Talk:Sivaya Subramuniyaswami

Request Deletion
This article is non-noteworthy and not even close to being accurate. The subject, Robert Hansen, was the founder of a very small cult that is Hindu by self-declared affiliation only. All citations are from the cult's own literature. They are not Hindu, and cannot be, as religions like Hinduism are part of a larger cultural heritage which Euro-Americans have no claim or authority. To suggest this organization is "Hindu" is white supremacy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.183.15.216 (talk) 17:52, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

A copy
This article is mostly copied from http://www.gurudeva.org/resources/books/lws/lws_about_the_author.html possibly by members of the organisation. Sfacets 06:48, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

That is correct. I am a representative of said organization. We authorized and posted the original text, and with our approval another member of our organization (Subramaniam) made many refinements. Forgive our unfamiliarity with issues of posting our own copyrighted material on Wikipedia. I am told we should post an appropriate copyright notice here on the talk page. Is that correct? Japendranatha 22:15, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Copyright permission allowing the text from www.himalayanacademy.com (an alias of which is www.gurudeva.org) to be reproduced here on Wikipedia can be found at http://www.himalayanacademy.com/info/copyright.html. Japendranatha 04:07, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * This copyright notice now allows content to be used under GFDL. Conscious 19:57, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The copyright release for Wikipedia's use of material under the GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) executed by Himalayan Academy is no longer available at:
 * https://www.himalayanacademy.com/info/copyright.html
 * It was apparently removed in 2012/2013. An archived copy is at:
 * https://web.archive.org/web/20061202044122/https://www.himalayanacademy.com/info/copyright.html
 * In pertinent part it read:
 * If the image or text is not copyrighted by another author or photographer, who has limited rights to our usage only, the following conditions apply:
 * Such image or text may be released for use on Wikipedia under the GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) and when thus posted on Wikipedia follows the terms of the GFDL.
 * Permissions are granted on a per-item, per-usage basis. Requests for permission should include the article or other text or image that is desired along with the context in and method by which it will be reproduced. Permission requests should be directed to permissions@hindu.org.
 * Permission for usage of a given item for a specific context does not constitute permission for use of other items.
 * Therefore, somewhere Wikipedia gnomes (lawyers) should have a copy of the specific permission given for the usage of this pre-May 2006 material. --Bejnar (talk) 21:50, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The OTRS note mentioned at the top of the talkpage should contain verification that the Himalayan Academy material was properly donated for use on wikipedia etc. However, as I mentioned at Talk:Pancha Ganapati, if the article is indeed largely based on such material, it would pose WP:RS and WP:NPOV issues since the Academy is the subject's organization, and the article may need to be tagged and reviewed. Abecedare (talk) 18:59, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Clean up
Sfacets, you mentioned in an edit summary, "this whole article is PR... needs a cleanup." What exactly do you mean by that? Japendranatha 04:15, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Gurudeva
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurudeva redirects to this page and I think that should be it's on page and include information on Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami as well as a link to this page. Gurudeva is an affectionate name for ones Guru

"The shining spiritual being who is the destroyer of darkness of ignorance." Part of the name of His Holiness Gurudeva Sivaya Subramuniyaswami. An affectionate, yet respectful term used to address the guru or spiritual master. www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/virtue/SVGlossary.html

http://www.answers.com/gurudeva

gurudeva is mentioned in the following topics:

Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami

Six Gosvamis of Vrindavan

Bhakti Dayita Madhav Goswami Maharaj

Bhaktivedanta Narayana Goswami

Bhakti Ballabh Tirtha Goswami Maharaj

Tirukural

Syama 05:13, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Since i did not receive a reply to my la~st post i have updated: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurudeva Syama 19:12, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

On 8 June 2008‎ Gurudeva properly became a disambiguation page. --Bejnar (talk) 21:50, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

conversion
People keep on deleting that the satguru is a Western convert to Saivism. It is a fact and should be reported. Even if you want to adopt a Saivite or Vaishnavite tradition, oftentimes, there may be within some sub-traditions as a conversion process. Ramanuja, for example, converted the Jain Hoyasala king to Vaishnavism.

It must be reported that he is a Western convert because some of satguru's views do not fall in line with many Hindu followers. In his conversion section on his book to become a Hindu, he states: "If he was confirmed or otherwise initiated in another religion or ideology, he must effect formal severance from his previous religion or faith before formally entering the Hindu religion through the the name-giving sacrament." from, How to become a Better Hindu, located at

http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/hbh/

Who made him an authority on what Hinduism is?

I have never heard of such a drastic procedure.

Also, a scholar of religion commentated about this group's phenemon in the New York Times: "Some critics question the temple's religious significance, saying Hinduism is a matter of birth and inheritance, not of spirituality. Saiva Siddhanta's founding guru and most of the monastery's monks are Westerners who adopted Hinduism. "It's sort of white people's Hinduism," said Lee Siegel, a professor of Indian religions at the University of Hawaii. "It doesn't say much about India or India and the Diaspora. It says something about people of my generation, George Harrison Hindus. Most Indians that I ask about the Hindu temple on Kauai say it's very nice. But in a real Brahminical sense, I don't think it can be taken seriously."

from a quote from the New York Times, at http://www.himalayanacademy.com/ssc/hawaii/iraivan/iraivan_in_the_news/

I respect Satguru but we have to accept who he is; this is after all an encylopedia.

Thanks,aa

Raj2004 01:17, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Rename
This article should be renamed to 'Sivaya Subramuniyaswami', taking away the unecessary 'Satguru' honourific - please discuss. Sfacets 05:21, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

conversion
One can access the on-line version of How to Become a Hindu at http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/hbh/. I would direct your attention to the list of endorsements by prominent Hindu leaders given at http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/hbh/hbh_reviews_comments.html.

As to the Iraivan temple, one can find a list of endorsements by prominent Hindu leaders at http://www.himalayanacademy.com/ssc/hawaii/iraivan/island_temple_magazine/isleTemple-04_35.pdf.

I would think their opinion of the temple would carry more weight than that of Prof. Siegel, who is not a Hindu and, though he lives just 120 miles from the Irivan temple, has never to our knowledge visited it. The temple receives thousands of Indian Hindu visitors every year, all of whom appear to regard it "seriously." Arumugaswami 22:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

"Who made him an authority on what Hinduism is?

I have never heard of such a drastic procedure."

You might wish to take a look at the conversions page of the Hindu Temple Society site, the organization that operates the Ganesha Devasthanam in Queens; it also mandates formal severance from all past teachers prior to conversion by namakarana. Kamandi

title
This is a good point. How does one get the entry name changed? Arumugaswami 22:24, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The Popes have the honorific in the Article Title. 67.52.81.242


 * Yes, because he is the head of the Cartholic Church. Is Sivayab Subramuniyaswami the head of Hinduism? There is already the honourific "smami" incorporated in his name. What's the concensus? Should this articles' title be shortened/renamed? Sfacets 04:40, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
 * He is the head of Saiva Siddhanta Church. 67.52.81.242 00:43, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Popes have their honorifics in the titles of their articles for the simple practical reason that most of them had names that are common to many people (John, Gregory, etc.) There is no need for this sort of disambiguation in the case of Sivaya Subramuniyaswami.&mdash;Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 07:40, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

"world's first Hindu church"
The article said, "He was one of Saivism's most orthodox and revered Gurus, the founder and leader of the Saiva Siddhanta Church, the world's first Hindu church." What does the phrase "the world's first Hindu church" mean? I have removed that phrase.&mdash;Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 01:17, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Not that I added that sentence, but a Hindu church is a Temple, but with chairs and a pew, similar to western churches. You sing hymns in repetive cants. A Hindu Temple has idolatry and you sit on the floor. You chant in both. The God is the same no matter where you pray, however. Parsh (talk) 12:43, 22 November 2012 (UTC)


 * This is not the meaning here. The Himalayan academy say "The name of our Hindu church is Saiva Siddhanta Church, meaning "sacred congregation of Supreme God Siva's revealed Truth.". In the Saiva Dharma Shastras it says:


 * ''"What is a church? First and foremost, a church is
 * a group of devout peop le who share the sameb eliefs.
 * A Church’s primary objectives are to preserve
 * the doctrines of faith and traditio n and
 * to serve the needs of the congregation. The clergy preserve theological
 * doctrine and teach it to members. Clergy and lay members together minister
 * to the needs of the congregation. This they do through sermons and
 * devotional services, through counseling for personal and family problems,
 * assistance offered in times of hardship, religious and secular education
 * for the youth, missionary work and spiritual, social and cultural events.
 * A church seeks to uplift
 * and guide its members in the fulfillment of all
 * four aspects of their life: spiritual, cultural, social and economic. Our
 * Saiva Siddhânta Church has through the grace of my satguru, the venerable
 * sage of Sri Lanka, Yogaswâmî, grown stronger and stronger through
 * the years in the fulfillment of the above-stated purposes"


 * Though I follow the Himalayan Academy (though not an official member) I think that this claim is largely meaningless, it has no more claim to be the "first Hindu Church" than many other organisations that fulfil all of above, for example Swaminarayan Sampraday, or Arya Samaj. All it means is its the first Samparadaya to call itself a church!-- Q Chris (talk) 13:31, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Requested move
As was mentioned above, the article's title currently includes the principal's honorific title, Satguru, which means "true guru". Although it can be difficult to separate the personal names of religious leaders from their titles, because the names often have a laudatory religious meaning, in this case, it appears that "Satguru" is disseverable, since the quote from Klaus Klostermaier refers to him simpy as "Sivaya Subramuniyaswami". Consensus on Wikipedia is to use the simpler and less adorned forms of names whenever possible. I suggest a move to Sivaya Subramuniyaswami&mdash;Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 01:25, 4 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Support move: I know just enough about this subject to concur; the article's title should be Sivaya Subramuniyaswami (currently a redirect) with a clear explanation of "Satguru" as his recognised title (and its meaning). Reading this talk page, I saw mention of articles on Popes with "Pope" in the article name.  One of the reasons this is acceptable is that Pope is a commonly recognised and understood term, whereas Satguru is not.  In this particular instance, it would be misleading to the average Western/English reader to leave it as it is.  A side benefit of the suggested move is that it becomes easier to link from other articles, ie Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami.   Maedin \talk 15:36, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Close dispute
I see no dispute open here anymore. Can we remove the tag from the article? Natha 67.52.81.242 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 22:14, 11 February 2009 (UTC).
 * Hi Natha, I'm not sure what you are referring to. There is no move tag on the article anymore.  There is only a section called Requested move, which should stay in place as a record of the move and the discussions that preceded it.  Mae din \talk 10:09, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, I mean the disputed content tag. What is credibly disputed in it? (I do not object to its need of being more Wikifyed as far as style goes.) Natha 67.52.81.242 (talk) 22:22, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Since no one replied to what disputed points remain in this article, I will remove the POV tag. The tag about the tone will remain. Natha 20:53, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not seeing much evidence of NPOV here. "A brilliant teacher and orator, Subramuniyaswami spoke eloquently about virtually every aspect of life"? O rilly? "Hinduism's propensity to take root in new soils and put forth new branches is a source of strength and glory."?? Puh-lease. Wikipedia's supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a directory of PR puffs and hagiography. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Imipak (talk • contribs) 20:55, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * POV refers to facts. The sentences Imipak quoted are not facts, just peacock terms and peacock writing. The article does need work, as the tone tag implies. Natha 20:18, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

No mention of Nevada?
I would think this article should mention the time in the Nevada ashram; the building was purchased in 1962 [from a modern painter, Zoray Andrus, who'd used the building as studio/home/school], occupied in 1963, most ashram functions shifted to Hawaii in 1970, but with printing still being done in NV until 1979. The building burned in 1983, before a sale of the property was complete. 69.227.143.204 (talk)jld —Preceding undated comment added 05:47, 11 July 2011 (UTC).

World religious parliament citation request
World religious parliament is a distinct organization from Parliament of the World's Religions whose website is here. The first is Hindu-centric with headquarters in New Delhi, where they did have an event in 1986 at which Sivaya Subramuniyaswami was honored at, as discussed in his own book "Living with Siva" here and in his New York Times obituary here. The PWR, on the other hand, has headquarters in Chicago and is by comparison more manifold in representation. As such, I have removed the citation needed tag from the introduction. Please advise if any issues. Best, Ramwithaxe talk 02:56, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Pancha Ganapati
Pancha Ganapati redirects here. But the page contains no mention of it. Do we want to go back to a separate page, or should we add something here? DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:44, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

On 2 January 2020, this article contained the following sentence In 1985, he created the festival of Pancha Ganapati as a Hindu alternative to December holidays like Christmas. with a citation to Hinduism Today. I have added a second citation, one to a third-party (one not affiliated with Sivaya Subramuniyaswami) source. --Bejnar (talk) 21:55, 28 May 2020 (UTC)