Talk:Slater Rhea/Archive 1

Notability
I've made some serious cleanups to this article to bring it to WP:MoS standards, as well as removing some particularly egregious examples of peacock terms, unsourced statements (such as performance of jazz and singing in Mongolian), and reworded other sentences and phrases that violated WP:NPOV. Even so, I doubt that this article's subject can establish WP:Notability to warrant an article, and I'd like to reach out to the article's creator, and another editor who previously added maintenance tags for comment.

My concerns with this article's notability stems from several points:
 * It fails WP:Artist. The article doesn't mention any significant achievements for a notable singer, such as the release of records and/or singles, famous and or well-attended series of concerts or tours, or receiving/being nominated for any national or international music award. Instead, the subject is notable for singing on a few television programs and bantering with talk show hosts over the word "biang".


 * There is a lot of name-dropping in the article. Notability is not inhereted, so the fact that Rhea performed for so-and-so, or was on TV with so-and-so, does not help establish notability.


 * Likely fails WP:GNG. There simply isn't significant coverage of the subject. Of the five English-language on-line sources provided, three are the same article, and one is a video with a one-line caption. Of the five Chinese articles that aren't dead links, only three are unique articles. There appears to be artificial inflation of the amount of published sources by using duplicate articles as citations. In addition, of the offline sources, two of the sources are written by the subject himself.


 * Lastly, I think that there is a WP:SPIP concern here, where the main editor is very likely the subject or closely related to the subject in some manner, based on the highly promotional writing style present in the article before my edits. --haha169 (talk) 13:01, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Hi,, I disagree with basically everything you've written here, and I consider most, if not all of your contributions to this page vandalism. Because I was interested in creating a thoroughly researched article on this subject, I did my best to research online, including in the newspaper archives of the subject's hometown, where I found many sources, a couple of which were written by the subject in the local paper many years ago. These don't establish notability, but add additional details I thought relevant to a wikipedia article on the subject. This subject meets the notability standard of entertainers being on many television shows, something you seemed to think needed to be deleted in the first paragraph. He is notable for being on numerous national TV networks, all of which you deleted. Not every sentence in an article needs to establish notability, and the fact that I added interesting information isn't incorrect and doesn't need to be deleted. The subject has been reported in multiple English- and Chinese-language sources, including several that are major outlets. That some outlets have picked up information from others and I cited those in addition to the others adds to the article because those are still third-party, reliable sources. That information is picked up and run by additional reputable sources doesn't invalidate them. You've mentioned that there are "particularly egregious examples of peacock terms," but not listed any here, as well as "unsourced statements," but the one example you list is actually from multiple sources. Finally, I have no direct connection to the subject aside from being aware of and interested in his career and thinking this is a worthy and notable article needing to be written; I've always wanted to write an article from scratch, and I'll grant you this one can use some work, but this is not a bad article and the subject is notable. Spidermanoftherings (talk) 14:31, 27 March 2018 (UTC)


 * , thank you for your prompt response. I'm going go through all of my edits and justify them if you so wish. I didn't think it needed to be done, but so be it:


 * Removed the list of TV stations he's performed on --> lack of sources for any of the appearances except for Jiangsu TV and CCTV.
 * Removed "regular performer and commenter" --> this is not cited, having a collection of sources listing his appearances constitutes as WP:OR ("This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources.")
 * Removed "Holding dual master's degrees in China Studies and International Politics" -> not sourced what Rhea's degree is
 * Removed "met and entertained high-level diplomats and leaders of the U.S. and China," -> no source that he met them, only performed for them, and none of the leaders are Chinese
 * Removed "is known as a "Musical Diplomat" -> this is not in the source
 * Rewrote the section with "cultural ambassador" to make it sound less WP:Peacock
 * Removed "among numerous other ambassadors and consuls" -> not in the source
 * Removed ", whom he considers a major influence" -> more of a stylistic reason really, I feel like it interrupts the flow but if you want it returned, go ahead
 * Removed the fact that Rhea performs in Mongolian, American jazz, and rock and roll (unsourced in the given citation, despite what you may claim)
 * Removed "which he is able to perform with native-level fluency" -> can read Chinese and can not find this anywhere in the article
 * Added a citation needed template to the following statement: "Rhea often sings North Shaanxi folk songs, which he first heard and fell in love with on his first visit to China."
 * Removed "China's premiere foreign-language university" -> WP:Peacock, just mentioning his affiliation with the university is enough
 * Removed the extraneous list of food the Rhea likes to talk about (except biang biang noodles). This isn't notable or related to his career as a singer.
 * Removed the amount of strokes the character "biang" has in both simplified and traditional, unnecessary
 * "Rhea made front-page news in Shaanxi" -> WP:OR, there is merely an article, no mention that it was front-page news
 * "where he was first singled out to sing solos" -> no source of him being "singled out", only that he sang solos
 * Lastly, some WP:MoS cosmetic fixes, like removing Chinese names in wikilinks, removing high school from infobox, the bolding of Chinese names in the lead, and the names of headers, etc
 * Lastly, some WP:MoS cosmetic fixes, like removing Chinese names in wikilinks, removing high school from infobox, the bolding of Chinese names in the lead, and the names of headers, etc


 * The stuff that were removed are in no way "qualifying material". Much of what was removed may be "cited", but the relevant information is simply not in those sources. Other fixes are just the removal of irrelevant facts. Of course, this is a matter of debate but the number of strokes in biang is hardly relevant, only that it is complex. Other fixes are completely uncontroversial, such as minor edits to comply with WP:MoS. By wholesale reverting everything, without bothering to engage in discussion first is smacking of WP:OWN. --haha169 (talk) 15:03, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

, some of the above are acceptable edits, and I certainly don't claim to own the article, but you made so many edits in quick succession (as well as reorganizing the article sections), with snarky language, and I find your core assertions in your initial post to be incorrect and unfounded. Thank you for listing these edits; I'd like to respond to several of them. Others, as you say are trivial and don't need to be specifically addressed. This is a piece written in good faith and I will protect it against vandalism where that seems likely. Having a positive/nonjudgmental attitude helps in genuinely improving this and any other article. Spidermanoftherings (talk) 15:16, 27 March 2018 (UTC)


 * I may have been hasty in judging the article. I still stand by all of my points, but a better way of delivering the message would have been to start with the smaller issues and build up. Let's start from this: please challenge any of the above edits that I made to the article, and list those that you believe are acceptable, and we will move from there. --haha169 (talk) 15:24, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Hi, I've gone through all of those edits you've listed and addressed each one below. One issue is that I forgot or misplaced a source I used before, and I've added it as reference #4. Thanks for your time and help with this article, which I appreciate.


 * Removed the list of TV stations he's performed on --> lack of sources for any of the appearances except for Jiangsu TV and CCTV.

Reference #7 lists CETV: "Recent appearances have included the China Learning Spring Festival Gala on CETV-1 (China Education Television)"

Reference #4 (just added) gives the whole list; I tried to find where I had cited this, but it wasn’t actually in the reference list before, so I’ve added it. I think this listing (I also know video links exist for many if not all of these; can add if you think necessary) contributes to the subject's notability as an entertainer.


 * Removed "regular performer and commenter" --> this is not cited, having a collection of sources listing his appearances constitutes as WP:OR ("This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources.”)

See reference #4.


 * Removed "Holding dual master's degrees in China Studies and International Politics" -> not sourced what Rhea's degree is

This info is in at least one source, reference #7: “Slater enrolled in graduate school at the Johns Hopkins Nanjing Center (the China campus of the School of Advanced International Studies) where he earned dual master’s degrees in international politics and China Studies and wrote and defended a 100-page thesis in Chinese."


 * Removed "met and entertained high-level diplomats and leaders of the U.S. and China," -> no source that he met them, only performed for them, and none of the leaders are Chinese

Again, reference #7 says he met Albright and lists the other named individuals: "he has performed for ambassadors, consuls and other high-level diplomats and officials from both China and the U.S., including former President Bill Clinton, former U.S. Ambassador Max Baucus and former Secretary of State Madeline Albright. He counts Albright, whom he met when he sang for the 30th anniversary of the Hopkins-Nanjing Center, as a mentor and cheerleader. "She was extremely gracious and told me I had the gifts to become a cultural ambassador between our countries."

Reference #4 says he met them all.


 * Removed "is known as a "Musical Diplomat" -> this is not in the source

I’m sure I read it, but can’t locate just now. I’m fine with removing it if you like, as "cultural ambassador" is sourced.


 * Rewrote the section with "cultural ambassador" to make it sound less WP:Peacock

This was from reference #2, and it’s also mentioned in those that picked up that original story, references #1 and #3: "The Chinese people call him a young George Clooney, because of his trendy hair color, and they consider him a cultural ambassador."


 * Removed "among numerous other ambassadors and consuls" -> not in the source

See the above quote from reference #7.


 * Removed ", whom he considers a major influence" -> more of a stylistic reason really, I feel like it interrupts the flow but if you want it returned, go ahead

Also in reference #7, quoted above. I think the quotation about her influence is actually relevant, but I didn’t include for flow reasons.


 * Removed the fact that Rhea performs in Mongolian, American jazz, and rock and roll (unsourced in the given citation, despite what you may claim)

The Mongolian part is in reference #7: "With an uncanny mastery of the Chinese (Mandarin and Shaanxi dialects) and Mongolian languages”

Others are listed in reference #4, just added.


 * Removed "which he is able to perform with native-level fluency" -> can read Chinese and can not find this anywhere in the article

This is referenced in reference #4; updated that citation.


 * Added a citation needed template to the following statement: "Rhea often sings North Shaanxi folk songs, which he first heard and fell in love with on his first visit to China.”

Is this not in the 华商报 article? It may be in a piece I read about his appearance on 中华情. Is the show video usable as a source? It was certainly discussed.


 * Removed "China's premiere foreign-language university" -> WP:Peacock, just mentioning his affiliation with the university is enough

OK, just mentioned something that’s talked about on that university’s wikipedia page and in other articles. I’ve given citations there, but if you have a big complaint with it, I don’t see why it’s so necessary.


 * Removed the extraneous list of food the Rhea likes to talk about (except biang biang noodles). This isn't notable or related to his career as a singer.

As I mentioned before, not all information in an article must itself be notable. I think this gives the article more meat and it is true. The subject is known as a “吃货” and that’s a big part of his persona.


 * Removed the amount of strokes the character "biang" has in both simplified and traditional, unnecessary

Yes, unnecessary.


 * "Rhea made front-page news in Shaanxi" -> WP:OR, there is merely an article, no mention that it was front-page news

There is an image of the front page article at one of the sources I found, and it was a major spread, on the opening day of a major government conference. But I’m not married to it if you think it really must go.


 * "where he was first singled out to sing solos" -> no source of him being "singled out", only that he sang solos

Is that not the definition of being chosen to sing solos? Being singled out? My point was that he first took to the stage in this fashion, being identified by local music teachers and the like as a talented singer. But this is really a minor edit.


 * Lastly, some WP:MoS cosmetic fixes, like removing Chinese names in wikilinks, removing high school from infobox, the bolding of Chinese names in the lead, and the names of headers, etc

The High School is notable, and including one there isn’t unheard of, right? Is it stylistically incorrect to include Chinese character names in parentheses where just the pinyin rendering of those names might be somewhat less specific or preferred? I included 朱军 because there are other notable individuals with the same pinyin, and Leo Ku because he isn’t known by this name in China, where the show I mentioned was aired. I’m interested in your thoughts on this in general, because I like editing China-related articles and would like to hear your thoughts on the standard if there is one on the English Wikipedia. I think listing pinyin or preferred romanization and also giving the characters in parentheses adds to specificity. Best wishes. Spidermanoftherings (talk) 16:26, 27 March 2018 (UTC)


 * I'm not going to touch on everything right now, just going to leave a quick reply. Here is the main problem -- you need to map the correct citations to the correct information. You say, for example, that reference #7 lists Rhea's Mongolian singing (still waiting on the jazz and rock verification). The accompanying source for that information in the article is reference #3, which says no such thing. They need to be mapped correctly in the article, or someone else may come along in the future and note the same concerns as I did.


 * Regarding manual of style, I've already made these fixes, but since you reverted them I'm calling on you to do it yourself:


 * You will find that HS-level education is not listed on the infoboxes of any biographies on Wikipedia. This is not the norm. (refer to, Emma Watson, Barack Obama, Natalie Portman, Theresa May). It is notable; put it in the prose (as it already is) instead of cluttering the infobox.
 * You will also find that Chinese characters do not accompany the pinyin name on any article. (refer to, Xi Jinping, Tsai Ing-wen, Jackie Chan, Bo Xilai)
 * Again, the Chinese characters in the lead need not be bolded (see MOS:FORLANG)
 * Citations need to be outside of parenthesis and punctuation, but without a space (take a look at WP:PAIC for examples)
 * Section heading name guidelines state (WP:MOSLAYOUT): "The usual practice is to name and order sections based on the precedent of some article which seems similar." Yes, there can be diverging styles among articles based on context, but among Level 1 headers a general standard has been agreed upon across biographies. For this article, a section called "Childhood and education", and another one called "Career and media appearances" would be appropriate. I strongly suggest you follow this. (Also, only the first word in headings are capitalized unless they are proper nouns).
 * These are the uncontroversial bits. I'll discuss other problems at a later time.--haha169 (talk) 17:01, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Hi,, I've made all of the changes you list here, except for the section re-ordering, since I'd like to take a bit more time to assemble the new section you mention. Thanks for your constructive and helpful involvement on this article. Spidermanoftherings (talk) 17:44, 27 March 2018 (UTC)


 * , I made a few more minor edits on things that we already agreed on. Also one more major one because of copyright violations. There are a few more uncontroversial things that need to be done, and then I'll move on to the more potentially contentious issues with the article.


 * Firstly, with the sources:
 * References #2, #3, #6 are duplicates, please combine per WP:DUPCITES
 * References #8, #20, #21 are duplicates, please combine per WP:DUPCITES
 * References #22 (deadlink), #25, #27 are duplicates, please combine per WP:DUPCITES
 * References #19 and #22 are dead/redirect
 * References #23 and #24 are WP:OVERCITE
 * "often used to comic effect", I changed it in my first reverted edit and I forgot to point it out. This is not sourced (the two citations are the same article). It is also difficult to quantify "often" so it violates WP:WEASEL. "Comic effect" and the recital of the mnemonic poem are also not in the Chinese citations as far as I can find; as such, I've gone and changed it.
 * Rhea being a "commentator" on music is not supported by the sources


 * Secondly, I would like to challenge a few more superfluous details (WP:TMI):
 * The lists of food is still unnecessary. Per TMI, "Wikipedia is not supposed to be a collection of every single fact about a subject." Rhea's notability has been established as a singer, not as a foodie. Only biang biang mian has been established across multiple sources as something worth discussing on.
 * (one of the ‘Eight Strange Wonders of Shaanxi’), again too much detail. Maybe could we weaved into the prose better without standing out much, but I honestly can't see how.


 * Thirdly, the third paragraph in the lead was a copyright violation (WP:COPYVIO of this article, so I've rewritten it and merged with the first paragraph. Just letting you know. (The list of TV stations is also somewhat of a copyvio of the same article, and I've gone ahead and edited it).


 * Lastly, this paragraph is very wordy (WP:BECONCISE):

He graduated from the Louisiana School for Math, Science and the Arts in Natchitoches, Louisiana before attending the University of Oklahoma as a National Merit Scholar, where he earned dual bachelor's degrees in Chinese Language and Literature and Asian Studies. He attended the Johns Hopkins University-Nanjing University Center for Chinese and American Studies in Nanjing, China, where he studied, wrote and defended a 100-page thesis in Mandarin and earned dual master's degrees in China Studies and International Politics from Johns Hopkins University and Nanjing University while first pursuing his TV career on Nanjing-based Jiangsu TV.


 * Here is an edit that convey the same information in less words:

Rhea graduated from the Louisiana School for Math, Science and the Arts in Natchitoches, Louisiana before completing his undergraduate degree in Chinese language and Asian studies at the University of Oklahoma as a National Merit Scholar. He then attended the Hopkins-Nanjing Center in Nanjing, China, where he earned an M.A. in international politics, while simultaneously pursuing a TV career on Nanjing-based Jiangsu TV.


 * --haha169 (talk) 01:54, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Hi,, I think a lot of what you suggest makes sense to do, and as you can see, I've agreed or followed your lead on most of what you've done or suggested, particularly re: MoS, etc. Also, thanks for rewording that paragraph. I didn't intentionally use it word-for-word from the source. At least one of the sources you list as dead is working for me (reference #19); possibly because I am in China, and some links work here that don't work elsewhere or if you are using a VPN. Not sure where you are, but that has been my experience. As you say, not every fact about a subject needs to be included in a Wikipedia article, but this is not the problem here, and this is not a long or bloated article. Rhea is an entertainer, notable for frequent appearances on TV shows many of which are talk or variety shows. I don't see how details from show content are excessive or irrelevant. I can add some show link sources from CCTV and other networks' shows (videos) that include some of the details you think are currently unsupportable. Also, I will figure out how to merge the sources you've listed above. Spidermanoftherings (talk) 04:00, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
 * , please follow the reference numbers from this edit, the numbers change as sources are moved around. One of them is a duplicate anyway. Okay, I'll move the WP:DETAIL concerns to the next section of contentions issues that I will bring up at a later time. --haha169 (talk) 05:03, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Break 1
Sorry if my comments have seemed brash. I had a very bad first impression with the promotional writing style of the article, but you've taken concrete steps to address those issues and I appreciate it. I still have concerns regarding the detail of some aspects, but if everything listed above the break are fixed (don't miss out on my final comment just above the break), I think the article will be in much better shape. The only other thing, and this may be pedantic, but lecturer =/= university professor, the latter has a connotation of being a well-established and published academic, usually with a PhD. and holds titles in their academic institution. A lecturer is much lower on the academic rung, and I think the distinction is important to make.

Besides this and my suggestions from above the break, I will debate the merits of my other concerns with you later. Thank you for taking my suggestions into consideration! --haha169 (talk)

Hi,, thanks a lot for your cordial demeanor and assistance with this article after we got off on the wrong foot. I hope to make this a really quality article, which was my aim from the start, but first efforts are what they are, I guess. I've made some of your above suggested edits already, but I'm unsure on the combining of sources step. Should I just keep the earliest instance of the source material and delete others? Or is there a way to retain the link to the material while merging them into a single citation? I'm a bit at a loss on this step. A friend of mine is considered a professor, has a PhD, etc., but holds the 'rank' of lecturer, so I'm a bit unclear on the exact way that works. Anyway, I went ahead and took that out of the infobox, since it really is unrelated to Shuaide's notability, so I think superfluous there? Anyway, if you can point me to a blurb or tutorial on the merging of sources, I will take care of that ASAP, as well as add a couple other sources I found as well as go over the whole text to do a fresh copyedit. Best wishes! Spidermanoftherings (talk) 14:19, 29 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Regarding merging sources, I would suggest just choose one (such as The Seattle Times), and replacing all of the duplicates with that source.


 * As your goal is to improve the article to a "quality article" status, such as WP:GA, I would suggest you take a look at some other biographical GAs on Wikipedia and gain an understanding of the kind of scope you would need. You're going to have to do more research in the Chinese sources to explain more deeply the types of Shanxi folk music Rhea sings (among other things), provide an overview of professional critic reviews on his performances, any releases (discography, singles, etc). The inclusion of these things would make it easier for you to argue that seemingly (to me, at least) superfluous information is worthy of being included -- after all, in a comprehensive article, reading a bit of trivia might be interesting, whereas when that trivia is part of a small article it stands out as a sore thumb.


 * Waylon Jennings, Gillian Welch, Solange Knowles, and Lisa Hannigan are all good articles that have the general organization structure of a strong and comprehensive musical biography. Try taking a look at the kinds of information there and shape your research focus around looking for that sort of information. --haha169 (talk) 02:38, 30 March 2018 (UTC)