bust so replacing legal advisor woth Biafran separatist is ok with me. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 09:24, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Some sources still recognizes him as a lawyer too. I added three of them, it's good for me. Safari Scribe Edits! Talk! 09:27, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh!, he isn't a lawyer. Per YLE, he is also a self made legal advisor. This BLP eh, everything is just self-made! 😡 Safari Scribe Edits! Talk! 09:33, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * See discussion at Talk:Simon_Ekpa. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:34, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Just Legal advisor. No need for self made. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 10:20, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Lead expansion
Safari Scribe, I reverted you here:. That's not a summary of article content, it's just repetition. "Nigerian Finnish politician, former athlete, and legal advisor" is summary. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:47, 3 May 2024 (UTC)


 * I was trying to confirm a little thing here and there. Still working on that till I have to check where Häme Regiment should be or just Finish military. It's alright albeit I can't see myself do these any longer. Why couldn't you wait or do it yourself. Thanks for your effort towards this article I have this article to finish. Good luck with editing! Safari Scribe Edits! Talk! 12:42, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Häme Regiment is the training unit for conscripts in the province of Häme (hence the name) around modern city of Lahti. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 13:31, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Nationalist or Separatist in Wiki-voice
IMO, Nationalist is more technically correct per what Ekpa represents instead of Separatist.

A Nationalist believes to regain or maintain a lost Homeland while Separatist believes to create a new Homeland from existing State.

So, what fits Ekpa in this context? «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 19:05, 4 May 2024 (UTC)


 * That should be you pov. I guess nationalist identifies with his nation as well as support the interest. Ekpa from sources doesn't claim to be a Nigerian because he has the interest of Biafra, the short-lived state. Biafra is not a country too, and it simply explains "separatism". Please don't make threads long on something that didn't seem to be arguable. Safari Scribe <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Edits! Talk! 19:16, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
 * And that's from you right now and I quote you here: Ekpa from sources doesn't claim to be a Nigerian because he has the interest of Biafra, the short-lived state. 
 * I take it from you dear @SafariScribe
 * Now, let me break it down for us. If Ekpa denounced Nigeria and he believes in Biafra, a short-lived state, it technically means he is trying to revive that short-lived state making him a Nationalist. That state had already existed.
 * He would be rightly called a Separatist if he is fighting to separate from Nigeria (New course). Biafra had already separated and Ojukwu was that Separatist. People trying to revive Ojukwu's Biafra are Nationalists. Biafra was recognized by 5 countries according to sources. I read that from the Biafra page and you can also read.
 * Best of luck «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 20:56, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
 * He is a separatist because he wants to make a country from a bit of another country, that is separatism, and sources says so:. He may be a nationalist too, the terms are not mutually exclusive, but bring decent sources so we can write something in the article about that. He is more obviously a separatist though, that's his "thing." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:09, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I made my position clear above, in a nutshel, he's an nationalist using separatism as a way to get independence. Don't get this zero sum thinking of either or. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 07:03, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Btw, which is your best WP:RS that calls Ekpa a nationalist? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:59, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * hello I agree with you on that. He was a "Separatist" per PRIMARY sources but today, he's a Nationalist per SECONDARY.
 * Suomenkuvalehti.fi reported he plans to issue a declaration for a country that has not existed for a century and the records are not there. That's the reason believes he is a Nationalist while Primary sources called him Separatist and Ekpa even referred to himself as that then per sources but interpretation later changed down the line with secondary sources.
 * WP:SECONDARY contains analysis, evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas taken from primary sources.
 * Can't you see that was what suomenkuvalehti.fi did? «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 15:09, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It may interest to read Igbo nationalism. No source directly called them Nationalist but it was evaluated by the editors there because of their ideology to revive Igbo culture and that's what we should do here also per Kuvalehti report «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 15:11, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * So... According to you, Ekpa has stopped wanting/working for an independent Biafra at some point late last year or so? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:01, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Nope. You missed it @Gråbergs Gråa Sång. He didn't stop asking for independence but changed ideology from Separatism to Nationalism this year when the Kuvalehti reported he plans to declare Biafra, a short-lived state that existed between 1967-70. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 16:10, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Kennet.mattfolk
 * Technically, Biafra is a semi-sovereign nation with the government-in-exile existing. This argument is tough. Lol. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 16:13, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Then he is a separatist. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:25, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I didn't assert he is a Separatist. You are putting that into my mouth. I said Biafra is a semi-sovereign nation, with effect of the government-in-exile making Ekpa a Nationalist. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 16:31, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * That is your WP:OR. But if you have some WP:RS, like say the UN, that states "Biafra is a semi-sovereign nation", that could be of use in an article somewhere. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:34, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Kennet.mattfolk I agree with you on this your submission. Yes, he is a Nationalist and Separatist. I already tweaked the section "Activism and separatism" to Nationalism and separatism ".
 * The section will clarify everything we are discussing here with that Kuvalehti report. Off to the article page again. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 16:35, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * And I revert it since there's nothing about nationalism in that section. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:48, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think they are even a semi-sovereign nation. I'm talking about a nationstate. Being semi-sovereign nation would require having some diplomatic relations, Estonian government-in-exile had some foreign recognition.Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 16:53, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * An nationalist wants to establish an national state? In Kuvalehti he talks about establishing an Biafra with institutions like that of Finland. Meaning he doesn't want an anarchistic, tribal or any other alternative. The same source also has Ekpa showing them footage of fighting and talk on armed forces etc. Meaning Ekpa is no Gandhi. One sorce shows
 * Quotes:
 * -"Ekpa johti Biafran itsenäisyyttä ajavaa separatistiryhmän siipeä, joka vastusti Nigerian keskushallintoa. "
 * Confirms separatism
 * -"Oikeusjärjestelmästä tulee samanlainen kuin Suomessa, pääministeri ilmoittaa, ja selittää sen toimintatavan: se on jaettu hallinto-oikeuteen ja rikosoikeuteen. Hän on henkilökohtaisesti todennut, asuttuaan vuosia Suomessa, että järjestelmä sopii hyvin Biafraan. "
 * Goal of establishing a western justice inatitution
 * -'”Katsomme kohti itsenäistä Biafraa, jossa ei ole rikollisuutta, jossa laki on sama kaikille, jossa oikeus tapahtuu, jossa rikolliset joutuvat vastuuseen ja jossa poliisi ei ole korruptoitunut.”'
 * He talks about his goals directly. he talks about a Biafra with instituutions
 * -"Hallitus käyttää aina väkivaltaa, Ekpa sanoo, eikä siihen voi vastata kuin väkivallalla. On pakko puolustautua. Puolustusvarat kerätään lahjoituksina. "
 * Separatism.
 * Etc.
 * I think him as a Nationalist who wants to establish an nationstate via violent separatism. Thus a nationalist and separatist. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 15:48, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying he's not a nationalist too, but for us to say it we should have something good clearly stating it. And I still think separatist is the more obvious of the two. If there's a RS quote of him saying he's a nationalist somewhere, we can put that in the article somewhere, perhaps. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:53, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * That's the thing, in mass media terms, one tends to be an separatist until one wins and becomes and nationalist. Though it's a bit spoon-feedery imo. Ppl should know enough to make up their own minds, the wiki isn't imo supposed to pick sides. Nationalist pro-Biafra, separatist pro-Nigeria. Because Nationalist implies there already is an Biafra, which there is not. While Separatist emphesizes the violence, trying to de-emphazise the goals behind it. Alone both terms are bad imo. I would just use the term nationalist when the question is about institutions, a nationstate and separatist when about violence, commands and what not. Then let the reader figure the rest out. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 16:08, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Did Mandela become a nationalist when he won? Maybe, idk. I don't think it's that simple, nationalism is not exactly violence free, and sometimes involves "Hey, those bits of land should be ours!". To use the term nationalist in a BLP you should have good sources for that. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:19, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * On the goals/vision bits you quote above, to me that sounds more like politics than nationalism. Nationalism would be something like "Only Igbo people will be allowed to be citizens in our country." "where the law is the same for everyone" can probably fit in any (official) ideology. But, we're interpreting, that's not good around here. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:16, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Nationalism is politics, it's an political ideology, political parties may even advocate it in elections. Sweden Democrats may be a nationalist party today, because they can be that, if Sweden where part of an Eastern Federation they may have an militia and be called separatistic instead. Just an general observation over the years.
 * That's the thing, we're talking about politically loaded terms, when someone reads the wiki page they may associate our words in a certain way. That's the problem with labels. Sepafatist is in my ears a little better than 'rebel' . Yle in one article [] uses the word 'Nigerian revolt-er' basically rebel, with the connotation of 'revolting' vs 'rebelling'. These are all choices. Same with Fugabus wanting Nationalist.
 * Personally I prefer to give the reader what the source says and letting the reader do the thinking. If the word nationalist is too scary, then write about his goals, say he wants to build an Biafra that looks like x. Then leave the reader to figure out if it is separatism or nationalism. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 17:47, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Nationalism is politics, politics is not necessarily nationalism. IMO, separatism/separatist is not a loaded term here, it's well used in sources and fits per text-book definition, wants to carve out a country from another country. I'm reminded of discussions on bible-stories being called myths on WP. If you want add something reasonable about how he has a vision of Biafra doing some stuff in the future like Finland, you can try that, but that is not obviously nationalism, at least not to me. Again, sources that discuss the nationalism of Ekpa, calling it nationalism, would help. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:57, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, if we look at the wiki text atm, it gives an impression of a guy who wants an entity called Biafra to separate from this other entity Nigeria and that he kills people, basically. It doesn't say much of why or what his goals are. Thus the context of the article also matter, to me it reads more like he's an 'rebel'. Don't get me I agree those things that are in the article should be there. There could be more. My view is that we should make the information avalable for the reader to make their own minds up, when the current wiki-voice is rebel leader. Therefore, it could be good to add stuff that awnser that why and what, the term nationalism plays into those questions. Anyhow, if ppl want only separatism and a focus on that I can live with that. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 18:14, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Gråbergs Gråa Sång, if I write somethibg on those why and what, should I run it by this talk page first? Normally I just post with sources considering the controversy on this talk page. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 18:28, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Either 1) be bold both expecting and respecting reverts with an intent by you to talkpage it at that point; or 2) talkpage it first. Either is fine. JFHJr (㊟) 18:32, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Kennet.mattfolk Be as WP:RECKLESS as you think is good. Consider the WP:ABOUTSELF and WP:PROPORTION aspects, per WP-philosophy, a lot of "Ekpa on Ekpa" is not our goal. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:33, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Kennet.mattfolk I'm not at all sure this is a reasonable idea, but looking at some other articles on politicians, you could consider a "Political positions" section. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:15, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't wish to escalate this. I choose to remain mute in this sense. Biafra existed with recognitions from 5 countries. They haven't withdrawn their recognitions and the government in Exile still enjoys it technically. Things were just restored!Settling for Nationalist and Separatist on the body of this article maybe the best. No Separatist and no Nationalist since this is problematic with @Gråbergs Gråa Sång and @JFHJr.
 * I said I would reform the body to reflect things. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 18:34, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * PS. Being bold and just doing the edit is helpful in that the rest of us can see exactly how your changes look. Having a diff available can help consensus building especially if content reverted and only partially restored. JFHJr (㊟) 18:35, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'll do the usually then, over-source. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 18:38, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Chiming in from WP:BLPN: Does any RS say "nationalist"? If so, does the implicit "nation" exist in a way that enjoys international recognition? If not, the subject is a separatist, as RS appear to state currently. The TP comment and line of reasoning only predecessors were separatist, considering the separation a fait accompli and subsequent activists "nationalist", either refers some wonderful unshared RS, or reflects a heaping spoonful of original research. Cheers! JFHJr (㊟) 17:40, 5 May 2024 (UTC)


 * I'm ok with calling him only a separatist, even though it's a bit incorrect. Tometo Tomato. A too careful approach may sometimes be incorrect and only reactive. That's the choice many make these days, incl wiki from my feeling. However, I sucpect @Fugabus won't be a happy cookie with that. :D Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 17:56, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Happiness is always a choice. We try to build a consensus here. JFHJr (㊟) 18:07, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Fwiw, I don't think we have to add "separatist" to the lead, IMO it works well enough as currently written on that point. But I do think infobox "Known for" is right as it is at the time I'm writing this, and anything called "Nationalism" in this article needs to be OR-free. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:08, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Exactly this. Thank you GGS. JFHJr (㊟) 18:18, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * To some he's known as prime minister haha :D, choices choices. Ok let's not re-open that can of worms. :D Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 18:23, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Gråbergs Gråa Sång When you say ABOUTSELF,honestlyI don't understand.
 * Herra pääministeri
 * Suomessa valittiin viime syksynä hallitus Afrikan maalle, jota ei ole ollut olemassa puoleen vuosisataan. Sitä johtaa lahtelainen Simon Ekpa. Tähän mennessä hän on aiheuttanut diplomaattisen selkkauksen ja poliisitutkinnan. Seuraavaksi hän aikoo antaa
 * There was an election that elected Ekpa as the Prime Minister as verified and comfirmed by Kuvalehti.
 * Daily post Nigeria also comfirmed the election.
 * I don't know where you found ABOUTSELF reports or are you still relying on initial sources?understand. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 18:51, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * ABOUTSELF was about the content I was discussing with Kennet Mattfolk. Your copypaste is not part of it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:59, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Translation: "In Finland last fall, a government was elected for an African country that has not existed for half a century. It is managed by Simon Ekpa from Lahti. So far, he has caused a diplomatic row and a police investigation." This doesn't even imply the nation actually exists at all, does it? JFHJr (㊟) 19:01, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Details, details. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:10, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * My POV: today is Pascha but the word of the day might be paska. Close enough. Kali anastasi. JFHJr (㊟) 19:25, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Category:Profanity by language. WP, how can you not love it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:33, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Kennet.mattfolk is a Finnish. Don't trust GT and that was why I didn't translate either. Let's leave it for KM. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 19:39, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @JFHJr, you should translate the entire article, it runs through every thing. It doesn't confirm the nation exists. It confirms the intent to establish this nation and state.
 * From Nationalism: As a movement, it presupposes the existence[3] and tends to promote the interests of a particular nation,[4] especially with the aim of gaining and maintaining its sovereignty (self-governance) over its perceived homeland to create a nation-state
 * Note that last part, "the aim of gaining" and to "to create a nation-state". Those criterias do get filled by the Kuvalehti article. Nationalism doesn't mandate the state already existing.
 * Kuvalehti talks about the brgie establishing nationstate institutions in Biafra under an state named Biafra, led by a government, which in turn is led by Ekpa as pm. The question in the article is rather that a bunch of ppl dispute this brgie etc. IPOB dismissed it snd so forth. The article may not use the key smoking gun word, but imv it does fill the criteria of nationalism. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 20:27, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The translation was a courtesy for others. I can actually read it in Finnish with very little help (but I could only respond about it in colloquial Finnish, and I wouldn't here, as a courtesy). The original research is apparent. JFHJr (㊟) 20:39, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Regarding this source, topic of reversions (see here and move forward): I have viewed it, and the source passes WP:V for the claim it makes. Whether it's a RS is something else. Nothing on the host site appears archivable, so expect someone to say it fails V in the future (and they won't be wrong). Cheers! JFHJr (㊟) 19:54, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Coming from BLPN, I'm finding it difficult to offer any comment since IMO most of the discussion above is unhelpful to resolving the issue. I don't think we should be debating definitions of nationalism and separatism. Instead we need to concentrate on what sources say. What are the best sources which call him an nationalist? What are the best sources which call him a separatist? We need sources which clearly call him that in English or some other language. To be clear, this means sources which talk about the Biafra nation, of the history of Biafra, or which say he is trying to establish a Biafra etc are irrelevant. The sources need to call Ekpa or at least the group he leads nationalist or separatist. Nil Einne (talk) 10:24, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Nil Einne, separatist sources include Here is one nationalist  but only as part of a quote, so IMO that has less weight. RS-ness of African media is not that easy to judge, but considering the subject, to some extent they're what we got, and it would be strange to rule them out completely. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:51, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @JFHJr, I tweaked that bit and added another ref. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:18, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Good edits, closely following reliable sources. Thanks for doing them. Including this correction of another editor disregarding consensus here on the matter of labeling. JFHJr (㊟) 23:40, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * And there wasn't much resembling nationalism following that heading, and afaik nothing about it in the sources in the text. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:45, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Footballer or Athlete?
The first section reads "As a child, Ekpa was a local football player and later, a professional winning the 100 meters silver medal for Nigeria at the 2003 African Junior Athletics Championships in Cameroon."

Was Ekpa a footballer or an Athlete? I don't get this actually. This is complicated! And the Lead even has Athlete making matters worst. It's better to remove that athlete from the Lead not confuse readers. What do you all think? «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 15:25, 5 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Source? Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 15:52, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Ok, found it https://www.thecable.ng/close-up-simon-ekpa-nnamdi-kanus-finland-based-disciple-and-king-of-fake-news/amp/ Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 15:53, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Nothing about football there, removed it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:57, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Athlete. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 15:59, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Good we rectified this. SefariScribe was the one who added that mess. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 16:05, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * And you should correct it without further saying it. Safari Scribe <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Edits! Talk! 20:32, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Editwar on WP:LEAD "self-declared" again
Please comment on that. WP:CONSENSUS per Talk:Simon_Ekpa is to include. Ping @Anachronist@Reading Beans@Wikishovel@AndyTheGrump. Recent talkpager commentators, I assume you're watching. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:01, 5 May 2024 (UTC)


 * We agreed that self-declared would be there until a source States he is the Prime Minister. I found this source convincing enough today and that was why I added that. I didn't make the edit without ref. My goodness, that's SECONDARY and no intentions of starting edit war.
 * Best regards «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 20:07, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't see anybody in that thread agreeing that. It was pointed out that sources differ in their approach. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:12, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Your source refers to him as "Prime Minister of BRGIE" and "BRGIE Prime Minister" but certainly not the PM of Biafra, does it? Should I look another place? JFHJr (㊟) 20:21, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * PS. Can you think of a reason anything BRGIE does isn't fairly "self-declared" since it's not even in the country? Even if a handful of nations recognize Biafra, see cases like Abkhazia and South Ossetia and their leaders for guidance: there's even a de-facto separation, yet they're still called separatists and even sometimes self-declared. JFHJr (㊟) 20:28, 5 May 2024 (UTC)


 * He gave himself the title of Prime Minister. Sources say that. It's an undisputed historical fact. That historical fact does not change just because some sources refer to him as Prime Ministor, self-declared or not. ~Anachronist (talk) 20:35, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Gråbergs Gråa Sång It may interest you to see the original announcement from Simon Ekpa on X platform reported by ICIR
 * Compare and contrast.
 * ICIR even on the news lead independently stated thus:
 * "CONTROVERSIAL pro-Biafra agitator and self-acclaimed spokesperson Simon Ekpa, has announced his appointment as the first Prime Minister of the Biafra Republic Government in Exile (BRGIE)."
 * And per ICIR, they reported he announced his appointment and not that he self-declared himself anything...
 * You can stop asserting that he's self-declared Prime Minister historicaly. You don't expect a government-in-exile to have full control yet of their perceived territory and affairs because they're aren't a full country yet. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 20:52, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Ping to «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 20:54, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * And again @JFHJr, that wasn't my source. This was my source
 * Best, «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 21:00, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It says "In April 2023, Simon was eventually elected Prime Minister of the Biafra Republic Government In-Exile, BRGIE. The BRGIE has more than 200 Cabinet ministers located across the world and liaison offices in countries across multiple continents." He's a PM of the organization, despite the headline. JFHJr (㊟) 21:07, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * So that tweet is where he declared himself PM. And then other sources noted that he had declared himself PM, using a variety of words, "self announced", "self acclaimed" etc. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:00, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 'Government in exile' is also self-declared. At no point has it been stated by any credible source that Ekpa's organisation has any continuity with the Biafran government of 1967 to 1970. Ekpa's 'government' has no control over any territory now, and never had any. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:05, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It's a 200-member Zoom meeting. JFHJr (㊟) 21:10, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * And they possibly have something of an army or at least armed people. Power grows out of the barrel of a gun etc. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:14, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Hmm. But where is THIS org's army? ...not (m)any are even in Nigeria are they? They're all in exile somewhere else. Maybe things still grow out of the barrel of a gun ...but in Finland and by correspondence in this org's case. JFHJr (㊟) 21:24, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Here are some words on that, from guess who:. This is more independent. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:34, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * if you read the article carefully, there are armed groups in Nigeria who may or may not be partly following him and   I think it's quite difficult to know how significant these armed groups are, and whether they're actually following his orders or just doing whatever they want which may sometimes be the same thing as what Ekpa says and may others time be something else. (And maybe sometimes Ekpa gets word of what they are doing and claims he ordered it.)  Good journalism in the area is undoubtedly limited by various factors including violence and few resources put into it. And in this particular case, from what they're saying I think both Ekpa and the Nigeria government have reasons to playup Ekpa's role even if the armed groups might not really give a fuck about whatever Ekpa says. So it's possible that Ekpa actually has little role on the ground whatever is really going on there. (And frankly, if the reports are true, Ekpa sounds much more like a terrorist or warlord than a prime minister.)  But still it's possible his "government-in-exile" is not just some dumb paper thing but a fairly harmful entity with some real force behind it.  Nil Einne (talk) 08:57, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Nil Einne I pretty much agree with you, my best OR-guess is that he has some regional influence, but how much I don't know. I'm guessing many people living there would like less fighting and killing. Some pretty pictures at . Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:01, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Btw, you may want to read, decent attempt at good journalism. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:06, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * But the funny thing is, that at least according to WP, the bar to being a Government-in-exile is saying you are a Government-in-exile. So by naming his org that, hey presto. It's annoying. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:11, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Funnier thing is this is a BLP and not the org's article. And we can say no. JFHJr (㊟) 21:14, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, now you see it @JFHJr. He's a PM of the Biafra Republic Government in Exile and not PM of Biafra but @Gråbergs Gråa Sång would rather not see them. They skipped and disregarded all WP:SECONDARY sources and that's not fair. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 21:18, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * You have come again with this @Gråbergs Gråa Sång. Thought Kennet.mattfolk resolved and cleared you on this the other day. They have headquarter in the US and their Financial Minister lives there.
 * They didn't just answer Government in Exile per your claims of "the bar to being a Government-in-exile is saying you are a Government-in-exile."
 * You are making already resolved issue here worst again with that. Be understanding.
 * Sincerely, «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 21:22, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Having a HQ in US has nothing to do with being gie or not. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:26, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @JFHJr The Army is in Biafra. See Talk :Simon Ekpa#Splitting proposal «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 21:29, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * So what's being gie in your own accepted opinion? You arguments now seem to be unproductive. Not factual!
 * So sorry @Gråbergs Gråa Sång «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 21:32, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Like I said, gie is something that calls itself gie, at least according to some definitions. Since you argue with me on this, I assume you agree with AtG:s "'Government in exile' is also self-declared." I was slighly objecting to. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:37, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Despite the self-named "Biafra Republic Government in Exile" name, it's simply an organization. Perhaps best to call it BRGIE to avoid semantic confusion. The group is a self-proclaimed GIE, but is not the successor of any exiled government. It is a separatist organization formed in exile. It calls its head a PM. JFHJr (㊟) 21:37, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The current version was an attempt at compromise (long thread above) but as can be seen it didn't work. The version before that was "He is the leader of the Biafra Republic Government in Exile (BRGIE), an organization he founded in 2023." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:40, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * That is actually neutrally worded. JFHJr (㊟) 21:41, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I thought so. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:42, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarity @JFHJr. These has been our points here. May I assume this is resolved?
 * I am off to remove that self-declared and add the ref again.
 * Best regards, «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 21:44, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * You can’t say he is the "Leader" because the organization doesn't call their head "Leader" but PM per JFHjr. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 21:48, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * That is not what I said at all. He is merely the head of an org. If it called him "Messiah," I would make a differently worded edit congruent to the one I just did. I'd change one word. JFHJr (㊟) 22:06, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * That's better now. Thanks for coming in to resolve this difficult dispute which has taken us a lot of efforts. At least, the Lead will now be permanent until further notice or else solid secondary sources come in for future. Respect to you @JFHJr. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 22:14, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * My view is that there needs to be a qualifier, in the old thread I proposed Self-described prime minister. Another could be named prime minister or disputed prime minister. However I settled on self-declared in that talk since it was better than Prime minister alone. If IPOB, Nigerian govt and numerous others dispute in any way, then he's not an undisputed PM, but he was still declared PM so he is not, not an pm. To me self-declared sounds a bit Napoleonic, with Ekpa just putting himself in the lead, as if he had no genuine support other than that. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 04:42, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * So, do you find the current version acceptable? I do. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 04:47, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Better :) Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 09:20, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * How delightfully ambiguous :P I'm counting you on the current consensus side anyway, so there. And yes, better than the version it replaced, absolutely. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:33, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, I can live with it, you could always argue over this endlessly. Leader (pm) is still an improvement on what was before so :D Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 12:19, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I think that Fugabus is POV-pushing with all this and wasting community time. I won't be surprised if they change a thing in this specific article after a consensus is reached here. I apologize if I'm wrong about this. Best, Reading Beans  21:55, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Hello fellow editors. I just made the edit here removing the Contentious content.
 * Hope we do all this to stay for peace sake.
 * Best, «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 21:58, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Fixed it. We don't have to call him the PM of anything, but we can mention it for reference clarity. He's the leader of the organization he founded. JFHJr (㊟) 21:57, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

fi:Keskustelu:Simon_Ekpa
I mentioned earlier in the Talk:Simon_Ekpa that I asked fiwiki for help in translating the legal title of Ekpa. If I understand them correctly, the fact that Ekpa uses the Legal Advisor title is already illegal. The oikeusneuvoja title may be made up.

fi:Simon_Ekpa should be imo translated. From my understanding he has no legal vocation and running a company where he has claimed to be a lawyer or legal advisor is illegal.

I may attempt a translation later of the section. However for our purposes here, I'm wondering if we should at all have any legal titles anywhere in the article in regards to Ekpa and his legal vocations? Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 18:51, 7 May 2024 (UTC)


 * This Yle article already appears as a source in the English version. It is the only source that appears to support "legal advisor" occupation. Upon WP:V, the source clearly states 1) this is the subject's occupation, and 2) he might be conducting it without the proper qualifications. He was even briefly detained for questioning for this. But until and unless the subject is actually charged or convicted in relation, it appears to be WP:OR to state or imply in wikivoice that he's broken a law or operates illegally in his occupation. I don't doubt his future might entail just that, but it hasn't happened yet. I haven't read the Finnish Wikipedia entry because I'd rather read sources that are offered here. JFHJr (㊟) 20:29, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Well when I originally used material from that and other sources here, I wasn't aware of all the context. On finnish wiki they seem to have dug through the finnish bar association, Ekpa's distant studies institution etc. Finding no trace of a title or an vocation of legal advisor, not even the studies he conducted gives that. Also from my understanding of Finnish law forbids you to falsely marketing yourself as an legal advisor, doctor, police, lawyer etc. So when he told Yle that he was an legal advisor, he broke the law. Though I'm not an legal expert (reason why I originally asked somebody else to be the translator haha). Ekpa further marketed himself as an actual lawyer, which his clients only found out from the paperwork later, that he wasn't a lawyer.
 * So I had personally under estimated how bad that was earlier. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 05:14, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * On balance, the lack of coverage about his legal career relative to the rest indicated it didn't merit the WP:WEIGHT of a lede mention. But it can stay in the infobox. Less-relevant stuff like parentage goes there too. JFHJr (㊟) 20:49, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * My general understanding is that the info-box should be simple facts from the WP-article text. Which it is atm, but I don't know what you had in mind about "parentage". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:10, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * That's it, the legal advisor is just Ekpa's claim, he doesn't even have that proficiency. I feel like a fool for having trusted his words in that article. I thought he had only lied about being a lawyer, essentially overstated his proficiancy. In the infobox, it should thus be Legal Advisor (claimed) or removed. Anyhow, when I have the time I'll go through the sources myself when I translate the relevant section. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 06:20, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I think that at this point we can just remove legal advisor from infobox and shortdesc. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:35, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Just brought over one section from fiwiki. I think fi:Simon_Ekpa might still be good to bring over since it relates to how he falsely misrepresented his non-existing law firm and degree Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 08:17, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Subsections in Activism and separatism section?
The intent in this section is roughly chronological, but some sub-topics seem to be forming. Would it improve things to give for example sit-at-homes and BLA their own subsections? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:26, 8 May 2024 (UTC)


 * This is a bit what I was after in the Nationalism debate, have one section talking about the violence, another more on the why, the ideology of it. The SAH and BLA section could contain the violence and other separatist stuff. The other could more be about:self, values, IPOB-BRGIE-related stuff etc related to "separatism". Idk. Haven't had time to focus on that myself, I'm looking to translate some fiwiki stuff tomorrow or on the weekend. If you have some ideas I support making sub-sections :) Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 11:44, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Btw, is there a fi-WP article that fits this article's "city councillor"? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:08, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * You mean his political career in Lahti? Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 08:18, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * fi:Simon_Ekpa he's been in several elections, never actually elected. But he has worked in the Lahti's board of mass transit, which ultimately is under the City council. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 08:20, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I was thinking maybe I could make "city councillor" a Template:Interlanguage link if there was something good on fi-WP to link, as in an article about what a Finnish "city councillor" is. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:32, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Such as City council or City Councillor? Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 08:36, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Bingo! However, Kunnanvaltuutettu seems to say this is an elected position. Are we using the term correctly? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:51, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes that's the person, while the council is where he does his/her stuff.In swedish, Kommun fullmäktige and Fullmäktigeledamot. Their elected, this is what for example Ekpa wanted to become in Lahti when he stood in the city/municipal elections. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 09:03, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Not worth linking to in this case, then. Thanks! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:35, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

New law degree expansion
@Kennet.mattfolk, looked very briefly at this. 2 comments: "but at the inquisitive attempts by Yle to the University, the University didn't give any information about the degree." appears to me as a very weak statement to make in a WP:BLP, failing WP:PROPORTION. As written, it sounds like Yle asked, uni said "none of your business." which may be a very proper reply. Also, it seems you have some WP:BLPPRIMARY sources in there (Juristiliitto or Suomen Asianajajaliitto), not ok on en-WP. We don't read these ourselves, we need Yle to do it for us. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:32, 9 May 2024 (UTC)


 * I went for accurate translation, not best copy edit. In finnish words change meaning depending on how words are suffixed. So keep that in mind. Thus that quote is as it was in fiwiki, ofc translated by me. Feel free to change it.
 * On the primary vs secondary. Their associations/unions interperting the law in this case, the law is primary. Anyhow just used the sources from given fiwiki. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 12:36, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, WP:s do things differently. And Wikipedians, of course. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:13, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @JFHJr, care to have an opinion? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:19, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, on "the University didn't give any information about the degree". Your in-cite translation reads "Yle asked the university about this. There was no information about any degrees"
 * Which is it, the uni didn't give any info or they didn't have any info? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:31, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, this doesn't sound like a good translation: "According to Aberystwyth University, the question [what/who's question?] is about a paid degree done via a distant mail-in course, that doesn't lead to a legal vocation or the right to use the title lakimies or asianaja. To common knowledge, Ekpa doesn't have an lower or higher Legal degree from before." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:39, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I axed what IMO was WP:BLPPRIMARY stuff. Also, none of those links mentioned Ekpa. WP:BLP is a harsh mistress. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:46, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I am certain Kennet's English is better than my Finnish, so let's not feel married to the translation in the ref quote markup, which I edited. We definitely need a secondary source to support claims, or they should just be taken out. The same source does flatly state "[and] he is not a lawyer," does it not Kennet? Perhaps the Abertswyth content is simply unsupported by what any secondary RS says, and should go. JFHJr (㊟) 20:03, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * He's not an lawyer, even the Yle article used in the text flat out states that. In a Finnish context, if you cannot represent a client in court, your not an lawyer. I don't get why ppl still are confused on this.
 * As stated above, I translated the original. Also as stated, it may need copy edit, I did the translating. Thus if something where expressed in a certain way, that was how I translated it. So "the question is about a paid degree" may in english sound ambigous, but's the way it was written. It's a common way of emphesising something, in this case that the degree was a paid one. In swedish it would be 'frågan är angående'.
 * When translating you have to chose between how literally you translate vs how much of the meaning you translate. I tend to prefer to use the original language phrasing as far as possible, just to stay genuine to the source. Otherwise you may end up mistaking something for a lawyer when it's some other legal title and creating more confusion than with a more literal approach.
 * If you don't like it, nuke it, edit it, do what you like, this is wikipedia after all, where everybody pitch in. I decided to be brave, not that I would need to do all the work perfectly from start to finish. It gets pretty time-consuming pretty fast. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 21:06, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I appreciate of any effort to get well-sourced content we "missed" into the article. How sources are used in a WP:BLP has some pretty strict rules on en-WP, and IMO this article, thanks to significant effort from you and others, is currently in decent shape regarding the sources currently used. I'd like it if we can keep it that way. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:53, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Signature
I added a signature to the article page Infobox per talk with Gråbergs Gråa Sång User_talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång#Signature

Editors may wish to modify. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 23:17, 9 May 2024 (UTC)


 * @Fugabus, how did you get the information? Best, Reading Beans  23:29, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I am asking because the signature there does not seem to be gotten from those images. You may wish to disagree. Best, Reading Beans  23:33, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Since the source you give is "own work" (compare ), that means you are Simon Ekpa. If that's a mistake, you should correct it. Per Commons philosophy, taking a picture of a picture/document does not make the new picture "own work." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:27, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * For the interested, the WP-essay on including signatures says "Generally, there is no consensus on the reproduction of signatures of living persons in Wikipedia. If inclusion is challenged discussion on the relevant article talkpage to decide the value of reproducing a signature would be appropriate."
 * If the upload is correctly done (which may not currently be the case per "own work") I'm not challenging it, to me it's "meh". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:09, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Off-topic, but last year an American politician got really upset finding her signature on WP:. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:17, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Yann, can you help us out? Is Commons-good as is? If not, what is needed? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:33, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I fixed the author. The copyright of signatures depends very much of the country. Some countries do give a copyright to signatures, some don't. Yann (talk) 10:10, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:24, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I think that's resolved now by other editors. I will do little touch there but not now. Thanks «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 19:15, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Ekpa and Ijaw Youth Council
Is it worth mentioning? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:51, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

AU Court recognition
AU in a letter letter dated 23 May 2023 acknowledged BRGIE and Simon Ekpa as it's Prime Minister and head and President Bola Tinubu as the head of the federal Republic of Nigeria as they dragged the Nigerian government to African Court on Human and Peoples rights in Banjul Gambia. (Biafra VS Nigeria)

Now this is interesting and worthy of debate. How do we note this in the LEAD of the article?

Simon is reported to be the leader of "Biafra Liberation Army" in a report I found here. That is also interesting to note in the Lead.

Per comment of on Talk:Simon_Ekpa#Calling Ekpa Prime Minister in wiki-voice where he pointed out AU recognition and now this is coming so soon. I will reform the Lead but I seek opinions from interested editors first. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 18:11, 26 May 2024 (UTC)


 * The term "prime minister" does not appear in the article you linked. Please provide a reliable third-party (non-primary) source your claim. JFHJr (㊟) 18:24, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Your source says "Biafra Republic Government In Exile, BRGIE, has petitioned the African Commission on Human and Peoples’ Rights, an organ of the African Union in Banjul, Gambia". Nothing about a letter from AU. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:27, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It also says The Commission acknowledged the petition in a letter dated May 23, 2024, addressed to BRGIE by the African Commission on Human and Peoples’ Rights (the ACHPR) in Banjul, Gambia. But it does not state how the letter addressed or referred to the org's leader or in what context. Perhaps Fugabus received the letter, but we did not. In any event, this claim fails WP:V facially and WP:NOR extrinsically. JFHJr (㊟) 18:34, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * So that is from an organ of the African Union in Banjul, Gambia, not the AU itself. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:39, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The AU Court is indeed in Banjul. What comes from the AU Court comes from the AU. But no reliable source characterized this as an acknowledgement of a government or a prime minister. It's just a court filing response. "We got your filing. Regards, Primary Source." JFHJr (㊟) 18:46, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, I must agree with you. The AU needs to clarify things here. This is what "acknowledgement" is. Does it translate to recognition? «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 18:40, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Surely you mean acknowledging a petition? Not acknowledging an unregistered organization in Finland as a government, right? If you refer to the second thing, you've misread the text of the link you provided. The petition alone was acknowledged. Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 18:43, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Can we have at least have that in body? AU Court recognized or otherwise acknowledged them but not AU itself. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 18:46, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The AU Court acknowledged the filing. That's all. What you're claiming is simply untrue. JFHJr (㊟) 18:47, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * And again, @JFHJr, the BRGIE is not only registered in Finland. Its worldwide. Search them in the United States of America. They only have liason office in Finland. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 18:53, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The org sent a letter. It happens, doesn't make it worth mentioning in the article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:39, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I migrated the overly-grand stand-alone section into the article prose. But if anyone removes it per WP:WEIGHT, I would not oppose it because it's a letter from a primary source in routine response to a court filing. Cheers! JFHJr (㊟) 21:44, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It's not a subsection either. You've got a WP:POV problem and you're not dropping the stick. JFHJr (㊟) 21:51, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I think that isn't an issue. It doesn't suppose to be a section or subsection either per Weight. I moved it to a separate paragraph and I hope that helps. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 22:17, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * You have a tendency to put Ekpa's/BRGIE's words in wiki-voice, don't do that. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:30, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Out of curiosity, is there any useful info on this referendum BRGIE talks about? Beyond their own statements, I mean. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:29, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * This may be helpful. (southern Examiner) It was during the first phase though of the referendum. I personally haven't found any other in depth coverage yet.
 * Cheers. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 14:56, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * That's pretty much all "they say..." but something for the curious at least. So it's important people sit at home for three days to send in their photos. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:36, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Some new coverage
I just found this which was quite interesting, it's about the May sit-at-home. I also found this which fails for WP-purposes per "DN News Desk is the editorial wing of Digital Nod, an award-winning digital PR & marketing agency." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:49, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

This may or may not have some use, I'm unfamiliar with factcheckhub.com. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:01, 27 May 2024 (UTC)


 * You may also find this interesting here I guess all these coverage are coming late. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 14:48, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * This may be helpful. (southern Examiner) It was during the first phase though of the referendum. I personally haven't found any other in depth coverage yet.
 * Cheers. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 14:51, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The huffmag.com appears to be a WP:BLOG-ish puff-piece, site says "© 2024 Huffmag. Advertising Agency." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:39, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Some of this YouTube stuff may be potentially useful. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:41, 28 May 2024 (UTC)


 * It's useful as an external link. I hope this doesn't tempt anyone to use any YouTube as a BLP reference. Otherwise, good find! JFHJr (㊟) 21:12, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * There's nothing wrong with using YouTube per se, it's like the rest of the internet that way, WP:RSPYT etc. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 22:20, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

The recent sit-at-home
We're going a bit WP:RECENTISM atm, but this happens. Hopefully things will improve with time, as sources get some perspective. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:52, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

New WP:EDITWAR
Myself and War Term has started an edit war on this bit in the WP:LEAD:. Comments, editors? My view is that "founded in" is more informative than "since". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:57, 16 June 2024 (UTC)


 * It predates 2023 according to sources. It suggest it existed prior to 2023. The first reportage was 2022.
 * Sahara Reporters carried it. 2022 and again 2022 (Chat With Term)talk  19:20, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Very good. So he announced it in 2022, and said "Biafra Republic Government In-Exile is registered, approved and legal. Agent of Nigeria, take note!" + announced himself PM of it the next year. I self-reverted. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:05, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * That's fine. What about this?
 * Feel free to revert (Chat With Term)talk 20:10, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The infobox is for simple, undisputed info. Per discussions on this talkpage, calling Ekpa PM is not that, so we leave it out of the infobox. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:12, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes. That's right. It's too early. Till we have his successor in the future. (Chat With Term)talk 20:14, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Bola Tinubu or the UN calling him PM of Biafra will probably be quite satisfactory. As of now, sources are kinda mixed. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:17, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Agreed. (Chat With Term)talk 20:25, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I looked at those sources again, since I intended to use them. I see now that they say BGIE, not BRGIE, so "It suggest it existed prior to 2023" doesn't really work for WP-purposes. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:28, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Typo? Wår (talk) 17:33, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * My guess: he was still shaping things in his mind. But possibly, the BGIE is still out there somewhere (splitters!) Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:50, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Maybe, the linked text directs to another unrelated stuff. Mistake or intentional? Wår (talk) 19:05, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Intentional. It was an attempt at humor based on separatist orgs fighting between themselves. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:13, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I think he broke away from them. See the BGIE website. They are now defunct anyways. Wår (talk) 19:17, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * They also had their PM according to the information obtained there. Was it Ekpa? Wår (talk) 19:19, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't know, that page says © 2018. Perhaps that's why he added the R, it was pointed out to him that BGIE was taken. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:28, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * IMO, he entered into alliance with them in 2022 and in 2023, he broke out to BRGIE. The BGIE is not covered in sources. I find it difficult to see. Wår (talk) 19:32, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * There is (or was) also a Biafra Shadow Government (BSG). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:47, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * These are not notable except the BRGIE. I should have seen BSG on sources but I still struggles. I don't know they existed anyways. Nevertheless, they may also be related to the BRGIE just like the BGIE. Too many factions. Wår (talk) 19:53, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * They exist/existed: Some media seems to be confused on BGIE/BRGIE too:. Maybe it's on purpose (Ekpa's). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:59, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * My God! Now this is more complicated than ever. From my own view, he started with the name, BGIE but at the long run in 2023,it was transformed into the BRGIE. The BSG isn't connected but BGIE? Well, I think they are related. There were no reports he later broke out of the BGIE, so we assume that the BGIE and BRGIE are same and Ekpa joined them in 2022 and became it's leader in 2023. Wår (talk) 20:08, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Per sources, the best I can make out is that Ekpa made part of IPOB into Autopilot, then named that BGIE, possible then noticed there already was one, then made that BRGIE. But that's a guess, nothing that will go into the article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:17, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Biafra Government in Exile mention from 2016: Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:23, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * That's it. My assertions may be right. The BGIE existed since 2016. It got defunct in 2018 according to their website (assumptions). Ekpa tried to revived them in 2022 by entering into the reported alliance. Probably, he failed and in 2023, he transformed them to BRGIE and ended the IPOB stuff he was into. Wår (talk) 20:29, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * A reliable source stating such a continuity is required to apply to this article. It is original research and synthesis unless continuity is reliably and actually stated. It's quite conceivable one group was inactive when another took the same name. I'll note no mention of Ekpa himself in these pre-2023 digs. And if someone else founded the Ekpa org, it doesn't belong as WP:WEIGHTily in detail in this BLP. JFHJr (㊟) 02:25, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Perhaps Yle will do it for us at some point. Or BBC, easier to read. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:07, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

BLA emblem
Is there any usable source that can confirm this is the BLA emblem? I think the actual Biafra military used that or something like that, and of course it's possible Ekpa thought it looked nice. If no decent source has noticed this is the BLA emblem, there is no reason WP should. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:43, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Yep, seems like a Military ranks of Biafra rip-off/whatever. So, decent source needed. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:07, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Ekpa leads Armed revolt
"Ekpa is known for leading an armed revolt against the Nigerian state" was added on the lede article.

Per sources, from Yle, Helsinki times and Premium times.

IMO, I thought that is worth mentioning on the Lead per body of Simon_Ekpa#Activism and separatism. I mean it's Notability can't be ignored per Biographies of living persons

. Objections? Wår (talk) 06:21, 26 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Yes: your sources:
 * "The Biafra agitator, who is based in Finland, has been accused of fuelling insecurity in south-east Nigeria."
 * "Ekpa's exact role in the separatist group was unclear, but he has called on millions of people in southeastern Nigeria to participate in anti-government protests during the past 18 months." "Armed revolt" is there, but it's WP:HEADLINES and per text "Nigeria says", the paper makes that clear. Not fit for Wiki-voice and WP:SUSPECT needs to be considered.
 * You are greatly exaggerating your sources, I tweaked, may still not be ok per WP:LEAD. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:06, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, you should look into how to use WP:NAMEDREF. Once in place, they are easy to re-use with both source editor and visual editor, and it reduces clutter in the References section. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:12, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The headline of the Premium Times says "Nigerian military chief accuses Finnish govt, EU of shielding Simon Ekpa" and not that he accuses him of leading an armed revolt. Ekpa is not being accused per your tweak. Ekpa agrees he is leading the armed revolt per Kuvalehti report when he said "After the creation of the defensive forces, government forces no longer encroach on our area, because we have manpower all over, that protect"
 * He has in different sources said that. Though, the fact that he's being accused by Nigeria remains. See Daily post Wår (talk) 09:12, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Per WP:SUSPECT, I consider the removal of the entire sentence if that's the case.
 * I found an article that says "The Nigerian government accuses Simon Ekpa of using social media to instigate violence in the South-east." here. Wår (talk) 09:31, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
 * What Ekpa says is what Ekpa says, nothing more for WP-purposes. WP:HEADLINES are not good sources. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:26, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Per WP:SUSPECT. I have removed the entire sentence. Let's wait till he's convicted Wår (talk) 19:28, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
 * That's fine, but WP:SUSPECT doesn't forbid mentioning accusations, just that the sources needs to be good and correctly used, and that it's about a "public figure" (like Ekpa). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:35, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

On mentioning the Abia-killings
@JFHJr I get the impression that from the Nigerian POV, there's no real difference between Ekpa and (the rest of) IPOB. Still, clearer sources would be better. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:21, 28 June 2024 (UTC)


 * They broke away but it seems the Nigerian media continues to confuse them with the BRGIE. Same with BLA and ESN. This is from my own observations. Wår (talk) 01:28, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

The US Justice Department thing
@JFHJr I've looked at but I don't understand. Did Ekpa ask to be registered in [something] as "an entity for Biafra independence"? And [something] said "fine, you are now registered as that."? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:29, 2 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Lobbyists in the United States are required by the Foreign Agents Registration Act to disclose a client who is a foreign country, organization, or person. That PDF e-filing indicates (1) that a lobbying firm submitted an amendment to its registration to say that it is an agent of "Biafra Republic Government In-Exile", located in Nigeria, and (2) that the filing was received by the United States Department of Justice National Security Division. Here are the exhibits mentioned there: . SilverLocust 💬 18:26, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Saying "this also affirms that BRGIE is now an officially registered entity with the United States Department of Justice" is quite the spin. If I listed Abkhazia, Western Sahara, or Somaliland as my employer on my tax return, would that entitle me to announce that "[insert unrecognized country here] is now an officially registered entity with the United States Internal Revenue Service"? Extraordinary Writ (talk) 21:26, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * First comes the generic INC or LLC filing. Second comes the foreign agent registration. No taxes required (different administrative Dept). But you did forget the most important part, "Government in Exile" at the end. To make it CLEARLY real. I suggest "People's Republic of Lahti Government in Exile" in case you decide to experiment IRL. Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 23:52, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That's interesting since Biafra Republic Government In-Exile seems to insist it's located in the US. Thank you both for your comments (and please keep watching!). My understanding of SilverLocust's doc is that Ekpa/BRGIE now are clients of moranstrategies.com. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:44, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The Justice Department does not recognize governments or organizations on a diplomatic level. That's for the Department of State of the executive (administrative Department level) branch. Claims of recognition through compulsory registration as a foreign agent are outlandish. We are not like Russia, but foreign agent status carries heightened stigma, scrutiny, and reporting obligations for funding, lobbying and other activities. It is not a positive or affirmative "recognition" by our government per se. We require foreign agents to register, and we might fine, liquidate, and/or jail them if they fail to do so. We've done that recently, though the worst seem to get presidential pardons. JFHJr (㊟) 23:45, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * And clients of Moran, yes most definitely. JFHJr (㊟) 00:34, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Gråbergs Gråa Sång and @JFHJr
 * I found this to comfirm the moranstrategies.com stuff from a recent source. Things are really unfolding in the media and reality there in the US but I think we're being taken unawares here. Let's continue digging more deeper into research.
 * I see our new contributors @SilverLocust and @Extraordinary Writ. Cheers and please add this to your watch list and stay around for some time. This scope may burst in the future as the BRGIE says they intend to issue a declaration for the restoration of independence of Biafra in December 2024 per Suomen.
 * Welcome. I am most focused in ongoing protests in Kenya. Wår (talk) 03:47, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The Africa Report source looks interesting but I can't read it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:09, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Why can't you read it? You mean you can't access the link or it's a long read for you? Let @JFHJr try then. Wår (talk) 06:19, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * From where I'm sitting, WP:PAYWALL. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:25, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The unreliable sources were:
 * THE AUTHORITY NEWS (authorityngr.com ),
 * Daily Post Nigeria (dailypost.ng), and
 * Vanguard News (vanguardngr.com)
 * The same weird POV falsehood was repeated blatantly the same way, not in any seriously artful, professional, or even deceptive way. They're just repeating claims by Ekpa or his supporters. That should inform our decisions about inclusion of future claims from these sources. It should also provoke reviews of all their other uses in citations here. JFHJr (㊟) 00:25, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It's a bit of a mix. My basic approach is that Daily Post (Nigeria) and Vanguard (Nigeria) are standard newspapers of their region. There is a lot of "Ekpa says" reporting (I'm guessing Ekpa gets clicks in Nigeria, for various reasons), like in this case, but as long as editors don't make that WP-voice, it's not necessarily problematic, though WP:PROPORTION, WP:ABOUTSELF and WP:RECENTISM needs to be considered. That something is in the media today doesn't mean it has to be in this article today. They also do stuff like, which looks like decent journalism to me. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:24, 3 July 2024 (UTC)