Talk:Simone Manuel

Undone revision
, I'm just curious why you've undone this edit. It preserves the sectioning off you created, which created the edit conflict I mentioned, and I believed my undone revision is a better sourced and copy-edited version of what's currently there. The current version isn't written in a formal enough language, i.e. " In a great come-from-behind effort, she and Canadian swimmer Penny Oleksiak pulled a great upset" ~Cheers, Ten  Ton  Parasol  04:30, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

, I didn't realize I undid your edit, I just submitted my edit the same time as yours and Wikipedia said there was a conflict but I clicked 'continue' and my edit got published so I didn't think there was anything wrong.
 * , ah! Hrmph. Why doesn't the system use another word. :< No harm, no foul though. At any rate, looking back over that, I'm coming off aggressive, eek. I apologize for that. ~Cheers, Ten  Ton  Parasol

Simone Manuel, the first black woman to win a gold medal?
Is Simone Manuel really the first black woman to win a gold medal in an individual swimming event? Didn't Ranomi Kromowidjojo win a gold medal four years earlier? The article claims: Manuel is the first African-American woman to win a gold medal in an individual swimming event, and also the first black woman to achieve this. While the first part of the sentence is true as far as I know, the second part is not. Perhaps we should leave out the last part of the sentence? Max Eisenhardt (talk) 21:37, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The article makes the statement sourced to two secondary sources. And, I don't really want to get into identity politics about if Kromwidjojo is black or not, but her article says that she's of Javanese Surinamese descent, which in my understanding is Asian. ~Cheers, Ten  Ton  Parasol  21:50, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
 * @ Ten, Surinamese descent is Asian? I'm sorry, but Suriname is situated in South-America. The fact that you call this a matter of identity politics is arguably the problematic part, because that's of course a subjective matter. If you see for instance the Wikipedia-article on black people, the first sentence says: Black people is a term used in certain countries, often in socially based systems of racial classification or of ethnicity, to describe persons who are perceived to be dark-skinned compared to other given populations. It seems to me that Ranomi Kromowidjojo, whose father is clearly black, can be considered as being black. Also, the sources you're mentioning are not exactly scientific (which is of course considering the subject hard to find), but nonetheless, I think it would be a bit ridiculous to use two unreliable magazines to make a statement like this. Max Eisenhardt (talk) 21:58, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The sources are BBC and BET, a prominent black network. And, like, I know where Suriname is. But if you look at the article for Javanese Surinamese it says that Javanese Surinamese people are people of Javanese descent who live in Suriname. Java is... in Asia. And, frankly, looking at images of Kromowidjojo's father, he appears to be Asian. At this point, the onus is on you to provide a source saying that Kromowidjojo is considered to be a black woman or a woman who considers herself black. ~Cheers, Ten  Ton  Parasol  22:08, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
 * @ Ten, she's from Javanese descent, that's something else than coming from Java, let alone being Asian. A lot of (black) people in Suriname are from Indonesian descent, that doesn't mean they're Asian. Like I said, being black is a subjective matter, asking a source that Kromowidjojo has to consider herself to be black in order to be called black is therefore quite ridiculous. Where is the source that Simone Manuel considers herself to be black? Max Eisenhardt (talk) 22:16, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Everything in the articles need to be based on a source, so if you're going to refute sources cited in the article you need to provide a source yourself. And, like, being "not white" does not "black" make? As for your asking for a source on if Manuel considers herself black: “Coming into the race I tried to take weight of the black community off my shoulders. It’s something I carry with me. I want to be an inspiration, but I would like there to be a day when it is not ‘Simone the black swimmer.’ The title of black swimmer suggests that I am not supposed to win golds or break records, but that’s not true because I train hard and want to win just like everyone else.” This isn't even counting the plethora of reliable sources that identify Manuel as a black woman:        I stand by it firmly, if you are disputing the cited content, you have to turn up a source identifying Kromowidjojo as a black woman. ~Cheers,  Ten  Ton  Parasol  22:34, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I've posted neutral notices of this discussion at Talk:Ranomi Kromowidjojo, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Swimming, [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Olympics, and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United States ~Cheers, Ten  Ton  Parasol  22:49, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Also, seriously, stop removing it. Firstly, it's removing unsourced content. Secondly, it's bad form to remove content that's currently under discussion. At this rate, it's going to be edit warring. ~Cheers, Ten  Ton  Parasol  22:51, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
 * @ Ten, it is also said that the earth is flat. I'm sorry, but this is really ridiculous. Everyone can see that Ranomi Kromowidjojo is a black woman. Wikipedia says: [black people are] persons who are perceived to be dark-skinned compared to other given populations, isn't Kromowidjojo dark-skinned in comparison to the rest of the (generally white) population of The Netherlands? That the naval-gazing American & English media are not aware of Kromowidjojo, that's of course the reason why BBC and other media are writing this nonsense about Manuel. Max Eisenhardt (talk) 22:59, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
 * "Everyone can see that Ranomi Kromowidjojo is a black woman" isn't a true statement. I see a woman of Southeast Asian descent. And, I maintain, that being darker-skinned in comparison to white people doesn't necessarily make one black. Priyanka Chopra, Nandita Das, Laura Gemser, and Mindy Kaling aren't considered black women because they're darker. Frankly, like, we can go back and forth on our interpretations of racial backgrounds all month, but, frankly, there isn't much to be done without a source, especially since there are biographies of living persons, WP:BLP. I refuse to acquiesce to your position without a source, and I firmly maintain you cannot removed sourced content. And until something about this situation changes, it's here. Sidebar, I also placed two more notices at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women's sport and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Netherlands. ~Cheers, Ten  Ton  Parasol  23:15, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
 * So people from Asia can't be black? This is getting weirder and weirder. But again, Kromowidjojo is NOT Asian, she's Surinamese and yes, of Javanese descent. But does that make her less black? Like I said before, the definition of a black person is: persons who are perceived to be dark-skinned compared to other given populations, with that definition you can't possibly say that Kromowidjojo isn't black. And last but not least, stop moaning about sources when we're talking about matters that have nothing to do with science. When discussing issues like this, a source is not always necessary, certainly not when we're talking about navel-gazing media like the BBC. Also, the examples you gave are really ridiculous, those women are definitely not black, not with regard to skin complexity, not with regard to ancestors of African descent. Max Eisenhardt (talk) 23:25, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
 * We genuinely need a source for everything, yes, even issues like this. See: WP:VERIFY, WP:BLP, WP:OR, WP:TRUTH. ~Cheers, Ten  Ton  Parasol  23:28, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

We have four sources that say she was the "first black female swimmer to win an Olympic gold medal" or similar and none that say anything about her being African-American. So isn't that what the article should say? I don't see how Kromowidjojo enters in to this at all. EDIT: Sorry, I see now there are two sources calling her African-American. I'm still not seeing anything about Kromowidjojo. Is there a source for that? Kendall-K1 (talk) 23:30, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
 * You won't find any sources because issues like these are not as relevant in The Netherlands as they are in the United States. Not that The Netherlands isn't racist, but like the BBC article says: 'African-Americans have been shut out of swimming pools for generations'. This is probably why so many English/American media are pointing at Manuel (who's really the first AFRICAN-AMERICAN to achieve this) as being the first black woman to achieve this. It's an Anglo/American-centric portrayal of things. Those media simply don't care about foreign athletes. And it's, like I said, clearly wrong, since everybody can see that Kromowidjojo - who's from Suriname - qualifies as a black woman. And do I need a source for that? Asking that in a matter like this is in my view exaggerated; we'e not talking about science here, we're talking about sport & society. Always demanding sources for issues in categories like these is simply not in the benefit of the content of this article. By the way, if Kromowidjojo isn't called black, then why is Enith Brigitha (who de facto won the gold medial in swimming at the Olympics of 1976) considered black? http://www.swimvortex.com/enith-brigitha-first-black-woman-to-win-olympic-gold-in-a-world-without-the-gdr/ Max Eisenhardt (talk) 11:43, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
 * "Wikipedia does not publish original research. Its content is determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of its editors." See WP:V. If we have four reliable source (see WP:RS) saying she was the "first black female swimmer to win an Olympic gold medal", and none that say otherwise, then that's what we say in the article. If you want to appeal this, see Dispute resolution. Kendall-K1 (talk) 12:25, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
 * As Kendell-K stated, your statements are derived from your original research or to be exact personal beliefs. I note that even Apartheid law or the US miscegenation laws would not have classified Kromowidjojo as Black (the first if the Wikipedia article is correct would list her as Coloured for her Indonesian ancestry and the second as Malay for the same reason).  Enith Brigitha likely had some ancestors from sub-Saharan Africa, given the majority of Curaçao's people are descended from African slaves, which is why many people consider her Black.  Note that Black is very much a cultural classification so in some times and places Kromowidjojo might have been Black, but, the prevailing cultural classification as shown by the lack of sources saying otherwise is that she is not. --Erp (talk) 13:51, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Like I pointed out: the sources are evidently flawed since they're only considering American/English athletes. Since when is Wikipedia a project that is copying information from news sites in a zombie modus. Original research refers primarily to original scientific research, which is of course never a good idea. Is it research at all to note that Kromowidjojo is Surinamese and is clearly black? Secondly, to bring up Apartheid laws to decide whether someone is black or not seems to me a little dubious. And last but not least: Kromowidjojo is not Indonesian! She's half Surinamese and from people who are descended (!) from Indonesian people. That doesn't take away the fact that being colored and from Suriname clearly makes her black in the sense of her cultural classification. People keep thinking that she's Indonesian or Asian, this is simply not true. Is there someone who calls Tiger Woods an Asian? Max Eisenhardt (talk) 15:15, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Original research refers to all content across Wikipedia. Wikipedia has always only made statements on the basis of what sources say, most especially in the case of biographies of living persons. Indonesian as brought up in this discussion isn't talking about a nationality, it's talking about Indonesian as an ethnic background. Non-English sources are acceptable, but you would have to actually find one that identifies Kromowidjojo as a black woman. And as for Tiger Woods being considered a man of Asian descent: "Tiger refers to his ethnic make-up as "Cablinasian" (a syllabic abbreviation he coined from Caucasian, Black, American Indian, and Asian)." "[His mother] originally from Thailand [...], is of mixed Thai, Chinese, and Dutch ancestry." "In 2015, Woods ranked ninth in Forbes' list of world's highest-paid athletes, being the top among Asian Americans or the fourth among African Americans." ~Cheers, Ten  Ton  Parasol  15:28, 25 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Agreed that sources are needed to refute cited information.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:05, 28 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Yeah sources are actually needed. Being of Surinamese background and being ethnically 'black' are not necessarily the same thing.Cacrats (talk) 18:50, 28 July 2017 (UTC)