Talk:Skanderbeg/Archive 1

Correction
Iskander-bey does not mean General Iskander, subsequently changing in Skanderbeg, rather, Lord Alexander. If he did have the title Musir as you suggest, then that would be a separate title from his name.

Title
The article states that Skanderberg was appointed "general" by the Ottomans. Would it be correct to replace this with "Müşir", or was their another such contemporary rank in the Ottoman army at the time? siafu 02:29, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Iskenderbey I guess you could put that since he was appointed by Turks the word is of some significance. However the english term should be right on it. He was probably given the title "Bey" after he was given Kruja.

Whoever changed the intro recently. Thanks for the original Turkish title but could you please post your info before you make changes. Thanks!

I found a nice image here. Its the area under the control of Scanderbeg, German map. This is areound the time of his death in 1468 []

Iskenderbey

Removal
I removed this section from the article:

Curiosa
Skanderbeg is founder of Castriota Scanderbeg family which is today part of Italian nobility.

For starters, this is apparently written by someone who has difficulty with English; what does "Curiosa" mean? Is there a reference or source on this claim? What is the relevance of this claim? If it's notable, it should probably be able to be developed beyond just one sentence, or else merged in somewhere else; we don't need a section (with its own heading) that is just one ambiguous and difficult to understand sentence. siafu 18:39, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Revisions made to this article are based on the following evidence
A. This evidence was placed either (i)as footnotes to the new additions or (ii)as links in the external links sections.


 * Kastrioti Family Genaology states that his acestor was Branilo, a Serb
 * Page scanned from an English book showing the crest of the Kastrioti together with other contemporary Serb noble families
 * Albanian Intenret Association: Skenderbeg quotes by Albanian and Western academics regarding Skenderbeg's ethnicity

B. Also added was the section: "Quotes by Academics on Skenderbeg's ethnicity":

Quotes by Academics on Skenderbeg's ethnicity:

Count Leopold Ranke: "In Albania, a prince of Serb origin, George Kastriotovoitch Skenderbeg, fought the Turks with great valour as the prince of Albania".

Paul Rovinski: "...in the time of national awakening for the Albanians - Skenderbeg was as much of a Serb as he was an Albanian...in him there was much Serb blood. His mother Vojislava was a Serb princess and the names of most of Skenderbeg's sisters were Serb...Mara, Jela, Angelina, Valica and his brothers were: Stanisa, Konstantin. Skenderbeg's sister Mara was married to Stefan Crnojevic, lord of Zeta, who with the Zetans helped Skenderbeg for 24 years in the wars against the Turks. According to the Catholic priest of Shkodra Marin Barleci, the Turks unearhed Skenderbeg's remains and distributed them amongst themsleves 'as amulets".

L. Diefenbach: "''Skenderbeg's family was of Serb descent" and married to Danica daughter of Vojvoda Golem. (golem is an old Slav word, meaning "great".'')

Teodoro Spanduci: "Skenderbeg, a personally brave man was of Serb descent and was so useful, that he was respected by the Albanians, as well. He was the son of Ivan Kastrioti. His mother was Vojislava, daughter of the Prince of Polog."

Fatos Lubonja: "I told of how the Albanians have forgotten that Skenderbeg was a Slav. I was attacked by Ismail Kadare." * 1.

Kaplan Resulli: "Lets mention, as well, at this opportune time only Georgi Kastriot ­ Skenderbeg, of an undeniable Slavic ancestry..."* 1.

C. Also added was the section "Sources":

History of the Servian People 1848 Leipzig, Germany Count Leopold Ranke

Paul Rovinski Russian emmisary and historian quoted from: "Glas Crnogorca" 1899

L. Defenbah "Zeine Familie War Slavishen Ursprungs" Brlin, Germany 1895

Teodoro Spanduci 16th century Italian quoted by: P. Rovinski see: above source for Mr. Rovinski

I could not find a good historical source for the genealogy of Kastriot family. However, I would like to point out that John Kastriot had four sons of which two have christian calendar names (Constantina and George) while two have Slavic (one could even say Serbian, since he was a noble of Serbian state)names - Stanisha and Reposh, both of which were quite usual at the time and Stanisha still is a common name amongst Serbs. I am quoting this from Konstantin Jiretschek and his works. Furthermore, let's not forget that John Kastriot donated villages to Hilandar, the Serbian monastery on Mt Athos, in 1426 although he had many other monasteries much closer. The photo of the diploma can be seen in Spomenik SAN nr. 45 (1942) or some other more available source. Mind you also that John Kastriot planed to be burried after his death in Hilandar and that Skenderbeg's brother, Reposh was burried there. Above his grave are painted St. George, St. Simeon Nemanja (the founder of the Serbian Nemanjic dynasty) and St. Sava (the founder of independent Serbian church). The inscription is in Serbian. A third point is that all of the documents published by Skenderbeg were either in Latin, Italian or in Serbian. None are in Albanian. But all of this doesn't mean that he wasn't and isn't an Albanian hero. We should just acknowledge that he was of diferent origin and clearly had different views on what he is than the present day Albanians.

24.90.102.133 23:14, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)  It is not your place ,Highduke, to assume something based on a disputed origins. This place was not created to serve your Greater Serbiadreams. He never stated that he was a Serb, however he himself was offended when the Prince of Tarranto said that Albanians were like sheep stating "you think of us with insults". Can you find any links where he has called himself a Serb? Sources at that? The Neutral Point of View, states that he fought for Albania. Look for nearly all other encyclopedia sources. We know of who he alligned with. There was only 1 serb tribe in there, and actually, it was a Montenegrin one. Multiple encyclopedias here here stated Albanian origins, A whole biography here, which you can read the whole thing of instead of selective quotes, stated Albanian origins. His own letter to the Prince of Taranto here, states his Albanianess in an era where nearly all of Albania, had been for a long time, part of the Despot of Epirus, along with a whole country study article here also mentions the Castrioti as a ruling family of Albania. The Byzantine eagle was being used by nearly all the Albanian ruling families of Albanian origins, Castriota seems to be no exception... On your "serb nobility" page it does not specify. All it says is Nobility. Care to go illustrate? What is interesting however is the same page I have, an italian heraldic source, shows the icon of "Kastriotich" which was on your page, however this heraldic source states that he was of Albanian origins.

And your Branilo of Ionnina seems to be conflicting. The actual Ioannina page here makes no mention of a Branilo as ruler, here is the closest to a Serb ruler I could get

"Ioannina in 1367 acknowledges Thomas Prelubovich as its ruler. His rule is to be extremely tyrannical as he persecutes and taxed the popularion, exiles the metropolitan and confiscates church property, which, he allegedly distributes among his Serb followers. Against his dismal regime, it would seem that the Albanians of Ioannina ask fot the protection of the Albanian chieftains with strongholds in Epirus. This starts the Albanian raids against Ioannina which lead the Despot Thomas to repair and renovate the fortness of Ioannina in 1375. In 1384, the tyranny of Thomas Prebulovich comes to an end."

The whole article, however, does make several mentions of Albanian presence in the area. But not of Branilo...

Yet another source here makes no mention of a Branilo, but once again does make mention of a Thomas Prilioubovitch as the tyrant. Branilo was clearly a mistake on part of the geneology page.

On top of this we also have a village going by the name Kastrati in Albania and Southern Serbia between the Albanian border, a village that has been around the area called Malesi e Madhe. Of which Kastriot is a common last name. However I could not find the samething about Castriotich.... On top of this, Kastrioti is recognized as the actual name of Scanderbeg throughout the world. Not Kastriotis or Kastriotich.

''"Marin Barleti traces the Kastrioti origin in Aemethia (modern Mati). In the contrary, in a chronicle from Ragusa (modern Dubrovnik), in the basis of old documents by P.Lukari (1605) and a bosniac collection published by E.Fermenxhim, tells us that the Kastrioti origin is from Hasi, were according to them there was a village named Kastrat (Castrati)." ''


 * All contributors to discussion, please sign "~" and indent. It's impossible to follow when you're all just starting where the last left off. siafu 23:08, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Dispute
Perhaps an RfC is in order. It seems obvious that both sides in this dispute are able to produce a good deal of sourced information, and are both deeply committed to their side. It's time for a third option of some sort. siafu 22:11, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Highduke, you should have taken out of the internet your Greater Serbia Project page before posting here, lol.

Skanderbeg's ancestry
The genealogy is posted as a link and as part of the article. Stop trying to delete information just because it doesn't suit your biase.

--- The info is flawed. As stated. Branilo was not the ruler of Ioannina so that already makes the info flawed. Unless you can bring up a proper arguement against what I showed then stop changing it. A clearly flawed geneology page has not place in this article.

Actually, since you are blind to arguements around you. Here are what Greek sources say about Ioaninna in that era;

Lets check this source; "Ioannina in 1367 acknowledges Thomas Prelubovich as its ruler."

then;

This starts the Albanian raids against Ioannina which lead the Despot Thomas to repair and renovate the fortness of Ioannina in 1375. In 1384, the tyranny of Thomas Prebulovich comes to an end. The rule of the city is taken over by his widow, Maria Angela Paleologue. In 1386, against the threat of Albanian tribal chiefs, Buondelmonti is proclaimed despot of the city, bringing back the metropolis to its seat and implementing a wise administration of the population.

Thissource states;

In 1367 the Serb Thomas Prilioubovitch became the new overlord of Ioannina and after him the city surrendered to the Italians Isau Buandelmonti (1385-1411) and Carlo I Tokko (1411-1430).

This source(In Greek) states; ''" Η τυραννική δεσποτεία του Θωμά Πρελούμποβιτς λήγει με την δολοφονία του και αναλαμβάνει την εξουσία της πόλης η χήρα του, Μαρία Αγγελίνα Παλαιολογίνα." ''

It states that the rule of Thomas comes to an end and control of the area falls to his wife. And once again after that the same names come up. Carl I Toco and Isau Buandelmonti. Never any mention of Branilo.

I will not repeat what is written above. Check the sources on top. My arguement agianst your sources is very much a valid one. Sorry Highduke, its not me thats biased. it seems you are however, you are not going at this neutrally. You completely ignore my counter arguement. I stated the geneology page can be placed with a disclamer if you really want it. The Kastoria comment is sourceless and completely assumed and the nobility page says nothing about serbs...

I ask admins to watch this page as the person posting this info is not giving proper arguements. Rather, he changes the info based on what suits his purpose. Should he continue with this, I ask that he be blocked from the article.

IskanderBey 17:47, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Tomas Preljubovic and Branilo Kastriotic
1. Preljubovic was a governor of Epirus. So what? Branilo Kastriota, great grandfather of Skenderbeg was a minor noble. There were many administrators in feudal bureaucracy. What you don't understand can fill a whole book about Skenderbeg. Branilo was a minor noble in Preljubovic's administration. Face it.

2. Besides, his geneology states that the Kastriota were a Serb family who had distinctive Serbian names and marrird EXCLUSIVELY to Serb nobility. Not Bulgarian and not with Greek nobles.

3. Sources that don't mention Skenderbeg's Serbian origin are irrelevant because they only mention Skenderbeg's father and do not go into the Kastriota geneology. They are incomplete and lacking in important info; thus they are irrelevant.

________

1.-There is no mention of Branilo. At all. Read the Heraldic source. it clearly states that with certainty, Scanderbeg's family starts with his father. Any other is speculation. Where did this Branilo source come from? Also sorry Highduke, even your sources go against what you now claim; "Governatore di Jannina nel 1368." This is a year after Thomas took over.... So now suddenly Thomas gets overthrown and replaced by him, and very quickly(almost unnoticably) takes power again....

"Preljubovic was a governor of Epirus."

No, NOT the governor of Epirus. Governor or Ioaninna(Jannina). Which contradicts the geneology page's claim. Ill have to email them a letter in Italian telling them to correct their info.

2.-Scanderbeg's wife was an Albanian, she has the name Arianiti in her. Plus nobody denies that he had Serb ancestry in him through his mother. Serbs were also the higher classes then. However Scanderbeg's action and words are what matter. And they never stated anything having to do with Serbs. Nothing. Plus ALbanians are a people that get influenced easily. After the Ottomans took over and ALbanians were forced to conform, they started taking up the names of their past dreaded enemies. There was never any real Turkish colonial presence in ALbania but you still find names.

3. They are relevent because as stated, they go on by proven things. Not assumed. There is no mention of a Branilo anywhere is actual Scanderbeg records. Actually there was! Except it was his nephew....Except he was renamed Hamza as he turned to the Ottoman army and betrayed his uncle after he got jelouse that his uncle had a son by the name of John(Gjon) Kastrioti. Following an Albanian tradition of naming your son the name your grandfather had.....Branilo then realized he was not going to be able to gain the throne after Scanderbeg and went to the Ottoman side. But this is all in here.... IskanderBey 14:54, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

From Skenderbeg's genealogy:

Kastriota genaology

Branilo (+ assassinato a Jannina nel 1379 circa), di origine serba, Governatore di Jannina nel 1368. Sposa N.N.

Giovanni (+ ca. 1443), Signore di Mat (confermato 1471) e di Vumenestia 1406/1438. Voisava Tripalda, figlia del signore serbo di Polog

Furthermore:

Skanderbeg had five sisters named: Marica, Valica (serbian: "little wave" val-wave; ica-femenine deminutive),

Angelina, Jela (serbian: "female deer"; jelen-male deer) and Maria.

He had two brothers: Stanisha (contemporary Serbian name, from the word stani-to stand) and

Reposh (serbian: rep-tail, archaic Serb-Vlach name).

The Italian genaology also states that Stanisa named his son Branilo, after his great-grandfather. Two of Skenderbeg's sisters, Valica and Maria were married to the Serb Crnojevic and Balsa rulers of Montenegro, according to the genaology

Get a new arguement!
I have already proven the unnofficial geneology page wrong with offical Greek history sites on Ioannina. It is wrong. Plus have the page is filled with your assumptions "was likely killed by..." sorry this stuff is not toletarate. This is your false assumption. Scanderbeg has already stated himself as an Albanian in his own letter. The Geneology page is assumed as Scanderbeg's family officially starts with John Kastrioti. Enough with repeating yourself, either learn to debate what I brought to you by getting other sources that can back up Branilo's existance(since that is wrong on who he was) or just stop now. Names are of no help as I already stated that his mother was Serbian. Those can easily be named by her. The other yes, however what does marriage say when Scanderbeg himself married an Albanian(with "Arianiti" in her name). What you are doing is wrongfully assuming based on nothing more then an unofficial geneology page and a few names. It does not change what Scanderbeg himself stated of his family. Now enough, I have reported what you are doing in this article. IskanderBey 16:55, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Lets not forget!
However change the "Page scanned from an English book showing the crest of the Kastrioti together with other contemporary Serb noble families" '''as it says nothing about Serb nobility. All it says is Nobility and the number 25. Also you have not provided any sources as to the origins of this supposed heraldry page. How do I know it's real and that you didnt fake it? Not to mention the page is linked to what is possibly one of the most ridiculous and propagandical webpages on the net. Please provide credible sources as to the origins of this scan. '''

--

Branilo Kastrioti did not exist as there is no mention of him in these Greek sources;

http://www.ioannina.gr/istoria.htm

http://6dim-ioann.ioa.sch.gr/en_poli_istoria.htm

http://ioannina.uoi.gr/_en/history/byzantine_period.html

'''Thomas Prelubovich(sp?) was the ruler of Ioannina in that era. Not Branilo.

The mistake was made in a 19th century Serbian book that mentions Branilo i Kastriot in the South Albanian castle of Kanina. However the transcription did not include "Branilo i Kastrioti"( i = and in Serbian, right? ) but Branilo Kastrioti. This mistake was seen and corrected in the two books Zwei Urkunden aus Nordalbanien by Thallozcy and Illyrische-albanischen Forschungen by Sufflay. Unfortunately, these literary sources are not easy to find and such info lingers on the internet. '''

---

Add this article by a Slav author by the name of Antonina Zhelyazkova;

"George Kastrioti-Skanderbeg's resistance to the Ottomans. Heroicity as part of the Albanian individuality..."

Which states; (issue; Balsha Origins)

The political situation in Albania prior to the Ottoman invasion had been very complicated because of the high level of feudal partitioning of the country. There were several independent principalities ruled by the most powerful Albanian feudal lords: of Durrës in Central Albania, ruled by Carlo Thopia; of despot Spat in Epirus; of the Balsha family in Northern Albania; of Theodore Muzaka of Berat, comprising the lands around Berat.

And also stated; (issue; Scanderbegs origin)

"As a vassal of the Ottomans, one of the Albanian feudal lords, Gjin Kastrioti, was forced to send in 1423 his son George as a hostage of Sultan Murad. There the Albanian was converted to Islam and was given the name of Iskender."

---

Catholic World Encyclopedia VOL. XXIII.,No.134-MAY 1876

"In the 15th century several independant princelings called "Despots" by the Greeks, were in possetion of the rich and populous district of Albania, which stretched along the coast of the Adriatic and Mediterrenean sea and corresponds geographically to the Epirus of the ancient. One of the noblest of these chiefs was John Castriot....""

---

Balsha(Balsic) considered a "rival Albanian tribe" in another non-Albanian source

"In 1385, the independent Albanian ruler of Durres, Karl Thopia, made a grave mistake which was to change Albanian history dramatically. He invited the Ottoman Turks into Albania in order to help him defeat his Albanians rivals of the Balsha family. From this introduction to the Balkans, the Ottomans began gradually expanding their foothold slowly conquering Albania one tribe or feudal lordship at a time. By the 1440's almost all Albanians recognized the threat to their traditional lifestyles and religion posed by the Turks. In 1443 an Albanian general who was trained by and served as an Ottoman officer, Gjerg Kastrioti, managed to unite the various petty lords and tribal chieftains of Albania under his command to resist the Turks. "Skenderbeg" as he became known, led a highly successful resistance to the Turks and created the very first de facto independent Albanian State. ''Between 1443 and 1468 "Skenderbeg" kept the Turks at bay and became a hero across Christiandom. The famous black two-headed eagle on a red field banner, the national emblem of Albania, was his family's banner. This brief period represented the first and last expression of anything approximating Albanian nationalism until 1878."''

---

MINORITIES IN SOUTHEAST EUROPE

Quoting Rajwantee Lakshman-Lepain(A french historian doing the history of Albania), Researcher of CEDIME-SE, the researcher and writter of the article. On the Balsha discussion he states;

(issue; Balsha(Balsic) origins)

"Quite often, there was identity confusion among rich Albanians to whether they were Serbs or Albanians. Obviously, they were speaking both languages and the same confusion existed in the matter of religion"

"As far as the Catholic aspect of this chiefdom is concerned, it appears that it was related mainly to Balsha’s Albanian identity. Although this Albanian identity was established by the mid-14th century, its origin raised many questions. Sufflay thought that the Balshas were of Vlach origin (Sufflay, 1924: 204), while most probably they belonged to a clan with a mixed Albanian and Vlach identity."

"Weigand discovered the presence of a Balsha family in a group of early Albanian families in Romania (Weigand, 1927: 223). In the late thirteenth century, the Balsha family was Serbianized to a great extent, so they started using the Serbian name of Balsic. For a long period of time, they appeared to be fairly integrated into the Serbian political system. At that time --early fourteenth century-- they were Orthodox Christians. It seems that when the Nemanjid State collapsed, the Balsha family withdrew from the Serbian political scene and went back to their Albanian Catholic roots."

---

Scanderbeg's letter to the Prince of Taranto

Where he himself stated what he was and who his people were. (translateed, so it's little off)

"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults"

A non-translated version of the same letter can be found here( starts here, under 12)ends above 13Scanderbeg's letter begins under 13continues hereEnds where it says his name The letter is all in the original Italian.

---

This Italian Heraldica page, which has the same emblem shown in your "Nobility" page (Issue; Scanderbegs origins)

"The Kastrioti or Castriota family, of Albanian origin, begins with certainty with John Castriota, lord of Mat and Vumenestia, who died in 1443. He resisted Turkish attempts at conquering the Albanian region."

---

Quoted from Encyclopedia Britannica

"Among the leading families of the Albanian feudal nobility were the Thopias, Balshas, Shpatas, Muzakas, Aranitis, Dukagjinis, and Kastriotis."

---

Congress country study of Albania

"On March 1, 1444, Albanian chieftains gathered in the cathedral of Lezhë with the prince of Montenegro and delegates from Venice and proclaimed Skanderbeg commander of the Albanian resistance"

My input; Nobody denies the fact that there was a Montenegrin in the alliance, as you know, Crnojevic was a Montenegrin prince allied to Scanderbeg.

---

Country Cultures page that stated;

"The national and ethnic symbol of the Albanians is the eagle, which was used in that capacity in the earliest records. The eagle appears in a stone carving dating from 1190, the time of the so-called first Albanian principality, known as Arbanon,and was used as a heraldic symbol by a number of ruling families in Albaniain the late Middle Ages'', among which the Castriotta (Kastrioti), the Muzakaj (Myzeqe), and the Dukagjini."

'''The other two are Albanian, it was adopted as the symbol of the Albanian principality. So what makes the Castriota family any different?'''

---

Quote from Holberg's study on Scanderbeg (issue; Origins of Viosava)

"Barletius - and Holberg - is telling about the clashes between the Albanian princes; we understand that Scanderbeg was the leading Albanian prince who could-and-would fight the Ottomans; he united the Albanian princes, but he was not followed unanimously, and some of the princes - from time to time - allied themselves with the Ottoman Sultan." ---

'''Quote from Marinus Barletius on his 16th century bio of Scanderbeg, Historia de vita et gestis Scanderbegi Epirotarum Principis. Currently the leading source for info on Scanderbeg.'''(Regarding the origins of Scanderbeg's mother)

"John Kastrioti was married to Voisave, the daughter of the ruler of Pollogus, a country that lies between Tetovo and Skopje. One part of the population of Pollogus besides Bulgarian was Albanian, the family of Tribalda or “Triballorum princeps”. It was from this marriage that John Kastrioti had five girls and four boys." ---

Quote from New Advent, Catholic Encyclopedia

"This hero, whose feats of valour are almost legendary, was bred as a Moslem at the court of Murad II to whom he had been given as a hostage by his father, an Albanian chief..." (Paragraph II, Line XV)

Tpilkati 28 June 2005 23:09 (UTC)

Well then...
--- "Also: The letter of Skenderbeg in Taranto is not an original and it is from a biased source. The owner of the AOL page is an Albanian. Show me the original copy, if you have it; which I know you don't."

Can you show me proof it was translated by an Albanian? Dick Vara is not an Albanian name.

Oh here they are, from a book published in Rome. Here it is. Hope you can read Italian. Look back and read it.

"The Catholic source states that John Kastriota is from Lower Macedonia. It doesn't mention anything about Paul and Constantine; his father and nephew, who were sons of Branilo according to the genealogy I quoted."

Because Branilo did not exist. Theres no mention of him at all. The only Branilo Kastrioti was Scanderbegs nephew who betrayed him and went to the Ottoman army to be renamed Hamza Kastrioti.

"I will not change the page "Page scanned from an English book showing the crest of the Kastrioti together with other contemporary Serb noble families" because it calls the Lastriota family "Kastriotovich" and places their crest by the names and crests of Brankovic, Hrebeljanovic, Nemanjic, Balsic, Kotromanic, Mrnjavcevic - ALL OF WHICH ARE SERB NOBLE FAMILIES from Serbia, Montenegro and Bosnia."

Very well, people can see for themselves how it does not mention anything about Serb. Rather just Nobility and that the crest is also found in the heraldic page that states Scanderbeg of Albanian in origin, how conflicting! Two sources that have the similar crest, however one makes no mention of ethnicity and the other does. Balsha's(Balsic) origins are even more disputed the Scanderbeg's so... Heraldic page on Southern Yugoslav states

By the way on the topic of the Balsa - it was founded by Djuradj Stratimirovic Balsa; strast i mir = passion and peace.

A slav of All people stated Balsha as an Albanian family above... Also Albanians did not have a written language then. How can one write in Alb without a proper Alphabet? It is well known that during that era, in order for an Albanian to read the bible he had to learn a different langauge. Either Greek or Serb. Considering Balsha wass in Northern Albania, where gegs and Serbs minggled, it is only natural that he would read or write in that language. Sorry man, origins in that era were not so pure and clear. Thats why I dont deny that Scanderbeg did infact have mized origins of both Serb and Alb. We find evidence of this as far up as Montenegro and Kosovo in that era. Many Bulgarian and Serb historians comment how there were Alb populants in the areas between the Serb ones, similar to how it was in Southern Albania, where there was(and still is) mixture between Albs and Greeks(Epiotes to be exact). The only written languages that existed then were Slavic,Greek and latin. Thats why in Shkodra we find a church with encryptions in all three these langauges. However we also find comments on how these people spoke in their daily life. One of the most stricking is a comment that they spoke a "Daco-Mycian" language. This language is considered one of the projenitors of today's Albanian langauge. Hence the large amount of Romanian words in the langauge.

Worst of all, you have not provided anything about your proposed changes. Simply added them as you saw fit. On top of that added things that have not yet been proven and go against the NOV and posted your assumptions of what happened with no factual basis outside of names.

Also what do quotes matter when I have no background on them? You have not given me any info on their studies. How did they get to that conclusion, what are they backgrounds? As I stated Highduke, get some other sources that state Branilo existed and was the ruler of Ioannina, you have not provided anything outside of the unnofficial geneology page, whom they themselves have stated is prone to mistakes. Why dont you email them and get some info?

(If you havnt checked already, go up and see some of my sources which I have placed) Tpilkati 29 June 2005 02:13 (UTC)

WTF
Why the hell is nobody saying that he had a Serbian mother? Some nationalist removed it and you supposedly NPOV people just stood there. Dammit, this article is a joke. I'll add it back. Miskin 29 June 2005 05:36 (UTC)

Im not opposed to it, her name was Viosava. Whoever does do it must be an outsider. Im iskanderbey btw, but for some reason it does not let me log in that name anymore. probably some cookie problems or something. And this article is certainly not a joke. It's the general view seen of scanderbeg in nearly every encyclopedia. And "WTF" is not exactly the most constructive title. The full phrase is obviously a very obsense term, so I dont understand why that can be used.

Tpilkati 29 June 2005 06:08 (UTC)

For those who understand Albanian read this two articles, about the origin of Scanderbeg's mother Voisava. --Albanau 29 June 2005 15:14 (UTC)

RFC
I'm putting in a request for comment on this page to bring in more editors so that the genealogy issue can by adequately resolved. siafu 29 June 2005 17:08 (UTC)

Propaganda by Miskin!
clear un-NPOV on part of miskin in simply saying he united "Christains" in order to belittle Scanderbeg contributions to Albanians. The tribes of Epirus inwhcih he united were clearly Albanian ones. Like the Thopia's, Muzakas and Arianitis. The upper were a Montenegrin Crnojevics, The Zetan/Albanian family of Balsha's and Dukagjini who was Albanianess are undesputed. Sorry, for a uniter of Christains there was little diversity. Why leave Epirus out of this? There are also mentions from greek surces that Epirus was also inhabited by Albanians.

''After the death of Buondelmonti in 1408-9, the power is taken over by Carlo I Tocco, duke of Cephalonia, who after losing the city to Bua Spata, re-conquers it in 1417/8 and maintains it until his death in 1429. Carlo I Tocco develops economically and intellectually the city and strengthens the Despotate. Carlo I Tocco is succeeded by Carlo II Tocco''

http://ioannina.uoi.gr/_en/history/byzantine_period.html

Tocco=Thopia, an Albanian family... As described here. Spata was also an Albanian ruler. It is a common name used in Albanian. Similar to Kastriot. This is just a fake attempt in trying to deny Albanian history in Epirus. If you dont want to mention Epirus that fine. It does not change ethnicity of those inwhich he united...

And about the seal you posted. Why didnt you post the info from where you received it? [] This seal is found on a Danish site(Note you can switch between Danish and English on the top), translated in english it states;

''The inscription is in Greek and is telling that 'Alexander' (= Skender) is an Emperor and a King. Emperor of the Romans and King of the Turk, the Albanians, the Serbs and the Bulgars. It naturally follows that the inscription is laterally reversed.''

''However, Scanderbeg never was in such a position. He was a leader of the Albanians - and he succeeded in organising a rebellion against the Sultan, but he was not a King. When Scanderbeg passed away in 1468, the rebellion collapsed - and many of his companions escaped to Italy.''

Next time Miskin, please be so kind as to post all the info inwhich you recieved. Not just what suits you. If you need some more info on such issues i suggest you read this, Kladas uprising and this. I certainly hope you remove this innability to accept what is generally accepted. That Scanderbeg fought for Albania... Or will you keep thinking that Albanese mean Christians? And Albanau is right. It does not say he united Epirus, just the Albanian tribes within it. Two to be exact.

By the way, I would like to quote Martin Barleti (Marinus Barletius) for a moment on Scanderbeg's mother, he was a major historian on Scanderbeg from the early 16th century;

"John Kastrioti was married to Voisave, the daughter of the ruler of Pollogus, a country that lies between Tetovo and Skopje. One part of the population of Pollogus besides Bulgarian was Albanian, the family of Tribalda or “Triballorum princeps”. It was from this marriage that John Kastrioti had five girls and four boys."

Also before one thinks that Scanderbeg suddenly popped up in the history of Albania, I would like to present a poem by Lord Byron called "Childe Harold's Pilgrimage"

"Land of Albania! where Iskander rose, Theme of the young, and beacon of the wise, And he his namesake, whose oft-baffled foes Shrunk from his deeds of chivalrous emprize: Land of Albania! let me bend mine eyes On thee, thou rugged nurse of savage men! The cross descends, thy minarets arise, And the pale crescent sparkles in the glen, Through many a cypress grove within each city's ken."

Or maybe also refer to the 16th century poem by Edmund Spencer titled "Historie of George Castriot, surnamed Scanderbeg, King of Albinie"

Or refer to Edward Gibbons quote, from the famous books "History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire";

"In the list of heroes, John Huniades and Scanderbeg are commonly associated, and they are both entitled to our notice', since their occupation of the Ottoman arms delayed the ruin of the Greek empire.'John Castriot, the father of Scanderbeg, was the hereditary prince of a small district of Epirus or Albania, between the mountains and the Adriatic Sea." cf.'' Gibbon, vol. 5, p. 401-406.

I also suggest reading George Castriot, surnamed Scanderbeg, King of Albania, New York 1850, by Clement Clarke Moore (1779-1863). The author of the poem The Night before Christmas.

Tpilkati 29 June 2005 21:43 (UTC)

Sigh, the Albanian nationalism didn't even exist at the time for crying out loud. Have you ever seen the "seal of Scanderbeg"? If I had wanted to really bring some evidence against his non-Albanian ethnic origin then I'd put it in the article. But I don't really want to, as long as you people admit that he had Serbian origin and united any Christian that was in the region rather than picking Albanians like you people fantasise. You're not in position to deal with the truth right now, so I'll wait until I get some serious person to clean up the article. In the meantime just keep the word 'Epirus' out in order to make your life easier. In a way I feel sorry for your desperate attempts to promote your national myths for your non-existent history, so I'll let you have your ways for now. I wonder why you people care so much, Albanians are for the most part muslim todays, which means that they betrayed everything Scanderbeg fought for. Life it seems has a weird sense of irony. Miskin 30 June 2005 01:56 (UTC)

According to you Miskin, we should replace the "Albanian" with "Christian" on the article, and again according to you, because the large majority of the Albanian people are today muslims and Scanderbeg was a Christian and a anti-Turk you fell that Skanderbeg rightfully belong to the Serbian people because they are a Christian and anti-Turk people like Scanderbeg. I think it's the same thing with the Greeks who also claim him. Well try to tell that Skanderbeg was Serb to the Arbëreshë people living in Italy, have you forgotten them? In Arbëresh poems he is not only the defender of their home country, he also the defender of Christianity. For the Albanians in Albania, a large majority whose muslims, Skanderbeg is a national argument proving Albania's cultral affinity to Europe. I also want to say that it's true that he united Albanians tribes of both Albania and Epirus, read Tpilkati post on the top there he gives facts. Albanau 30 June 2005 02:21 (UTC)

Not much earlier than Scanderbeg, most of Albania was under the Greek domination of the Despotate of Epirus, which included the actual region of Epirus as well. This is why after the fall of the Byzantines, there was a slight confusion to the Westeners about the borders between Epirus and Albania. This however has nothing to do with the actual history of Epirotes which is completely different to that of Albanians. Greeks have been colonising the region of Southern Albania since antiquity, so Southern Albania and Northern Epirus must have always contained assimilated Greco-Albanian population. This of course doesn't stop us from keeping the history of those two regions separate. PS: And you should go ask the Arvanites who live in Attica whether they consider themselves Albanians or not. Some of them still speak a language related to yours. Im not going to discuss why Albs turned muslim here, there is far too little room thanks to the air spewed out. If you want to know, find a suitable forum or something... Miskin 30 June 2005 02:38 (UTC)

Enough is Enough!
I think its enough that we have Greek propagandists here in Wikipedia that are claiming that Skanderbeg was Greek, 1, if we have this many Serb propagandists everyday that claims that Skanderbeg was Serb or half Serb much of our spear time will go on reviewing what Serb propaganists have been doing.

 Georgios Kastriotis, the last notable leader of the albanian resistance against the Ottomans, was a greek nobleman with direct hereditary connections to the imperial court of Constantinople. 1

--Albanau 29 June 2005 23:56 (UTC)

dealing with with these issues!
'Sigh, the Albanian nationalism didn't even exist at the time for crying out loud. Have you ever seen the "seal of Scanderbeg"?''

The seal of Scanderbeg was posted above and it's source was posted there. I suggest you read what I write instead of just blowing it off thinking its nationalism.


 * Did you translate what the seal says? As in, who the "Romans" of the middle Ages were? Oh, so you didn't. I wonder if you even have a clue. Check out the article Byzantine Empire.

Tpilkati 30 June 2005 03:01 (UTC)
 * There is no info regarding the seal. nothing on it. It could very well be fake. Look at the page for info. It could have been made after his death as he was never the ruler of the Bulgar or Serbs. Why do I have to repeat myself?

You're not in position to deal with the truth right now, so I'll wait until I get some serious person to clean up the article.

All those I posted are books dealing with Scanderbeg. Many were written during the 1800's and even as far back as the 16th century. I suggest you read them.

 In a way I feel sorry for your desperate attempts to promote your national myths for your non-existent history, so I'll let you have your ways for now.

National myth? With a character that has been tied to Albanians since the 16th century?


 * The emblem on your flag is a rip off a Byzantine Greek symbol. After acknowledging this piece of information and referring to your country as "the country of Eagle", due all the respect, but you're living in national myths. Miskin 30 June 2005 02:50 (UTC)

Tpilkati 30 June 2005 03:01 (UTC)
 * First, try not making direct comments to the present day country and instead focus on the topic at hand. The Byzantine Eagle was in fact adopted by Albanians. However it was adopted during the Principality of Arbenon during the 11-12th century.

''I wonder why you people care so much, Albanians are for the most part muslim todays, which means that they betrayed everything Scanderbeg fought for. Life it seems has a weird sense of irony.''

Quite possibly the most ignorant comment I have read. The truth is the truth and your obvious biase does not change it.


 * I think truth hurts... Miskin 30 June 2005 02:50 (UTC)

Tpilkati 30 June 2005 03:03 (UTC)
 * No, it not. The truth is something I am well aware of. You made a ridiculous comment stating why we are trying to claim scanderbeg. The fact is we do because he fought for us.

Oh and Albs were under Greek domination during Scanderbeg's time?

Catholic World Encyclopedia VOL. XXIII.,No.134-MAY 1876

"In the 15th century several independant princelings called "Despots" by the Greeks, were in possetion of the rich and populous district of Albania, which stretched along the coast of the Adriatic and Mediterrenean sea and corresponds geographically to the Epirus of the ancient. One of the noblest of these chiefs was John Castriot....""

Or refer to Edward Gibbons quote, from the famous books "History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire";

"In the list of heroes, John Huniades and Scanderbeg are commonly associated, and they are both entitled to our notice', since their occupation of the Ottoman arms delayed the ruin of the Greek empire.'John Castriot, the father of Scanderbeg, was the hereditary prince of a small district of Epirus or Albania, between the mountains and the Adriatic Sea." cf.'' Gibbon, vol. 5, p. 401-406.

It is well known that during this era, many greek territories were facing heavy depopulation thanks to Turkish conquest. In order for the Despot leaders to repopulate them they called on Albanians to begin populating these places. Arvanites are for the most part descendents of these people. This is also why in this era we see a big change in what the population does. Greeks were well known farmers for the most part. However, Albanians were sheperds. Well in many of these territories. We find that people were no longer farming but had becoming mountain sheperds. But why am I saying all this? Read the Kladas uprising and the other article I posted.

Sorry if this does not suit your belief. It was never meant as a territorial claim. Dont take it as such. I dont have claims on Pyrrhus or Alexander so you dont have to get paranoid. This is simply meant as a historical mention. Tpilkati 30 June 2005 02:38 (UTC)

Nice. So why are you posting all this? To prove that some Albanians were independent at some point in history? I was talking about the Despotate. Look that one up. Miskin 30 June 2005 02:55 (UTC)

Prelubovich was also the ruler of Ioannina at one point. he was a Serb dictator. Boundaries were not as clear then...
 * Im posting it to show you history. Thats all. Why are you seeing this in such as offensive way?

Tpilkati 30 June 2005 03:01 (UTC)

So what about the letter of Scanderbeg where he claims decend from the ancient Greeks (Epirotes and Macedonians). I mean despite what kind of ludicrous propaganda goes on today about the origins of those people, prior to the fall of Constantinople and the renaissance all knowledge and study of Classics was confined strictly to Greeks. In other words, during Scanderbeg's time "ancient Macedonians"=Greeks and "ancient Epirotes"=Greeks. He couldn't have thought that they were something else, so he obviously thought of himself as something else (other than Albanian). I'm not saying that he was claiming decend specifically from the Greeks, all I'm saying is that he didn't recognise himself as an ethnically Albanian patriot like you people want to believe. He recognised himself as a Christian inhabitant of the Balkans who fought the Muslim invaders. His letter makes it clear. Miskin 30 June 2005 03:06 (UTC)

''In the 15th century several independant princelings called "Despots" by the Greeks, were in possetion of the rich and populous district of Albania, which stretched along the coast of the Adriatic and Mediterrenean sea and corresponds geographically to the Epirus of the ancient. One of the noblest of these chiefs was John Castriot....''

And how on earth does that imply that John Castriot was Albanian in any way?? Despot was usually a title of Byzantine nobility. Aren't you interpreting those texts according to your own POV? Miskin 30 June 2005 03:08 (UTC)


 * Yes he makes it very clear when he states his people were insulted when the Prince of Tarranto called them sheep. Stating "You think of us with insults". In that era Albs were living in the past Despot of Epirus. SO it was only natural that their lack of knowledge of history they believed they tied with it. Again are Turks the Trojans? Because Mehmed claimed so...

Im interpreting it according to how it is stated. It says the Despots were in control of Albanians and one of these was John Castriot. By the way. Can you read the rest of the Biography? The Despots could usually be taken by whoever conquered them. By the way. John Castrioti was the ruler of Kruja a completely Albanian region in Northern Albania... You dont call something the "District of ALbania" without the area being controlled by Albanians...

Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race.' My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans.' This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies.

Like I said the translation is a bit off, however I posted a non-translated letter on top. He stated, his peopel were offended. The only people the Prince of Tarranto offended was Albanese by calling them "sheep". He stated, you think of us with insults... The legacy is harder to define then what you are right now. Your simply refuting things because you dont like what they state, because of our biase against Albanians. Sorry, he united Albanians and fought for the freedom of Albania. Like Albanau stated, it not just Albanians who have talked about Scanderbeg as their hero. Arberesh are also. People who have been living outside of Albania for 500 years.

Tpilkati 30 June 2005 03:12 (UTC)

Mehmed II also claimed the title of "Caesar" after his conquest of the City. This was kind of contradictory since the ancient Roman Empire had also claimed heritage to the Trojans and the Byzantine Greeks recognised their Empire as "Roman". My point is that what a 21-year old Turkish warlord says in the 15th century is not worth being repeated. It's just too easy to say that "everyone in that era claimed heritage from anything they knew about", and even if that's the case, it still proves my original point i.e. that Scanderbeg was not an Albanian patriot like this article claims. And besides, if you're so sure of what you say, then why do you feel the need to repeat the word Albanian so many times in the same article, and why are you hiding the fact that he had a Serbian mother? Just wondering... Miskin 30 June 2005 03:26 (UTC)


 * Again, I said Im not deleting the half Serb part, however it would make sense to call it Slav as she is from Tetovo, a Bulgarian region. However yes, according to NPOV its Serb. Even the Pope called the Turks Trojans, so it was not just their emperor, he stated "The Trojans had conquered Constaineople". Mehmed called himself Caesar because he was the ruler of the Romans. The reason why Ottomans connected themselves to the Trojans was because they were living in the area. Not because of the Caesar part. Tpilkati 30 June 2005 03:36 (UTC)

You dont call something the "District of ALbania" without the area being controlled by Albanians...

Yes you do. A region's name is independent to its rulers and even inhabitants. Hell, sometimes people have the nerve to claim the names of neighbouring regions (e.g. FYROM wants to call its country 'Macedonia'). Miskin 30 June 2005 03:26 (UTC)

Macedonia issue is different. Had it not been called Albania it would have been ruled by somebody else. If it was ruled by greeks it would not have been called such. Again, I simply ask you to actually read the stuff I provided as there is much more to it than that quote. We also find these words

Page 237; "Scanderbeg was advised to reject any sort of condition and insist on the full freedom of Albania."

Page 236; "During the Albanian war of Indepedence... Tpilkati 30 June 2005 03:42 (UTC)

Miskin,

It is correct, SKANDERBEG united Albanian tribes of both Albania and Epirus and not just Albanian tribes of Albania. Greeks were not the only inhibitors of the Epirus region. Epirus has traditionally had a mixed population of Albanians, Greeks, Vlachs, Macedonians and even Turks. Albanau 30 June 2005 10:22 (UTC)

Is it really THAT important to you to put the word Epirus in the article?? There was no fixed border between Albania and Epirus at the time, so the word Albania is sufficient. Stop acting like such a stubborn blinded nationalist for crying out loud. I already know you have extreme views and that you're not in position to be editing historical articles, but as it's your right to do so, you're just a pain in the ass for me. If you think that including Epirus is THAT important then go ahead and do it, I know this article be re-edited many times. It just pisses me off to see that an extremist like you can have its way in wikipedia just by having as stubborn as a donkey (greek expression). Miskin 30 June 2005 13:17 (UTC)

'' Greeks were not the only inhibitors of the Epirus region. Epirus has traditionally had a mixed population of Albanians, Greeks, Vlachs, Macedonians and even Turks.''

But Greeks have always been the majority. Who are the "Macedonians" at the time of Scanderbeg?? There was no "Macedonian" ethnic group prior to Tito's reforms in 1945. "Macedonian" was a to Greeks what "Sicilian" was to Italians. The Macedonian ethnic group is a communist invention, and apparently your knowledge is sourcing by communist propaganda, this is why I can't stand the idea of you editing articles. Miskin 30 June 2005 13:17 (UTC)


 * From what I see here, you obviously have a clear biase against Albanians. It is well known that in that era Carl Thopia had taken control of Ioannina and much of Epirus. In fact the title "Prince of Epirus" was given to Scanderbeg after he married Thopia's daughter. Hence Scanderbeg would technically be the inherritor of Epirus. Why do we have to delete it if it has historical significance? You are just being paranoid beliving its some kind of land claim. When it's not. And by the way, Sicilian didnt always mean Italian. Infact much of its tied relations to Italy are pretty recent... As for "communist propaganda"?, first maybe you should learn to stop using such titles and instead simple debate with the person, second many of those books were written prior to Albanias national movement. Tpilkati 30 June 2005 14:08 (UTC)

No I have nothing against Albanian people. However I'm against the extreme nationalism that generally exists, especially when it insults other cultures. I've met Albanians who would even claim that Aristotle was an Albanian. From what Albanau says, it's obvious that he's one of those extremists. I didn't even plan to spend time on this article after our last talk, but after watching Albanau denying Skanderbeg's Slavic origin and calling other people ultra-nationalists (ironically enough), I couldn't just sit by and do nothing. I have nothing against you in particular. Scanderbeg was also characterised on the seal as the Emperor of the Byzantines. Does that mean that he is the inherritor of the Byzantine Empire as well? Let's just try to be reasonable here. By the way I was talking about Sicilians of contemporary times, otherwise it would be a bad example. Those books were written prior to Albanians national movement as you said. The problem is that Albanian national movement is happening in the wrong century. This is what I'm trying to make you understand. Miskin 30 June 2005 14:51 (UTC)

Tpilkati 30 June 2005 17:10 (UTC)
 * Yes, however he was in no position to claim to be the Emperor of the Romans. The Greeks were not under his control but Venetian and Turkish, Constantinople was in control of the Turks and before then the Byzantines already had an Emperor(Constantine). However he did have control of much of the territories of the past Despot of Epirus. Even in your own wikipedia link, it states how the despot came to an end around the time of Thopia. The territories of the Despot stretched all the way to Scutari. So thats why there is significance in it being posted. And obviously the Aristotle stuff is not to be taken seriously, this is actual discussion with historical facts. Thats not...

The problem here is with Albanian propagandists (Albanau, Iskender)
Remember people, Skenderbeg's own Geneology states that he and his family and his ancestors and parents wee Serbs.

Here are the additions I have made to this page based on the evidence I have collected:

Family Tree and Genealogy
Skenderbeg's Geneology

Quotes by Academics on Skenderbeg's ethnicity
List of Quotes (two academics being quoted are Albanians)

Let's get an administrator to decide whether my contributions are valid
'''YOU SHOULD BELIEVE IN THE GENEALOGY BECAUSE IT WAS COMPOSED BY 15 PEOPLE FROM WESTERN EUROPE WHO WORK FOR THAT HERALDRY WEBSITE. THAT IS WHY. ITALIANS, GERMANS AND ENGLISH ACADEMICS COMPILED HERALDRY INFO ON ALL OF EUROPE'S ROYAL FAMILIES.'''

AND AS I'VE SAID BEFORE: EITHER WAY, WHETHER BRANILO WAS THE RULER OF JANINA OR NOT - BRANILO WAS STILL THE GREAT GRANDFATHER OF SKENDERBEG:


 * Kastrioti Family Genaology states that his acestor was Branilo, a Serb
 * English translation of Heraldic Source on Scanderbeg

'''Let's get an administrator to decide whether my contributions are valid. You cannot just decide for yourself. I haven't made any deletions. I have just made additions. It isn't up to you to say whether they are invalid. Every addition is backed up by a source: whether this is a URL link or a published work, the evidence is there. You are motivated by nationalism and intollerance. Get an administrator to decide whether my contributions are valid or not. Otherwise, I am well within my rights to make additions upon providing documentation, as I have done up until now.'''


 * Administrators do not have the final word on content; they are just as bound by fact and consensus as everyone else. siafu 30 June 2005 22:56 (UTC)

---

Somebody needs to decide and protect this page from revision.

---


 * The very existance of Branilo is disputable. As the page states he was the ruler of jannina. When he was certainly not. Now that you failed in that arguement you try and go through to another one. Well that geneology page states he was a ruler of Jannina(Ioannina) when he was not. So how can I believe he even existed when I have no info on him? If you trully believe they are correct then I ask you to email them and ask for your info. I certainly will. Who made the geneology page does not matter. Its the sources that they used and the info they based it on. Bring evidence on Branilo's existance.


 * I have not decided for myself. The bio on that article is based on multiple biographies. From Fan Noli to the earliest one done by Martin Barleti in the 16th century. On top of this, Catholic sources have stated he was Albanian, countless books I have posted above state Albanian, including two German ones. I suggest you look those books up and read them, I also suggest you read the Catholic world bio, which is translated from the info in Rome, and see what it says.


 * I resent the Natioanlist comment. I have brought sources from his earliest biographies. available along with countless article mentions. So you are calling me a nationalist based on that? Im not the one spreading propaganda by creating a laughable webpages. Which by the way, is also the location of that "Serb heraldry" scan you so often refer to. Now get a arbitrator here to resolve this. And bring your proposed changes in the discussion page before you change things in the original article.


 * another interesting assumption is this;

South Albania bordered Branilo's domain and was governed by the Thopia family who were Ottoman Ottoma Empire vassals. It is likely that Branilo's assassin was sent by Thopia

May I ask where you received the info for this? What sources? Along with the sources of your "Serb heraldy" page? On top of this, why have you removed fighting for the freedom of Albania? When nearly all the sources above state otherwise and none of yours mention anything about what he was fighting. Or who Branilo was killed by. On top of this, you have given no sources on his supposed origins from Kastoria...

This is pathetic, not only are your sources completely contradicted but you make assumptions on them too with no actual evidence. The Kastoria comment is ridiculous as the name Kastor is a Greek term for beaver, as Kastoria is reknown for it's fur. Kastriot is closer to the Greek word for castle Kastro. However you also ignored the region in nothern Albania called Kastrati. It's it interesting how John Kastrioti, Which is the farthest back we can date Scanderbeg's family with certainty ruled in Kruja, Northern Albania? Oh by the way, what makes that geneology page worth more then this heraldic page? Which includes ones from all over Europe.

Someone certainly does need to protect this page. From your horrible assumptions, rewriting and falsification of history. Ill leave them for one, so people can see how ridiculous and contradicted they are... Tpilkati 30 June 2005 23:10 (UTC)

The existence of Branilo is NOT in dispute by anyone but YOU.
And by the way - you only think Skenderbeg's ancestry can be traced to John and no further because you don't want to see who John's father was. It was Paul and his uncle was Constantine who was beheaded in Durres (according to the genealogy). The father of Paul and Constantine was Branilo. Stanisa, Skenderbeg's own brother named his son Branilo, after their great grandfather! After Branilo, you will find only names like this in Skenderbeg's ancestry: Jovan, Veljko, Vladimir, Ljubo, Pribislav, Vuk, Obren, Ognjen, etc...

Here are two sources that mention Branilo:


 * Kastrioti Family Genaology states that his acestor was Branilo, a Serb
 * English translation of Heraldic Source on Scanderbeg

As you can see by going to the main page, the information was gathered by 15 academics from Italy, Germany, UK and USA. Whether Branilo ruled Janina or not - Branilo is still named as Skenderbeg's great-grandfather. Whether Branilo was a lesser nobleman or major nobleman doesn't change that he was still a Serb nobleman. As the genealogy also states, Skenderbeg's mother, brothers and sisters all had specifically Serbian names: Vojislava, the daughter of Balsa (whom the geneology calls "the Serb prince of Polog"); brothers Stanisa & Repos; daughters Valica & Jela. All are Serb names that have meaning in the Serbian language which is explained in the section I added, "Family Tree and Genealogy".

---

One again, you have brought nothing but that one source and indirect info. I have stated that I do believe that Johns wife was in fact of Serbian origin so the names can be from her side. Ill repeat myself;

Do you have any other info which state Branilo Kastrioti as the ruler/governor of Janina/Ioannina?

Because as I just showed. There is absolutely NO mention of this Branilo character so it is easily just a fault of the geneology page. So if they got that wrong. Why should I believe the rest? Greek sources, the ones who have carried the history of Ioannina, state that Thomas was the ruler and that there was never a Branilo. Your arguement is so weak that now you head to indirect relations. This is hilarious. Another interesting lie you have placed is that you assume Kastrioti came from Kastoria. This magical lie also has no support as it has absolutely no mention in the official Kastoria online page, including this, and this, in order to go to the history part click on Γενικά then use babelsifh if you must. Surely the ancestors of such an important historical figure would be mentioned in an online source. Yet nothing, no mention, no referrence. Sorry Highduke but such a big mistake cannot be just ignored. The geneology page is obviously flawed. I have never seen one single mention of this Branilo character outside of a few Serb sources. Yes this does mention Branilo, however AS THE NEPHEW OF GEORGE, NOT GRANDFATHER. This just backs what I stated. Thank you. Can you find me any other sources that state him as the grandfather? Non-Serb sources? If so bring them, as his very existance is in trouble... Also this bio(one which was written in Rome, where nearly all original sources of Scanderbeg are based) has no mention of a Branilo, but does say John was Albanian, the Heraldica clearly states "of Albanian origin", two books written in the 19 and early 20th century point out the mistake on part of Serb sources (I have written the names of both up above), two 1800 bio's also make no mention, one which was published in NY in 1850, a 16th century book by Martinus Barletius, the earliest bio of Scanderbeg and the one which present day bio's are based on. I suggest you read all of them(again, names posted above) and then comment... As for Balsha, echck upper sources. Stop thinking the geneology page is an end all source. Get some more...And by the way, capitolizing everything or highlighting everything does not make your arguements better, just makes you seem obnoxious. Also can you give me some info on how he kept links with Serbia? We know he kept links with Hunyadi, who himself had links with Serbia, and that Scanderbeg tried to aid him in a siege in Belgrade. However we never hear of actual direct relations with Serbia. Unles ofcourse, Hnyadi is Serb now also... And the "academics" part certainly does not serve any purpose but simply to overstate your view. Five academics can hardly be seen as the entire community, especially in such a selective manner inwhich they are posted, you still have not provided full articles and info on these academics. Why dont you add quotes from those who did major studies on Scanderbeg? Like Martin Barleti, or Holdberg(18th century historian who led a major study on Scanderbeg)? Why pick nobodies? I have added an interesting quote on Holdberg on my source list up above. You should look into it and the link provided. BTw, Golemi- Golem pat was rather comical as Golemi is a common Albanian last name dated as far back as Arianiti Golemi. By the way, the 15 scholars you so rave about did not all work on Scanderbeg. That website was a joint effort from people on the internet to gather info on all Italian nobility(as stated on the main page)Meanign those 15 have contributed for different characters not just to the Castriota family all together. The main page itself makes it clear that the page is prone to make mistakes... So yes there is nothing official in it.

(according to the genealogy)\ This says millions... BTW you still have not provided any sources on the Thopia comment...

At this point I am about sick and tired of reposting, do you agree for a request for a mediator? Just say yes or no and then I can make a request for one. Obviously I dont believe Albanau or Miskin can be seen a mediators...

PS; Anyone know a good site I can host word files? I want to post one for this article however it's far too big to post within the discussion. I would also like to note that I have sent an Email to the geneology page asking for a list of their sources... That was two days ago... Tpilkati 1 July 2005 04:59 (UTC)

"""Albanians are for the most part muslim todays, which means that they betrayed everything Scanderbeg fought for."""

First, catholic Skanderbeg fought against the catholic Venetians in 1447-1448, when they invaded Albania. So tell me again, did Skanderbeg fight for catholicism?

Second, if he hated islam itself so much, could he not tell his nephew Hamza to use a christian name at least? User:Johnclodian

True, he also fought Normans who invaded from Sicily. Tpilkati 2 July 2005 18:31 (UTC)

Miskin?
Albanians in the Despotate:

"A prince from the overthrown Byzantine ruling family, Michael Comnenus, made alliances with Albanian chiefs and drove the Venetians from lands that now make up southern Albania and northern Greece, and in 1204 he set up an independent principality, the Despotate of Epirus, with Janina (now Ioannina in northwest Greece) as its capital."

www.country-studies.com/albania/the-barbarian-invasions-and-the-middle-ages.html

Now I hate to break the news to you but this despotate of Epirus had gone kaput a long time before Skanderbeg. In the second half of the 14th century it had been overrun by Serbs and Albos.

John Musachi writings about North Epirus:

""I can confirm to you that Andrew Molosachi or Musachi was the sebaston cratos and ruler of Epirus, which in Albanian is called pylloria... This Myzeqe is the country of the Molossi and was thus named after them. We have been the rulers of that country from ancient times to the present day and took on the family name Molosachi, but the word Molossia was corrupted and is pronounced Mosachia and in Albanian it is called Myzeqe...When you come upon the name Theodore Musachi Chiscetisi (Kishetisi), know that Kishetisi means long-haired. And indeed they wore their hair long. In Albanian, the word ‘kishet’ (gërshet) means ‘braids’ and that was the way they were accustomed to wearing their hair, as far as I remember.""

As you can notice yourself, Musachi, (ruling dynasty of North Epirus 14-15th century) makes several references to the albanian language, not just greek, which was the official language of the byzantium.

He also writes about several places inhabited by albanians.

""He also possessed and ruled over the region of Opari (Opar) which is inhabited by Slavs, with the hamlets of Festazzi (Peshtan), Beci, Maserecchi (Mazreka), Lodari (Lavdar), Mariani (Marjan) and Ceriasceli (Çemerica?), all of which are inhabited by ALBANIANS.""(emphasis added).

Battle of KosovoPolje 1389:

""When Murad the Second took power, he seized Serbia and Bulgaria in a huge onslaught. Lazar, the Despot of Serbia, and King Marko of Bulgaria and Theodore Musachi, the second-born of our family, and the other Lords of Albania united and set off for battle, which the Christians lost. It was there that the above-mentioned Theodore, who had a large band of ALBANIANS with him, was slain.""(emphasis added).

No greek soldiers heh???

http://www.albanianliterature.com/html/authors/prose/musachi.html

Allow me to go a little further and remind you that albanians overran even South Epirus.

"In the middle of the 14th century a great migration of Albanians from the mounainous districts of the north took place, under the chiefs Gjin Bua Shpata and Peter Liosha; they advanced southwards as far as Acarnania and Aetolia (1358), occupied the greater portins of the despotate of Epirus and took Iannina and Arta."

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/A/AL/ALBANUS_LACUS.htm

Gjin bua Shpata:

C1. Ghin Bua Spatas (Lanza), Despot of Angelokastron and Acheloos (1358-1400), Lord of Arta 1375, Lord of Lepanto, Despot of Arta and Lepanto, +29.10.1400; m.1375 Elena Preliubowna, heiress of Vela, Drynopolis and Vagenetzia in 1382 D1. Irene, fl 1403; m.1396 Esau Buondelmonti, Despot of Joannina (+1403) D2. a daughter, fl 1392; m.Ghin Zenevisi D3. [illegitimate] Paolo Spata, Lord of Lepanto (1400-07), sold to Venetians, +after 1408 E1. a daughter, heiress of Dragomeste in 1402; m.N.H. Francesco Foscari, Patrizio Veneto (+before 1427) E2. [parentage uncertain] Rosso Bua, "Baron of Morea" in 1423 F1. Ghin Bua, Baron of Morea in 1457 G1. Pietro Bua, albanese master of clan in Morea (1453-89) H1. Nicolo, "Stratiota" in 1500 I1. Mercurio/Maurizio, Count of Holy Empire 1510, +after 1527; m.1519 Caterina Bocalis F2. Alessio Bua, Baron of Morea in 1457 C2. Maurizio Bua Sgouros, Despot of Arta (1400) -deposed by Vongo Zardari and (1410-18), Despot of Joannina (1403-18), +killed by Carlo I di Tocco Duke of Leucade 1418 C3. Comneno Spatas, fl 1392-1407 D1. a daughter; m.1392 Count Nicetas Thopia Lord of Croia and Valona (+1415) D2. Maurizio/Macer E1. Comneno/Camusa Spata, Lord of Eximeno (1464-66), gave to Venetians 1466 E2. Count Giaras, lived in Agraphi by Lepanto in 1465 F1. Nicolo Sguros, Turkish vassal in 1518 F2. Giorgio Sguros, Turkish vassal in 1518 B2. a daughter; m.Marco de Gozze, Nobile of Ragusa (living 1349) A2. Michele, +1350 B1. Ripa, Lord of Meleda’s island 1360

http://genealogy.euweb.cz/balkan/spatas.html

http://historymedren.about.com/library/atlas/natmapeurse1401.htm

User:Johnclodian

---

Much of this is confirmed in Byzantine documents. Tpilkati 2 July 2005 22:32 (UTC)

Regarding the genealogy page
Highduke, the accuracy of the genealogy page is disputed. It is based on the misreading of a 1368 slav document regarding the nobles of the castle of Kanina (not Jannina, but a castle very close to the city of Vlora (Aulona)). This misreading confused Hopf, and probably Spanducci also.

The document says Branilo and the commander of Kanina Kastrioti. Hopf did not read the and part, which in serb is just an "i" letter.

Genealogy for so far back is a tough job, and things rarely are word of God.

the Despotate of Epirus, with Janina (now Ioannina in northwest Greece) as its capital." 

Firstly: What does "now Ioannina in northwest Greece" supposed to mean. I tell ya, you people have an inferiority complex (I can think of many reasons). The name of the city has always been Ioannina, it's not "now Ioannina", Janina or whatever is the Albanian translation.


 * Pathetic. You dont even look at others sources... Did you even read any of what he posted or any sources he posted? Because you will ntoce the (now Ioannina) part was just part of the encyclopedia article. Again, whos the one whos paranoid? Tpilkati 3 July 2005 02:44 (UTC)

Secondly: Excuse my French but I don't give a rat's ass about what John Musachi thinks on the history of Epirus. He probably didn't even know what the word 'Epirus' stands for, let alone have a clue on its history. Epirus did have Albanians, and Albania did' have Greeks at the time, not only because of the Despotate, but also because of the Byzantine rule and antiquity. Even Dyrrhachium has for the most part of its history been Greek. The Southern part of Albania (Northern Epirus) which contains a large Greek minority today, was literally given to Albania as a gift during the Greek civil war from the communist party. There's nothing you said that I didn't even know, and nothing that changes the fact Epirus is distinct from Albania, and the Epirotes are Greeks. Just because at some point in history some Albanians were found in Epirus, it doesn't mean that you have the right to claim the name. Today Arvanite means Greek (you can ask one to verify this), but Greeks don't want to convince people that the Arvanites of the middle ages and the 19th century were Greeks. But honestly, I don't think that you could come up with any claim that would actually surprise me. Tpilkati take a look at this forum which I found accidently found while looking up 'Emathia': http://www.forumi.zeriyt.com/index.php/topic,6501.0.html I think that this forum and the views of your friends over here are more than sufficient to prove my point on your people. You're living on paranoid national myths that the rest of Europe experienced in the 19th century. For that reason most of you are not in position to be editing in here. Miskin 3 July 2005 00:45 (UTC)

What the hell are you talking aout? I didnt make any of those i never claimed Alex. Thats a forum, I have found forums where Greeks have said "we will take back north epirus", excuse me Miskin but what exactly have you contributed to the article rather then yap yap? I have brought articles, bio's and others yet all you ahev brought it words. Please... Your in no position to be telling me where I can or cannot edit. Your nothing more then a biased and paranoid Greek, who cant accept truth about a historical figure that did nothing for you... I will edit any article I have knowledge in if I have sources to back them. In this I have plenty, so I will continue freely. Whether you will accept it or not... Continue believing the stories your church tells you... Its doing you a lot of good. I will continue editing on a factual basis(which i have been, and you have not) with sources(again me, with and you without), sources of which none are Albanian... Paranois myths, right. Im not the one getting fumed when anything of my country becomes contains something that involves another. Your scanred to have the words Epirus and Albanian even paragraphs close to each other. The poster up above was just stating that then the Despotate of Epirus was gone and was being controlled by Serbs and Albs. Which is historically correct, and you may not care about what Musachi says but he was not living in the same era as now. He was living in the era of Scanderbeg so what he says has a lot of importance in understand the time... Your remark "we got north epirus" shows exactly the kind of person you are, and the words again spell out biased and angered, at the fact that your country could not complete it's megali idea. Sorry to tell you, but when the borders were drawn, greeks made up the minority there will about 120,000 at the most(estimate), check britannica... Which is why it did not stay in autonomy, because Greece could not conquer it and keep it...well thats another story... But anyway, North Epirus is not the issue here and is completely off-topic. Now instead of just filling up the page with air. can you contribute some evidence or else stop wasting you time. And look at what non-nationalitic, civilized Greek are saying about Albanian land. Tpilkati 3 July 2005 02:01 (UTC)

""I don't give a rat's ass about what John Musachi thinks""

What makes ur personal opinion better than his info?lol.

The very fact that what I would say is not based personal opinion, but on historical events. Miskin 3 July 2005 07:54 (UTC)

""Just because at some point in history some Albanians were found in Epirus, it doesn't mean that you have the right to claim the name.""

Send your complaints to those who called Skanderbeg prince of Epirus.lololol.

Don't you think that it's rather retarded to change the entire history of Epirus because Scadenberg was called its Prince? How about keeping the history of Epirus and changing the ethnicity of Scadenberg? :) You should send your complaints to those ancient Epirotes and Macedonians who recognised themselves as Greeks. Then send your complaints at Scadenberg who claimed decent to those Greeks, and for naming himself their Emperor, using their language, their symbols etc, etc. Laugh at this. I'm really not saying that Scadenberg was Greek. But he was not a patriot Albanian like you people fantasise. Miskin 3 July 2005 07:54 (UTC)

""I don't think that you could come up with any claim that would actually surprise me.""

All claims I made have been backed up by unbiased sources. Claims outside of this discussion are irrelevant.

Oh yeah? Like what? Epirus being Albanian for 3000 years, and Pyrrhus of Epirus being an Albanian? lol. Very backed up... :)

""Sorry to tell you, but when the borders were drawn, greeks made up the minority there""

Correct:

""a small community of about 35,000 ethnic Greeks was included within Albania's borders. (However, Greece, which counted all Albanians of the Orthodox faith—20 percent of the population—as Greeks, claimed that the number of ethnic Greeks was considerably larger.)"

Encyclopædia Britannica. 2005. Encyclopædia Britannica Online (subscribed).

The population of N. Epirus at that time was about 200,000.

We're not talking about the same thing. I'm talking about the outcome of WW2 and the Greek civil war. During the Greco-Italian war, Greece defeated the Italian forces (and the coward Albanians who joined them) and Northern Epirus was an occupied territory. After the end of the war, a civil war broke out in Greece, during which the communist party gave Northern Epirus to Albania in support for their commie comrades. So this is why you people have it. Not that I care, it's a very small piece of land, but I'm just making sure that you know. Miskin 3 July 2005 07:54 (UTC)

Tpilkati I wasn't talking to you when I said that "you're not in position to edit". I was talking to this other guy who is some levels below. Anyway "my church" is the same church as the one of Scanderbeg. What about yours?? The majority of you people are muslims, so I don't even see what's the cultural link between you and Scanderbeg and his Arvanites. Anyway keep dreaming. By the way I already told you, I don't have a problem with you keeping there the word Epirus if you really want to, although I still think it's retarded to do so. This article will be cleaned up very soon so all these disputes are pointless. Miskin 3 July 2005 07:54 (UTC)

'' Anyway "my church" is the same church as the one of Scanderbeg. What about yours??'' Your Roman Catholic? cool, im orthodox... though actually agnostic.. Our cultural link to Scanderbeg is our fighting nature. The fact is while he led us, we were the ones doing the slicing and dicing. Something that has went on even in the Ottoman age. You act like you have authority here...Please.... All you have contributed is words. If you really have all this evidence and knowledge just post it already...

But he was not a patriot Albanian like you people fantasise

Lets see, he broke from the ottoman army with a band of catholic albanians(stated in sources above), in the treaties he stated he would only recognise the full freedom of Albania(stated in above sources), fought off from Albania any invaders(whether Christian or muslim). check for yourself, read Martin Barleti, read Holdberg, read Clement Clarke Moore, read Suffley and finally Catholic encyclopedia sources... then comeback and tell me who was not nationalistic for his people... And another thing, you dont have the final say on what stays and what goes. Your say counts as much as your sources, I dont need to get your approval on the Epirus part. Historical records do, learn that.

Learn what Epirus and Macedon mean first. We talk about it later.Miskin 3 July 2005 18:15 (UTC)

This is pathetic. It's you obvious bias against Albanians that does this. The muslim arguement makes no sense in historical discussions.. Unfortunately, english wiki has become plagued thanks to people like you. Tpilkati 3 July 2005 08:47 (UTC)

Yes you're right, I'm biased again Albanians, lol. Actually, I'm jealous of Albanians, cos I've always wanted to be one... :D Sorry I couldn't help myself. Miskin 3 July 2005 18:15 (UTC)

Btw Barleti also speaks on the Slavic origin of Scanderbeg, which is completely swept under the rug on this article. But anyway, who cares. Miskin 3 July 2005 18:15 (UTC)

Tpilkati 3 July 2005 18:37 (UTC)
 * Yes, he speaks about Scanderbeg's mixed origins...It is known that in Northern Albania, it was not uncommon for nobility to intermix with Serb ones. It happened quite often.

''In concern to the article Skanderbeg, a lot of of Serbian ultranationalists have taken the honour of claiming him. I have nothing against Serbs in general, but think that this is typical balkanian dogmatic paranoia and a classic mythical style of thinking. Skanderbeg was obviously a Albaninan nationalist and not a Serb. Miskin version of the article is POV, is offensive against the Albanian people and not encyclopedic. I know you are a Slav by descendant but I hope you understand how wrong this is, and any of this propaganda comes up on wikipedia we must clean it up and protect the article. Can you review the article to the last change by me and protect it?''

That was really brave Albanau... Exactly what Skanderbeg would have done... lol. Miskin 3 July 2005 18:15 (UTC)

Dear Mr. Miskin
"""The very fact that what I would say is not based personal opinion, but on historical events."""

Your personal opinions are irrelevant. A lot of nobility throughout history had some type of myth that explains they had some noble descent and/or ancient roots in the land they were ruling, which is done to ligitimize the holding of the throne. It was just cool to do so. Example, if I remember correctly Ceasar was claiming to be descent from Aphrodite, lol. Alex the Great wanted to look like a legitimate inheritor of the persian throne, that is why he adopted persian dress and persian court manners, but of course that doesnt make him of persian descent. A similar situation is seen pretty much by all albanian nobility. And, no they were not pure blood nobility. If you read the musachi source you will see albanian nobility intermarried with serbs, greeks, italians, french etc etc.

"""Don't you think that it's rather retarded to change the entire history of Epirus because Scadenberg was called its Prince?""

Once again, dont take the claims of the albanian nobility too seriously, it was a standard of nobility to claim some type of mythical past. ITS THAT SIMPLE.

"""Oh yeah? Like what? Epirus being Albanian for 3000 years, and Pyrrhus of Epirus being an Albanian? lol. Very backed up... :)"""

I simply copy-pasted what Musachi wrote, above I explained that pretty much any noble family comes up with a myth of a glorius past. The only thing available at the time was Pyrrus and Molossians. They would have done the same thing if Pyrrus or the Molossians were French.

"""Greece defeated the Italian forces (and the coward Albanians who joined them)"""

What are you blaming us for? Who made Albania a vassal of Italy? King Zog. Who brought King Zog to power in Albania? The Serbs. It seems their puppet worked well just to sell off Kosovo and then $#%#$ them over, lol. Did albanians like King Zog? Well, our armed rebellions to bring him down show that he was not particularly popular.There is a lot to say in this subject, but its another topic. If you want Im willing to discuss WWII albania and the role of King Zog in another thread, and lets see what u got.

Nice. So how did the elections go? I heard that some people got shot. Miskin 4 July 2005 04:03 (UTC)

RfC
I'm not too hot on all of this at all, but if there is a dispute over whether Skanderbeg was part Serbian or not, the first question to ask is, is there a source anyone can cite which says he was? Hiding 5 July 2005 19:18 (UTC)

The fact that Skanderbeg's mother, Vojisava, was Serbian is not disputed by any sane person. What IS disputed is whether Skanderbeg considered himself Albanian, Serbian, or something in between. Another dispute arises when Serbian nationalists claim that not only was his mother Serbian, but his father was too. - 5 July 2005 18:20 (UTC)

You can find the arguements further above. Statements both for and against up above. You can check out both arguements and sources. Tpilkati 6 July 2005 00:22 (UTC)


 * If no-one disputes that Skanderbeg is part Serbian, why does the article not mention that fact? Maybe that would be a good starting point to solve this dispute.  In fact, your first two sentences should probably be added to the article as they seem to represent the situation, at least as I understand it, of scholaristic thought.


 * Is there a cite that would support the fact that some scholars believe his father was a Serbian? If so, that information should also be presented in the article.
 * I'm finding it hard to find relevant arguments in the page above. Since you are familiar with the discussion, could you summarise?
 * Also, what is the problem with using [this source http://www.heraldica.org/topics/national/albania.htm] to present the information that the Castriota-Scanderbeg is descended from Skanderbeg?


 * It may be useful to refer to this bit from WP:NPOV: First, and most importantly, consider what it means to say that unbiased writing presents conflicting views without asserting them. Unbiased writing does not present only the most popular view; it does not assert the most popular view is correct after presenting all views; it does not assert that some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Presenting all points of view says, more or less, that p-ists believe that p, and q-ists believe that q, and that's where the debate stands at present. Ideally, presenting all points of view also gives a great deal of background on who believes that p and q and why, and which view is more popular (being careful not to associate popularity with correctness).


 * Also, from WP:Wikiquette: Wikipedia articles are supposed to represent all views (more at NPOV). The Talk ("discussion") pages are not a place to debate value judgements about which of those views are right or wrong or better. If you want to do that, there are venues such as Usenet, public weblogs and other wikis. Use the Talk pages to discuss the accuracy/inaccuracy, POV bias, or other problems in the article, not as a soapbox for advocacy. Apologies for the amount of text, but these policies directly bear on my point. Hiding 6 July 2005 08:00 (UTC)

-

Arguement for; Since the other character is no longer here, I can present his view point. Supporting the Castrioti families Serb origin we find this Geneology page. In it it states Branilo Catrioti was the grandfather of Scanderbeg, he was the governr/ruler of Ioannina and a Serb. Also he presented this herladica page showing Scanderbeg Crest with what he states are other Serb noble families. He also presented a few quotes from other scholars who states Scanderbeg was a Serb and stated thst Scanderbeg family had a lot of Serb names.

Arguement Against; My arguement first criticizes whether or not this Branilo character ever existed. I have yet to find branilo in any sources outside of a Serb one. In fact, in the era he is stated as a governor in Ioannina, the city was under the control of a completely different ruler, Prebulovich, this can be see in in thesethreeGreek sources. All states that first Prebulovich took power in the era Branilo was supposed to have and afterwards his wife, an Italian and then an Albanian family took power, before the Turks. There is absolutely no mention of Branilo anywhere. Another posted explained why up above.

Now for the heraldica page, my critique of it is based on the fact that it says nothing about Serbs there. All it says was Nobility and then the number 25, on top of this there is no info about it, he has not posted the book inwhich it was taken from and the website that is hiorting it is from what is by far the most ludacris and prapagandic site on the web, created for the purpose of Greater Serbia. This is the site hosting it. So how can it be a credible source?

As for the names, like stated above, nobody denies the fact that Scanderbegs mother was in fact a Serb. It is something everyone has admitted, either Serbian or Bulgarian.

On the quotes issue, he has not given any sources as to where the quotes were taken, in what context and how much the scholars studied Scanderbeg. All he gave was some random people and even posted it on the article. I dont believe a selective quote posting with no sources has any real effect on an arguement, especially one from such unkown people. I would also like you to look at my articles in the "lets no forget" part. Tpilkati 6 July 2005 15:33 (UTC)


 * Okay. It seems clear then that at least  is a credible source for accepting that Skanderbeg can be cited as the dynastic source for the Castriota Scanderbeg family in Italian nobility.  So is it possible to have the article also reflect that historians believe Skanderbeg was part Serbian on his mother Vojisava's side, although it should be noted that it is unknown which nationality Skanderberg identified most with?


 * As for Branilo, I pulled this off of a message board found through a google search on Branilo Skanderbeg: yes, there is very possible that his mother had bulgarian origin. His father (Gjon Kastrioti) though was Albanian. Almost all contemporain medival sources refers to Scanderbeg as Albanian. Scanderbeg himself refers to his Albanianess in different documents.
 * The hipothesis of his Granfather being a Serb named Branilo is a due mistranscription (in the 19th Cent pro-Serbian books I think) of a medieval serbian document and has been rejected by scholars (although it circulates in various serbian sites in internet). This document refers at some point to "Branilo and Kastrioti" in the Castle of Kanina (south Albania). In the wrong transcription it was left out the "and" (in serbian "i "), concluding that Branilo and Kastrioti were the same, whereas in fact it were 2 different persons.
 * The correction of the transcription is to be found in the reference is to be found in "Zwei Urkunden aus Nordalbanien" with authors Thallozcy and Sufflay, in the book "Illyrische-albanischen Forschungen". Other autors have confirmid the finding.
 * So if we could confirm that is the case, it might be worth reflecting this mis-translation in the article? Hiding 6 July 2005 20:06 (UTC)


 * If Branilo was not Skanderbeg's grandfather, who was? It would be best to provide as definitive an account as possible so that we can be prepared to deal with this issue if it rises again in the future, either way. siafu 6 July 2005 16:39 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, everything further then John Kastrioti, Scanderbeg's father, is pure speculation. There have never really been any info on the grandfather of Scanderbeg, nearly all of his bio's begin with John, his father, as lord of Kruja and Mat in northern Albania. As for the Branilo mention, it seems kind of bulky to me. I mean where would it be placed without cutting out of the main discussion. Tpilkati 6 July 2005 19:19 (UTC)

Voisava
According to famous author Marin Barleti; Skanderbegs mother Voisava came from Pollogus, a country that lies between Tetovo and Skopje. One part of the population of Pollogus besides Bulgarian was Albanian.

Presumably Voisava was Bulgaralbanian, or, ethnic Bulgarian or ethnic Albanian and definetly not Serb.

Albanau 6 July 2005 17:56 (UTC)

Albanau: Vojisava (or Voisava, pronounced the same) is a common Serbian name, while the name is not found among Bulgarians. For that reason it seems unlikely that she was Bulgarian. Needless to say she was not Albanian, since the name is clearly Slavic. I'm a bit confused why you insist so adamantly that she was not Serbian. Is your basis for this claim the fact that the area she was from (Donji Polog) an area where no Serbs lived? Because that would be incorrect, there were Serbs inhabitting that area at that time. - 6 July 2005 14:53 (UTC)

According to the historical sources Voisava was the name applied to the mother of Skanderbeg, it's incorrect to use the name Vojisava or Vojislava when we speak about her. However I do not deny that the name is probably of Serbian origin but it seems no doubt that Voisava is the Albanian form of the supposed Serbian name. The usage of the name Voisava by Albanian people from a more early time then Skanderbegs birth are very clear. Example, Voisava Thopia (died after 8 Aug 1401) was daughter to Voisava Balash. It wouldent surprise me if the name Voisava/Vojisava/Vojislava was also used by other then the Albanian people, like the Bulgarians for example. Besides you cannot state that the name wasent used by Bulgarians at that time. But really enough with this crap, debating on the origin of the name it's all irrelevant and it will not lead us no where and this cannot be used as proff to the ethnic origin of a person. I didin't say that in the Pollogus area there lived no Serbian people, however the number most have been insignificant. I justed quoted Marin Barleti that said the population of the area was Bulgarian and Albanian. He also said that Skanderbegs mother Vojsava came from the Triballi family from that area. Perhaps this can lead us somewhere,, what was the origin of the Triballi family, what language did they speak and how did they regard themself as? Your convert psychology does not work. I'm simply correcting misunderstanding. Vojsava, according to the theory, is perhaps a Slav however specificly she is definitely not Serb but Bulgarian. If there was any overwhelming evidence that Vojsava was Slav I would have support it. They way you people present it is, Skanderbegs father was Serb and his mother also, and also that he regarded himself as Serb and fought for the Serbian people and that Enver Hoxha manipulated history, you are then total ignoring Albania's isolism and the Arberëshët people in Italy that are of Albanian origin. I know why Serbs fell that Skanderbegs belongs to them, I can give you a good reason, Albanians are for the most part muslim todays which means that they betrayed everything Skanderbeg fought for but Serbs have maintained their Christian religion. Skanderbeg is a Christian hero so according to some Serbs he shouldent be called a Albanian hero (cause Albanians are muslims) but more likely a Serbian hero cause of his religious belonging. --Albanau 7 July 2005 00:59 (UTC)

Tribali is not a family, it is a name used by the learned Byzantine authors when they reffer to the Serbs because the Serbs inhabited the teritories of the ancient (pre-Roman) Tribali people. Therefore, your source states that Voisava came from a Serb family from this area. Which again prooves that there were Serbs living in Polog in those days. SAPIENTI SAT!

NPOV
For the Serbian people here in Wikipedia who claim Skanderbeg was Serb, you people must understand the meaning of 'neutral point of view' and understand that this is not about Pan-Albanianism and Anti-Serbian Propaganda.

We simply don't need disputed information scattered all over the article and we definitely don't need speculation about Skanderbeg's supposed spectacular Serbian origin mentioned here. I cannot find any neutral sources that present the same theory or suppport it that he had Serbian origin. Encyclopædia Britannica is a acknowledge neutral source and in the article Skanderbeg there is no mention that he was Serb. Let us follow Encyclopædia Britannica good example regarding neutrality. And keep in mind, Wikipedia is a Encyklopedia and every contribution that are not encyklopedic, that violates the Wikipedias rule about neutral point of view, those unserious contribution will be erased.

If anyone want to know how Skanderbeg became the national hero of the Albanians look for the book Albanian Identities: Myth and History and read chapter The myth about Scanderbeg.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH

--Albanau 7 July 2005 01:46 (UTC)

Branilo
As far as I know Branilo did exist, but as a noble of the castle of Kanina, not Jannina. Kanina is near the coast city of Vlora, in south Albania. Iannina is further inland, today in northern Greece.(No, Branilo was not murdered by Thopia Highduke, looool).

As far as Skanderbeg's connection to christianity, lemme remind the serbs once again that he kicked some serious christian rear end in 1447-48 when the Venetians attacked Albania. The islamization of albanians is a separate issue that does not belong here, but I have some interesting articles that show how albanians were more vulnerable to islamization than the serbs and greeks. We could open a new thread on the albania page to discuss this. I dont know how to do this myself cause im a new member.


 * I meant Branilo Kastrioti did not exist. Sorry!

If you want something added in to the Albanian history, simply put what you want to place in the discussion page like now and we can discuss it. History of Albania Tpilkati 7 July 2005 04:39 (UTC)

Copy and pasting!
Miskin, next time you copy and paste, maybe you can provide the sources inwhich you took the words from. As I dont believe wiki policy like such... Tpilkati 04:51, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Hey, give me a break, I tried to change around it as much as I could and I was expecting others to change it too, I didn't intend to pass it as my own text. Miskin 11:44, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

The fact that Skanderbeg's mother, Vojisava, was Serbian is not disputed by any sane person.

Proving that Albanau is not a sane person who has been vandalising all neutral additions I've been making to the article. Miskin 11:50, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

From the article on the Origin of Albanians:

In ‘History’ written in 1079-1080, Byzantine historian Michael Attaliates was first to refer to the "Albanoi" as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium.

Proof that Greeks existed in Albania since the 11th century BC (and until today), probably more than the Albanians existing in Epirus. So when Skanderbeg says "Albanese" and "Epiroti", he's not talking about the same people, otherwise he wouldn't be using different names in the same paragraph would he? Point made. Miskin 12:10, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

First, Albanese is the Italian was of saying Albanians. Just go to a dictionary. The Albanian identity grew within the Despotate of Epirus, and thus Albanian often called themselves Epirotians due to this. Similar to how Ottoman idenitity grew inside Anatolia. And thus they did not tie in with the rest of the Turks but viewed themselves as older people. Now, the only people who were insulted by the Prince of Taranto was te Albanians. The translation there is quite off actually. Read the original Italian version as he makes it much clearer that he is Albanian. I have left that above. Another thing is Albanians were living in the Despotate, along with this, they never dated an invasion of it, as far back as they could remember, they had been living there. Tpilkati 18:16, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Duh, I never doubted what 'Albanese' means, nor that it's impossible that Albanians referred to themselves at some point as Epirotes, but this is completely different from what Musachi and the Albanian nationalist claim, that even Pyrrhus of Epirus and Alexander the Great or Aristotle were Albanians. Evenso, if we assume that by Epirotes he meant the Albanians from Epirus or from Albania who called themselves Epirotes due to the Depostate's rule, why does Skanderbeg differentiate between the two? Would you ever say the Albanians and the Kosovars (referring to the Albanians from Kosovo)? I think you wouldn't. The Ottomans by the way did eventually tie with the rest of the Turks, and modern Turks still do. Miskin 21:05, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Musachi claimed epirotic heritage, yet he was Albanian. Your point is unmade.

"""""Proof that Greeks existed in Albania since the 11th century BC""""""""" The way I know it there were a couple of Greek pockets(like Dyrrachium) in Illyria since the 7th century BC.

I have added two articles about islamization of Albanians in the discussion portion of History of Albania. I would ask the help of a more experienced editor on if or how they are to be incorporated.

Dyrrachium had for most part of its history been a Greek city, and its current inhabitants (like most Southern Albania) are "Albanised" Greeks. I know what Musachi claimed and for the obvious academic reasons it means jack to the truth. The very word "Epiroti" is alien to the Albanian language, corrupted form of the Greek word "Epirotes". The root word is ΗΠΕΙΡΟΣ, meaning mainland. Miskin 16:14, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Thats quite a claim, however, the Greek population of Dyrrachium had faded after the Venetians began populating the area, before then it had quite a large Roman population. It was also then taken by Albanian lords during the principalities of Albania, who then populated the area. Secondly, where is your proof that it's Albanized? Orthodox church tales? See where is says Albania on this map? See it?. Secondly, that isnt even the discussion. Musachi claimed ancestry from Epirotians the same ways Scanderbeg did. Why is Scanderbeg claim real but this fake? By the way, Anthropologically speaking, Albanians to the south only experience Grek admixtures, they are largely dinaric in look.So nope, they are not Greeks, they have Albanian features. If you trully believe Scanderbeg Albanianess is a creation of natioanl myths, I advise you to go to Italy. Calabria to be specific, and there go to the Arberesh people. Tell them what you believe and see what they say. They are theones who hold most of the knowledge of Scanderbeg, they will tell you. And by the way, obsense language is not something that is welcome here. Here is a nice letter from Albanian catholic monk, Peter Budi, to the Vatican. In it he describes the lands of Albania ready to take part in a revolt against the Ottoman Empire. Dyrrachium is mentioned as one of those inhabited by Albs. This was a couple of decades after Scanderbeg. Now if you please would stick to the topic. You are now different from Kasandri with the completely baseless claims you have now made. The conception that southern Albanians are ethnicly Greek is due to the Medieval way of thinking in Greece. That everyone who is Orthodox, is a Greek, any muslim is an Alb... A mentality that places religion as the deciding factor of ethnicity.

Tpilkati 18:16, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I have no proof and I'm not making any claims. I'm not saying that's a fact, but it's a possibility, an assumption which we can never verify. Your theories on Romans and Italians colonising Dyrrachium and eliminating the Greeks who lived there is equally hypothetical. I never said that Musachi is wrong and Skanderbeg is right, in fact I agreed with you that Skanderbeg is also wrong, but it's you (or someone on your side) who is using double standards, claiming that Skanderbeg is wrong and Musachi is right. Anthropologically speaking the Arvanites of Greece are in no way different that the rest of the Greeks of their regions, Albanians on the other hand, can be easily spotted like a fly in the milk. Does that mean that the Arvanites were Greeks? Or maybe even Albanised Greeks who retained their Orthodox religion? If you're doubting the Greekness of the Arvanites then go to Attica and ask them if their ancestors were Albanians. Let's be more realistic here. Dyrrachium was probably largerly Albanised by the time of Skanderbeg. In the 19th century religion was mathematically a factor of ethnicity (not the only of course). In the Ottoman Empire muslims and christians were forbidden to mix. Christians were allowed to convert to Islam and obtain more rights, but muslims were not allowed to convert to christianity. Hence we know for certain that the Christian population of the 19th century Ottoman Rumelia was not ethnically Turkish nor assimilated with Turks. Of course we can't say the same about the muslim populations (such as Albs). You get the point. Miskin 21:05, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I never stated the latter either. Musachi believed he decended from a people who were just like him. Obviously nonsense. But thats the impression he gives off in his letters. The Albanians believed they were serving the Despotate of Epirus since the identity had been grown within it. We are viwing Midieval mentality too much in a modern way. It does not work. -- Tpilkati 06:33, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Miskin,

Frang Bardhi (1606-1643)) is remembered as the author of the first Albanian dictionary: Dictionarium latino-epiroticum, Rome 1635 (Latin-Epirotic dictionary). Albanau 19:02, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
 * It appears Miskin canot make a single NPOV comment, from the theories of Albanization to everything else he has posted. Its just gibberish from what I have read so far.

Tpilkati 19:27, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I know about this dictionary. I never denied that some Albanians might have recognised themselves as Epirotes because of the dictionary. I told you where my objection is. Miskin 21:05, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

""""why does Skanderbeg differentiate between the two""""

When and where?

""""I know what Musachi claimed and for the obvious academic reasons it means jack to the truth""""

Once again you are being irrelevant. The truthfulness of the claim is not the point. The point is, when Skanderbeg was talkin about Epirotes he meant Musachi and company.


 * I hope you're joking. Skanderbeg was talking about Pyrrhus of Epirus, scroll up and read. Miskin 01:59, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

""""Dyrrachium had for most part of its history been a Greek city, and its current inhabitants (like most Southern Albania) are "Albanised" Greeks""""

Yep, the concept of Albanianism is just a hobby of serbogreeks who love albanizing each other. There never existed any real albanians :)


 * I don't know about that. Miskin 01:59, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

""""I'm not saying that's a fact, but it's a possibility""""

The only sure thing is, there aint no pure race in the balkans.


 * Is there anywhere else?? Miskin 01:59, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

""""but it's you (or someone on your side) who is using double standards, claiming that Skanderbeg is wrong and Musachi is right""""

Who exactly said that Musachi is right in this topic?


 * You haven't been following the conversation, now I cann't be arsed to explain to you. Miskin 01:59, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

""""If you're doubting the Greekness of the Arvanites then bla bla bla...""""

What they think of themselves does not mean they were not of albanian stock 400 years ago. BRING A DAMN SOURCE SAYING THEY WERE GREEKS AT THAT TIME. Now they have intermixed with greeks so they have greek blood, and are raised to be considering themselves as greeks, so they are greeks. You greeks come up with new definitions of what it means to be greek in order to deny the albanian origins of the arvanites. Fortunately encyclopedias disagree with your definition.

You're still not following. That was the answer to what your friend said. He suggested me to go ask the ancestors of Skanderbeg about him, and I brought up the example of the Arvanites to prove that neither anthropology neither personal opinion can prove a thing. I don't know whether Arvanites were Albanians or not, but they sure as hell weren't Greek, I can tell you that. Nobody's trying to "hide" anybody's origin, stop dreaming. Actually nobody even cares, there's not a question of ethnic minority status like it happens with the Turks of Western Thrace. The Arvanites however will claim to be different from Albanians, and not because the Greeks have told them so. Miskin 01:59, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Arvanites have intermixed with Greeks for centuries and have lost their old Albanianess, they were recorded as Albanians in original Byzantine records. However I see no reason for this to be mentions as it is off-topic and utterly pointless. They feel Greek, have fought along Greeks often against Albanians, intermarried with Greeks etc. etc., there comes point where origisn really dont mean squat anymore.


 * Exactly. And other ancient or even medieval people such as Franks, Lombards, Anglo-Saxons and Vikings, were at the time part of a German ethnos. But this is no longer the case, unless of course you can convince the English, Dutch and Scandinavians that they're actually ethnically German... :) Similarly with the Arvanites, at the time they settled in Argolid, Attica and the Cyclades, they were part of a greater Albanian (or Arvanite) ethnos, but as gradually their older Albanian dialect evolved and obtained a separate language status, they lost connection to the modern Albanian nation. Same thing happened with Slavs and Turks. It's funny how some contemporary Albanian fantasise the surviving Arvanite villages in Greece as part of an ethnic Albanian minority group. Shows what blinded and clueless nationalists they are. Miskin 22:43, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

""""In the Ottoman Empire muslims and christians were forbidden to mix""""

Thats boloni, muslim men a lot of times would marry christian women.

Not unless the woman converted, which is what I'm saying. Miskin 01:59, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

""""Of course we can't say the same about the muslim populations (such as Albs). You get the point"""""

Albos did not generally mix with turks, there were no turkish minorities in Albania. The oldest ethnological maps available show turk settlements in Greece and elsewhere, but not Albania.

Have you ever heard of the Turko-Albanians? Miskin 01:59, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

This was a religious term, being muslim meant being a Turk. Turko Albanian = Muslim Albanian, being orthodox meant being Greek so any Orthodox Albanian was seen as Greek etc etc Albania remained one of the only physically unconquered lands in the area. Catholics lived isolated from the world, muslism ruled themselves, there was no recorded Turkish colonization(The only one was in Elbasan and was taken out and replaced with Albs once Albs took up Islam). This article explains it pretty well. Now the discussion is not intermixing in the Balkans, not Arvanites and nor Albanization. When Miskin and COmpany read this, I kindly ask that this stuff be deleted due to being off-subject and irrelevant to the discussion. There is an Arvanite section... Tpilkati 06:33, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

"""I hope you're joking. Skanderbeg was talking about Pyrrhus of Epirus"""

I think he was talkin about both, I did not say he did not mean Pyrrus.

I told Tpilkati that Scanderbeg claimed descent from Greek heroes, and he replied that his claims weren't literal as this attitude was common from warlords of his time. That could be true. However it contradicts the claims of Musachi who thought Epirus was a land of ancient Albanians. Miskin 22:43, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

"""He suggested me to go ask the ancestors of Skanderbeg about him, and I brought up the example of the Arvanites"""

I think here u mean descendants of Skanderbeg and the arberesh in italy, not ancestors. The comparison of albos in italy and arvanites is false, because there is nobody that could albanize those arberesh, or their opinion of Skanderbeg.

Yeah sorry that's what I meant. The descendants of many Byzantine nobilities

What Byzantine nobilities? His talking about Albanians in southern Italy who migrated after ALbania fell. None were recorded as Greek, from all the regions of present day Albania. From Shkoder, Durres etc. etc., these families were colonized in southern italy after Scanderbeg family intermarried to nobility in Italy. Tpilkati 23:39, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

"""Not unless the woman converted, which is what I'm saying."""

No women DID NOT have to convert. I thought that was common knowledge.

They practically DID convert. They would marry a muslim, have muslim offspring and lose any connection to their christian past. What's the difference? Less Christian women and more muslim children. It's the muslim population which assimilates christian people not the other way around. Miskin 22:43, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

"""Have you ever heard of the Turko-Albanians?"""

I think this term is also for military units comprised of turks and albanians. I never read any article sayin turkalbanian refers to mixed blood.

his name
Skënderbeu, Skënder means Alexander and beu is a turkish title meaning something like lord or prince. So the phrase "In Turkish this title means Lord Alexander the Albanian," should be changed to "In Turkish this title means Lord Alexander,"

Perhaps you can also insert wiki links like Gjergj and Gjon.

The line "Skanderbeg soon switched sides" should be expanded to show that Skanderbeg escaped from the Ottomans and became a Christian again. I understand that the Ottomans called him Iskenderbeu (or something like that) but I wonder how he called himself after his escape.MATIA 13:46, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Reading the translated (in english Scanderbeg's expedition to Italy) letters of Kastriotis Skanderbeg, we see him talking about his origins:

Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies.

I think it was user Tpilkati, who mentioned those letters and gave some scanned versions of the italian. I've tried to find this passage in the scans but these are low resolutions pictures and I don't speak Italian.

I've read in the past, but I can't find online source right now that Barleti, Scanderbeg's first biographer, called him Epirot Prince and Hegemon of Epirotes.

I'm not saying that he wasn't Albanian, the translated letters probably show that he was both Albanian and Epirotis, but this information is missing from the article.

On the paragraph about descendands the wiki link Castriota Scanderbeg redirects back to Skanderbeg, this must be a mistake. MATIA 14:13, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

In these two scans (mentioned before in let's not forget! paragraph) i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/XpoFERENS/scan0027.jpg and i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/XpoFERENS/scan0030.jpg he signs his letters as

Giorgio Castrioto decto Scanderbego and Giorgio Castrioctus alias Scanderbego [the last word isn't clear]

and I think that should be also mentioned.

MATIA 14:33, 21 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I think its enough that we have Serb propagandists here in Wikipedia that are claiming that Skanderbeg was Serb, we don't Greek propagandist doing the same.
 * Epirus, Epiroti was used as synonym for Albania and the Albanians. Skanderbeg was often called Prince of Epirus, and the first Latin-Albanian dicitionary by Frang Bardhi was called Dictionarium latino-epiroticum. What Skanderbeg claim was that the Albanians were descendant to the ancient Epirotes, when he landed with his Albanian army in Italy, he said that this was the second time a Epiroti army enter Italian land. Albanau 16:44, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

If I remember correctly the letter was addressed to a governor or Tarento. Pyrrhus of Epirus was summoned by the ancient Greek city of Tarentum in order to fight back the Romans. In that respect Pyrrhus was allied with the Italian Greeks of Tarentum against the Roman barbarians. Ancient Epirotes were Greeks who fought alongside the Greeks of Southern Italy against Roman rule. Learn some history Albanau you blinded nationalists. I don't know whether Skanderbeg specifically claimed ancestry to ancient Greeks or just claimed a random local ancient ancestry as many warlords at the time used to do, but what's certain is that he differentiated between Epirotes and Albanians, he didn't consider it synonymous like you'd like to believe. The term 'Epirote' by default refers to a Greek, but it can be specified to refer to Epirote Albanians or Epirote Turks etc. Similarly the term 'Macedonians' by default has always referred to Greeks, 'Macedonian Slav' or Bulgar is a different thing. What's wrong with you poor Balkan countries trying to steal your neighbours' history? Try to claim a history that doesn't belong to you. The Illyrians for example, you can fantasise being their ancestors as much as you like, but leave Greek people alove. Miskin 17:19, 21 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Stop babbling! Talk serious. We don't need another troll and propagandist that tries to claim Skanderbeg! Albanau 17:45, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Please don't characterize me as a propagandist. Read the talk page, the notes I've made, the other things (not written by me) here that I used as reference and then check the rest of the talk page to improve and expand the article.

I understand that George Kastriotis Skanderbeg is an Albanian hero. If one of his grandfathers (My elders were from Epirus he wrote) was Greek, and the other one was Albanian does it make him less hero? MATIA 17:59, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Notice, Albania is located in Epirus Nova and Epirus Vetus! And Epiroti was synonym for Albanian as well as Epirus a synonym for Albania! --Albanau 18:28, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Arnauti means Albanian
Albanian language Encyclopedia Britannica Article In Calabrian Albanian the name is Arbresh, in Modern Greek Arvanítis, and in Turkish Arnaut; the name must have been transmitted early through Greek speech. --Albanau 18:28, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

That with Arvanites, Arnauts and Albanians is a very long story.

The other about Epirus, could be mentioned after the phrase from Skanderbeg's letters, but it should be clarified in a not pov way. And you should also mention the greek epirus. Good luck. MATIA 19:04, 21 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Matia we had some people here claiming that Skanderbeg was Serb or partly Serb, we don't need others claiming he was Greek or partly Greek. We are through with extram nationalists/propaganist people like you. Albanau 20:02, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Albanau, what we dont need is different from the truth. Turkish records mention the "Arnauti" Scanderbeg (check Ibn Kemal), thats why its in here and thats why it stays. As for Greek origins, there is no actual proof of any. The idea comes from the supposed theory that Constantine Kastrioti(believed to be a pre-John Kastrioti) was the ruler of Iamathia in Macedonia. However this is countered by the fact that records showed he ruled in District of Mat in northern Albania next to District of Krujë and that he ruled as part of the Albanian Principalities, formed after Albanian conquests of the old Despotate of Epirus. Yes I believe there is a need to differentiate between Epirus due to the fact that much of Epirus that lies in Greece fell into Turkish occupation early and was never recovered by Scanderbeg. In fact, considering the present day meaning. it would be best to be more preceice as to what Epirus ius in Discussion so I propose saying "united the Albanian tribes of the past Despotate of Epirus". Tpilkati 20:38, 21 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Tpilkati I agree... one more thing, keep an eye on Matia, he is using old Encyklopedias from 1911 and saying that Tosk and Geg is separated languages, he also claim that Tosks are a mishmash of people with Albanian, Vlach and Greek ethnicity all togheter. Albanau 21:32, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I just want to lay this out Miskin and other Greeks who claims Tosks are Greeks and Vlachs. Those Greeks who have been Albanized in Albania still retain Greek type names. For instance my grandmothers name before she got married was Pappa, these no such thing as Pappa in Albanian, but there is the common Pappas in Greek, we are all aware of her Greek origins in our family as this was rare. Another example is my cousins fiance with the last name Kondili, again, theres no such name as Kondili in Alb, there is Kondilis in Greek though. He too is aware that while he is Albanian he does have some Greek origins to him, this is vice versa for many Arvanites and some Greeks I have met in Epirus. Tpilkati 21:39, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

""""""" Constantine Kastrioti(believed to be a pre-John Kastrioti) was the ruler of Iamathia in Macedonia. However this is countered by the fact that records showed he ruled in District of Mat in northern Albania""""""""

I thought Mati derives from the word Emathia. Encyclopedia Britannica online says the father of Skanderbeg was prince of Emathia, which is impossible to be the one in Greece, cause his principality stretched to the east only to the western outskirts of today's FYROM. Greek Emathia had been on turkish hands by 1401.

A little note here, the same letter where Scani says "my elders were from Epirus" says also that from these people come the albanians. Im not saying epirotians were albanians, but I dont understand where does Skanderbeg make the differentiation between those two.

""""""keep an eye on Matia, he is using old Encyklopedias from 1911 and saying that Tosk and Geg is separated languages, he also claim that Tosks are a mishmash of people with Albanian, Vlach and Greek ethnicity all togheter.""""""

Matia does not read his own sources, encyclopedia 1911 says arvanites were albanians, vlachs and albanians rarely mixed with greeks (until the former were hellenized), fustanella is albanian, and I fail to find where does it say they are separate language, a claim which anyways would be ridicoulous since geg and tosk is different like american english and british english. A geg can definitely speak comfortably with a tosk.

Sure keep an eye on me, I am a thinking man.--MATIA 17:49, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

We were not called Arnaut, we were called Arnavutlar, which in Turkish means, 'uncarved rock'...I guess they couldn't carve us...

Admin cleanup
Scanderbeg clearly was a Serb, but he also was clearly a Greek, he also was clearly a Bulgarian, as also he was clearly a Turk. Scanderbeg must have been some 400% human, maybe a demigod. This Serbo-Greek-Bulgarian-Turk demigod one day decided to go to some inexistent Albanian subhumans and lead them on for their inexistent subhuman nation's independence and after some 25 glorious years and defeating 2 sultans, he died of a malady from hell. This demigod sent from the Mercy of Universe unto these subhumans called Albanians is clearly not an Albanian, because Albanians are subhumans by default (although even Satan Hitler disagrees with that) and cannot do such things as Scanderbeg did. Yes it is the rule. The one and unbreakable rule. Albanians are bad! So yes, lo and behold, hearken thee the whole truth, bow before the demigod that makes all Balkans claim him theirs. Super PowerRangers UltraForce the bad Arnaut.

This is one hell of a page to study how human brain cannot process facts. Candy for psychologists. Probably to be used in PhD thesis, about these peculiar Serb and Greek subjects (that clearly do not represent their nations), and their inability to reality, inability to process information. These guys seem to have a fetish of disregarding facts and sources and while they provide nothing, they just keep accusing the bad Albanians of their default evil existence. Everytime an Albanian brings facts, then he is a terrorist nationalist Atheist kamikazi ready to bomb. And what does this Atheist kamikazi bomb with... yes facts and reason, that's why Albanians are so evil.--Vlug 08:08, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

That was cute. On the other hand Albanian people here are representative of their nation. I've never seen such an delusional bunch of people. Well I suppose it's all part of the nation-building process, too bad most european nations went through it in the 19th century... :) Maybe you ought to be more concerned about the welfare and economical problems of current Albanian people, instead of trying to raise the dead ones. I'm pretty sure that contemporary starving Albanians would be more interested in some physical aid rather than exaggerated national myths. Miskin 12:05, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

A few words about Epirus
In the meantime I'm restoring the undisputed fact that Skanderbeg's mother was a Serbian princess and correcting some other fallacies. The Despotate of Epirus (undisputably a Greek state), expanded from central Greece to Epirus up until central Albania (North of Dhyrrachium). Therefore it's inaccurate to abstractly generalise its borders in the way that it was done (implying connections to the Despotate and its Albanian subjects). If for no other reason, this is also retarded because the Despotate didn't have fixed borders, so you can't use its state name pretending that it was ever bound to some geographical regions. Clear? Crystal. Now let the nationalist note that according to Byzantine maps and texts, the Despotate of Epirus was separated into two parts according to its corresponding Byzantine provinces. Those parts were: The distinction was made in the early Byzantine Empire in order to differentiate between the region of the ancient Greek Kingdom of Epirus and the Southern region of ancient Illyria that contained Greek colonies (such as Dhyrrachium). Therefore any references to the Epirote dictionary (Albanian) would refer to the Albanians of New Epirus (central Albania) and would not imply Albanian majority in Old Epirus. As a matter of fact Old and New Epirus had always had a mixed Greco-Illyrian population, with a Greek majority to the former and an Illyrian one to the latter. There's no argument for Albanians trying to claiming the history of Epirus, as there would be no arguments for Greeks to try and claim the history of Illyria or Albania, or any other place they had colonised or conquered. Furthermore the "Albanian princes" in Old Epirus doesn't imply any actual Albanian presence in the land, nor an ethnic Albanian movement (as an Albanian state didn't exist), hence Albanian claims are ludicrous. According to Hobsbawm, Greek princess were installed in Romania during its Ottoman occupation, but that in no way implies and Greek occupation or majority in the region. In the equivalent case of Old Epirus, Albanian extremism takes it to the limit. Hence I'm reverting ludicrous edits. Miskin 12:05, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Old Epirus: Geographically corresponds to the current region of Epirus in Greece.
 * New Epirus:Geographically corresponds to current South and central Albania.


 * There is no implication that the Despotate of Epirus was an Albanian state, it only tell us about the Albanian tribes of the past Despotate of Epirus who united with Skanderbeg in the fight against Ottoman Empire. This article need to be protected due to the Greek, 1, 2, and Serbian, 3, nationalist claim on the Albanian prince and hero Skanderbeg. Albanau 17:38, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

his father's name was John
Who was Skenderbeg's father? HolyRomanEmperor 20:53, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Gjon (aka John) Castriota (or Kastriot or Kastrioti or Kastriotis etc). Read the 2nd paragraph of the wiki and the section titled "name variants". +MATIA ☎ 21:36, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I heard that his father was Ivan Crnojević of the Crnojević montenegrin dinasty... Could you elaborate? HolyRomanEmperor 11:55, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Umm, where did you get that from? Scanderbeg's father was John kastrioti ruler of Mat and Amathia in what is the southern region of gegeria in Albania bordering Kruja, which he would later become ruler of. According to Late Medieval Balkans page 556 John Kastrioti was an "Albanian nobleman and Ottoman vassal". And The only official name variants are Castrioti and Kastrioti or Castriot and Kastriot. The differentiate only in the C and K. According to Italian, French and English biographies made of him.

The Georgios Kastriotis (Skentermpeis)
GEoRGiOS KASTRioTIS the named SKENTERMPEIS. ALBANIAN or GREEK?

- ORIGIN -

Grandfather of his was Konstatninos Kastriotis (+ 1390), sovereign of Imathia and Kastoria (hence the name Kastoriotis, Kastrjotis). Son of Konstantinos was Ioannis Kastriotis, the sovereign of Krougias (Kroias), with spouse his Serb wife Voisava. They brought in the life 9 children: 5 daughters and 4 sons, with last one in the line (1404) the Georgios Kastriotis.

- UPBRINGING - DEVELOPMENT - In the years of sultan Moura't the B (1421-1451) he is compelled his father Ioannis, in order to he maintains the authority in Krougja, he delivers as their hostages his 4 sons in this, which will be brought up at the Turkish habits in the Sultan court of Adrianoypolis. There, though Christians, they are  converted to Islam. Moyua't B appreciating the talents of Georgios (beauty, robustness, bravery) trains him with the successor of throne, later Mohamed the B the Conqueror of Constantinople the Sultan admiring his intrepidity, to him lent the Turkish name "Skendermpei", that in the Greek means "Alexandros ruler  or Great Alexandros". The recollection of however Krougia, the information of death of his father first and then his mother, did not leave him quiet. With the first opportunity he flees from the Turkish Army and retakes the christian name Georgjos. He marries the daughter of Arianitou Androniki Komnini, and in 1443 declares the revolution against the Turk conqueror. He releases Krougja with his 300 lads and immediately enters in her cathedral  Temple and chants himself and his warriors  Doxologia (thanks & glory hymn) to God. He orders to raise in all the castles the bicipital eagle with background purple as his emblem, that was, what other despite, the martial flag of Byzantium. He used to wear the ancient Greek Macedonian helmet with the double horn. A battle follows the other in order to it keeps free his Province from tyrants. He dies on 17 January 1468, in age of 64 years from fever that was caused by malaria. He was buried in the Temple of Saint Nicolas in the Alessjo (ancient Lissos). He succeeded his son Ioannis Kastriotis.

- NATIONALITY -

The struggle of Georgios Kastriotis were struggles of an Orthodox Christian leader against the Turks in order to it keeps the Province free. He was Epirote Greek, as irrefutably declares the following Historical Sources, that they constitute monumental documents : •	The Marini Barletii, his first Biographer from the Skodra (beginnings 16th AD), him calls "Epirote prince" and "Sovereign of Epirus", while entire biography is reported only in Epirotes and never in Albanians. •	Also, himself Georgios Kastriotis addressing to the sovereign of Taranta Ioannis Antonio and giving out his origin and his genuine feelings, writes(in greek of course): "my forefathers were Epirotes from which Pyrrhus rose  that only the Romans could push back “. •	Similarly as a descendant of  Epirotes  and not of the Illyrians  he mentions in his letter to the Italian Ursini in 1460. •	Still to the King Alfonso, monarch of Aragon, Naples and Sicily he writes(in greek of course): "The shining and mighty king Alfonso, monarch of Aragon, Naples and Sicily Skenderbeis hails and wishes well ". •	Speaking in the presence  of  the Pope Paul B he stresses: "After the subjection of Asia and Greece, after the slaughter of her hegemonic spawns of Constantinople, the Trapezounta ... and the desolation of biggest part of Macedonia and Epirus, against  the savage conqueror that seeks to ruin the cross the cross, and elevate on the Capitol the crescent and fulfillment of slavery of all the world ... alone i stand  with the relic of my soldiers and with my small territory...". •	He had Greek Education and spoke the Greek Language, after by his Letters were sent written in the Greek language. •	Moreover the All Turkish biographer of Ali, Ahmet Moyfjt, writes for Georgios Kastriotis: "in the year 1443 he escaped from the Ottoman camp of Morava the Greek sovereign Kastriotis and went to the seat of his ancestors, the Kroia". •	 Italian, English and Swedish reports consider Georgios Kastriotis a Greek. Thus Italian A. Salvi in the tragedy of (1718) he mentions him as a Greek (Greco Georgios Kastriotis). The English C. Randall in 1810 him calls Greek Hero (Grecian Hero) and the Swedish Barrau initially and Rudbeck later (1835) considers the Georgios Kastriotis a Greek. •	The History of French of historical Paganel (Paganel: Histoire de Scanderbey), that was published in Paris in 1855 about him says he is evidently a Greek. •	Want also a Albanian admission of Greek Epirote origin of Georgios Kastriotis The Albanian stamp of 1968, supplementing that year 500 years from his death, presents the cover of mentioned before History of Barletii, that is entered in this clearly, that was Epirote prince (Epirotarum Principis) and not Albanian or Illyrian. It writes the cover: "HISTORIA DE VITA ET GESTIS SCANDERBEGI EPIROTARUM PRINCIPIS". •	Consequently, equitably Danish Franz Nte Zesse'n, military correspondent of the newspaper "Le Temps of" Paris, doubts for the Albanian origin of Georgios Kastriotis, stressing in his lecture: "Question is, if also this Georgios Kastriotis is able to be considered Albanian, after he was  son of Greek  of Ioannis Kastriotis and of a Serbian princess ". Finally

The History proves effortlessly the Greek character of Georgios Kastriotis. Any effort of forgery and falsification of History comes an hour that is revealed and debunked. Because, "the great truth always predominates" (A ' Esdras 4,41).

Parents?
Well, according to my sources, John Kastrioti was Skanderbeg's grandfather - and from his mother's side, who was an Albanian Princess - daughter of Kastrioti. His father was Ivan Crnojević (Иван Црнојевић) - he named him Staniša (Станиша) and dispatched him in 1482 to Istanbul as a mark of his acceptence of Ottoman rule - where he became Skender and adopted full Albanian nationality prior to his return to Albania. --HolyRomanEmperor 13:48, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

My Two Cents
I'm not surprised at all that this subject has generated so much controversy. First of all, let me just say I am from Albania, born and raised (I now live in the United States). Problems concerning the identification of major historical figures have plagued all nations throughout the Balkans; Albanians have just as much a right to be angry when Macedonians or Serbs claim Scanderbeg belongs to "them" as much as Macedonians have a right to be angry when Albanians make claims that Alexander was Albanian simply because his mother was born in Epirus. Silly things like this go on all the time, and often there's a profusion of nationalism that greatly overshadows genuine historical work.

There's much that I don't like about this article, but I'm not going to make any changes because this isn't an issue that requires pluralism and debate; simply put, we will never agree on this and emotions are way too charged. So I will let whoever has the real power to have their say. "Cowardly" will say some, but people in the Balkans have torn each other's throats for this kind of stuff (literally and figuratively), so excuse my desire not to repeat the process. One thing that I do find amazing about this talk page is the still strong and combative Balkan spirit; glad to see that hasn't gone away, cuz we sure could use more of it (sarcasm, for those of you who aren't into jokes)!

I just want to make one suggestion. Even if granting the point that Scanderbeg was a major historical figure in "Epirus" (a ludicrous charge, and one that's almost too astounding to even challenge), we have to keep in mind that historically Epirus hasn't belonged exclusively to Greece, as this article implies. The article now states that Epirus is a "province of Greece," which is correct, but geographically the region of Epirus is used to historically pinpoint Southern Albania and Northwestern Greece. You would think somebody would've picked this up and corrected it, but I can see the "historians" among us have far more important tasks.UberCryxic 02:27, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Let's stick to the facts: father an Albanian lord and mother a Serbian Princess. (http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/SAR_SCY/SCANDERBEG_or_ISKENDER_BEY_14o3.html). --HolyRomanEmperor 23:06, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Kastriotis was a Pure Greek name
THE RISE OF ISKANDER by Benjamin Disraeli

2.1 "Iskander was the youngest son of the Prince of Epirus, who, with the other Grecian princes, had, at the commencement of the reign of Amurath the Second, in vain resisted the progress of the Turkish arms in Europe."

2.3 The despots of Bosnia, Servia, and Bulgaria, and the Grecian princes of Etolia, Macedon, Epirus, Athens, Phocis, Boeotia, and indeed of all the regions to the straits of Corinth, were tributaries to Amurat

2.4 His Turkish education could never eradicate from his memory the consciousness that he was a Greek

2.14 Had Iskander been influenced by vulgar ambition, his loftiest desires might have been fully gratified by the career which Amurath projected for him. The Turkish Sultan destined for the Grecian Prince the hand of one of his daughters, and the principal command of his armies.

3.12 A guard of honour, by the orders of Karam Bey, advanced to conduct Iskander to his presence; and soon, entering the pavilion, the Grecian prince exchanged courtesies with the Turkish general.

4.26 Soon the officer returned, and, ordering the guards to disarm and search Iskander, directed the Grecian Prince to follow him.

4.37 Iskander bowed lowly as the officer disappeared. 4.38 "And now," said Hunniades, "to business. Your purpose?" 4.39 "I am a Grecian Prince, and a compulsory ally of the Moslemin.

We could continue with several identical quotes from Disraeli's book that clearly depict him as Hellinic.. I'll just add my favorite :

6.11 Troops of armed men were charging down the streets, brandishing their scimitars and yataghans, and exclaiming, "The Cross, the Cross!" "Liberty!" "Greece!" "Iskander and Epirus!" The townsmen recognised their countrymen by their language and their dress. The name of Iskander acted as a spell. They stopt not to inquire. A magic sympathy at once persuaded them that this great man had, by the grace of Heaven, recurred to the creed and country of his fathers. And so every townsman, seizing the nearest weapon, with a spirit of patriotic frenzy, rushed into the streets, crying out, "The Cross, the Cross!" "Liberty!" "Greece!" "Iskander and Epirus!" Ay! even the women lost all womanly fears, and stimulated instead of soothing the impulse of their masters. They fetched them arms, they held the torches, they sent them forth with vows and prayers and imprecations, their children clinging to their robes, and repeating with enthusiasm, phrases which they could not comprehend

Source: http://www.ibiblio.org/disraeli/iskander.pdf

Addition of Pictures
I added two more pictures, but I am not sure if the position is fine. --Tarawneh 04:37, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

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Disraeli's work is a work of fiction.

""The Rise of Iskander makes no attempt to be historical""

http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:f6T0QHWAXSEJ:www.elsie.de/pub/pdf_articles/A1993Disraeli.pdf+disraeli+skanderbeg+fiction&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2&client=firefox-a

More In the 15th century several independant princelings called "Despots" by the Greeks, were in possetion of the rich and populous district of Albania, which stretched along the coast of the Adriatic and Mediterrenean sea and corresponds geographically to the Epirus of the ancient. One of the noblest of these chiefs was John Castriot....

shopper2.123city.net/SponsorAds/586-855-1476/1263_scanderbegcatholic-world1876.pdf

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====================================== Contra Castriotich

Clarification of the debate of Scanderbeg's ethnicity:



my latest edit
One editor added the signature "INFO (By Andi VL)", other editors removed the last paragraphs of the article - I don't know what to say. I did those edits and I 'll might add some stuff later. talk to +MATIA 09:42, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

the text from 1911
SCANDERBEG, or ISKENDER BEY (1403-1467), known also as the Dragon of Albania, the national hero of the Albanians, was the son of John (Giovanni) Castriota, lord of Kroia and of the Mirdite country in northern Albania, and of a Servian princess named Vaisava. His actual name was George (Giorgio) Castriota, and the name of Iskender Bey (Prince Alexander) was given to him by the Turks in complimentary reference to Alexander the Great. In 1423, when Murad II invaded Epirus, George Castriota, with his three brothers, was handed over as a hostage to the Turks and sent to be trained in the service of the seraglio. His brilliant qualities of mind and body at once gained him the favor of the sultan; he became a Mussulman, was promoted to high military command and, though barely nineteen years of age, to the government of a sanjak. He remained in the Ottoman service for twenty years, dissembling his resentment when, on the death of his father, his principality was annexed and his brothers poisoned. In 1443, however, his opportunity came with Janos Hunyadis victory at Nish. He seized Kroia by stratagem, proclaimed himself a Christian, and gathered the wild Albanian clansmen about him. In the inaccessible fastnesses of Albania he maintained a guerilla warfare against the Turks during nearly twenty-five years, easily routing the armies sent against him, and is said to have slain three thousand Turks with his own hand. In 1461 Murads successor Mahommed II. acknowledged him by a temporary truce as lord of Albania and Epirus. He died in 1467 at Alessio, and his tomb was long the object of a superstitious veneration on the part of the Turks.

Scanderbegs resistance to the Turkish advance was invaluable to the cause of Christianity, but the union which he had maintained in Albania did not survive him. He was succeeded in Kroia by his son, Giovanni Castriota, who in 1474 sold the principality to the Venetians, by whom four years later it was re-sold to the Turks.

See Georges T. Petrovitch, Scander-beg (Georges Castriota); Essai de bibliographie raisonnee; Ouvrages sur Scander-beg crits en langues francaise, anglaise, allemande, latine, italienne, &c. (Paris, 1881); Pisko, Skanderbeg, historische Studie (Vienna, 1895). talk to +MATIA 09:55, 23 March 2006 (UTC)