Talk:Sir Francis Fletcher-Vane, 5th Baronet

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Vane info from http://www.netpages.free-online.co.uk/worldscouts/ws.htm

Boy Scout Movement: Internationalism-Order of World Scouts

-Figure 1.- There was also a competing international Scout group. In fact, the short-lived Order of World Scouts (OWS) founded in 1911 was the earliest international Scouting organization. While the OWS organization was short lived, they made have well played an important role in encouraging Baden-Powell's British Scouts to expand their international outreach. For a few years the OWS competed with Baden-Powell's Boy Scout Association, but today is little remembered.

British Boy Scouts Americans and Brits tend to think of the Scouts as one united national association. This is not how Scouting developed in many other countries and there were competing associations in both America and Britain. The most significant challenge to Baden-Powell's Scout Association was the British Boy Scouts. Few people today have ever heard of the BBS, but for several years the organization posed a major threat to Baden-Powell's desire for a unified national Scouting movement.

Baden-Powell in 1909 was still an army officer on active duty and did not work full time with the Scouting movement that he had founded. At the time some early Scout leaders felt that the evolving Boy Scouts Association (BSA) was too much oriented toward the military. After all it had been founded by an army general. Some feared that the movement was being influenced by the National Service League, an organization which advocated compulsory military conscription.

The Battersea District Scouts, dissatisfied with the attitude of national Scout officials and concerned with the close connection of Baden-Powell with the military, decided to withdraw from the BSA and form a new Scout association-The British Boy Scouts (BBS). Battersea is a suburb of London. A popular boys' publication Chums, decided in 1909 to sponsor the BBS. Chums' (Cassell and Co. London) was a boys' paper with comics launched in 1892. As Chums was read throughout Britain as well as the overseas Dominions, it proved highly successful in spreading the BBS overseas. Baden-Powell's BSA had no comparable overseas outreach.

Efforts were made to reconcile the differences between the BBS and BSA, but they failed. The result was that the BSA's Commissioner for all of London, Sir Francis Vane, joined the BBS. He became the BBS President and brought with him most of the London troops and many Birmingham troops. Vane helped to arrange an alliance with the Boys Life Brigade (BLB) in 1910 to create the National Peace Scouts (NPS). This reflected the more non-military approach of the BBS. The combined membership of some 85,000, about equal numbers from the two organizations. The NPS never developed into an important group, however; the BLB has a primary religious focus and were not interested in secular Scouting.

HBU at this time has no information at this time on the BBS uniform and to what extent it differed from that of Baden-Powell's BSA uniform.

International Expansion E.P. Carter who had founded the Boys Guide Brigade (BGB) in 1902, a few years before Baden-Powell founded the Scouts. He conferred with Baden-Powell about the BGB. Carter's work helped create a South African BBS. Articles in Chums suggest that the BBS by 1911 had spread to Australia, Canada, Egypt, India, Hong Kong, New Zealand, and various countries in South America. These were all colonies or dominions within the British Empire. The importance of Chums which was distributed in Britain and the verses dominions can be seen here.

The BBS' overseas reach, however, was not limited to Britain's overseas Dominions. The BBS established links in some of the most important foreign countries, with the exception of Germany where the Scout movement was relatively weak-in part because of the importance of the Wandervogel. France: Vane helped Augustin Dufresne, a ship-owner, to form a French Scouting organization (a precursor to the Eclaireurs de France) in 1911. Italy: Vane in 1910 founded the Ragazzi Esploratori Italiani (Italian Boy Scouts) which, as a result, became linked with the BBS. United States: American newspaper magnate, Hearst, formed the American Boy Scout (ABS) which competed with the Boy Scouts of America (BSA). The American BSA was allied with Baden-Powell's BSA. The ABS in 191 linked up with the BBS.

Legion of World Scouting These various national organizations of Scouts associated with the BBS formed a loose federation in 1911 which was called the Legion of World Scouts (LWS). Vane provided the leadership for the LWS.

Order of World Scouting Vane decided a more formal organization was needed and this conceived of the Order of World Scouting (OWS). He tied together the British Boy Scouts in the UK, the British Girl Scouts (founded lat 1909), and British Boy Scouts in the Empire. The OWS was formally founded on November 11, 1911 in the Royal Chapel of the Savoy. It was the earliest international Scouting organization. Baden-Powell's Scouts were still primarily focused on the new organizations British program. The date for formally founding the organization was carefully chosen. It was the date (November 11, 1100) Baldwin was declared King of Jerusalem, successfully ending the first Crusade. This seems a curious date for founding a truly international Scout movement as it represented the bloody imposition of Christian European culture and religion on a non-European people. Vane convinced the French Scouts and the American Boy Scouts (ABS) to join his organization. Of course November 11 would become better known as the date of the Armistice ending World War I.

The OWS for its lore heavily drew from the theme of Knighthood and feudal chivalry which it applied to the whole organization. Baden-Powell had done this with the Scout Law and Promise, but the lore and impetus of Scouting was much more diverse. He drew from both African lore and American Indian lore provided by Ernest Thomson Seaton. Vane drew from the tradition of Grand Masters in both the Knights Templar and the Knights Hospitaller. Vane himself had become the Grand Scout Master of the Order of World Scouts (OWS), a position that has continued up to this day. Vane was a Knight Commander of the Order of Christ, a Portuguese survival of the Order of the Knights of Christ and the Temple (the Templars) which had been suppressed elsewhere by the Pope in the 1200s. It is notable that the British Scouts today have relatively little lore from feudal chivalry while this is much more important with some French Scouts.

Collapse The BBS and the WOS in 1909-11 represented a major challenge to Baden-Powell and the British BSA. It was, however, Vane himself who caused the demise of the BBS and the WOS. Vane committed virtually all his financial resources to funding his Scouting organizations. Unfortunately he made financial commitments beyond his actual resources. Vane failed to cover his obligations concerning the manufacture of BBS uniforms. He was forced to declare bankruptcy in August 1912. As a result, the BBS the OWS lost Vane's London office. The BBS was suddenly adrift. Baden-Powell's BSA refused any form of corporate affiliation. The BSA demanded that every BBS troop apply to their local BSA organization for membership. Some troops under a Colonel Masterman accepted this. The BLB for its part negotiated with the BSA, but after protracted negotiations in 1926 finally decided to join with the Boys' Brigade which shared their religious focus. Relatively few BBS troops appeared to have joined the BSA.

Remnants Albert Jones Knighton replaced Vane as head of the BBS in England. He maintained contacts with the Australian BBS, a few troops of which survived until the late 1930s. The American Boy Scout after Hearst was run by little known leaders became a military organization under the new identity of the United States Boy Scout (USBS). Protracted litigations with the Boy Scouts of America followed. The USBS by 1919 became the U.S. Junior Military Forces Inc. Cater's BBS in South Africa refused to join with Baden-Powell's BSA and became the Naval Cadets. The French Scouts had evolved into the Eclaireurs de France. Most other BBS troops in the British dominions were adsorbed by the Scout groups affiliated with Baden-Powell's BSA. The Order of World Scouts has never entirely vanished, but only survived in Britain with a small membership abroad.

Current Status Some Scouting organizations continue under the affiliation of the Order of World Scouting. The Scouts of Australia are an independent Scouting organization founded in 1986. They were incorporated in 1988 as the Independent Scouts of Australia Incorporated, but changed their name to the Scouts of Australia in 1992. They contacted the BBS in 1991. This provided a spur to revive the fortunes of the present Order of World Scouts. The Order of World Scouts is the oldest alliance of Independent Scout organizations.

Other Alliances There are other international alliances of more recent origin; the breakaway Baden-Powell Scouts Association in England founded in 1971 has promoted some international Scout affiliations.

The FSE has sponsored an international federation of European Scouts.

References Tim Jeal, Biography on Baden-Powell (Hutchinson: London, 1989) pages 408, 428 and 544).

David I Macleod, Building Character in the American Boy, University of Wisconsin Press, 1983, page 147.

Recent edit
User Scolaire deleted material from this page which is informative and valuable. I am undoing his deletion accordingly. The material links this page to Francis Sheehy-Skeffington's page, and one of Vane's chief claims to fame is his righteous role in the story of Sheehy-Skeffington's murder.Wwallacee (talk) 08:09, 11 April 2016 (UTC)


 * And therefore this article should link to the Sheehy-Skeffington article. Which it does. What I removed was a hatnote that said "For the murder exposed by Major Sir Francis Fletcher Vane, see Francis Sheehy-Skeffington". That's like having a hatnote on the George W. Bush article saying "For the Tyrant opposed by George W. Bush, see Saddam Hussein". It's silly and pointless, and not what hatnotes are meant for. I recommend adding a short sentence on the Sheehy-Skeffington murder to the lead. Scolaire (talk) 08:27, 11 April 2016 (UTC)


 * You "recommend" - why don't you do instead? Scolaire, the proper action if you feel that material needs improvement is not to remove said material, but to improve it. [Redacted] Wwallacee (talk) 08:41, 11 April 2016 (UTC)


 * If a thing doesn't belong in an article, then it can't be improved. The hatnote didn't belong. It could not be improved, only removed. Scolaire (talk) 09:20, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

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