Talk:Singapore Scout Association/Archive 1

Merge
This article fails Wikipedia standards in several respects. It is too much a vanity piece and is not from a neutral point of view (NPOV). I am doing a major edit on it and will move some parts of the article to here.

"The group is led by adult leaders, their assistants, and others." - all Scout Groups are.

"Sec 1 - Juniors  (troop)

Sec 2 - Instars  (troop)

Sec 3 - Seniors  (troop)

Sec 4 - Venture 1 (training team)

J1   - Venture 2 (ventures)"

This is completely unclear to me. Put it back if you can show it is a notable point and can make it clear.

"The current six patrols names are: Dolphin, Lion, Orca, Panther, Shark, Tiger.". WP is not just a collection of information.

The Troop Song is also non-encyclopedic. --Bduke 01:25, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Copyright
It has been noted that some texts in this page were directly lifted from copyrighted material, including from contents in the official SSA site. Someone look into this and do the neccesary? Thanks!--Huaiwei 17:00, 12 April 2005 (UTC)

Merge of Group articles
There are proposals to merge two Group articles here. There is also one other Singapore Group article. Those three articles are, I believe more than 50% of all articles on Scouts Groups world-wide. The generally accepted view is that articles on individual Groups are not notable. To be notable, they have to be the oldest or the largest, and even these may be disputed. See discussions on WikiProject Scouting and its related articles. The best way forward is to make new articles on the two Areas or possibly the 13 Districts in Singapore and add part of the articles on the Groups to those. The alternative is that these Groups articles will be put up for deletion at some point. In the UK the idea is to have articles on Counties (England) or Areas (Scotland and Wales). Group articles are generally moved into those articles and made redirects there. Much the same happens in Australia and the USA. What do Singapore's Scouts think about this? --Bduke 11:34, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Merge all of them into this article.Rlevse 11:15, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Merge all as per nomination, otherwise, delete as non-notable. Chris 16:54, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

All five Group articles have been merged here. --Bduke 01:40, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Cub Scout
Please be noted that primary school scouts had been officially been named from Cadet Scouts to Cub Scouts.
 * Then the article Cadet Scout needs to be moved to Cub Scout (Singapore). I have changed the link from Cub Scout in the article so it actually links to Cadet Scout, but more tidying up needs to be done and I am busy on a long wikibreak. --Bduke 12:24, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Scout Units
I was thinking whether we should impose a rule which restricts any details or brief mentions of an individual unit's history and achievements in the page. Currently, almost all of the "bigger and better" scout units had been doing so. I personally are against it. It will be very chaotic if the rest of the other units follow suit. -- Skyfoo 07:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Arabic script tagging
This needs the Malay transliteration. Chris 06:20, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Merge of Pajigwad Scout Troop

 * Support. No notability of Troop. It needs to be be cut right back and merged here. Otherwise it will and should be deleted. --Bduke 09:57, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete The scout troop article is on a nonnotable unit that should be deleted. Only a few pieces of info are worth merging here. Sumoeagle179 04:26, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Support. It is the first Scout troop established in the Eastern part of Singapore. It has a rich and notable individual history (e.g. each member has a scout name bestowed upon him on reaching the Advanced Scout Standard) which would be lost if merged with the main entry for the Singapore Scout Association.The current President of Singapore was a member of this troop.   -- Once a Scout, Always a Scout --  76.187.251.59 19:11, 14 January 2007 (UTC) Bedajim 1976, Pajigwad Scout Unit Member 1974 - 1979
 * Comment. I think you meant "Not support merge". Being the first in the eastern part of Singapore does not cut it. Being the first or largest in Singapore might. There are very few articles on individual Troops or Groups in the world on Wikipedia. All that were created have been deleted or merged as non-notable. If it goes to Articles for Deletion, as it surely will at some time, it will get deleted. You might as well merge the essentials now as we did for several other troop articles last year. --Bduke 21:48, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment. Giving a Scout name to people who have merely passed the Advanced Scout Standard (usually at the age of 14 & possibly having only 2 years of Scouting experience) is not even a decent example of rich history. Perhaps there can be a collated group page. Kenshino (talk) 06:51, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Note that this discussion closed nearly 3 years ago and the article was deleted. Since then all information on individual Scout Groups has been deleted on this article and on many others from around the world, unless they are very notable such as oldest. The idea of a collated group page is not a good one. Groups are not generally notable. -- Bduke    (Discussion)  07:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Merge of 01 Raffles Scout Group

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

Discussion closed as this article has been proposed for deletion at AfD. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  23:34, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

It is proposed that this Group article be merged into this article, The Singapore Scout Association. First some history: this new article on the 01 Raffles Scout Group has been created over a redirect to The Singapore Scout Association. This redirect was the result of the discussion above at. An article on the 01 Raffles Scout Group was one of the Group articles discussed there in 2006. This new article is not identical to the earlier article. Indeed if it had been, I would simply have reverted the new edits back to the redirect as there was no opposition to the merge in 2006. The new article is indeed better than the old one, but it still does not meet wikipedia guidelines for a stand-alone article. There are very few articles on Scout Groups for the simple reason that Scout Groups are not notable. To be notable they have to have received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject. To do this, they have to be either very old or very large and even then there may be no reliable sources. This article makes no real claim to notability. "established itself as one of the most outstanding scouting groups in Singapore" is clearly not enough. The references are not to independent sources, but to the web pages of the group or school itself. The School is notable and has an artilce at Raffles Institution (Secondary). That article makes mention of the Scout Group here and that is really all that is needed. So this article should be reverted to the redirect made in 2006. Please give your views below. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  01:49, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

EDIT: I've cited references from a Singaporean Governmental website, concerning the 'A Very Special Walk' events which are indeed notable. Also, cited a print source (newspaper article from the Straits Times) Nihil est (talk) 03:57, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Support merge as above. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  01:49, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Support. Much of the article is superfluous; there are a number of statements that are hagiographic and unsourced. ---—  Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 02:46, 10 January 2010 (UTC) User:Nihil_est
 * Not Support Merge Hello all, I've added a link to a secondary source, the Pathlight School Singapore, which did indeed give significant coverage to an event organized by the group. I'm still in the process of finding newspaper articles to further support this claim. I think that the amount of media coverage that the group has received over the years justifies the notability issue, and will be working more on the article to reflect this.
 * Support, I would even consider AFD and salting the redirect. Unless these guys are the first camping trip to the moon, they're no more notable than many other troops. --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 05:48, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Support. No notability beyond the school. --jergen (talk) 13:13, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Support. Agreed. There is no real notable reason to have a unique page for the Scout Group. Helping the new Pathlight Scout Group is one of the many many projects that many Scout groups do. Kenshino (talk) 23:58, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Which is more correct?
Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 16:13, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * File:Singapore SSA.svg With scroll
 * File:Emblem of Singapore Scouting Association (without Scroll).svg Without scroll


 * The one with scroll is the current updated logo. That would be the correct official one. --Kenshino (talk) 04:09, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Addition of information
I was thinking of adding more information to this article. For those who have some knowledge of the areas below please help to add in.

1. Camps (eg. Singapore Jamboree, Camp Leaping Wolf)

2. Competitions (eg. Pioneering Competition, NPC)

3. Events (eg. JOTI/JOTA, POW WOW)

4. Uniform

5. Scout Shop

6. Saribum Campsite

7. Badges

8. Awards

9. Differences between land and sea Scouting

10. History of Air Scouting

11. Cub/Scout/Venture/Rover/Leader

-- Skyfoo 07:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Does anyone still think the information above is still needed in the article? -- Kenshino (talk) 13:02, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Some of it, yes. There seems to be shortage of editors in Singapore interested in the broad aspects of the association. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  21:06, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I can write on any of the following topics. Do tell me what you think is needed in the wiki page and I'll write it. --Kenshino (talk) 04:08, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

OK, a quick look at the article as it now stands. First, before looking at that list, the section headed Singapore Scout Association is a mess as the notice there indicates. The header is inappropriate as that is the name of the article. It reads like a copyright violation as a direct copy from some Scouting document in Singapore. Please check that and rewrite the whole, as a series of sections. The details of each Law should go and they probably are a copy of some document. Now the list:
 * 1) Camps (eg. Singapore Jamboree, Camp Leaping Wolf) - brief mention of each.
 * 2) Competitions (eg. Pioneering Competition, NPC) - brief mention of each.
 * 3) Events (eg. JOTI/JOTA, POW WOW) - is anything special about these?
 * 4) Uniform - nothing really required.
 * 5) Scout Shop - nothing.
 * 6) Saribum Campsite - what is this? Is it the main camp? Is it a Leader Training Centre. If so, then mention briefly.
 * 7) Badges - no.
 * 8) Awards - mention most important, but they are listed in the international article on highest awards in Scouting.
 * 9) Differences between land and sea Scouting - not really as that is common to all countries.
 * 10) History of Air Scouting - one sentence in history section would be good as would the same for Sea Scouts.
 * 11) Cub/Scout/Venture/Rover/Leader - not sure what he intended there.

Good luck. Feel free to ask me more. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  04:37, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

The Singapore Scout Logo
This section below is moved from the main article because it is not sourced and it may be a copyright violation. Give a source for it before moving it back, but do not move it back if it is a direct copy of the source.

"The Singapore Scout Logo consists of a fleur-de-lys (trefoil) with the Crescent and Five Stars of the State Emblem superimposed over it. The Fleur-de-lys, since early times, has been used to decorate the North point of the compass on maps. It is characteristic of the fact, therefore, that a Scout shows the way for others to follow. The trefoil is emblematic of the three parts of the Scout Promise. The middle portion points upwards and above the other two, signifying the lofty ideals of the Scout and the Movement. Through the middle of this mid-point is a line pointing upwards. This represents the Scout’s belief in God. The two side-portions of the fleur-de-lys are equal and balanced, representing the fact that humanity is the same and everywhere equal. These two portions also stand for the balanced views of the Scout and his sense of equality and justice with regard to all things and people. The two stars on either side represent the eyes of the Scout and through them he sees the stars’ ten points, representing the original ten Scout Laws which have been embodied into five. The three parts of the Promise are bound together by the circle containing the Crescent and the Five Stars which represent the State and the Nation. The circle is the bond of brotherhood and it “ties” up to the Scout’s allegiance to his country and his desire to be a useful citizen. Below the circle of Crescent and Stars is a line which represents the Scout. This individuality, however, it not so aloof or alone as not to connect the Scout to God and the State (the circle)."

--Bduke 10:56, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

After looking at this again in detail, I do not think the logo needs anything more than a brief sentence such as:-

"The Singapore Scout Logo combines the fleur-de-lys international Scout emblem with the State of Singapore Crescent and Five Stars." (needs reference here to Singapore Scout Association book that the above came from)

Anything else is really just the Scout point of view and we should be using a neutral point of view. It would be nice to have an international wikipedia article on the fleur-de-lys Scout badge and we could then link to it here. I'll find out whether anybody has done this or plans to. --Bduke 21:34, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

External links modified
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