Talk:Single-elimination tournament/Archive 1

"Seed"
Does anyone know how the word "seed" cam to be used in this context?


 * This is in analogy to placing seeds in a seedbed. Here, some players are carefully placed into the "tournament tree". Aragorn2 21:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Rationale for seeding
Maybe it would be interesting to note that the loser of the finals is not necessarily the second-best player (likewise for lower ranks), even if, for simplicity, it is assumed that "betterness" in this respect is constant over time and a transitive relation (that is, if A will win over B, and B will win over C, then A will win over C). This is one of the reasons why (re-)seeding is performed, of course, but it is not explicitely stated in the article. Worst-case example with 8 players/teams, where numbers indicate the assumed skill ranking:

First round (competing pairs in parentheses): (1 2) (3 4) (5 6) (7 8)

Second round: (1 3) (5 7) (2, 4, 6 and 8 were eliminated)

Third round: (1 5)

Best player wins (as expected) but fifth-best undeservedly ranks second.

A seeding approach, on the other hand, would ideally look like this: First round: (1 5) (3 7) (2 6) (4 8)

Second round: (1 3) (2 4)

Third round: (1 2)

So the second-best player would score second (as desired). Good seeding thus requires that the approximate skill level of the contestants is known beforehand. The principal problem arises because only $$log_2 n$$ rank "comparisons" (that is matches) are performed, where $$n$$ is the number of contestants, and this is not enough to determine any rank for sure other than the first. (See Sorting.)

Of course, in the real world, "betterness" is not strictly transitive, let alone constant over time, but this only aggravates this tournament ranking problem. Aragorn2 21:47, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

formula for amount of byes
In case you wanted this;

the formula for figuring out the number of teams recieving first round by is: b=x-[(x-y)*2) b-number of teams reciving first round bye                 x- number of teams in tournament                                            y-next closest number to x that is lower than x and a power of 2

Number of opening round games
number of opening round games formula is                                    n=(x-y)*2                                                                    n- number of first round games                                               x- number of teams in tournamenst                                            y- next closest number to number of teams in tournament that is a factor of two and lower than the amount of temas.

Question about byes...
I know that, in a professional wrestling tournament, that if a match is booked to end in a double-disqualification, a double-countout, or a time limit draw, BOTH competitors are eliminated and whoever would have faced the winner of that match instead gets a bye to the next round.

My question is, are there any real-life situations where neither competitor would advance through? (such as a case where, for example, one player was defeated and the winner of that match was found to have cheated to gain the victory, would both be taken out?) Blozier2006 (talk) 23:00, 20 January 2012 (UTC)


 * See Boxing at the 1984 Summer Olympics. jnestorius(talk) 17:51, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Question
Which of these is correct?


 * Semifinals
 * Semi finals
 * Semi-finals


 * Either the first or the third. It should always be consistent within the same article.  Style generally frowns on hyphens where there is doubt, but I would say that "semi-final" is probably the most widely accepted, at least in N. American English  2600:1004:B101:FDDB:D901:6751:7DA8:570F (talk) 02:37, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Merge
The Bye (sports) page is a confused mess, and the bulk of it is a lame attempt to explain and provide examples for the write-up in this section. It all stems from the NFL corruption of the term "bye" in reference to "scheduled off weeks", and no one seems to realize that the original sense of the term "bye" with respect to tournaments already has a good write up. It doesn't help that there is a wee bit of math involved, concerning powers of two. The tournament "bye" sense explanation needs to be consolidated in a main page -- either here, or the other page -- and the utter duplication of content needs to stop. Nusumareta (talk) 19:24, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

FIFA World Cup
For some reason, the link from "seed" in the article on 1930 FIFA World Cup links to this article rather than the article "Seed (sports)". This seems wrong, as even though the usage has a similar meaning, the FIFA World Cup, with three pool-play games for all participants prior to the "knockout" stage, is anything but a single-elimination tournament until it enters the knockout rounds. For this reason, should the linkage be changed to the general "seed" article instead? 2600:1004:B101:FDDB:D901:6751:7DA8:570F (talk) 02:43, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Merge from Knockout tournaments
Section Knockout tournaments of article Tournament duplicates information in this article. I propose that we take the following steps: Mathglot (talk) 01:42, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
 * keep this article Single-elimination tournament as the main article about this topic
 * merge most of the information from section Tournament into this article
 * replace the long section Tournament with a paragraph or two summary version
 * add a note atop the new summary section there using main to point to this article


 * Oppose. Did you read Tournament? As it attempts to explain, there are multiple types of knockout tournament, of which the Single-elimination tournament is only one. If this is not clear, then a rewrite of Tournament may be in order to make it so, but not a merger. There is already a WP:SUMMARY of Single-elimination tournament, but there are also mentions of other types, including double-elimination tournament, Repechage, McIntyre System, all of which are Knockout tournaments and none of which are single-elimination tournaments. The "stepladder format" is arguably a subtype of Single-elimination tournament and so discussion of it could be moved out of Tournament into  Single-elimination tournament. jnestorius(talk) 16:18, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I've made knockout tournament redirect here as I think this is WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. I added a hatnote to Tournament, jnestorius(talk) 12:36, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Other names
I've removed three also-known-as names from the lede. Per MOS:BOLDSYN only "significant" aliases should be includeed; and per WP:OTHERNAMES if there are more than three then make a Names section. jnestorius(talk) 12:36, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Olympic system tournament: is this specific to boxing? Many Olympic sports don't use single-elimination tournaments.
 * Bump-Off: I found only a few Google hits.
 * single penetration: is this a joke? I hesitate to Google it.