Talk:Singer-songwriter

Old discussion
Hmm. Not sure I like this definition or the list.

It seems to me that the singer-songwriter, as a musical institution, can probably be traced back about as far as Bob Dylan and Tom Paxton (who should both be on the list, along with Eric Andersen) and maybe a little farther. To me, the defining nature of the singer-songwriter is the greater focus on lyrical content rather than instrumentation and vocal harmony. To put it more bluntly, most of the singer-songwriter recordings had poor production values and, well, terrible vocal work. Eric Andersen went so far as to rerecord his "'Bout Changes and Things" after he had more money and could hire better studio talent.

In contrast, the more polished artists, such as John Denver, Joan Baez, Judy Collins, some of whom are on the article's list, were known for the quality of the recordings themselves, many of which were written by others. While John Denver, for example, wrote a good deal of his own material, he also recorded songs by Bob Dylan, Tom Paxton, and Eric Andersen, none of whom recorded anything ever written by Denver. Similarly, Judy Collins made a hit out of Thirsty Boots, which was written by Eric Andersen, and Peter, Paul, & Mary made a hit out of Paxton's "Puff the Magic Dragon" and several other songs he wrote.UninvitedCompany
 * You're plain wrong on the last bit. "Puff the Magic Dragon" was written by Peter, Paul and Mary's own Peter Yarrow.  They did however record other songs by Paxton (e.g. "Going to the Zoo").  I agree with your point in general though. -MrFizyx 19:00, 5 June 2006 (UTC) he is evil

US-Centric
Currently almost 100% USA-Centric.Graham 07:17, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * It's not really too much of a problem, nor is it really anyones fault. It just so happens that nearly all of the people who contributed to this list are focused on American singer-songwriters. If you know of some foreign singer-songwriters, add their names.TheGhostChild 16:14, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Of course its a problem.But aniway it look's much better now--Andres rojas22 21:24, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Assertion
The article contained the bold assertion that:
 * The most successful independent singer-songwriter is Buffalo-based Ani DiFranco.

At the moment, this statement is meaningless. "Most succesful" how? Reputation, chart position, record sales, what? "Most succesful" ever? Or in which year? In the U.S. or worldwide? And so on. -- 80.168.224.145 16:54, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

ROHA's edits
I just thought i'd see what this guy has been editting, and he seems to like killing the lead sections of articles. ROHA prefers leads which are a single sentence, contrary to what Lead section appears to agree on - Leads are supposed to be a mini-entry on the article, not a dictionary definition. I am not going to replace the lead, because having 6 or 7 paragraphs isn't good either. I'm just going to leave it alone with this note :). SECProto 15:12, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Problematic Edit
Is this supposed to be what it is? I think we have a problem, unless this is the fancy new definition of singer-songwriter.

''I am a Customized Song Writer. I write songs to help people with their lives. If you need a song written for your love and tears, I will write your song.''

I've taken the liberty to return it to the most recently edited version by Tawkerbot. If anybody has a problem with it, tell me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.110.132.130 (talk • contribs)

Mariah Carey
Shouldn't Mariah Carey be mentioned as the songwriter with the most number ones in the US? I guess she has written 15 of the 17 songs that went number one... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.227.174.1 (talk • contribs)


 * Mariah Carey is a pop singer, which is quite different than singer/songwriter. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 16:56, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah. I seriously doubt that Mariah Carey did anything but sing and maybe change a line or two of the lyrics. She is not a singer-songwriter. She would have to (gasp) write songs for that to be her title.TheGhostChild 16:18, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


 * No, that is not true at all. Mariah is very much a singer-songwriter.  She has written all her material since 1990 and won a handful of awards for her songwriting.  Also, why is a pop singer quite different than a singer-songwriter?  A singer-songwriter is anyone who sings and writes their music, regardless of genre.  --Musicpvm 21:29, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, the term singer/songwriter (as I know it) refers to a genre of music that appears in coffee houses, church basements, etc. doing songs that are not pop in nature. Although people tend to keep including more and more artists to this article, some of whom I would not really consider singer-songwriter, I think it is important to distinguish between a singer-songwriter and a singer and/or writer of pop music.wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 02:26, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * If this aritcle is concentrating on only the "genre", it should be clarified in the intro, so people aren't confused as someone can interpret "Singer-songwriter" in two different ways. Currently, there are hundreds of artists that link to this page who are not "traditional" singer-songwriters.  --Musicpvm 01:58, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Generally Mariah's work which I like a lot - doesn't fall into the context of singer-songwriter. She didn't go through the dynamics that basically all the artists here went through.  It's like classifying

Elvis as a singer-songwriter which he shared credit for songs he didn't actually write. 21:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree, she should be mentioned, That comment is outrageous, that singer songwriters music is only music played in coffee shops and churches.--Petergriffin9901 (talk) 18:03, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Needs more internationalisation
Article completely ignores french speaking chansonniers (Brassens, Brel, Ferré, Leclerc, Vigneault, etc) for example, and those go back to the 1950's at least. Not being an expert, I can't really write it myself, I'm sure plenty of other countries have their own singer-songwriter traditions which should be mentioned here. --70.81.13.192 02:24, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * You can add what you mention above. You don't need to be an expert to add something.  There are always people that will come behind you and change/add to whatever you start.  If we waited for "experts" there would be tons of stubs. ;^) wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 21:35, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Same thing I've noticed about Italian speaking "cantautori", and in particular Lucio Battisti, the most famous in his country but not exactly a complete songwriter, because he writes only the music and sings the songs... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Luciogiovanni (talk • contribs) 18:57, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Clean up
This is what I see to be the weakest part of the page:

''The format of a singer-songwriter concert is frequently a solo artist performing their own works, possibly with a backup band, introducing each song with some explanation of its origin, meaning, etc. For the most part, these are fairly serious songs with personal meaning to the artist. In some cases, most notably Cheryl Wheeler, Christine Lavin, and Vance Gilbert, significant humor is incorporated into these songs and/or presentations. (Wheeler was offered a stand up comic gig at one point, and Christine Lavin once broke her nose while twirling a baton during a show.) Many fans personally relate to the songs, and are generally more likely to know all the lyrics than fans of pop or rock music. Frequently it is the lyrics, rather than the melody or beat of a song, or even the voice of the artist that attracts the fans.''

''One flourishing aspect of this genre is largely invisible: the indie singer-songwriter. The solo artist format, less expensive on tour and in the studio, fosters "indie" artists who enjoy limited fame and longer careers than most major-label artists. A number of recording labels such as Folkways, Rounder, etc. catered to smaller but devoted customer bases. Some major recording labels also introduced "indie"-flavored labels to capture some of this market.''

This is a difficult page to get right - the name of the genre is so all encompassing - but so far it fails.Damiancorrigan 21:48, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Chan Marshall
Can she get a mention? Does anyone mind if I add her to the late 90's singer songwriters???


 * Please sign your posts on talk pages per Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks! Hyacinth 21:11, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I just looked at the article on Chan Marshall (whom I'd previously not heard of). Most of the artists on the 1990s paragraph of the North America section would be well-described by the singer-songwriter genre that folks associate with the folk club and festival circuit.  It would appear that she doesn't fit in that sense.  Then again, I wouldn't have added Cara Jones or Conor Oberst either.  There still seems to be some question as to whether this article is about the folk genre handed down from Woody Guthrie, Bob Dylan, Tom Paxton, etc. OR if it is simply relating to any artist who both sings and writes songs. -MrFizyx 18:46, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I mentioned this is the next section. I believe the article should be stripped down considerably.  We already have a page List of singer-songwriters, which is where people can add the names of the favorite singer/songwriters.  I believe it should be limited to the kinds of performers you would see on the coffee-house / folk festival circuit. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 19:07, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, then we should be bold and strip it down, otherwise the article seems rather pointless. The list you mentioned is also in rather bad shape.  Any system that classifies Barry Manilow and David Rovics together is quite broken.   -MrFizyx 19:25, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Out of Control
The lists on this page are getting out of control. This page should not be a checklist of every singer-songwriter anybody knows. Maybe somebody can start a "List of Singer/Songwriters" page and move most of the entries to there? I just looked at the list of artists that supposedly self-produced recordings and find a number of artists that are on smaller labels such as Rounder. Ani DiFranco has her own label, but many of the others do not. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 13:38, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Rather than a list page, wouldn't it be better if folks just add names to Category:Singer-songwriters? -MrFizyx 18:27, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Cleaning-up
I've removed a bunch of names. I've made clear what I was doing in the edit history though, so feel to go back and dispute these if needed. Some I removed were red links, although the artists do fit the genre (e.g. Tom Prasada-Rao). I've also removed some artists who are obviously talented singers and songwriters (e.g. indie-pop sensation Sufjan Stevens) that don't fit the genre "singer-songwriter." There is, however, still a lot that needs to be reconciled within other parts of the article. -MrFizyx 20:00, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I have done a major rewrite of the introduction section. Hopefully, this will set the parameters for the page, and prevent the creep of adding questionable new artists.  Assuming everyone agrees with my definition of a singer-songwriter, I will start to go through the rest of the article to strip it down and clean it up a bit. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 13:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

A few thoughts:
 * 1) Should the section on "North America" really be "North America and the United Kingdom," or maybe "Western Culture," (though I don't much care for the later). Don't Richard Thompson, Dougie MacLean and Billy Bragg greatly influence and interact with the artists in this genre?  Isn't the European audience for this genre just as great as in The States?  There is already a section on the Beatles influence.
 * 2) How significant is the claim of influence on this genre by Peter Frampton, Don Henley and Glen Frey? (I think most songwriters would try like hell not to sound like the Eagles.)
 * 3) The 1980s section points out a number of genre female artist who crossed-over to find comercial success at that time. This is mostly true, but we need to make clear that the bulk of artist have remained outside of the main-stream in the genre's own niche.
 * 4) I certainly don't like saying that the term was revived in the 1990s by Alanis Morissette. The genre never really has gone away and I'm not sure what the place of a rocker like Morissette would be.
 * 5) How important is Pro Tools really? Would it be better to say production costs are down and leave it at that?

Comments? -MrFizyx 19:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I got rid of that German thing. It was contradictory and ridiculous.

Broader definition
Even though this article concentrates on the specific genre, it really should mention the broader definition of the term "singer-songwriter" in the intro. Many musicians who are not "traditional" singer-songwriters but do sing and write and/or compose their music are linked to this article. The term is very commonly used to refer to musicians of any genre (pop, rock, r&b, etc) who sing and write their own songs. Even one additional sentence will do. I tried clarifying this in the intro a few months ago, but my edits were removed. --musicpvm 03:45, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The term is very commonly used incorrectly, especially on Wikipedia. You are correct though, there are singer-songwriters of many styles (folk, country, pop, rock, blues, and yes, even r&b).  If we can offer a well-referenced and somewhat narrow definition, we can help educate editors who would apply the definition to pop stars who hire a whole army of co-writers.  I'm willing to broaden the scope a bit, but this does need to be done with some care.  I'll work on this. -MrFizyx 17:50, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Nevertheless, the current definition, so insistent on a folk music background and framework for S/S, is too narrow and much of the rest of the article is at odds with it. (For example, a good half of the key artists mentioned do indeed use drums in their seminal recordings).  Jgm 19:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * True, I don't agree with everything in the current revision, and the sources I'm finding vary widely on these things too. We may have pushed the folk POV a bit.  Also, I think we have too many "key artists,"  people keep adding (especially "emerging artists") and sometimes my efforts to trim cause feedback (one singer-songwriter even came to my talk page to complain.  I'd be happy for someone else to consider acting on this).  Keep adding suggestions, pointing out problem areas is helpful. -MrFizyx 19:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I also agree the definition of singer songwriter is too narrow. I have always thought singer songwriters were people who write songs and perform them, regardless of genre, and certainly of subject matter. How are the finer definition in the article actually substantiated? Dndn1011 15:40, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I would say that it might be applied to a broader range of performers who are known primarily for songwriting. The definition of the genre here is mostly accurate, but needs better in-line sourcing and some small corrections.  Maybe you could take a look through the external links.  The all music guide category "contemporary singer-songwriter" includes a fairly specific category of people all of whom got their start (and many continue) by playing small folk venues and folk festivals.  Modern artists have many influences and cross genres frequently, but this is an art form that has been supported primarily by grass-roots folk music communities for decades. -MrFizyx 13:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


 * There is a real problem with associating Singer-Songwriters with Folk Music. The problem stems from the fact that (as least in the UK) folk music is supposed to mean "tradidional" music - at least to certain groups.  Many a singer songwriter can relate to the problem of singing their songs at folk clubs, to find a frosty atmosphere.  Folk Music in itself has become somewhat meaningless as a term.  The rules at various clubs conflict even within themselves (I have observed situations where members of a club have talked at length about folk music being traditional, yet the club itself is mad keen on a contemporary american singer songwriter wuch as Tom Paxton.


 * Another thing to note is that Singer Songwriters from around the sixties onwards found themselves playing at Folk Clubs, because this was the only real outlet at the time. However, they probably never really thought of themselves as folk singers.  For example, David Bowie started out on the folk circuit (he made an appearance at Orpington Folk Club for example).  However, to call David Bowie a folk artist would be pushing it.  John Martyn also started out as a "folk singer songwriter" but very quickly evolved out of the genre.  Both of these artists are Singer Songwriters because they sing their own songs.  If we deny this, then we need to invent a new term to cover artists that sing their own songs but are not "folk".


 * These days there are many more outlets available for Singer Songwriters, such as Open Mikes and clubs that run in a similar way to folk clubs but call themselves "acoustic music clubs" or "folk and roots" or "acoustic roots". They go out of their way to invent some term that is not Folk because that really does mean something very specific most of the time - the performance of "traditional" music.  Although as I said it does depend on who you ask.


 * Thus I submit that the definition of a singer songwriter should simply be someone that performs their own songs either in public or on recordings, without regard to style or genre. Personally I do not stop being a singer songwriter because I write a Jazz tune and play it with my band, as an example. The next day I might play the same song at a folk club or acoustic roots club.  I remain a singer songwriter regardless.


 * If you write your own song and then sing it somehow, then you are a singer songwriter. This does not mean that we can't describe tendancies for singer songwriters to write in certain styles, of course.  But it is very wrong in my opinion to keep the focus on Folk Music.Dndn1011 16:06, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Johnny Cash not a Songwriter?
Not sure what the beef is here, but Johnny Cash started his career as a singer-songwriter. Apparently he had is break singing one of his own songs as opposed to a cover to a record producer. On a side note, it is getting silly listing every songwriter. We need a seperate page with a list of songwriters. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dndn1011 (talk • contribs) 00:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

Only most notable singer songwriters should be listed here
So for now lets keep the ones that are there, but add no more. If you can argue that some other singer songwriter should be listed, it will have to replace one of the existing names. Otherwise this will get out of hand.

Please do not add any more names to this article.

Dndn1011 20:12, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, there is a list page, List of singer-songwriters (look under "See also") &mdash; but thats a whole other mess &mdash; I don't think anyone really understands why that list is split into two parts. At some point we should do a complete re-write of this article, source the definition of the hyphenated term "singer-songwriter" and it's history, and then only add artists' names that have a source explaining why they are significant to defining this term.  Even then, I fear, it will be a battle to keep the article clean.... For now, keep fighting the good fight. -MrFizyx 02:19, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

If we're talking about notable...
A certain Damien Rice is conspicuously absent from this entire article.

Ryan Moore 20:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Tim Hardin
Returned Tim Hardin to the list. He was a well known singer songwriter in the 1960s and 1970s who died a little after John Lennon in December 1980. His biggest hit was "If I were a Carpenter", the article about him begins as follows:

Tim Hardin (December 23, 1941 – December 29, 1980) was a United States folk musician and composer who was a part of the 1960s Greenwich Village folk scene and performer at the Woodstock Festival. Modernist 12:17, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Lisa Marie Presley
According to critics in Rolling Stone,Billboard and others, she shows real promise as a singer songwriter. Each of her CD's have gone Gold and Platinum. Shouldn't she be included as an emerging artist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.244.81.249 (talk) 18:43, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Real promise as a songwriter is different than being recognized as a singer/songwriter. I would prefer that this article stayed close to its original intent (IMHO) which was those non-pop singers who perform at small venues and are known for their songs more than their performances. -- wrp103 (Bill Pringle)  (Talk) 17:54, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Chances are good that she meets some definition of singer-songwriter. There is nothing, however, to indicate that she is critical to defining the term. -MrFizyx 15:04, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I would not call her a pop singer her songs are dark and brooding, very introverted. The genre she most easily fits is rock singer/songwriter. Those above mentioned indicated promise as singer/songwriter. She has the edge of a Indie rock artist, but her production might be a little to polished for her to be embraced fully by Indie critics. Her mentor was Johnny Ramone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.202.182.100 (talk • contribs)


 * As a tribute she recorded the Ramones Here Today, Gone Tomorrow. Johnny was to play on it, but was to ill. Johnny Rotten filled in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.202.182.100 (talk • contribs) 14:59, 22 October 2007


 * The article is poorly developed. It has too many names and not enough citations.  If you're just here to add your favorite artist, you're not helping.  -MrFizyx 04:10, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Scope of article
When I first started working on this article, it was originally aimed at singer-songwriters that normally perform in small venues such as coffee-houses, church basements, as well as folk festivals. These people are normally solo (sometimes a duo) performers that are closer to folk music than pop music. Unfortunately (IMHO) some editors have expanded the scope to include pop singers, claiming that if a singer has ever written a song, they can be called a singer/songwriter.

I have no problem including performers who have become well known (like Indigo Girls), and could even be talked into those who started out as singer/songwriters and evolved into pop singers (like Billy Joel, because of songs like "Piano Man".)

Do others agree with my understanding of the scope of this article? Can we at least get a consensus that the article should not include primarily pop singers? -- wrp103 (Bill Pringle) (Talk) 13:10, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi Bill, I think I did agree with you when I started editing here, but I've done a good bit of reading on the subject since then and I've come to feel that the acoustic-folk singer-songwriter is only part of the picture. In 2007 the definition is more complex.  Perhaps, we can rewrite parts of the article and base them on sources rather than our "humble opinions".  I do think there is an important role in the article for the definition they you are talking about and I do think that a singer-songwriter refers to something more specific than than anyone who can write and sing, but we need to source any claims and to be open to a number of the published definitions available.


 * Maybe I'll take a crack at some of this. I struggle with time and attention span on Wikipedia though.  In terms of scope I'm more concerned with all of the international stuff that has been dumped in--some of this has little to do with the English language hypenated term singer-songwriter as it has developed in the US/UK. For example, the German Wikipedia has seen no need to merge their article on Liedermacher into Singer-Songwriter--the two terms don't appear to be closely related.  Also, although there have been many fine Austrailian singer-songwriters (Nick Cave, Kasey Chambers, Jeff Lang) I wouldn't create a special section in the article for them--aren't they using the same definition as North Americans? -MrFizyx 15:01, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Starving artist/acoustic guitar
Judging from the first paragraph - the definition of "starving" artist begins here because it sounds like they are scraping by without a backup band. Also I've noticed throughout the 40 plus years of the genre - the major tool of this type of performer is the acoustic guitar (plus a capo). I may be stereotyping a tad - just a weak attempt at humor here. Even when I'm listening to someone new such as Daniel Powter or Sara Bareilles - I can't help but think Randy Newman, Laura Nyro or Carole King and even Paul McCartney/Billy Joel. The best description of this genre is the Rolling Stone Illustrated History Of Rock & Roll (last published in 1993). Most of these performers tend to write very personal songs and work outside the context of a rock band or the typical machinations of the record industry. Read a lot of the bios on these performers - folk festivals, coffee houses and the description here seems to be correct.

21:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC) Bold text

Intro and NPOV
I modified the intro paragraph, because the uncited statements didn't sound very NPOV or encyclopedic. Here are the parts I removed (with emphasis on the main reasons for doing this):
 * [...] This form of artistic expression is very common among performers with less money than more well-known pop artists who can afford to hire backup musicians. Some of these artists depend on word of mouth and extensive touring to garner a fan base and commonly appear at house concerts, coffee houses, folk clubs, and festivals. [...] their output is not sufficient for them to be known by the title of singer-songwriter [...]

If someone wants them back, I think they need sources. I'm not saying they are wrong necessarily. Also, the rest of the article needs attention by someone more knowledgeable than me. Otus (talk) 15:26, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I support your edits, nice job. Even if this was referenced, much of it probably didn't belong in the lead anyway.  Jgm (talk) 20:53, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Editing list of "promient and popular"
I just culled several names from the paragraph about "singer songwriters who rose to prominence and popularity in the late 1960s and early 1970s" to be limited to those that met the description. Many others were influential, popular in other genres (ie. country), widely covered, or already well known as recording artists. I tried to leave in marginal cases. I hated to see some of these go also, but we must resist the temptation to bloat such illustrative lists with favorites. There is already a List of singer-songwriters. Jgm (talk) 20:53, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Miscategorization and interpretations
I tend to see today's singer-songwriters often miscategorized as blue-eyed soul, etc. However - true singer-songwriters to me tend to write deeply personal songs. That's why remakes of the best of singer-songwriters rarely become hits - it's not totally genuine - the songs written to relieve some of that personal angst of the writer. e.g. no one has even attempted to do a credible version of James Taylor's "Fire and Rain," and Harry Chapin's, "Taxi." Madonna's version of "American Pie" and the 90's dance version of "If You Could Read My Mind" were only minor hits and they were also in a way - cheesy - because these versions took the song out of its original context and made it seem trivial.

21:09, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * What about Bob Dylan? See List of artists who have covered Bob Dylan songs; there are a bunch of covers of his songs that were hits. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:37, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

This article needs some serious attention.
It seems to me that no one has paid any real attention to this article for a long while now, and it seems it has fallen victim to some horrible editing. the entier North America and UK section seems totally biased, and i could only understand half of what was trying to be said. i am new to Wikipedia, so i dont have the skill to do the drastic changes this article deserves. can anyone more experianced help? HFTCW (talk) 08:01, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

The more i think about it, the more i wish i could just demolish and re-build this article from the ground up. I have at least been reading many Wikipedia articles for some time now, and i can not think of one that looked as horrible as this article. HFTCW (talk) 08:23, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

This paragraph seems to be utter gibberish:


 * The first popular recognition of the singer-songwriter in English-speaking North America and Great Britain occurred in the 2008 and early 2009 when a series of rap and pop music-influenced musicians. These singer-songwriters included Brittany, Simon, Rhianna, Biancaand more. People who had been primarily songwriters, notably Brittany, also began releasing work as performers. In contrast to the storytelling approach of most prior country and folk music, these performers typically wrote songs from a highly personal (often first-person), introspective point of view. The adjectives "confessional" and "sensitive" were often used (sometimes derisively) to describe this early singer-songwriter style. That is the end with Brittany.

Are we seriously to believe that popular recognition of singer songwriters began in 2008? And who are Brittany and Simon? The former links to the French province and the latter to the name. Paul B (talk) 10:17, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


 * All this gibberish was added by an IP a short while ago . The author seems obsessed with one "Brittany Schnieder". Reverted. Paul B (talk) 10:25, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Wow, great job man! thanks HFTCW (talk) 20:50, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

This article is really poor, can someone do a better piece please?!
I'm sorry to say it but this article sums up the essence of a singer-songwriter in absolutely no way, shape or form whatsoever. What is the motive of a singer songwriter? what drives them? who are the characters behind the names? What kind of person does this? How are they different from other types of artists/writers? The article does not explore any of these key points. A songwriter is unique in that they are able to express the feelings of themselves and others in a way that everybody can relate to, but they are also seeking to convey deeper messages and themes when their work is viewed from an holistic point of view. They explore the feelings we all have (happiness, sadness, nostalgia) and then put their balls on the line to convey it in a medium many consider to be the highest form of art...and certainly the form of art most likely to draw criticism. Thats the best thing about singer-songwriters. And yet this article doesn't even mention any of these things! Instead it's just a namecheck of well known artists who we all know about anyway. The singer-songwriter is the modern-day prophet. That's what this article should be about. So who wants to write the proper article? =)

-This is your opinion, but it isn't necessarily true. Singer-songwriters are regular people with regular jobs. Some may 'explore feelings' in the ways you suggest, but the same can be said for many other occupations. This sort of emotional drivel is best left out of this article. ~Pbagwell —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pbagwell (talk • contribs) 05:46, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

cantautori
In the first place, it is absolutely false that songs by Italian cantautori always have a social/political content! Sometimes they do, sometimes they do not. Social/political themes are rare in important cantautori such as Lucio Dalla and De Gregori, and virtually absent in others such as Battiato and Battisti.

Secondly, what is the evidence supporting the claim that "the most important cantautore is Lucio Battisti"? From my own personal experience (not from my tastes!) the great majority of people considers Fabrizio de Andre' the main cantautore. As far as I can see, the interest in Battisti is declining. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.37.218.29 (talk) 23:35, 21 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree: it is simply false that "cantautori" always have social/political content, and the claim is contradicted when Volare by Modugno is cited; in fact, that song has no social/political content. Even trying to give a current single top most famous cantautore is, according to me, "silly". Moreover, italian wikipedia about Cantautori says that the term for De André could be disputable since almost all his songs are written altogether with someone else (e.g. Bubola and others). --Ittakezou0 (talk) 10:13, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Lucio Battisti is one of the most famous italian singer, but, actually, he's not a "cantautore"; his lyrics were made mostly by mogol. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.132.9.242 (talk) 17:21, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

When did the singer-songwriter style begin?
I disagree with the basic premise of this article that singer-songwriters began with Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger then nothing until the 1960's. However since I don't know much before the 1960's, I can't refute it myself. Other than to say: What about the strong tradition of Irish folk music? This wasn't mentioned at all in this article; Irish folk music is very political and topical, (e.g. get the hell out of Ireland!) And folk music in general? This article needs a music historian to connect the dots between the tradition of folk music and modern singer songwriters. Then somehow some of them cross over into pop. We know what happened when Dylan went electric at Newport.

I would bet there were singer songwriters/ folk musicians before the 1930's but there was no industry to promote music beyond the local pub. Is it just that we don't know who they were? --Mikeymichelle (talk) 07:02, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Unrelated paragraph
I went ahead and deleted the following paragraph. It is unrelated in every possible way.

The kingdom of heaven shined upon the earth and the people of this world stepped out to meet the great destroyer. Unkind in its efforts but true to the task. A world of pigs left haunted by things in their past. free yourselves as i have in my name, or i will dwell in the misery and humanity's shame. A current ran through the thoughts of the devine, the message was clear and on time. Give yourself up to the ghost you know to be leary and shrew. Give up to the ghost, more human than you. Fear not of the unseen as they feel their way through, fear only of the energy that lives inside you. In the name of the father, the sun and the holy, let us pray to the dogma of darkness and the sold. My will is for God the reality of life. The truth about self in the brightest of light. Sexual demon of purity and grace, cast the shadow of conciousness it's beauty in face. The eyes that wonder on earth and in space, the voice of the devil loving to taste. The knowledge of trust served up in glorious ways, living to die a real hummble place. glory to god and he was good at what he do —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.6.195.233 (talk) 09:28, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Noel Gallagher, Damon Albarn, Richard Ashcroft.
Among others are to date some of the most succesful singer songwriters from England. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.84.34.218 (talk) 02:11, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:Domenico Modugno - Volare.ogg
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Additional citations
Why, what, where, and how does this article need additional citations for verification? Hyacinth (talk) 14:21, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It's an old tag from 2007, I added a load of references back in March. Doesn't hurt to keep adding references...Modernist (talk) 14:28, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Removed paragraph about italian "cantautori"
The paragraph was


 * Although the term, in theory, might refer to all those who compose and then perform their own songs, including, say, medieval troubadors, the term in contemporary Italian refers to a large number of relatively recent Italian popular singers − archetypically those who rose to prominence during the student protests of the 1960s and '70s − who write songs that may or may not be particularly melodic but always have social or political relevance. Ref. to History of Italian pop music (in Italian)

For the purposes of comparison, Bob Dylan would be an American cantautore.

The last sentence could be put back, but the rest has not support by the reference. The text in the reference (which is not an authoritative reference) talking about the term "cantautori", once translated is: "in Italy these musicians were called cantautori since, as their french colleagues, they write the lyrics and compose the music of their own songs. The main features of the songs of the cantautori were: simple melodies, but not banal; accompaniment often given to a single instrument (guitar, piano) ... Great importance was given to the lyrics, that sometimes talked about social arguments but mostly they renewed traditional themes (e.g. love and family) avoiding commonplaces and banalities"

These words do not support the claim of the removed paragraph (i.e. that lyrics have always social or political relevance). It says that at the beginning one of the feature of the first "cantautori" were simple melodies ... and great importance to the lyrics. There's no a clue that suggests that currently (or even in that time) those features distinguish who is a cantautore from who is not though being the writer of the songs he sings.

Cantautore is a broad term as singer-songwriter: a songwriter who sings what s/he has written. --Ittakezou0 (talk) 10:40, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

A few songwriters who cover other peoples songs
Pete Seeger, Johnny Cash, Billie Holiday, Ray Charles, Nina Simone, Josh White, Cisco Houston, Malvina Reynolds, Ewan MacColl, Doc Watson, Roger McGuinn, David Crosby, Janis Joplin, Joan Baez, Judy Collins, Stevie Wonder, Carly Simon, Patsy Cline, Tammy Wynette, Loretta Lynn, George Jones, Merle Haggard, Roger Miller, Nanci Griffith, k.d. lang, Dave Van Ronk, Waylon Jennings, Dolly Parton, Sarah McLachlan, Sheryl Crow, and Rick Nelson and many others...Modernist (talk) 02:39, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

I Soloute to the men (or women) that wrote this one
it's actually a very delicate subject, that is hard to explain, and this men did it very well! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.111.29.2 (talk) 18:44, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Why is there only one woman pictured?
Out of the ten photos included in the article (and all three headlining the page), nine of them are of men. Do women only make up 10% of singer-songwriters? Are the likes of Joni Mitchell, Joan Baez, Carole King or about a thousand others I could name off the top of my head so lacking in notability? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.116.39.191 (talk) 03:36, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Definition of term
There is contradictory content in the lead and the beginning of the first section. A bunch of pop stars are incorrectly labeled 'singer-songwriters' because they write lyrics and sing. This article should focus on a consistent definition of the term and any evolution of its meaning throughout time, with emphasis, particularly in the lead, on a definitive definition.--Lpdte77 (talk) 04:57, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Definition of singer-songwriter
Fellow Wikipedians, how can we distinguish the Wikipedia articles of those who at least PARTIALLY write and sing their own songs from those who are simply singers? For example, Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong did NOT write any of their own songs at all, while Taylor Swift, Sam Smith, Tom Petty, and numerous others DO write their own, but are not sole contributors to the songs? How should we define these singers, especially when the definition is so confusing throughout much of Wikipedia and its readers who read these articles? Thebuck093 (talk) 05:55, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The section above this concerned with the definition of the term within the article, although no response yet. Article content is based on what reliable, secondary sources say it's up to the sources whether an artist is a singer-songwriter. If reliable music sources refer to the artist a singer-songwriter then they can be sourced as such.--Lapadite (talk) 08:04, 24 January 2015 (UTC)


 * What is your objection to describing someone as a "singer" and a "songwriter" and including them in categories related to both? Why is using the hyphenated "singer-songwriter" important?&mdash;Kww(talk) 15:05, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Kww, I have no objection to that. I personally define a singer-songwriter as someone who both writes and sings their own material regardless of the genre and whether alone or with others. I have tried to emphasize this, but some other editors do not believe that all popular musicians who write their own music or co-write are singer-songwriters. Thebuck093 (talk) 19:24, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Look at the lead of this article. Your personal definition is clearly wrong. There is also an RfC stating the same thing. Nymf (talk) 19:52, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
 * You didn't really answer my question. Why is using the hyphenated form important to you when it is clearly wrong?&mdash;Kww(talk) 22:10, 25 January 2015 (UTC)


 * A discussion has been started at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Musicians AngusWOOF ( bark  •  sniff ) 17:00, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

SERENA SOYA (VERIFIED)
Please checkout Singer/Songwriter Serena Soya at www.iamserenasoya.com

"not in citation" tag
I couldn't find anything in the citations given that specifically exclude "pop music singers who write or co-write their own songs" so not in citation tag was added. Because this seems to be causing confusion on other pages, it seems this should be removed unless solid sourcing specifically excluding pop singers is located. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 16:19, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I removed the refs from the lead as they shouldn't have been there to begin with. I don't think it's meant to specifically exclude "pop music singers", but rather to distinct from the confusion of a singer who may write their own songs. There was an RfC here on the subject. Nymf (talk) 12:13, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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Liedermacher, singer and songwriter in German speaking countries
Material for adding a new section: --Kmhkmh (talk) 14:21, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
 * https://books.google.de/books?id=5ShDDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA11 also pp. 43
 * https://books.google.de/books?id=rMKHCOW9aIYC&pg=PT823
 * https://books.google.de/books?id=XFKOv9r0CKUC&pg=PA2 also pp. 123
 * http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/pop/deutschlands-liedermacher-wortmoerder-ahoi-1304313-p3.html (german)
 * http://www.tagesspiegel.de/kultur/liedermacher-in-kevelaer-extrem-liedermaching/7248718.html (german)

Hyphen vs. Dash
Shouldn't the term "singer–songwriter" be written with an en dash rather than a hyphen? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.240.223.64 (talk) 05:30, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Norah Jones photo caption
Identifying Jones as Ravi Shankar's daughter seems irrelevant to her role as a singer-songwriter in her own right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BeholdMan (talk • contribs) 04:12, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Request for comment
There is an RfC ongoing about a topic that contributors to this article may be interested in. It can be found here. JimKaatFan (talk) 15:03, 1 August 2021 (UTC)