Talk:Slavic paganism/Archive 1

Untitled
I removed the sentence: "In Bohemia, shortly after the country's official Christianisation in the late 9th century, a popular anti-Christian rebellion broke out." It is nonsense. There was nothing like "popular anti-Christian rebelion" in Bohemia.

Blood sacrifice of the Slavic Peoples
See the conversation here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Human_sacrifice#Blood_sacrifice_of_the_Slavic_Peoples

older comments
Hello everyone. Part of the problem with this page is that it attempts to combine MYTOLOGY and SLAVIC RELIGION, which aren't the same thing. Also, calling my religion a mythology is pretty offensive to begin with.

I don't doubt that characters from folk tales have some religious aspect to them, since Slavic Religion recognizes the spirit in everything. At the same time, there is clearly a distinction of fantasy in certain later mythological beings who have little to do with a feeling of religiosity and are merely elements of litterary immagination or embelishment of stories.

I would like to see the articles of Slavic Relgion and Slavic Mythology separated. For one, Slavic Relgion is undergoing a contemporary phase where folk beliefs that have survived through the centuries are being separated consciously from the Christian add-ons and are holding a life of their own.

This is quite similar to what happend in Japan in the late 1800s, when indiginous Shinto beliefs were separated institutionaly and culturally from Buddhist traditions that had gotten so fused in the common people's minds as to become one and the same Temple in the villiage. This is much like the Churches and Shrines in Russia combine elements of Slavic Religion, and Orthodox or Catholic priests pay attention to Holy Trees and Groves.

All of this, however, has nothing to do with Mythology, and belongs in a Slavic Religion article of its own.

70.19.134.162 08:22, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it might be a good idea to combine all place spirits (wodjanoj, domovoi, bannik, leszi, ovinnik, etc.) into a single article fashioned after Slavic fairies. The individual articles seem to be almost identical. The only differences are the realms where these spirits rule. Alternatively, a unified format for their description should be adopted. Please comment. --Gene s 06:55, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * As the person who created the joint article on fairies, I can't agree more :) It doesn't make sense to have N trivially different articles. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93;


 * I agree with this Slavic faeries article, but don't think that every creature should be in it; only elf-like creatures. While other kinds of creatures might have their own articles which need not be limited to slaws only; it might be useful to join domovoi and brownie, for example, under, say "home spirit". Nikola 09:13, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Can you list what you believe is appropriate to merge? Like a list: wodjanoj, domovoi, bannik, leszi, ovinnik
 * --Gene s 09:35, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I was refering to tomte, haltija, brownie and domovoi. Nikola 11:28, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * What you are saying is a bit different from what was proposed. The original proposal was regarding slavic place spitirs only. Are you objecting to a proposal to have a single article with say, domovoi, ovinnik, and polevik? If yes, please explain why. There seems to be no salient difference between, say bannik and domovoi, except one is in the main house and the other is in the bath house. Maybe I miss something? --Gene s 11:40, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * If we have what is obviously a same creature which is known under slightly different names and related to slightly different customs, I think that it is good to join all articles about it into a single article. If you think that non-Slavic creatures should be out of it, it's fine. But I don't think that different creatures should go in that article only because they are somehow similar. Perhaps bannik could go, but leszi - "small woodlands elves who protect wild animals" surely shouldn't. Nikola 14:53, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

So guys
I'm quite new to the Wikipedia and for that reason I assume I might have made a little blunder. It was not intentional though. I spent last couple of days giving my best to merge the articles Polish mythology and Slavic mythology (they desperately needed it). I did it somehow, although it's hell of work. And finally I put redirect on the Polish mythology page, so it no longer exists. Now... I see somebody was eager to delete the result of my work and put back the old article Slavic mythology. All the same to me, I should say, don't give a nickle. BUT - pitty for those who spent their time in working on the Polish mythology article.

Would somebody that worked on the Slavic mythology page please make an effort to explain who he is and what is his relation to Slavic paganism, cause being a pagan myslef for the last 8 years I'm known to quite a lot of people, but I know none of you. I'm asking this question, cause when reading the Slavic mythology page, one has this nasty feeling that the author was not too much aware of what he wrote about. Do you know it - that feeling you have when you receive too much new info in too short and it all messes up your head? I bet this is exactly what happened with one of you guys.

For example - Troyan (Triglav)= Svarog+Perun+Svetovid??? Well, nothing so strange if latter three co-existed... ever. But they didn't. East and South Slavs had Svarog and Perun in their pantheon. Baltic Slavs though had Sventovit (NOTE S.V.E.N.T.O.V.I.T - no D at the end) - the four-faced god. And as you are supposed to know, this Sventovit was Baltic Slavic hypostasis of both Perun and Svarog, to some extend Dajbog and maybe Mokosh. Get what I say? Wherever you have Perun and Svarog, you don't have Sventovit and where you have Sventovit you don't have first two. That's why they could have never co-existed in divine Trinity such as Troyan. On the other hand Troyan was overseer of the three worlds - Prav, Yav and Nav. This is why he represents their three masters - Svarog, Perun and ... ofcourse ... VELES. If you doubt this - read Nestor's chronicle.

-- I'm not sure that Triglav could not consist of Sventovid, Perun and Svarog, because after vast migration of West Slavs to Novgorod Veles was sometimes replaced by Sventovid in Triglavs as he was mostly known only to East Slavs.

This was just one of the many nonsenses you put on the page. It's not shameful when you do mistakes, nobody's perfect, but it's shame when somebody fixes your mistakes and you angrily put them back again. Think about this. Ogneslav 22:44, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Welcome to wikipedia! I think I can explain what happened. I compared the versions and noticed that you deleted quite a bunch of information: "god of pigs" and the likes, without any explanations, and substituted with your text. Please keep in mind that unlike, say, geography, mythology is a subject in which some facts are very hard to verify. What is more, you were editing as a non-registered user. Unfortunately, in huge number of cases these are pretty irresponsible editors and often vandals. Now that you acquired an identity, we can talk to you (or your avatar, whatever).
 * So, the first question is: what was wrong with the "god of pigs" and other ones suffered from your edits? Mikkalai 22:36, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * P.S. You can easily sign your comments by typing four tildas ( ~ ), and this will produce something like this: "Mikkalai 22:36, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)"
 * So, welcome again. I see, you are not discouraged. If you are going to be an active contributor, it is time for you to start reading wikipedia policies, available, e.g., from Community portal. Good luck, Mikkalai 22:36, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Problems with Slavic mythology articles
There is a number of problems with articles on Slavic mythology and religion on Wikipedia and with study of it in general which I will try to outline. When there was small number of articles and when they were not too developed, this was not too important as they could cover only the most basic facts, but now when they are getting more numerous and longer and when there are more interested contributors, the problems are becomming apparent.

There are two main problems: that sources on Slavic mythology are very scarce, and that modern writing on the topic is very enthusiastic. We have little sources about old Slavic mythology. What we don't know is reconstructed, and the reconstructions are, of course, disputed; that is, when original sources don't disagree as well. These reconstructions are then taken by people who write on basis of them as if they are the only ones. For example, Ogneslav writes that supreme god was Rod. Frankly, it is the first time I've ever heard of him. I looked into a book on Slavic religion which I happened to have, written by Henryk Lowmianski, and it claims that Rod is simply word for "demon". Now, I don't say that Ogneslav is wrong, and I am certain that he has another book in which he read that Rod was the supreme god. However, how to know which sources are relevant or which are not is, well, at least I don't see how is it possible. The Internet isn't of much help when writing on this topic because of this.

A thing which is often overlooked is diversity of old Slavic religion. Not all gods had same functions among different peoples or even in the same people in different times, or, indeed were revered at all. So, when stating something as simple as "Veles was god of the underworld", it must also be stated:


 * which Slavs considered Veles the god of underworld
 * when did they do that

But these things are practically never stated. Also, when is something "god" or mere "deity" or "personification" or perhaps only a "force" is very open to interpretation, and of course it could be all of that at the same time among different peoples or at different times among the same people. I am quite certain that Mesets is only personification of Moon, for example.

I am beginning to think that maybe most articles should begin with "According to some interpretations..." Nikola 12:18, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Removed creatures

 * Little Humpbacked Horse - It is from a well-known Russian literary fairy tale "Konyok-Gorbunok" by Yershov, hence hardly classifies as "mythology". Mikkalai 20:05, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Nikola, why are you being sarcastc? If we both going to fight each other trying to fit through a tight door, it will take whole lot of time and someone more than often will simply quit either volontarily or not. I'm saying that that's an empty arguement to keep commenting. Mikkalai is right. If you'd like to edit someone's article, the correct way would be to inform the original author about your intentions and provide some references. Besides, you, personally, don't have to write the whole thing, but rather abbriviate it with IAW (in accordance with;). To say that you've been a pagan for the last several years sounds very lame unless you a certified one. I can say that I'm J. Bond. If you think you're right about anything use this discussion block to get your point accross. If you're posting an information, which is very interesting, it'll be a nice courtesy to provide a source where you got the information - not especially for a prove, rather someone might be interested. I really would like to see this article get enriched with every day. I'm an eastern Orthodox and from what I've read so far I see some parallel with the beliefs of my ancestors. Besides, I think the Slavic mythology is no worse than the British counterpart, which was spectacularly shown in of the recent big movies. There should be something more native and for me. --Grigoryev 02:36, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Olexa Dovbus`
Olexa Dovbus` is a semi-mythical figure or rather a real person. He was a huc`ul, if I'm not mistaken. He was a Carpathian freedom fighter in the area around what is now Ivano-Frankivs'k region. He fought polish szlachta, after some of them killed his druz`inu(wife) and burned his house. I actually visited a place of his hideout, which is a memorial place where series of excursions take place. He is consider to be a legend of whom there is no written evidence though. I'm suspecting that Polish szlachta purposely got rid of any evidence of him to prevent farther precedents. Therefore a lot of people think of him as a myth, but thankfully the local population preserves a memory of this great Ukrainian legend.
 * &#1057;&#1083;&#1072;&#1074;&#1072; &#1074;&#1110;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1110;&#1081; &#1059;&#1082;&#1088;&#1072;&#1111;&#1085;&#1110; - &#1043;&#1077;&#1088;&#1086;&#1103;&#1084; &#1089;&#1083;&#1072;&#1074;&#1072;

P.S. I suggest to remove this person from this page. --Grigoryev 14:48, 12 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Why would a semi-mytihcal figure be removed from a list of semi-mythical figures? Nikola 07:52, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Candidate for pantheon inclusion
I was wondering whether the The Zorya should be included in the pantheon listing. --DHThomas 09:20, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Improvement Drive
The article History of the Balkans has been listed to be improved on This week's improvement drive. You can add your vote there if you would like to support the article.--Fenice 17:18, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Revision suggestions
The main Slavic mythology article is in pretty poor shape. The information displayed is, at best, dubious and fragmentary, and at worst, incorrect and drawn from very suspicious sources. I think the whole article should be revised based on the following scheme.


 * Sources - there are three type of sources for study of Slavic mythology, and all should be listed.
 * 1) Historical Records of contemporary Christian authors (Procopius, Saxo, Helmod, Primary Chronicle, etc.).
 * 2) Archeological findings of several statues of Slavic gods unearthed so far, which confirm the informations of historical sources.
 * 3) Folklore - folk customs and songs, fairy tales, etc., which hold elements of long forgotten mythology. IT SHOULD BE CLEARLY STATED THAT FOLKLORE ITSELF IS NOT MYTHOLOGY!!! Folklore may or may not hold elements from pre-Christian belifs, which may or may not originate from ancient Slavic paganisam itself, but even if they do, those are long-forgotten and frozen fragments of ancient mythology, whose true meaning and symbolism has been long forgotten by people who still sing/recitate/perform them. Philologists, ethnologists and mythologists today have developed keen scientific metodhologies through which they can look for, compare, connect and interpret these fragmentary remains of old mythical texts in folklore. It is a slow and slipery work, but progress is being made. But the worst mess in the field of Slavic mythology was created by unskilled, uncritical and, in a word, disastrous interpretation of folklore during 19th century, when every sprite, dragon, monster or witch of fairy or folk tales was immediately turned into ancient pagan diety. Gods such as Belobog, Radigost, Koledo, Lado, etc., are pure inventions; there is no evidence whatsoever they were ever worshiped by ancient Slavs.
 * Concerning this, a fourth type of sources should also be listed: 4) Fabrications - here it should be explained how, due to the enthusiasam for study of Slavic mythology which continualy waxes for almost 500 years by now, many romantics, neopagans, unskilled scholars, etc., had a tendency to simply invent old gods, folk songs/stories with mythical allusions to strong to be real, or even entire mythical texts. Book of Veles should be mentioned here, and it should be stated that even though Slavic neo-pagans venetrate it as their holy book and an original record of ancient Slavic mythology, the authencity of the book cannot be proven, and almost all serious scholars of Slavic mythology consider it to be a very bad forgery.


 * Festivals - a basic overview of ancient Slavic calendar as reconstructed by Rybakov should be mentioned, together with studies of several ancient festivals by Ivanov, Toparov, Belaj & Katacic.

Ghirlandajo-both articles you pointed out speak about East Slavs, not whole Slavic group...We shouldn't create the belief that East Slavs=Slavs.Their beliefs and culture do not cover the whole group. --Molobo 23:33, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Gods - instead of supreme god or unified pantheon (both of which likely never exsietd in Slavic mythology), a general overview should be given for each of three main groups of Slav nations: South, East and West, since different gods appear for every of them. Slavic mythology was far more cultic and local in nature. Several theories about periodization of Slavic mythologies could also be listed.
 * This is the only point where I have to disagree. I don't think that Slavic tribes, who were speaking the same language a millenium and a half ago, had highly localized mythology. As for unified pantheon, at least one attempt to frame such a pantheon is described in the Primary Chronicle, see the article on Saint Vladimir for details. --Ghirla | talk 22:40, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but this is untrue. Primary Chronicle's reference to Slavic paganisam describes events in 10th century Kievan Russia, which is a loooong way from an unified Proto-Slavic pantheon that, in theory, existed in a single Proto-Slavic nation centuries (or even milenia) before that time. We have no historical (or even archeological) records of mythology from a single Proto-Slavic nation. The earliest known reference (and thus possibly the closest to this hypothetical original pantheon) would be a short note made by Procopius in 6th century, who described (some) belifs of certain South Slavic tribes who at that time migrated south of Danuabe river; this possibly happened quite recent after the dissolution of original Proto-Slavic nation somewhere in the north. But in any case, the only serious approach to study of Slavic mythology is to examine belifs which evolved amongst all three groups of Slavic nations; East, West and South. They may, overall, not look so different from each other, but they differ significantly enough that you cannot just pile them up and proclaim them to be an unified Proto-Slavic pantheon. -- Hier0phant 09:34, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with your approach, but "a single Proto-Slavic nation" hadn't predated Vladimir's reforms by millenia as you seem to suppose. The Slavs remained fairly homogenous until the 5th century and, as regards the northern groups, for a considerable time thereafter. Before their expansion was triggered by the Völkerwanderung, they are supposed to have inhabited a very limited territory as compared even to their Baltic neighbours. --Ghirla | talk 10:04, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Until 5th century, yes, but there was additional 5 centuries from that time until Vladimir; that is still a lot of time. As for northern groups, try to compare pantheon/gods described in Primary Chronicle with those given in Thietmar's, Saxo's or Helmod's writings for the West Slavs of aprox. same period. You will hardly find as much as two same gods. --Hier0phant 10:39, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The three chroniclers you mention were proseletyzing Germans and couldn't care less about Slavic pagan deities, I think. RPC should be given more credit on the matter IMHO. But that's only me. --Ghirla | talk 11:14, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
 * True to a point, that with these sources, one must always be careful. But these sources do offer some pretty valuable information about West Slav mythology; overall, they acctualy contain more information about festivals and customs of ancient (west) Slavs than RPC. Furthermore, since sources in general about Slav mythology are sparse, we cannot allow ourselves to be picky and dismiss geniune refrences simply on ad hominem arguments. --Hier0phant 11:35, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
 * As for unified pantheon, at least one attempt to frame such a pantheon is described in the Primary Chronicle, see the article on Saint Vladimir for details.

- I'm not sure that Jarilo (Ярило) is correctly mentioned as a moon god - no material that I'd come across mentions it. On the contrary many articles talk about Jarilo as spring sun(shine).


 * Characteristics - customs, or pecularities of Slavic mythology, the most notable of which would be 'policephaly', (the worship of gods with many heads (faces)); furthermore, dualisam as suggested by Peisker and reconstructed by Ivanov & Toporov, belif in a World Tree, holy fire, burial customs, methods of prophecies and festival customs as described by Saxo and Helmod, etc. Also, connections with other IE mythologies should be noted, particulary similarities with Baltic mythologies.

The lists of gods, magical creatures and locations should come then. --Hier0phant 19:21, 3 January 2006 (UTC)


 * This is a laudable program worthy of a featured article candidate. I pledge every kind of support to an editor who would aspire to pull the article from the current quagmire of speculations and/or falsifications. --Ghirla | talk 22:40, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Great care should be made towards the article.We should remember that the notion of "Slavs" is in itself a bit of fabrication in order to categorize a very broad and diverse group of people with different history and local customs. So we should not confuse readers into believing that something like strongly unified Slav group ever existed when it comes to culture, beliefes etc.--Molobo 23:30, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Ghirlandajo that this proposal looks very good. Unfortunately my knowledge of this subject is very limited, but I'll try to help anyway I can.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 02:46, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I started expanding the article based on the scheme proposed above. I would be grateful if some of you gentlemen (or women) helped me by checking my spelling and grammar, for English is not my native language, plus that I type fast and therefore am bound to make many mistakes :( --Hierophant 21:27, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Merges
I have merged the Crossroads in Polish mythology and Divination in Polish mythology articles into this one. I would further like to merge the Fire Flowers, Ladanki, The Magic Belt of Poland, and Spoiling in Polish mythology into it as well. aliceinlampyland 23:40, 31 January 2006 (UTC).
 * These articles have been merged as well. aliceinlampyland 12:51, 3 February 2006 (UTC).


 * I see that these are "merged" by turning them into redirects, and so now their text doesn't appear in any other article. I think they should be brought back somehow. Nikola 22:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

East Slavs aren't all Slavs
I added info that the chronicle is about East Slavs.Obviously they do not represent West or South Slavs. --Molobo 14:23, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Please stop trolling. Nobody claims otherwise. You arbitrarily remove all mentions of "Slavic" in the East Slavic contexts, while keeping the same epithet when it alludes to West Slavs in general and the Poles in particular. If your aim is to marginalize the East Slavic evidence, you will fail in your designs. The most authentic data on the proto-Slavic pantheon is contained in the Primary Chronicle, and that's a fact. --Ghirla | talk 14:46, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Ghirlandajo but your continued alllegations that I am aiming at pushing some ideology are competely unfounded. If you desire I can gladly change slavic to West Slavic in proper places. Furthermore :The most authentic data on the proto-Slavic pantheon is contained in the Primary Chronicle is questionable. As to the whole "Slavic" thing I think was later blown out of proportions by ideologies exploiting a simple linguistic background, and sadly some remaining traces of those movements are propagated even today.... --Molobo 15:05, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

In line(suggestion)
With Ghirlandajo's arguments I suggest we rename all mentions of Slavic(which are appropriate only to hypophetical proto-Slavic group) to proper names as the context of the information suggests. That is:East Slavic, West Slavic, South Slavic. Only if something is something is found among all Slavic grouops it should be named Slavic. We shouldn't confuse readers into believing that West Slavic, South Slavic or East Slavic beliefs or cultural traits are found in all people with Slavic origins, or that there exists anything such as common Slavic identity. Also is some trait is found only among specific group-it should be named as belonging to that specific group. --Molobo 15:12, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Please understand that, for most purposes, this particular article deals with common Slavic mythology predating the dissolution of the Slavic continuum. If you claim that there were no common Slavic gods a millenium and a half ago, you will be reverted. Please don't underestimate the common heritage of all the Slavic nations in order to propagate your anachronistic anti-pan-Slavic agenda. --Ghirla | talk 15:21, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

If you claim that there were no common Slavic gods a millenium and a half ago, you will be reverted It doesn't seem so from the article, as it states that there were several differences between various groups.This should be noted.Or are you suggesting East Slavs had the same beliefs and traditions as South Slavs and West Slavs or vice versa ?

 Please don't underestimate the common heritage of all the Slavic nations This seems highly POVish statement-may I know what is the common heritage of Poles, Russians and Sorbs that links them today ? It would make an interesting article if it were true-unless of course these are minimal links that POles have for example with English, Arabs or Germans who all contributed to Polish cultural heritage. --Molobo 15:36, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

''in order to propagate your anachronistic anti-pan-Slavic agenda '' You have a panslavic agenda ? Sounds disturbing, after all It was known for its Russophile views and antiPolish stance. I hope you are not serious. --Molobo 15:27, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I think I have already suggested that we first desrcibe the various gods that were worshiped by each of three major Slavic groups, East, West and South, and then write about probable structure of unified proto-Slavic pantheon. I belive this approach is the most appropriate and correct one. On the one hand, one cannot deny that gods such as Perun, Veles, Dazhbog, etc. are very ancient and were known amongst all Slavic tribes; therefore, there almost certainly did exist a single proto-Slavic pantheon. On the other hand, Slavic religion was probably very local and cultic in character, with various tribes having various gods. For instance, Svantevit and Triglav were major gods of West and South Slavs, but are unknown amongst East Slavs. --Hierophant 17:54, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I concur. --Ghirla | talk 18:01, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

'' On the other hand, Slavic religion was probably very local and cultic in character, with various tribes having various gods. For instance, Svantevit and Triglav were major gods of West and South Slavs, but are unknown amongst East Slavs.'' And that is why I suggest to name such belief East or South or West Slavic, if they are not part of the hypothetical proto-Slavic culture. --Molobo 18:13, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Further suggestions
I am more-less finished with re-writing the main article on Slavic mythology, and, if I may be so arrogant to add, I think I've done a superb job. Took me longer than I though it will, the final article is lenghty, but on the plus side, Slavic mythology now has one of the most through, detailed, and, in a word, best articles of all mythologies represented on wikipedia.

Now that I'm done boasting, I belive the article still needs some revision. First of all, it would be nice if all the links to various topic of Slavic mythology and folklore were reorganised. A tempate should be made, which would list, in various lines, the major gods, the minor gods, mythical heroes, mythical creatures, spirits, etc, similar to templates that Greek or Nordic mythology articles have. Schematization of all material is quite important, IMHO, because to someone who has no knoweledge of Slavic mythology whatsoever and visits this page, it should be clear from start that, for instance, Perun does not exactly fall into same category as Vodanoy; one is a major god of ancient pantheon, the other spirit or witch from much later folk tales.

Also, it would be nice if we had more pictures than merly that black-and-white Zbruch idol and Bilibin's Baba Yaga. At least, it would be nice if we had an original picture under a section of Cosmology, when a world tree concept is explained. Now I know there are various medival pictures, particulary in Russia, which decipt the concept of world tree (despite the fact they were created long after Christianization), and it would be nice if someone could contribute a photo, a scan or at least an over-drawing of such a picture.

Finaly, somehow, preferably following some logical organisation of article, the main part about mythology should be connected to to the Themes in Folk Practice at the bottom. Truth be told, I don't know much about Slavic folk beliefs so I'd rather wouldn't mendle with that. Perhaps another subsection should be made in the main article, after the lenghty overview of mythology, something like 'Slavic folk belifes'. Or should a Slavic folklore have an article of its own? --Hierophant 00:06, 17 February 2006 (UTC)


 * You've done a great work indeed. I will think what can be done about illustrations. See the gallery of images I added to Ivan Bilibin for some ideas. Slavic folk beliefs is no mythology, they deserve a separate article. Your other suggestions sound very reasonable to me. --Ghirla | talk 09:54, 17 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, at least for now we have a template that should link all articles concerning Slavic mythology, Template:Slavmyth It's not much, but it'll do. I made it after a similar template for Norse mythology articles, so I now I give my thanks to whoever made the original one, and hope he doesn't mind I borrowed some of his design elements. ;O). --Hierophant 21:45, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Books
I was wondering, as I'm quite interested in Slavic mythology, especially anything about its earlier forms, if someone here know of the best books to buy to get some good(with not too many errors, as I don't know enough about it to separate myth from fakelore) info on Slavic mythology, and as well as of the current discussions around the topic, as to get a idea about the general consensus. I've noticed, as with Celtic mythology, that there are frequent misunderstandings around the percieved role of the various deities and spirits, especially because of many overzealous national romanticists, as well as Neopagans(but take note, to any that belong to the beforementioned, that I do not have anything against either group). I've looked around for a number of books, but I'm not sure what the best ones to get are. It would be nice if, atleast one, contains info that show how various deities and spirits are connected to other Indo-European cognates and counterparts, and if it contains any archaeology(as I'm going to study anthropology, I consider at least some archaeology a must). I'm particulary interested when it comes to deities such as Perun, Veles and Chernobog. And preferably not any of those heartattack-providing 100$ tomes. :D Any help is accepted. Thanks in advance.

Also, another thing. As previously mentioned, there seems to be many made of stories and deities, largely as a result of the frantic(and mostly useless) efforts of two particular groups, which have resulted in a large body of fakelore. I think that it would be wise to mention some of the more common erroneous beliefs(such as Leda and Belobog) in the fakelore article. Satanael 21:50, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Few remarks
Dear all, Firstly, I hope you are aware that the Eastern, Western and Southern Slavic subgoups are a result of geographic neighbourhood after the great migrations, that is, from the 6th century onwards. Secondly, this article is too much Russo-centered and rather represents the Russian mythology (all due respect). It should be specified what is understood under 'Slavic Mythology', whether it is a synchronous description of the mythological beliefs among the Slavs, or a diachronous attempt to recover the lost Slavic Pagan religion (which itself was not a solid system like the Greek or Scandinavian religions). In either case, this article is too much Russo-centered. I see almost no mentioning of the South Slavs, no word of the Czecho-Slovaks or just a few about the Polabians/Pomorians, who remained Pagan until the 12th century. While the South Slavs are not a good source to recover the names of high-rank Pagan gods, since they first came into contact with Christianity, their folklore is quite abundant in terms of customs and beliefs in various kinds of 'low level' good or evil spirits, especially among the Orthodox Serbs (with Montenegrins) and Bulgarians (with Macedonians). Thirdly, the transcription of Cyrillic letters... Only the Serbs and FYR Macedonians do it properly. There is a more or less internationally accepted transcription of Slavic (and Proto-Slavic) names, which Russians, Ukrainians, Bulgarians and Byelorussians do not know but should learn in order to stop inventing orthographies of their own. I will put it here for the Russian and Church Slavonic languages, in Cyrillic alphabetical order: Russian: A, B, V, G, D, E(*last I know there is no need to put JE after vowels), Ž, Z, I, J(*note: Y is used to mark jery and I is not used for "i kratkoe"), K, L, M, N, O, P, R, S, T, U, F, CH, C, Č, Š, ŠČ(*when together represent the letter Щ), --(* tvërdyj znak iz just omitted), Y, '(*mjagkij znak with apostrophe), E, JU, JA. Church Slavonic, Proto-Slavic: A, B, V, G, D, E, Ž, Z, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, R, S, T, U, F, CH, C, Č, Š, Ъ or Ŭ, Ь or Ĭ, Y (*for ery), Ą or (Lithuanian) OǪ (*for back nasal, big jus), Ę (*for front nasal, small jus), Ě(*for jat).


 * The article is not Russo-centered at all. I suspect you did not read it quite well because then you would see quite a few resources which speak about South Slavs and West Slavs, including Serbs, Czechs and medival Poalbians/Pomorians. Slavic mythology was indeed not a solid system (as was no mythology in the world, including Greek and/or Scandinavian), but a group of beliefs and cults which varried from one tribe or nation to another, depending on local and historical circumstances. Thus, it is specified that under 'Slavic mythology' we understand all beliefs and religious customs of Slavic tribes/nations priori to Christianization; this, I belive, is plainly obvious to anyone who reads the article. --Hierophant 23:21, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * What sort of Scandinavian religion are you talking about? There is Germanic paganism, and Scandinavia is to it like, say, Southern Slavic states are to Slavic paganism. I'd say Slavic paganism is even more united than its Germanic counterpart. --217.172.29.4 (talk) 16:19, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Ladanki
im deeply confused as to why the page on Ladanki is redirected here, to an article that doesn't even include a mention of it in its text.

A request for help
I am working on the Elijah page. We have a section in which this appears:

"As Elijah was described as ascending into heaven in a fiery chariot, the Christian missionaries who converted Slavic tribes likely found him an ideal analogy for Perun, the supreme Slavic god of storms, thunder and lightning bolts. In many Slavic countries Elijah is known as Elijah the Thunderer (Ilija Gromovnik), who drives the heavens in a chariot and administers rain and snow, thus actually taking the place of Perun in popular beliefs."

There is no reference for this information. Does anyone here know anything about Elijah and Perun? Or, do you have any references for anything like this? Thank You ThomasHartman 00:54, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Regarding references
While the article seems pretty good (to the completely ignorant such as myself), a few more inline references for specific discussions and paragraphs would be useful. Every sentance doesn't need a reference, but there are only three inline refs currently and about 20 more references/bibliography items listed. --Rocksanddirt 16:49, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Book of Veles and Neopaganism
I have modified the statement that "Slavic neopogans venerate the Book of Veles..." to "Some of the Slavic neopagans venerate the Book of Veles". The first statement was untrue, because not all Slavic neopagans hold BoV to be true and sacred. In fact, there are some, who consider it authentic, and some, who do not; the second group consider it a forgery, as most scientists and scholars do. In my private opinion, majority of Polish neopagans considers BoV as a fake book. Ask anybody in a forum of Polish neopagans, such as RKP ( http://rkp.pl ), RBI ( http://rbi.webd.pl ) or Rodzimowierca ( http://rodzimowierca.prv.pl ). Regards, Critto —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 17:35, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Needs to be more precise
There is a difference in level of importance to pre-Christian mythology in various post-Slavic states. For instance in Poland it is rather harmless not-much known fringe folklore without any importance, mixed with folklore from Germany, Lithuania etc, that doesn't serve any serious role in society. In other countries like Belarus or Russia it seems to have more importance to people's identity. Perhaps this should be noted in the article, to explain to reader that their is no unity in importance or even role of those beliefs. Also they are taken too much together, their is a considerable difference between various regions.--Molobo 02:46, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Merge?
Maybe someone should merge this article with Slavic Neopaganism, or atleast put some of that in here? For some reason I've never come across the Slavic Neopaganism article, it seems to be well hidden.--Kolia. 18:13, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

It used to be at Slavic Neopaganism, but was moved to Rodnovery in May. --dab (𒁳) 12:25, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Split?
created a fork at Slavic polytheism (which I've redirected back here for the moment). The split can certainly be argued, but it needs to be done cleanly, separating the "religious" from the "mythological" material discussed here. I am not sure it's a good idea, the article here seems to be doing fine as it stands. --dab (𒁳) 12:28, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Hey. I thoroughly support the devision of the two, and am the one that instigated it. The reason is that the religion of "Slavic paganism" (or "Slavic polytheism") refers to the religion, whereas "Slavic mythology" refers only to mythology. Religion and Mythology are two very distinct things! Religion refers to the beliefs, practises, cosmology, mythology, and history of the Slavic peoples. Mythology merely refers to the mythology. I think that we should either rename this page as "Slavic paganism", or "Slavic polytheism", or "Religion of the ancient Slavs", or something like that, or, even better, reserve this page purely for the mythology, and create a new page for the religion as a whole. I'm sure in only one edit on each oage we can make a clean cut between the two. For an example, there are two completely seperate articles for Religion in ancient Greece and Greek mythology. (Midnightblueowl (talk)#)


 * sure, the articles can be separate, but it's not as simple as you make it sound. If it is to be done properly, this will take an experienced editor who knows about the topic at least an hour of work. Until somebody volunteers to do this properly, I suggest it's better we have one good article instead of two broken ones. Frankly, your contribution to paganism topics so far have been decidedly ill-advised, and you clearly have created more work for other editors cleaning up after you than would be justified by your actual additions. Please try to constrain yourself a little, ok? --dab (𒁳) 17:38, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately I know very little about Slavic paganism, though I do plan to research the topic. Hopefully then we can begin this procedure. The only reason I have been responsible for so many alterations to these articles is that the vast majority of them are of somewhat large importance and yet have sat around in a very sorry state for a good number of years. On talk pages people had suggested clean-up years ago, with little or no action taken. I took that action. My edits weren't always perfect by any means, but I did have the time to do it, which no one else seems to have had. For instance, look at the Celtic polytheism page today, and compare it to how it was before I made any changes. If I may say so, it is far more concise, far better organised, with more pictures, more references, and far easier for the average reader now. That was largely (though not exclusively), because of the many hours that I put in. I don't mean to cause trouble for other editors, I just feel that because some of my initial changes caused problems because of lack of references etc, I have been given a bad name, and automatically anything I do is looked upon as damaging. This clearly, to anyone who actually looks at what I have done, is not true. I am more than happy to work with you, and others, to make this split as careful and as planned as possible, but please, don't just think of me as a problem editor who doesn't know what he's doing. I do. I'm just industrious, and many people believe that that is the same as destructive. I don't want to sound upset or angry in any way, and I'm not, I just really hate the way that editors have seen my edits and then gone around deleting all my work without examining what I have done and why I have done it. Thanks for your time, I look forward to working with you so that all these articles can be brought up to scratch as soon as possible.(Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:16, 23 October 2008 (UTC))

Calendar
I find the statement "The year was apparently lunar, and began on the first day of March, similar to other Indo-European cultures whose old calendar systems are better known to us." to be unclear. One, if the year was lunar, the first day of the year could not always be the first of March. I'll change this to "began in early March". I would like someone with more knowledge to add detail as to how exactly they calibrated the lunar months with the seasons. Did the months start on the new or full moon? Was the first month based on the closest full moon to the spring equinox, or the first one after, or something else? Or, if unknown, to state that. What, exactly, are the other, "better known" old calendar systems? The only one I know of is the Coligny calendar, whose year started in November.

Also, it would be clearer instead of "spring festival" and "middle of summer" to state the month because neo-pagan seasons are different than modern ones and one can never be sure on Wikipedia where the author is coming from. ;) I would assume the "spring festival" was in early May and the one in the "middle of summer" was in early August, but cannot be 100% sure. thanks, 67.168.59.171 (talk) 00:59, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The Calendar of Old believers("pagans") was similar to Baltic calendar; the week (t(i)eden / t(i)edan) included 9 days (and not 7); where the sacred, last number 9(DEVet) represented the DEVA or "Divine" (godly) day of the Axis Mundi and also "9th world"(seek sources in Slovenian poem about Kresnik ("enliven one") god. The 9th world was common also among Norse people, who knew "Ygdrasil". The 9 was probably representing the "shape of the universe"(dimensions) (constellations around the "Mountain of the Gods"; "osi" (axises) or Norse "As-es", gods). The word "moon" in slavic is called "M(i)esec", which also represents the name of the month, so we can conclude that Slavs knew also lunar calendar, counting ("čislo").

In some regions of Prekmurje & Mežimurje (Slovenia & Croatia), there were people also counting days in "kvatres": source(in croatian language) http://hrvatskimitovi.com/narodna-vjerovanja/kvatre/

Translation
In the Folklore traces section, I altered the translation of razbija (originally translated as "[s/he] hits") to "reduces to rubble". I was also debating "destroys", since razbiya is a much stronger word than simply "hits", but I went with the first because it similarly carries connotations of destruction, especially of something constructed. Strela is more difficult since it means "lightning strike" as well as "arrow", although I left it as simply "arrow" for the time being. Kamen - do any of the sources make reference to toča (hail)? That would seem to fit with a destructive thunderstorm. - Tenebris
 * The world you are looking for is "Sunders" or "Shatters"99.236.221.124 (talk) 07:05, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Sorry to write it here; as i couldn't find right place to write. Please look at the similarity between Bhrahmi Script (India) & Ancient Salvic script, they look so similar. This may help to decipher Salvic text in future.

Brahmi Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmi_script 139.5.242.47 (talk) 22:19, 28 April 2020 (UTC)