Talk:Sirindhorn

Rumours
Rumours have no place in wikipedia entries. I have removed the reference to her being lesbian (based on Paul Handley's publication of Thai rumour mills). -Salapao Salapao 19:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * A rumor is when the source has no obvious access to the information provided, or when there are several steps between the immediate source and someone who might actually know. ("My pork satay girl found out from her hairdressor, who has a cousin who clean floors at the palace...") Handley sourced this information to "palace insiders." That's no different from The New York Times citing "a White House source" or "a source close the secretary of state." I think what you really mean is that it could be libel. In that case, Phra Thep should sue Handley. That she prefers women is the logical explanation of why she never got married. It is also possible that doesn't want to compete for the throne with her brother, who is said to be quite violent, or that she just never found Mr. Right. But her statement to Thai television suggests that her martial status is her own free choice. Kauffner 15:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * "That she prefers women is the logical explanation of why she never got married (...) or that she just never found Mr. Right", "(...) her brother is said to be quite violent (...)".
 * Without a personal relationship with someone who did not get married, the only acceptable "logical" explanation one could find is that they did not find the right person and or that they do not find marriage to be mandatory for a healthy relationship. Interpreting a lack of marriage as a hint at homosexuality is disrespectful to persons of a homogenous and heterogenous sexual nature. It is ironic that you would educate the commenter about libel, while spreading libelous speculation yourself. lmaxmai (talk) 15:55, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

moves
Please consult Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Thailand-related articles)

Arrigo please do not remove renaming tags if the voting has not been over. Also please stop moving pages unilaterally if the naming is controversial and wait for the end of the discussion. What you are doing is in clear violation of Wikipedia rules and Wikiquette, please abide and participate in discussion properly. Gryffindor 14:35, August 26, 2005 (UTC)


 * per Wikipedia´s rules of naming royalty, this article needs to be renamed. no mention of her royal title is disrespectful. Antares911 12:05, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Oppose. That's sycophantic. No less than can be expected from Antares. 217.140.193.123 21:23, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Readers may be interested in to know that User:Antares911 above is the former username of User:Gryffindor (also above). 217.140.193.123 20:42, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Oppose, keep at simple name, same as for western royals where titles are only added for disambiguation. andy 21:32, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Oppose. For surety, I hereby confim my opposition to this move proposal. Arrigo 23:52, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. violet/riga (t) 10:12, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

The notorious Antares911/Gryffindor had requested that Maha Chakri Sirindhorn be moved to either Princess Maha Chakri Sirindhorn of Thailand, Maha Chakri Sirindhorn, Princess of Thailand, Maha Chakri, Princess of Thailand or Princess Maha Chakri Sirindhorn. I among others oppose such moves. As can be read above, the requests received opposition and the poll went stale. Requests denied. Arrigo 12:27, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Royal succession
Some recent debate in the King Bhumibol article showed that there is quite a bit of confusion about the rules behind the royal succession. It is thus suggested that the following note be added to this article: "Princess Sirindhorn's only brother, Prince Vajiralongkorn, was given the title "Somdej Phra Boroma Orasadhiraj Chao Fah Maha Vajiralongkorn Sayam Makutrajakuman" on 28th December 1972, making him the Crown Prince and Heir Apparent to the throne. In 1977, Princess Sirindhorn was given an equivalent title, "Sayam Makutrajakumari".  The constitution was later ammended to allow for a "daughter of the king" to succeed to the throne, but only in the absence of a male heir apparent.  Although this effectively signalled Princess Sirindhorn as unofficially second in line to the throne., it did not give her equal status in terms of royal succession to the Prince." Patiwat 10:13, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Giving the titles only creates confusion, since they have nothing to do with succession. The 1974 to 1997 constitutions allowed for female succession, which suggests that Sirindhorn was second in line to the throne at that time. The Interim (2006) constitution doesn't say anything about succession, so legally the issue is up in air until a permanent constitution is drafted. As a practical matter, the Privy Council will come up with a name when a vacancy arises. Sometimes you read about rivalry between crown prince and Sirindhorn, but I think the order of succession is settled at this point: Vajiralongkorn is heir apparent, his son Dipangkorn is second in line, and Sirindhorn is third. Kauffner 14:10, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The matter is *not* settled, that is one of the main 'behind the curtains' reasons for the fighting, including the coup in 2006, after Thaksin made clear indications which sibling he was supporting - hint: Not the amongst poor people popular [female] choice. This article does however completely ignore her actual high status amongst the population, for some reason. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.164.236.2 (talk) 10:35, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Succession line
According to the Constitution, when the Throne is vacant and there is a crown prince, the Council of Ministers will inform the National Assembly of the matter and the Assembly's President will then put the crown prince on the Throne, pursuant to the Constitution, section 23, paragraph 1, which provides:

"'ในกรณีที่ราชบัลลังก์หากว่างลง และเป็นกรณีที่พระมหากษัตริย์ได้ทรงแต่งตั้งพระรัชทายาทไว้ตามกฎมณเฑียรบาลว่าด้วยการสืบราชสันตติวงศ์ พระพุทธศักราช ๒๔๖๗ แล้ว ให้คณะรัฐมนตรีแจ้งให้ประธานรัฐสภาทราบ และให้ประธานรัฐสภาเรียกประชุมรัฐสภาเพื่อรับทราบ และให้ประธานรัฐสภาอัญเชิญองค์พระรัชทายาทขึ้นทรงราชย์เป็นพระมหากษัตริย์สืบไป แล้วให้ประธานรัฐสภาประกาศให้ประชาชนทราบ'"

"'In the event that the Throne becomes vacant and the King has appointed the Heir to the Throne in pursuance of the Palace Law on Succession, Buddhist Era 2467 (1924), the Council of Ministers shall refer the matter to the President of the National Assembly. The President of the National Assembly shall convoke the National Assembly for the purpose of acknowledging the matter. He shall then invite the Heir to the Throne to ascend to the Throne as a new King, and inform the public of the enthronement.'"

Only when the Throne is vacant without any crown prince, the Privy Council will name as an heir to the throne any member of the royal household under the Palace Law on Succession, Buddhist Era 2467 (1924)  and submit the name of the heir to the Council of Ministers who will forward it to the National Assembly. In this case, the Privy Council may name one of the King's daughters as an heir to the throne. As the Constitution, section 23, paragraph 2, prescribes:

"'ในกรณีที่ราชบัลลังก์หากว่างลง และเป็นกรณีที่พระมหากษัตริย์มิได้ทรงแต่งตั้งพระรัชทายาทไว้ตามวรรคหนึ่ง ให้คณะองคมนตรีเสนอพระนามผู้สืบราชสันตติวงศ์ตามมาตรา ๒๒ ต่อคณะรัฐมนตรีเพื่อเสนอต่อรัฐสภาเพื่อรัฐสภาให้ความเห็นชอบ ในการนี้ จะเสนอพระนามพระราชธิดาก็ได้ เมื่อรัฐสภาให้ความเห็นชอบแล้ว ให้ประธานรัฐสภาอัญเชิญองค์ผู้สืบราชสันตติวงศ์ขึ้นทรงราชย์เป็นพระมหากษัตริย์สืบไป แล้วให้ประธานรัฐสภาประกาศให้ประชาชนทราบ'"

"'In the case that the Throne becomes vacant and the King has not appointed any Heir to the Throne according to paragraph 1, the Privy Council shall nominate an Heir to the Throne pursuant to section 22 to the Council of Ministers who shall forward the nomination to the National Assembly for further approval. In this respect, a King's daughter may be nominated for the Throne. Once the National Assembly approves the nomination, the President of the National Assembly shall invite the Heir to the Throne to ascend to the Throne as a new King and inform the public of the enthronement.'"

The Constitution, section 22, paragraph 1, reads:

"'ภายใต้บังคับมาตรา ๒๓ การสืบราชสมบัติให้เป็นไปโดยนัยแห่งกฎมณเฑียรบาลว่าด้วยการสืบราชสันตติวงศ์ พระพุทธศักราช ๒๔๖๗'"

"'Subject to section 23, the succession to the Throne shall be governed by the Palace Law on Succession, Buddhist Era 2467 (1924).'"

Section 9 of the ''Palace Law on Succession, Buddhist Era 2467 (1924)', incorporating section 23, paragraph 2, of the Constitution, lay down the line of succession in cases the Throne is vacant and the King does not name any heir to the throne as follows:


 * 1) First line: The firstborn child of the King and his principal wife → The firstborn child of the firstborn child of the King and his principal wife → Any of the children of the firstborn child of the King and his principal wife according to the rank of age.
 * 2) Second line: The second child of the King and his principal wife → The firstborn child of the second child of the King and his principal wife → Any of the children of the second child of the King and his principal wife according to the rank of age.
 * 3) Third line: blah, blah, blah....

So, I would like to say that, in any case, Sirindhorn is actually far from the Throne. Especially in the case the throne is vacant without any heir to the throne previously named, if her elder brother and his descendants are still alive, Sirindhorn would never be enthroned.

--Aristitleism (talk) 06:06, 6 December 2011 (UTC)


 * The princesses are not ordered officially, so perhaps it is more accurate to speak of them as "eligible for succession." Under primogeniture, she is fifth in line for the throne. If Bhumipol dies and Vajiralongkorn refuses the throne, you think the Privy Council will make Dipangkorn king? He is 6 years old now. As a practical matter, the Council can name whoever they like. It is informally understood that Sirindhorn is next in line after her brother. I added a Wikileaks comment by a Privy Council member to this effect. The king clearly intends for the crown prince to succeed. But there is a possibility that Parliament or the Thai people may reject him. Kauffner (talk) 06:28, 6 December 2011 (UTC)


 * In cases Vajiralongkorn refuses the throne, I think it is possible that Dipangkorn will be named king, but a regent will be appointed (maybe Queen Sirikit would assume regency once again for she will be the most senior and experienced member of the royal household after the king dies, unless she denies the post or dies together with the king). I know that the Privy Council (and many Thais) like Sirindhorn and would like to see her on the throne, but that will be possible only when Vajiralongkorn and all his descendants are not alive any more or all of them refuse the throne. Moreover, in the case the heir to the throne is already appointed, the National Assembly can only 'acknowledge' his status according to the current constitution (but the previous constitutions, such as 1932, 1946, 1949 etc, empowered the Assembly to approve or disapprove with the heir to the throne), unless the Assembly has any grounds for withholding its 'acknowledgement'. --Aristitleism (talk) 08:03, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Extremely popular princess
The article says that she is an "extremely popular princess." I agree that she is. However, saying that without a reference could leave the door open to anyone saying it looks POV. Actually, although I agree with the statement, it does look a bit like POV. Any suggeestion on how to fix that? Anagnorisis 19:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

How do you get reliable "sources" about the Thai Royal Family when almost no-one in Thailand talks openly about the Royal Family and would never print anything negative about them? "I've heard it whispered on the street" is as good a source since in many cases it's the only source available. How does Wikipedia deal with this. I've heard it whispered on the street that if HM the King only could make Phra Thep his heir, he would have abdicated years ago... but you'll never find it in print. This is an important insight into HRH's relationship with Thai hearts and minds, but how can Wikipedia make it known since there is no source?


 * Write an article, publish it or put it up on the Web somewhere, and than that can sourced here.
 * The kind of rumors you refer are certainly an indication of Sirindhorn's popularity, but I don't think they are at all plausible. The king could certainly make Sirindhorn his heir if that's what he wanted to do. The army is writing a new constitution now, so it could revise the succession rule any way the king wanted. When the Crown Prince had his most recent son in 2005, the king accepted it as legitimate, unlike the Crown Prince's previous children. If Sirindhorn wanted to be queen, she would have gotten married a long time ago. Her son would be an adult by now, able to defend her if the Crown Prince tried to point his gun at her again. But she's appearently happy where she is, with no desire to play palace politics. Kauffner 15:12, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Opening Paragraph
Isn't there any better way to discuss the princess' popularity than this convolutedly safe handling seen in the opening paragraph? The fingerprints of editing debate are too obvious in the way it appears. Perhaps any mention of her popularity should be left out of the opening to take place later in the article, rather than kicking off the article with a criticism of lese majeste. At very least i'm removing the word "stifling", as it would be just as difficult to gauge whether many thai's believe this to be so as it would to realistic assess a royal's popularity. All the qualifiers come off as POV even while trying to avoid doing so. Hope we can come up with something better!

okay, any objections to the current wording? (i still feel this should come later however; perhaps it's own section) - from peter.

Title
"Princess Sayam Borommaratchakumari" is apparently someone's do-it-yourself transliteration of Sirindhorn's Thai title. No other English language source uses it; Zero results in the Google News Archive. Take a look at the Bangkok Post. Their policy is "Her Royal Highness Princess Maha Chakri Sirindhorn" for first reference and "Princess Sirindhorn" for the short form. The editors there can be prosecuted if they get it wrong, so there is no question that this is official. Kauffner (talk) 09:42, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Order of the Seraphim
It seems unlikely that she would have received the Order of the Seraphim. The only foreigners that have been awarded that order since 1975 are heads of state and their equals (i.e. heirs apparent and consorts of monarchs). Other princely personages are awarded the Order of the Polar Star instead. It is more likely that she is a Commander Grand Cross of the latter order. Björn Knutson (talk) 20:21, 11 February 2014 (UTC)


 * There is a source for the appointment in the Swedish Wikipedia article about recipients of the Order of the Seraphim. Björn Knutson (talk) 11:42, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Need a bibliography section
Can someone please add a bibliography section on all her writings and translations?

These are some of the books she translated from Chinese, if anyone wants to use the info please do:

Unfortunately I'm not nearly a polyglot as her, so the other languages are beyond my linguistic abilities. :( Timmyshin (talk) 09:03, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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A unique honor
According to this article, Princess Sirindhorn has more species of living things named for her than any other person, even David Attenborough. Not sure how to insert this fact into this article but it's worth adding to this & the related articles, only 2 of which I've found mention her. -- llywrch (talk) 15:56, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Authorship of children's book
Apparently Sirindhorn has written a children's book, แก้วจอมแก่น = Kaew the Playful under the pseudonym แว่นแก้ว = Waen Kaew. I'm not sure to what extent there are independent reliable sources about the book (I haven't searched, not being able to read Thai), but information about it can be found on the publisher's (?) site. Google Books also has the English translation available in preview mode. Not sure where this would best go, but I would expect it to be discussed somewhere in the article. Umimmak (talk) 22:58, 27 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Seems like she's used other pseudonyms and written lots of books. More info on Thai Wikipedia: th:สมเด็จพระเทพรัตนราชสุดาฯ สยามบรมราชกุมารี and th:รายชื่อพระราชนิพนธ์ในสมเด็จพระเทพรัตนราชสุดาฯ สยามบรมราชกุมารี. Umimmak (talk) 23:55, 27 November 2018 (UTC)


 * This book already has an article in Chinese Wikipedia (zh:顽皮透顶的盖珥) --Thyj (talk) 04:29, 30 November 2018 (UTC)