Talk:Sioux City, Iowa/Archive 1

Older discussions
Is that red dot a bit westerly for Sioux City? Aliter 20:40, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Never mind. Mistook the shape of the map.Aliter 20:52, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * lol, I thought you'd gone crazy... a city in Iowa on the Pacific Coast? :) ugen64 20:45, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

Also, I thought Sioux City was actually in three states. Aliter 20:40, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * No Sioux City is in Iowa. However it is on the border to both Nebraska and South Dakota.  Nebraska has a city called South Sioux City right across the border and South Dakota has a city called North Sioux City right across the border.  Additionally, the metropolitan area of Sioux City probably includes areas in South Dakota and Nebraska.  However, Sioux City is only in Iowa.

I'm wondering if anyone can confirm/deny what I was told while living in Sioux City reguarding why South Sioux is so run down (basically, no offense, 5 used car dealerships, a couple fast food places, and some small housing) vs North Sioux. This is how I remember it being told:

Originally it was a bit more even, except that all the industry was on the north side of the river and all the housing was on the south side. There was a main bridge between the two that was getting old, so they build a new bridge and tore down the old one....only to find out the new one was structurally unsound and had to be torn down as well. So now there was no easy way, short of driving an hour out of town, to drive from one side to the other. This resulted in everyone moving to the North side, and the South side going to crap.


 * You've been fed what is mostly a tall tale. Yes, most of the industry has traditionally been on the Iowa (north) side of the river.  And yes, there was an old bridge that was replaced by a new bridge (the Veterans Memorial Bridge) in 1981 (IIRC).  And yes, the new bridge had a structural defect in it.  However, there is a second bridge across the Missouri River only a few miles away -- the I-129 bridge -- and there was never any sort of panicked rush to move from the Nebraska side to the Iowa side.  Quite the contrary -- South Sioux City, Neb., has seen a population gain of over 20% since that incident, while Sioux City's population has only risen about 4% (and actually fell in the 1980s).  Sioux City has always been far larger than its neighbors across the river.  The south side of the river has no more "gone to crap" than has the north side.  (The region's largest employer is on the south side too, I might add.  There's more than just used car dealerships.)  Nick Storm 17:29, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to remove the reference to the "Home of Harvey's" in the Riverside neighborhood. This isn't something found in a Google search for "Harveys sioux city", and also isn't found in a yahoo local search for "harvey's" in Sioux City.

If anyone puts it back with more description, please feel free to delete this paragraph. --Doug

Photos
can someone put some pictures on here? it's kind of bare
 * Yes, a picture of the Floyd momument would be especially nice.

If anyone has personal photos or public domain images of Sioux City: Floyd Monument, War Eagle Park, Band Shell, riverfront, etc., please post them here. Jerry picker 14:32, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

There was already a photo of Floyd's Monument when I got here, but I posted a photo I took of the Memorial bridge and also a photo from Stone Park. I got my new Canon Rebel XT so if you see some guy wandering around town with a camera and a tripod -- that's me. :) -Tom

I posted Pictures of Sioux City but some ass took them down what's the point of being on this site if my hard work gets deleted Bboy100 (talk) 17:43, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

Sections of main article

 * I took the liberty of moving the "Parks, recreation..." section up to follow the "Neighborhoods..." section. It seems to follow more naturally in this sequence. Much valuable textual information about Sioux City recreation was "hiding" way at the bottom, after the rather dry lists of highways and TV & radio stations. People often ask (disparagingly), "What is there to do in Sioux City, anyway?" I answer, "PLENTY!" Let's give SC rec some priority here at Wikipedia. Thanks! Jerry picker 20:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * "Neighborhood and Commercial District". Some excellent and unusual material has recently been added by 70.18.251.175. It would be great if 70.18.251.175 might tell us something about her/himself on their user page. Their insights and knowledge of the "Little Chicago" era and underbelly aspects of old Sioux CIty are fascinating and very valuable! Jerry picker 15:57, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

JERRY-- I am the author of those sections dealing with the underbelly of Sioux City's history. Let's just say that, in addition to growing up in Sioux City, (I lived there a combined total of about 27 years, but not continously). I have not lived there for the past 30 years. I was always fascinated by the Bottoms, which I remember vividly, and Lower Fourth, where I worked for many years, and by earlier accounts of the Soudan, etc. (it was mentioned in a few 19th century books, and at least 1 novel).

It was my fortunate lot to know (and love) many of the old businesses and human characters of old Lower Fourth Street, and I became fascinated with the bootleggers, the guys who ran the streets, and I watched 'em in action for years and years. I was also fortunate to have known Mr. John Schmidt, the Sioux City historian, and I well remember my long conversations with Mr. Schmidt as we rode together on the city bus each day from dowtown to Morningside. Mr. Schmidt was real elderly then and he was working at the SC Main Library compiling information for his book that was finally published in 1969. He was a wonderful man who included ALL of the Sioux City story-- warts, whores, gangsters and all-- in his anthology. He did it in a kind, tongue-in-cheek sort of way, but he wasn't afraid to address it. By contrast, when one picks up the later work by Scott Sorenson (a non-native) and Paul Chicoine (a photographer, not a trained historian), you repeately see them downplay the "Little Chicago" comparison as "highly romanticized" or "overblown." I wonder what cocoon they grew up in? You could not have lived in Sioux City in the old days and missed the rackets and corruption all around-- I mean, you had to be blind and deaf to miss it. It permeated all aspects of everyday life! But the ironic thing is, that, after repeatedly downplaying "Little Chicago," Sorenson and Chicoine proceed to document crook after crook, scandal after scandal, corruption after corruption, almost from page 20 of their book to the bitter end. Who did Sorenson and Chicoine think they were fooling? Anyway, those two mis-informed souls aside, I lived it, I saw it. I could cite chapter and verse the names of the Sicilian mafia guys, the head of the Greek gang, and the Irish mobster I have referred to in my additions-- they all lived in Sioux City in my lifetime, and I knew them and I knew what they did and how they made their money. Even without this material, there is ample information to document a corrupt City Hall and Police Department stretching decade to decade, era to era in old Sioux City. And I knew crooked cops too-- cops on the take, and cops who cavorted with gangsters and hookers. I refuse to name their names in my contributions out of respect for their relatives, and because, to be truthful, some of these folks were my friends. Anyhow, what purpose would it serve anyway? You either accept this is the way it was, or you are in denial, like Scott Sorenson and Paul Chicoine.

I tink that, rather than try to hide the real Sioux City story behind "clean" images of Floyd's Monument or 100 Shriners on white horses, we who survive to document history should EMBRACE our colorful past head-on, and make the very most of it. Do you see the people of Deadwood or Dodge City denying their past? Nope, they profit from it.

IN FACT, IF I LIVED IN SIOUX CITY TODAY, I'D FIND SOME SPACE DOWN THERE IN "HISTORIC FOURTH STREET" AND I WOULD OPEN UP THE TONIEST, MOST EXPENSIVE ITALIAN-STYLE CHOP HOUSE I COULD AFFORD, AND I WOULD ERECT A BIG, GAUDY NEON SIGN THAT SAID, "JOE FATS' LITTLE CHICAGO CHOP HOUSE." IN HONOR OF JOE FATS, WHO RAN THE RACKETS ON FOURTH STREET DURING MY TIME. AND I'D MAKE A KILLING!!! Just sign me, "Mickey Finn"

Sioux City social institutions/great places
I thought the discussion about Harvey's was interesting - if it is not appearing in searches, then it would be difficult to verify it as an important social landmark to those without personal knowledge. However, I feel an article about Sioux City (and compared to many cities I have seen on Wiki ours is growing into something to be very proud of - thanks to all) is incomplete without the places that make it unique and special.

Harvey's may be that defining place to Riverside/Westsiders. I hear Briar Cliff alums frequent Prince's Tavern, but I am not sure it is necessarily a place that helps set Sioux City apart from other places.

To Northsiders, I think of Green Gables as a singularly unique place, as well as Mike's Saloon and possibly Tony's.

Morningside? Pete's 20th? Morningside natives would have to provide insight there.

We have Milwaukee Weiner Shop, Coney Island and George's No. 14. How many places boast uncannily good hot dogs originated and still operated by our Greek immigrant families?

What do other regular (and new or infrequent) contributors think of this? Agree? Disagree? Too subjective to include in a factual article?

Tom Brokaw?
Someone changed the listing for Tom Brokaw to add that he grew up in Pickstown and then in Yankton, South Dakota. Tom Brokaw was born in Webster, South Dakota as a child prior to moving to Yankton. I know this because my father and I used to take walks past the Brokaws' former home on visits to my grandparents. Where did the information come from about Pickstown? Is there even a Pickstown in South Dakota? I have been unable to find this information on a Google search. I have taken the liberty of changing Pickstown to Webster, as the additional information that he lived elsewhere before moving to Yankton as a teenager is valuable.

If someone has information that he also lived in Pickstown, please feel free to change it. So far, I have been unable to verify the information about Pickstown. I had previously thought his relationship with Sioux City, working here a couple of years, was tenuous at best. He may conceivably have commuted to work in Sioux City from Yankton or somewhere else and technically never been a "Sioux City native."

IN REPLY TO YOUR QUERY: I TOTALLY AGREE THAT LISTING BROKAW AS A SIOUX CITY NATIVE IS COMPLETELY INAPPROPRIATE. BUT IF ITS GOING TO BE THERE, IT SHOULD BE ACCURATE. PLEASE READ BROKAW'S AUTOBIOGRAPHY: "A LONG WAY FROM HOME." DELIGHTFUL READ, IN WHICH HE DOCUMENTS HIS BIRTHPLACE IN NORTHEAST SOUTH DAKOTA, HIS ADOLESCENT YEARS IN PICKSTOWN AND HIS HIGH SCHOOL AND COLLEGE YEARS IN YANKTON, SIOUX CITY (KTIV), IOWA CITY AND VERMILLION. PICKSTOWN WAS THE CORPS OF ENGINEERS-DESIGNED & BUILT COMMUNITY 12 MILES WEST OF WAGNER SOUTH DAKOTA. IT HOUSED A COUPLE OF THOUSAND WORKERS BROUGHT TO THE SITE BY THE CORPS TO CONSRUCT THE PICKSTOWN/FORT RANDALL DAM ON THE MISSOURI RIVER. TOM'S FATHER, "RED" BROKAW, WAS A HEAVY EQUIPMENT OPERATOR WHO WORKED ON THE DAM PROJECT FROM ITS INCEPTION TO ITS COMPLETION. THEN "RED" MOVED HIS FAMILY DOWNRIVER TO YANKTON, WHERE HE CONTINUED HIS EMPLOYMENT WITH THE CORPS OF ENGINEERS IN CONSTRUCTING GAVINS POINT DAM. ITS ALL IN THE BOOK........ AND AFTER READING ALL THIS IT SHOULD CONVINCE ANYONE THAT HE DOESN'T BELONG ON THIS LIST.

UH...excuse me, but regarding Actress Sharon Farrell, I am nearly 100 percent sure that she graduated East High School, not Central...can someone confirm?

Tommy Bolin
Another recent change is to the listing for Tommy Bolin. Is there a reason to single him out for his substance abuse such that the description of his substance abuse is longer than the description of his musical career? Which is important in a Wikipedia article? Lots of people have died of drug overdose. Not many had the musical talent of Tommy Bolin. I find the description of his use as "behavior" a bit non-objective as well.

I have no issue with the fact that he did abuse drugs and alcohol and that this did lead to his death; I just find that in our conservative community that is the focus - he was our most famous addict - and already very few people really know him for his music.

Whether this site will mostly have Sioux City natives or the natively curious as its readers, I think we are developing a very well-rounded page for Sioux City and would hate to see it marred by the unobjective.

Just my $0.02.

Reply: When you are a public figure, as Tommy was, you are fair game. It is important to know the whole truth, particularly when one realizes that his next of kin have been milking his fame in death for all its worth-- monetarilly-- for some time with a web-site protraying Bolin as some sort of martyred role-model. He was far from it. He lived fast and hard and he died a pathetic and needless death, covered in his own vomit. He's no role-model, he's no superhuman, and he's no mythic figure; he's not even a legend. What he is is a dead guitar player who enjoyed a splash of the big time, but in the end demonstrated that he couldn't handle it. Quite the opposite of other great gifted Sioux Cityans-- musicians, artists, actors-- who learned early on how to be graceful and how to keep fame in perspective. Now Danny Matousek-- HE WAS A ROLE-MODEL. YEAH

Edith and Joe's Cafe?
I'm a teacher and freelance writer, trying to do some research on Edith and Joe's Cafe, where I ate "the greatest breakfast ever served" on June 25, 1977, and to which I returned almost exactly a year later, on June 15, 1978, only to find it turned into a disco. And a pretty hapless one at that, not that I was ever a fan of that suspect art form.

I'd greatly appreciate any insights into the Life and Times of this classic Midwestern cafe, especially: date of opening, date of closing, location of E & J's, reasons for closing.

Thanking you in advance, and please feel free to contact me directly,

I remain yours truly,

JHepCat72, New Wikipedian

Length!!
This article is getting very very long... really out of proportion to the length of articles for other cities the size of Sioux City. I suggest it's time to move some of the lengthy descriptive passages to separate articles, or alternately, prune the article of what I see as excessive detail for an encyclopedia article. --Onyourside 01:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It may be appropriate to start a separate article for Sioux City Folklore and Popular History. That might be a good place for "Tarzan" of Stone Park or colorful criminals, prostitutes, and rum runners. While much of the recent extended material is interesting, I'm not sure that it is of general interest to readers not already familiar with Sioux City. Some of the neighborhood paragraphs are more reminiscences and impressions than concise overviews. East End and Soudan, while interesting, perhaps do not warrant as much or more type/bandwidth as Early History or the entire Parks and Recreation sections. Jerry picker 13:30, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I have broken up the history section to make it more manageable and more readily searchable. Headings for key paragraphs have been added. Jerry picker 00:32, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I have to admit that it's too long, and there doesn't need to be this many details in the history section.--grejlen - talk 21:35, 7 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Might I suggest moving the history section to a History of Sioux City, Iowa article and linking to it from the main page? --Iowahwyman 18:33, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


 * That is an excellent suggestion. Part of what makes this unwieldy is the personal, anecdotal material, which, while interesting, is of marginal importance in a general encyclopedia. Jerry picker 20:11, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Chop chop chop...
I have made the following changes:
 * Moved all history information to History of Sioux City, Iowa. Anyone is welcome to put a condensed version of Sioux City's history back into the main article.  Keep in mind the history information had many unsourced statements and that remains a problem with the article in its new location.
 * Moved all information on the city's neighborhoods and commercial districts to Neighborhoods of Sioux City, Iowa. The same caveats apply.  Again, anyone is welcome to put a condensed list of the more well-known neighborhoods back into the main article.
 * Created a separate article for the Sioux City Symphony Orchestra in order to shorten up the Parks & Rec section. The newly moved orchestra article still needs to be wikified and cleaned up.
 * Put the TV stations in numerical order and removed all extraneous description (such as former call letters) because that information is now available in the respective TV station articles.

Still to be done:
 * The list of notable residents ought to be pruned. If someone doesn't have a Wikipedia article then I will suggest that they aren't notable enough to be on the list.

More updates to the above as I go along. This has shrunk the article to a much more manageable size. --Onyourside 19:25, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

contested statement removed

 * It is also estimated that 40-50% of Plymouth county works in Woodbury county.

Please do not return this information to the article without a citation.-- Birgitte SB  16:46, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Top Employers Table
In the Economy section, the Top Employers Table clearly contained an error in it. It listed Morningside College and Curly's Foods as tied for 7th largest, and yet the number of employees for Morningside was 880, while Curly's Foods and Tri-State Nursing both had 700. I made the simpler correction and changed the rankings, but it's quite possible that Curly's Foods numbers need to be brought into line with Morningside's. This oddity appears to have been in the table since it was added by Shortride. Perhaps someone working on that table can confirm that this was the correct repair or suggest a better one? Thanks! --Frankie Rae (talk) 05:03, 5 March 2011 (UTC)


 * That was the correct fix.
 * --Shortride (talk) 05:19, 5 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Shortride!
 * --Frankie Rae (talk) 18:00, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Plymouth County?
I noticed that RifeIdeas recently reverted an edit which removed "Plymouth County" from the text of this article; RifeIdeas said in the edit summary that no source had been provided to show that Sioux City does not extend into Plymouth County. Can anyone here provide a source that shows that Sioux City does extend into Plymouth County? The map we have in the article (see right), which was derived from U.S. Census data, shows Sioux City entirely contained within Woodbury County. This article claims several times that parts of Sioux City are in Plymouth County, but as far as I can see it never cites a source to substantiate that fact. —Bkell (talk) 04:43, 11 April 2011 (UTC)