Talk:Slavonia/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: TonyTheTiger (talk · contribs) 20:46, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

I guess I should learn a bit about Croatia. I'll see what I can learn reviewing this.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:46, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for taking time to review this article. I am confident the article quality will improve as a result.--Tomobe03 (talk) 21:06, 3 June 2012 (UTC)


 * WP:LEAD
 * Currently the LEAD is 4176 characters of readable prose. It should be no longer than 3200 characters and preferably under 3000. --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:15, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Shortened by about 1000 characters. I'll take another look at that later on to see what else can be trimmed there.--Tomobe03 (talk) 14:25, 6 June 2012 (UTC)


 * "although the territory of the counties includes Baranja," seems ungrammatical, but maybe I am not understanding. --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:15, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * That sentence is meant to say that definition of borders of the geographical region varies - it is presently generally identified with five counties in the east of Croatia, but one of those counties includes Croatian part of Baranya (region). Some sources, including Croatian Bureau of Statistics do not distinguish the area from Slavonia when reporting GDP, harvested crops or population, etc. sometimes applying term of Eastern Croatia to the five counties as well. Slavonia as a region is generally considered to contain further microregions, including transborder ones, such as Syrmia, and no statistics are normally published for such microregions. A similar situation exists in the west of the region, where exact extent of Slavonia varies and for instance cities of Novska and Daruvar are sometimes considered a part of Slavonia mainly because they were a part of the Kingdom of Slavonia in the 18th and the 19th centuries. Conversely Pakrac is sometimes though of as a part of Central Croatia - but nowadays most sources in Croatia treat the macroregion of Slavonia as corresponding with the five counties.--Tomobe03 (talk) 16:14, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Alternate names belong in the LEAD (bolded and hopefully supported by the proper redirects). We want readers to quickly know if they are on the page they are looking for.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:15, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Added and bolded.--Tomobe03 (talk) 08:14, 6 June 2012 (UTC)


 * The first sentence of the 2nd paragraph needs some dates. --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:15, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Added dates (centuries) for reference - exact years are impossible to source--Tomobe03 (talk) 16:30, 5 June 2012 (UTC)


 * What percent of Croatia's population does this region host? --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:15, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Added population and territory percentages--Tomobe03 (talk) 16:30, 5 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Shouldn't you say something about the languages and religions that dominate this region?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:15, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Granted, that information was not in the article - I added that now to one of the sections. Since those are not that surprising, i.e. mostly Croatian language is used, would it be better to leave out of the lead (and not add more to it) or would it still be preferable to include it there?--Tomobe03 (talk) 16:28, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I will have to read the article and understand the socio-political importance of these percentages. You present them towards the end of paragraphs suggesting they are not an important thing for this region of the world. In some regions ethnic or theological composition is extremely important to an understanding of the region. Here it might not be.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:12, 6 June 2012 (UTC)


 * History
 * The first sentence seems a bit long and possibly runon. --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:24, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Restructured, retaining all information.--Tomobe03 (talk) 13:26, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Something still seems ungrammatical (as I substitute parentheses for mdashes in my mind). Are the mdashes parenthetical?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:39, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I changed it a bit more, indeed there was a confusing bit I overlooked before. The em dash ahead of South Slavs living in the area of the former Illyricum is intended to set off the quoted bit from the rest of the sentence as a summary of descriptive phrase ahead of the em dash.--Tomobe03 (talk) 15:10, 6 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Prehistory and antiquity
 * "the most significant cultures whose presence was discovered include the Starčevo, Vučedol and Baden cultures" can you add "from the Xth Yth and Zth centuries, respectively" or something similar. --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:30, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Added dates (years).--Tomobe03 (talk) 14:28, 6 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Middle Ages
 * "Tomislav was the first ruler of Croatia who was styled a king in a letter from Pope John X, dating the kingdom of Croatia to 925." Do you mean
 * Tomislav was the first ruler of Croatia that was styled a king in a letter from Pope John X. The letter thus dates the kingdom of Croatia to 925.
 * Tomislav, the first ruler of Croatia, was styled a king in a letter from Pope John X&mdash;dating the kingdom of Croatia to 925.
 * Tomislav was the first ruler of Croatia. He was styled a king due to a 925 letter from Pope John X&mdash;dating the kingdom of Croatia to 925.
 * Tomislav, the first ruler of Croatia. He was styled a king in a 925 letter from Pope John X, thus dating the kingdom of Croatia to 925.
 * As it is, I am having a bit of trouble determining the facts of the sentence. Are you pointing out he was the first ruler, the first ruler style a King, the first ruler styled a King by a Pope. I assume the letter was dated 925. --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:11, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I tried to clarify the sentence. Tomislav was not the first ruler of Croatia, but he was the first to be styled a king (earlier on they were styled dukes). The document of use of the title, and the date, is a letter from Pope John X.--Tomobe03 (talk) 15:42, 6 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Bans? Is there a relevant link? Why single quotes here? --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:11, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Added a wikilink.--Tomobe03 (talk) 15:42, 6 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Kingdom of Yugoslavia and World War II
 * (NDH) is an insufficient explanation in this case. How about (abbreviated NDH, from the Serbo-Croatian Nezavisna Država Hrvatska) or something similar?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:42, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Amended per suggestion, except for name of the language. --Tomobe03 (talk) 09:14, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Added the explanation, but using a template instead, in order to avoid burdening the prose while providing information. --Tomobe03 (talk) 09:30, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't see the information provided in Firefox? Is that the proper use of the template?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:03, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hm, parameters seem to be properly formatted, and the template documentation says that Firefox should display that. I'll check that out furthermore, and if it proves to be a dealbreaker here, I can always revert that to plain text version.--Tomobe03 (talk) 15:36, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * In Firefox, IE, Safari and Opera, I see faint text on a mouseover. I guess this is what it is suppose to do. I am not sure if that is the conventional way to handle this though. I'll check Chrome later.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:03, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I reworded it a bit to remove need for the abbreviation - besides the regime did not really distinguish between inhabitants of the state and inhabitants of other territories in that respect.--Tomobe03 (talk) 17:59, 8 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Federal Yugoslavia and the independence of Croatia
 * Ilok –Drava? space? --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:20, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Reworded to clarify.--Tomobe03 (talk) 15:36, 8 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Political geography
 * "The Croatian counties were re-established in 1992" - Have you already established in this article that counties were once established and abolished. --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:53, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, the article does mention (in "Kingdom of Yugoslavia and World War II" section) that the counties were abolished soon after 1918, but it does not deal with their re-establishment in 1992.--Tomobe03 (talk) 10:51, 12 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Combine "Slavonia consists of five counties—Brod-Posavina, Osijek-Baranja, Požega-Slavonia, Virovitica-Podravina and Vukovar-Syrmia counties. Their combined territories largely cover the territory historically associated with Slavonia." --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:53, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Combined per suggestion.--Tomobe03 (talk) 10:57, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't there be a second mdash between counties and which.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:31, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes there should. Added now. Thanks.--Tomobe03 (talk) 20:45, 12 June 2012 (UTC)


 * "was generally located" - it seems that this should be "generally has been located". --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:53, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Changed per suggestion.--Tomobe03 (talk) 10:59, 12 June 2012 (UTC)


 * "The whole of Slavonia is a part of Central and Eastern (Pannonian) Croatia NUTS-2 statistical unit of Croatia, together with further areas of Central Croatia." seems to fall short of being helpful. Maybe rather than "a part" say something like it is "the eastern half" or "the easternmost part". --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:53, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I opted for "the eastern half" - to tell the truth, Slavonia (i.e. the five counties) represent 53.9% of the particular NUTS region, which, i believe, is close enough to be translated into "half". The other proposed solution, in my opinion, suggests that Slavonia is a relatively small part of the NUTS region, which would make it misleading.--Tomobe03 (talk) 11:07, 12 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Topography
 * I am an WP:OVERLINKer, but I would link plains either here or above if not both. Think about it. --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:17, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think that's overlinking. You're right - wikilinked now.--Tomobe03 (talk) 11:11, 12 June 2012 (UTC)


 * What is a volcanic arc? --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:17, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Oops. That's wikilinked now too.--Tomobe03 (talk) 11:13, 12 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Hydrography and climate
 * Check the Icebreakers link. --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:48, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Fixed thanks.--Tomobe03 (talk) 20:47, 12 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Do the few lakes in Slavonia link to the large rivers that you mention? --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:48, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Kopačevo Lake is connected to the Danube via a canal, and the other one is in the upper section of the Vuka course.--Tomobe03 (talk) 20:50, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Is this content in the article?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:00, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Now it is. Thanks for the pointer.--Tomobe03 (talk) 22:53, 13 June 2012 (UTC)


 * This is very far from my area of expertise, but there are two things I wonder about when reading this section:
 * What happens to the mountain runoff in terms of flowing into rivers.? E.G. in the US, we have two well-known north-south continental divides.
 * How do the mountains affect the climate. I.E. are they tall enough that on one side of them is desert since the water is sort of scraped out of the atmosphere as clouds cross them? --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:48, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Regarding 1 - there is a catchment divide in the region, running west to east along Papuk Mt. and then along a low ridge from Papuk towards Fruška Gora. North of that line watercourses drain to the Drava and those south of the line to the Sava. An exception to the situation is Vuka - located north of the line - but draining to the Danube, as does the Drava itself. I'll add a bit on this shortly.
 * This information is now in the article.--Tomobe03 (talk) 12:30, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Regarding 2 - The mountains are not that high - especially considering that the highest peaks specified for the mountains are far from average height of the mountains. At any rate climate on either side of the mountains is the same.--Tomobe03 (talk) 21:02, 12 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Demographics
 * Either add a table with the county populations or add the numbers to the prose here: "The largest portion of the total population lives in Osijek-Baranja county, followed by Vukovar-Syrmia county. Požega-Slavonia county is the least populous county of Slavonia." --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:08, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
 * There is one already - in the "Political geography" section. If needed the numbers can be repeated in the "Demographics" as well.--Tomobe03 (talk) 22:31, 13 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Economy and transport
 * "largely based on processing industry and trade" - Should we know what they process and trade more specifically.
 * I expanded a bit on that issue, but I tried not to go into great detail though.--Tomobe03 (talk) 20:45, 17 June 2012 (UTC)


 * "contributions to total turnover" - is there a link for turnover as you use it. I am not sure if explains the rest of the sentence and whether it relates to my question above. I have degrees in economics and finance and am a bit confused. I imagine things could be clearer. --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:38, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not quite sure what was I thinking when I typed that. I meant to say that besides wholesale/retail business, processing industry, civil engineering and transport services account for most economy (in terms of income) of the region. I reworded that bit now, hopefully making it clearer.--Tomobe03 (talk) 20:45, 17 June 2012 (UTC)


 * 72,4% is s typo.
 * Fixed typo.--Tomobe03 (talk) 12:30, 17 June 2012 (UTC)


 * What are the Slavonian Landmarks? --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:52, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Added a paragraph on landmarks.--Tomobe03 (talk) 10:47, 19 June 2012 (UTC)


 * What are the prominent Slavonian educational institutions? --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:52, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
 * That's now in as well.


 * What are the most prominent business organizations headquarterted in Slavonia? --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:52, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
 * This information is now added.--Tomobe03 (talk) 22:13, 17 June 2012 (UTC)


 * File:Luka Ibrisimovic-Sokol.jpg and File:Castle Eltz,Vukovar.jpg need punctuation in their WP:CAPTIONs. --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:52, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Added missing periods.--Tomobe03 (talk) 23:55, 17 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I am now placiing this article on hold. Please continue your prompt responses.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:52, 17 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the tremendous effort. I am going to PASS this article now?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:43, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for taking time and effort to review this article. Your input really makes a difference and the article benefited from the review.--Tomobe03 (talk) 17:46, 19 June 2012 (UTC)