Talk:Ska punk/Archive 1

Refactoring
Is there any particular why this page describes all three waves of ska? This seems suitable for the main ska page instead, so I suggest the page is refactored and that the descriptions of the waves is merged with the main ska page.

BTW: R. Fiend, People are allways arguing about whether No Doubt is a ska band. Since they played ska before I think it's technically correct, though I think they should be removed as an example of ska punk since that'll just confuse people that have only heard their latest records. RuneFH 12:45, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Yeah, well ska punk is even more misleading than just ska, as most purists would call them neither ska nor punk; calling them both is too over the top, in the eyes of many. I, personally, don't care much. -R. fiend 17:59, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Ska punk is not a list of bands that are both ska and punk, rather it is a separate genre. Many of the bands in the ska punk genre are not considered either ska or punk by 'purists', that's why the genre exists. And what use have purists ever been, anyway? Terrafire 21:53, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Is this a sub-genre of Hardcore punk?
it is listed in template:hardcorepunk and template:hardcorepunkbox as being so. Paul foord 14:04, 31 July 2005 (UTC)


 * It is derived from hardcore punk, among other things, but has since developed beyond recognition. Listen to some of the earlier work of The Mighty Mighty Bosstones for some examples. 194.81.36.9 09:10, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Bad Brains
Bad Brains? there 80's hardcore like circle jerks or minor threat there not skacore at all

Although they DID write some ska, or was it reggae? I can't really tell the difference. --Swordthatsplitstheskull 07:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * It was reggae. They're not a ska band in the slightest. Ezenden 08:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Lists of bands
I've removed the lists of ska punk and ska-core bands. People were adding their favorite bands to it, and there's not exactly any sort of criterion for putting a band on it. —ShadowHalo 12:05, 3 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I didn't realize it, but at the same time you did that, I created a separate bullet list section, with a hidden editor's message telling people to only add bands that have Wikipedia articles showing they are famous or infludntial ska punk or ska-core bands.. I' and other editors can keep an eye on it to make sure the list doesn't get out of control, with every third-rate high-school ska-punk band being added. Spylab 12:15, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me. —ShadowHalo 13:04, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

adding to list
Dear Spylab, ShadowHalo, and other editors,

Agree totally with your criteria, and have tried to follow it in adding of my own (reference to Ska-P). However, when I added (band) to the name it doesn't link directly to the corresponding article (whereas without the (band) bit, the link is immediate. Sorry for not being more Wiki-literate, but maybe you could find time to help me out. Thanks. 83.191.27.36 01:41, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Ska-P doesn't have the word band after the article's title. I have fixed the link. Spylab 10:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * In the future, you can use Ska-P to create a link to the Ska-P page since "(band)" does not appear in the title. To link to the page for, say, Sublime, you would need to use Sublime (though typing '''  will generate that code automatically).  See Editing FAQ for more information.  —ShadowHalo 11:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Many thanks! 83.191.94.228 14:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Merging Ska punk with Ska-core
Skacore deserves its own article! Ska punk and skacore do not sound similar enough to group them into one article under one name. Screaming + hardcore influences = skacore. Punk guitar + upbeat/sarcastic lyrics = ska punk.--24.195.235.165 06:45, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The way I've always understood it is that ska punk is punk-influenced ska, whereas skacore is ska-influenced punk. Not a big difference, but a useful distinction to make. Why don't you write a skacore article? Terrafire 09:02, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I removed "or skacore" from the opening line of the article. As long as there are separate pages of skacore and ska-punk, it doesn't make sence to have ska punk and ska core both listed in this article. Rust In Peace 19 July 2006


 * It's getting obvious that nobody's going to expand this article or the ska-core article. It's silly to have articles that are just a few sentences. If they were combined, at least there would be some substance, and you could explain the differences between the two genres within the article.Spylab 14:51, 28 July 2006 (UTC)Spylab


 * The two articles should be merged, the difference between the two genres is far too vague and could just be seen as a different approach to the same style of music, whilst I do believe ska core could be a genre in its own right, I think it is primarily used as a method of differentiation certain ska punk bands, i.e. AAA, and others, i.e. Mustard Plug. The emo canaries 19:55, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Merged
I finally merged Ska-Core into Ska Punk, copying and pasting some of the content. It's rediculous to have a whole separate article for Ska Core, when there's hardly any content, and no full definition of what makes it different from Ska Punk.Spylab 18:13, 15 August 2006 (UTC)Spylab


 * I wish to shed some new opinion on this matter. I don't think ska-punk and ska-core should be merged articles. Ska-punk and ska-core are different offshoots of ska (third wave). Ska-core is also not always just plainly "screaming/hardcore" mixed with ska. The Mighty Mighty Bosstones were the first group to classify (thus inventing) themselves as a ska-core band and while their earlier albums had a slight hardcore sound, but if you listen to their albums (as well as other ska-core artists and albums) ska-core is a unique sound vs ska-punk. Cosecant 10:38, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * If you listen to Devil's Night Out (which I think was their first album), the influences sound more like heavy metal than hardcore. Shinji nishizono 16:15, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The article's already pretty short as it is, no reason to split it into two even shorter articles. If someone wants to create a ska-core section here and expand it until it merits an article, that would probably be okay though.  ShadowHalo 16:18, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I would like to see skacore (or ska-core if you prefer) be separate to ska-punk as they are 2 different genres, and both are a sub-genre of third wave ska. Skacore is not a sub-genre of ska-punk. A lot of skacore bands do not have any ska-punk influences whatsoever. Ska-punk has upstrokes in the music whereas skacore does not. veganfishcake 10:59, 6 March 2008

list of success
the second paragraph under History seems to just be a long running list of the various success that some of ska punk's main bands have achieved. does this information really belong here? other than adding length to the article, it doesnt seem to be very helpful. Also, is it necessary to list the instruments common to the genre when they're listed on the table to the right? Glassbreaker5791 19:46, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

No Doubt
No Doubt ska punk? I wouldn't classify them as either ska or punk, let alone both. -R. fiend 01:13, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * They're undoubtedly ska (at least "Spiderwebs" comes to mind), but I don't know why anyone would call them punk.


 * No Doubt have had a similar sound to many of the bands on the list, and as many of their songs are undoubtedly ska punk (Oi To The World, Total Hate etc.) and bands can appear in more than one genre, I think it makes perfect sense to include them in this list. Terrafire 21:51, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Why not just remove No Doubt references from the article? They're hardly a genre defining band and haven't contributed much to the development of ska or punk or the combination of the two. There are much more clear cut examples of ska, punk and ska-punk so using No Doubt as an example is just muddying the issue. Especially since, to the majority of readers, No Doubt are just a pop band.Shinji nishizono 12:47, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I removed them, and Streetlight Manifesto, since that sentence doesn't really need examples of bands anyway. I also did some other minor formatting adjustments.Spylab 13:10, 2 October 2006 (UTC)Spylab


 * Do we need the picture of No Doubt? Given their disputed status as a ska-punk band and the fact that, as far as I know, none of their hit songs have been ska-punk, is it worth illustrating the article with them? Shinji nishizono 01:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I added it because I think it's helpful to have a picture of at least one of the bands discussed. No Doubt's not the most representative, so if you can find a free picture of another band, please do replace the No Doubt one.  ShadowHalo 02:04, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


 * No Doubt was a ska-punk band. Just because Gwen Stefani and the rest of the band moved onto pop in later years, does not exclude them from this genre. -ARandomHeretic 12:35, 18 August 2007 (UTC)


 * While early No Doubt definitely could be classified as ska-punk I have a problem listing them as a prime example of the genre for a couple reasons. First, as Shinji nishizono pointed out none of their hits really exemplify the genre. Second, it's not so much that they had pop success with Tragic Kingdom, but they eliminated their entire horn line after the album came out and only used non-member horn players to tour with in order to play their older material. There are much better (if less well-known) bands that could be used as examples here. I see absolutely no reason to include No Doubt on this page.Vvibbert (talk) 21:55, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Response to proposed merge between Ska Punk & Third Wave Ska
If there is to me a merge between these two articles, it makes more sense to merge Third wave ska into Ska punk, because Ska punk has a more precise definition and has more substantial content. Third wave ska is more of a wishy-washy term with disagreements about what it really means. Spylab 02:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I would keep both separate. The third wave of ska refers to the re-emergence of ska acts in the late 80s and 90s. Not all of these were ska-punk. Bands like the Slackers (who sound more like 2-tone) or Hepcat (almost pure Jamaican ska) are part of the third wave but aren't ska-punk. It's worth keeping the separate section to emphasise that the third wave is a cultural movement rather than a single musical genre. Shinji nishizono 12:30, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps then make Ska-punk a section of Third Wave Ska. I see very little need for seperate articles, and generally see Ska-punk as a subtype of Third Wave ska. Thoughts? Dan, the CowMan 01:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I would definitely disagree with merging third wave ska into ska punk since there are third wave ska artists that wouldn't fit nearly as well in ska punk (for example, No Doubt). My impression is that third wave ska is defined based on the time period and ska punk is based on the actual specific stylistic influences.  I'm a bit hesitant to merge ska punk into third wave ska for the same reason; in the first line of third wave ska, it says that some groups took influence from jazz, which I don't think would make them ska punk.  But since there is such a large overlap, I wouldn't object strongly to merging ska punk into third wave ska.  —ShadowHalo 20:33, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think they should be merged at all. Spylab 15:22, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Ska Punk & Third Wave Ska should not be merged. Third wave is a time period and Ska Punk is a genre. There were a very large amount of Third Wave Ska bands which should not be classified as Ska Punk, though it is true that during the third wave, bands that didn't fit the trend of the third wave bands towards ska-punk were often referred to as trad-ska. Vvibbert (talk) 22:03, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Usefulness of this article
This is supposed to be an article about ska punk, not just a long list of bands. There's already an entry for that purpose:List of ska musicians. If there's not enough relevant information to fill more than a couple of sentences, then it should be merged with Ska-core or Third Wave Ska. Also, people should stop adding every single ska punk band they can think of, and only list bands that are important to the overall genre.Spylab 01:35, 5 June 2006 (UTC)spylab


 * I agree, it seems rather useless for an article to be just a list, and not a greatly useful one at that. I'm not sure whether all the 3rd wave articles should be merged though, maybe skacore could be described in this article as the terms are probably too interchangable to form seperate articles. Either way, all 3 (3rd wave, skacore and ska punk) seem to need some revision and addition.The emo canaries 02:14, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I deleted the list of bands and added a few "See Also" topics. Some of them include lists of ska punk bands anyway. And again, this entry needs more information about what ska punk actually is. Spylab 16:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)spylab

I've added some form of article, thought I doubt one night's sleep deprived typing will sort it out, if it's not appropriate/inkeeping with what people want remove it by all means, just thought I'd attempt putting some kind of framework in there for people to add to/edit.The emo canaries 05:51, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It was a good effort, but I edited it to make it more clear to read, and so it will be strictly factual. Spylab 14:24, 2 August 2006 (UTC)Spylab


 * Cheers, just one addition, I'm putting Op Ivy back in the 'emergence' section, I don't know to what extent they were influential in America, but they were hugely influential in the British scene, i.e. for Shootin' Goon, Duff Muffin and no doubt others, hope it's ok.The emo canaries 14:38, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Op Ivy is appropriate imho.Vvibbert (talk) 22:06, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Two tone
two tone is not really a 'fusion' of ska and punk, and two tone bands are definitely not the first ska punk bands, as the article previously implied. ska punk / ska core is an offshoot of third wave ska in the same way reggae is an offshoot of old ska; they are totally separate genres, but one heavily influenced the other. ska punk is more punk than ska anyway, so should really be considered more of an offshoot of punk than as a fusion of the two. regardless, ska punk =/= third wave ska.


 * 2 Tone is most definitely a fusion of ska and punk rock. The main 2 Tone band, The Specials started off playing some ska songs and some punk songs. Then they decided to combine the two genres to create a new style of music. The 2 Tone sound is based on this. Ska punk is part of the Third-wave of ska, not separate from it. The sound has changed since the first post-2 Tone bands, but it is still part of the third wave, which is a time period (and to a lesser extent a certain style).Spylab 12:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab

alright, keep the two-tone being a fusion of ska and punk rock maybe, but it is more of a 90 parts ska to 10 parts punk mix, and saying that bands such as the specials and the toasters are ska punk is completely ridiculous, they are two tone ska. ska punk is a bastardisation of third wave ska, far more punk than ska, and it is definitely not an evolution of the ska genre, which is being carried on by bands like the slackers. just because you like a band you shouldn't try to fit them somewhere they don't belong. i enjoy streetlight and other such ska punk bands, but even they themselves call themselves punk rock in their album sleeve, if you care to look. let the bands define themselves, don't define them for them.


 * The calculation of 90 parts ska and 10 parts ska is your opinion, but is hardly academic. Also, nowhere in the article is the claim the The Specials are ska punk. The article says they are 2 Tone, which was a undeniably big influence on ska punk. Feel free to improve the article, but make sure it's based on verifiable facts and not point of view.Spylab 00:28, 5 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab

by definition a fusion of ska and punk rock would be ska punk, so the article does basically claim that all two tone bands are in fact ska punk and that two tone is pretty much a defunct article used to describe a time period and nothing else.


 * Yes, 2 Tone is a fusion of ska and punk rock. That's an undeniable fact. However, what is now commonly known as "ska punk" sounds different than the 2 Tone bands. I'm not sure what you want the article to say differently, but go ahead and improve it if you can word it so it's still factually correct. It's impossible to talk about ska punk without mentioning the influence of 2 Tone.Spylab 17:40, 5 September 2006 (UTC)Splab

I think the main point is to make the distinction that while two tone was indeed the first fusion of ska and punk, it is not actually considered ska-punk. Glassbreaker5791 19:50, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I think what you all are missing here is the shift of punk music from late 70's to the mid 90's. Punk in the 70's was not nearly as hard as it has become since the 80's and 90's. Listen to the guitar tones of the Clash or Ramones and compare them to later Bad Religion or Propagandhi. They became much more saturated over time. The drumming also becomes much tighter and to a certain extent faster and definitely more syncopated than its 70's punk counterparts. So naturally a blend of punk and ska in 1995 is going to portray the changes in punk as much as it does the changes in ska over twenty years. Though I wouldn't consider myself an expert in 2 Tone I did grow up on what we called ska-core which currently redirects here to ska-punk, which I think we should change. In my mind, 2 tone is the broader category, of which ska-punk (such as Mephiskapholes or early Johnny Socko) is a more narrow subset, and then ska-core (The Blue Meanies) would be an even more narrow subset. Genres are not mutually exclusive. For instance, I would consider The Blue Meanies to be most specifically a ska-core band, but also a ska-punk band, or even a two-tone band. For that matter you could also say they were just a ska band or if you wanted to be vague a rock band.Vvibbert (talk) 21:41, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I feel like ska-core should have its own page because of the additional influence of hardcore metal in addition to punk. Currently the articles says that ska-core is the synthesis of hardcore punk and ska. This becomes problematic to me as hardcore punk is itself the synthesis of hardcore metal and punk. Ska-core does indeed pull from punk as well but in my mind the main synthesis is between hardcore metal and ska. I realize these are fine points and definitely think we should work on the broader issues but I'm curious as to how all of you feel about it. Vvibbert (talk) 21:41, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Can anyone give an example of a supposedly "punk" song done by the Specials or any other Two Tone band? I can't see 2Tone and ska Punk* as being directly related at all, aside from a shared fan-base. --71.194.236.53 (talk) 15:55, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The Specials official website includes the sentence "Enter stage left The Specials, with their infectious mixture of ska, reggae and punk rock...." If you disagree that there is a punk influence on The Specials and 2 Tone, then perhaps you should take it up with them.Spylab (talk) 22:18, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

brass instruments
The article mentions saxophones as being a brass instrument, however, they are actually woodwinds.--75.2.208.35 (talk) 01:06, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Skunk Rock redirects here?
I can't understand why a search for "skunk rock" ends up redirecting to this page. "Skunk rock" was a short-lived subgenre which grew out of British indie music, which took its influences from the late 80's indie-dance "baggy" music scene (especially the Happy Mondays) and added a laid-back psychedelic feel. There is no relation to ska whatsoever, and the only relation to punk comes from the fact that most British indie music was informed by the post-punk scene.

I can only assume that this redirect is a mistake. It is factually incorrect, and misleading to anyone searching for the term. I suggest that it be fixed as soon as possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.30.179.199 (talk) 01:31, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Leningrad
Why was the reference to the band Leningrad deleted? I suspect it may have been purely because they are Russian. This seems ridiculous as it referenced their Wikipedia page, and the band have sold millions, making them one of the most commercially successful ska punk bands to date. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.152.42.171 (talk) 13:17, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Anything Goes (Maki Ohguro)
The reference is right here on wikipedia. The references linked in that article are in japanese however because the song is japanese. As you can see, the genera section of the infobox says Ska Punk on it which is how I found this page in the first place. but you can always listen for yourself if you don't trust it and if you like it, be sure to buy the CD142.136.169.18 (talk) 00:56, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Streetlight Manifesto?
Can someone throw a reference to them in somewhere? Everyone is always calling them the "poster children of the third wave". I think they're relevant enough to include, even just in passing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.175.119.76 (talk) 19:04, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

"Ska Tune Network" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Ska Tune Network. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. signed,Rosguill talk 18:10, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Mr Bungle
While Mr. Bungle may have some Ska influence, Patton & Co are definitely not a Ska Punk commercial success with this iteration. Including this band in the same list as bands like the Mighty Mighty Bosstones, and Sublime is entirely unfitting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.102.4 (talk) 23:32, 4 January 2021 (UTC)