Talk:Slim Gaillard

Birthplace
65.114.18.34 indicates that Gaillard was born in Santa Clara Cuba. Many sources I have found say he was born in Detroit. Does anyone have additional information they can provide? --SeanO 12:04, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I am 65.114.18.34. Slim Gaillard is my aunt's (my uncle's wife's) father, and she - HIS DAUGHTER - states that Slim - HER FATHER - was born in Santa Clara, Cuba. This is about as annoying as whoever keeps insisting that Gaillard's granddaughter Nona was born to an Irish/African-American mother. It simply isn't true. Janis Hunter was 1/2 Irish, 1/4 Afro-Cuban and 1/4 Greek. People who keep rolling things like this back to make it fit to whatever they want it to fit to is the reason why Wikipedia is looked down upon as a place to come to for facts. Slim was American by lifestyle, NOT by birth and NOT by parental lineage. -- HannahGrace 23:15, 27 November 2005

Hannah. Thanks for your additional information. I didn't mean to be annoying. When I see an anonymous IP address change data that appears to be contrary to my sources, I do additional research. I didn't find sufficient evidence that the anonymous statements were true, so I changed them back to what my other sources said. One of the suggestions for editing is that you cite your sources. Had you done that originally, I wouldn't have reverted them. Again, thanks for your correction. SeanO 23:37, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

THis is a good example of an article while, without formal citations, is being improved in the direction of accuracy by the participation of people with firsthand knowledge. I believe that this article should not have anything removed from it, unless it's by someone with firsthand knowledge. There are plenty of people living who are relatives or colleagues of Slim's, give them time to contribute and allow their contributions. Thanks, Hannah for the update on Janis's ethnicity - people often shorten such lengthy pedigrees by convention to the kind of error you point out. It's to be expected, but not condoned - I hope Wiki keeps your comments and uses them!--Levalley (talk) 05:57, 29 March 2009 (UTC)LeValley

"Floy Floy" story
Deletion of uncited content asserting "Floy Floy" was allegedly Afro-American urban slang for gonorrhea based on absence of any verfiable corroboration of contention in obviously ideosyncratically composed entry. A Google search of any documents linking "floy floy" and "gonorrhea" this date produced 157 results, of which all but 10 were direct derivations of this uncited Wikipedia assertion, circular references in effect; of the remaining ten, five more were indirect derivations, the remaining five incoherent or making no connection either to the Wikipedia article or between the two terms, "floy floy" and gonorrhea, at all. In three of these, blog post pages, either one word or the other did not appear in spite of the Google return indicating they would. Of the remaining two one was a blog page in Thai with a poster named "Floy" (singular) and an unrelated entry posting pictures of gonorrhea; the last hit was merely a computer generated word list which returned both terms among an entry of thousands of words in alphabetical order. In sum, precisely zero returns that were not either generated by an evidently spurious Wikipedia entry or utterly irrelevent to the assertion.

Alternatively, the only two reliable printed references to the meaning of the song's lyrics (citing direct quotes from Galliard in each instance) fail to substantiate a link between "floy floy" and gonorrhea. From enotes.com;s biography of Slim Gaillard:

Slim and Slam's first hit was a nonsense ditty entitled "Flat Foot Floogie." It shot to the top of the Hit Parade where it stayed for eight weeks. Years later, both Slim and Slam admitted that their biggest hit almost had a different name, one that could have affected its commercial appeal. 'The song was called before we recorded it 'Flat Foot Floosie.' Now you happen to know what a floosie would be—a street walker," Stewart told Cadence. "We got together with someone down at the station who said they wanted to record us, and when we started to record the number, we said 'flat foot floosie.' Then somebody got smart and said 'no, I don't think you'd better use that word, because it wouldn't be quite kosher. It might be commercial but it wouldn't be good for the recording. So we had to do some fast thinking, and the closest thing to that would be 'the flat foot floogie with the floy floy'." The song was first recorded for Decca but never released; Block accepted a better offer for the duo to cut it for Columbia-Vocalion.

"Flat Foot Floogie" was such a big hit in its time that it was put in a time capsule buried on the occasion of the 1939 New York World's Fair. "I get a royalty from the State of New York every year for that underground floy-floy," Gaillard told Home in 1968, "and I intend to be around when they open the capsule."

http://www.enotes.com/contemporary-musicians/gaillard-slim-biography

And a response to a letter to the editor to Time Magazine of August 22, 1938:

Sirs:

. . . I know I am asking a great deal of you but your position will warrant it. In deciding this, lay aside position and loyalty to your party and tell me from the fullness of your heart: What the deuce is a floy-floy?

PAUL E. LAMALÉ

Wabash, Ind.

Authors of The Flat Foot Floogie with the Floy Floy, Slim Gaillard and Slam Stewart, do not know themselves what the words mean. Said Slim: "We were sort of talking a new language." The dance they had vaguely in mind was to be done flatfoot. "When we put the floy floy on it, that was extra business. You got the whole dance right there; you're swinging. See what I mean?"—ED.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,788346-5,00.html

Arguably in the Time quote of Galliard Bowlderized the meaning of the "Floogie/Floozie" part of the lyric. Still, there is no indication in either "floy floy" was Afro American shorthand for gonorrhea. Wikiuser100 (talk) 10:56, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Album liner notes as a source
There's a lot of info about Slim on album liner notes. Are these acceptable cited as a source (I've asked the same about Babs Gonzales)? Sorry if this is a FAQ. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jiver2011 (talk • contribs) 16:07, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Son: Mark Gaillard
Gaillard's daughter Janis Hunter was not an only child, but had a brother, Mark. Can anyone confirm? -andy 77.7.12.56 (talk) 21:43, 12 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I am Mark Gaillard, son of Slim Gaillard. You can hear some of my tribute songs to my father, Slim, such as "Flat Foot Floogie", "Vout O Reenee" on YouTube under Mark Gaillard. Also, on YouTube, are various other recordings in different styles including blues, jazz, rock, country, R&B and funk. "Mellow McVouty On The Ground" is a more contempary use of my Father's "Vout" language in a funk/hip hop style. A couple more songs you might get a kick out of are under constrution in the studio, and close to the styles that my father performed, "Flip Flop" and "Tootsie Roll". Most of the songs on YouTube I co-wrote with a very talented producer, songwriter, Donna Sigalas.  She gives acknowledgement for her musical aibilities to her late, great brother, the supreme lead guitar player, Larry Wilkins, who was best known for his work with the infamous, Eric Burdon. I hope to continue to write songs using my father's unique "VOUT" language for many years to come.


 * Janis Hunter is my sister, also know as Janis Gaye, Marvin Gaye's second wife, mother of two of Marvin's children, Nona and Frankie Gaye. Marvin has another son, Marvin Gaye III of a different mother. I spent a lot time with my sister and my niece and nephews when they were young running around Marvin Gaye's studio. I worked for Marvin with his younger brother, Frankie Gaye for ten years at Marvin"s studio on Sunset Boulevard in Hollywood, California.


 * Slim Gaillard was a travelling superstar of his time. We miss him and love him. When our father was passing away, I flew to London to be with him in his final days and oversee his care. Reaching out to his friends such as Alan of the Wag Club, Ronnie Scott of Ronnie Scott's club, and the very famous George Melley, who spoke at my father's memorial service in London, I was able to coodinate a tribute to him in London.


 * The BBC (British Broadcasting Network), who had produced four half hour television specials about my father (produced by Jill Meller) were happy to pay to transport my father and me, first class, back to the United States for him to be buried in the Newport Beach, California next to Laguna Beach, where he had been given the keys to the City two times during his life.


 * My bith certificate, which my Father gave me, states that my birth name is, Mark Christian Rothschild. Slim's name on the birth certificate, is Bulee Rothschild.  Rothchild was his true given last name, as he was the son of Theopholis Rothschild, an heir to a piece of the Rothschild fortune.


 * I have two children, Jennifer, who is getting her Master's Degree in Education, and hosts the official Slim Gaillard Family Website; and my daughter, Christina, who is a full-time musician and a very accomplished drummer. Christina sings in her own style and has mastered several other instruments as well.  Both of my daughters continue the legacy of Slim Gaillard. McVouty rides again!


 * I am proud of my entire family. But, I am most proud to be the son of the late, great, very gifted and talented, SLIM GAILLARD! Jan and I continue to run the family business regarding Slim's music through our publishing companies. I am glad to say Slim is alive and well and his music is being used in many mediums throughout the world.


 * Thank you to all who are interested in my Father's music and heritage. My email, should anyone want to contact me is markgaillard@gmail.com


 * Sincerely,


 * Mark Christian Gaillard/Rothschild/Son of McVouty
 * Bulee "Slim Gaillard" Rothschild's Son


 * PS: JUST REMEMBER TO LET IT VOUT FOR A WHILE -- VERY IMPORTANT! IF YOU NAIL AN AVOCADO SEED TO THE ROOF AND YOU DON'T LET IT VOUT FOR AWHILE, YOU MAY NOT HAVE AN AVOCADA SEED SOUP O'RENNEEEEEE......  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.93.90.244 (talk) 06:53, 13 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Reply to: [IP address used above by "Mark Gaillard".]
 * Courtesy copy to: [IP editor who contributed this useful edit.]
 * [ Note:  I am assuming that the person who added the long comment immediately above really is Mark Gaillard, son of Slim. Otherwise, this post would be a waste of my time, but that doesn't bother me, given the importance of the topic at hand. It is also possible that other editors have (or have previously had) similar questions, in which case the present post might perhaps serve the useful purpose of keeping a record of such questions.]


 * Hello, Mark! My name is Patrick and I am one of the Wikipedia editors contributing some editorial stewardship to the present article on Slim Gaillard. I am hopeful that you occasionally visit this article and that you will therefore see the comments I am writing here. Thank you in advance for your time and any assistance you might be able to offer.
 * If you look in the Early life section, by clicking here, you will see that another editor has now very helpfully added citations for the census of 1860 (showing an entry for one "Theophilus Rothchild", born in Alabama in 1859) and also for the census of 1920 (showing an entry for one "Beuler Gillard", born in Florida in 1918, son of "Mary Gillard", born in 1888 ("age 32") also in Alabama, like "Theophilus Rothchild").
 * In the past, several Wikipedia editors have been struck by the similarity of names between "Beulee Gaillard" and this "Beuler Gillard", particularly given the fact that Slim is on record for stating that his mother's first name was "Maria", which ties in with the "Mary Gillard" mentioned as Beuler Gillard's mother in the 1920 census. Similarly, the name of Slim's father, "Theophilus Rothschild", is so close to the "Theophilus Rothchild" listed in the 1860 census (there is only the letter 's' missing) that the latter might be a record of your grandfather's origins, especially since his father (possibly your great-grandfather) was a wealthy immigrant from Bavaria, which ties in with Slim's earlier statements about his German/Jewish ancestry.
 * Just supposing this "Theophilus Rothchild" (without 's') born in 1859 was your grandfather, might it be possible that he and "Mary Gillard" (= "Maria Gaillard") moved from Florida to Cuba when Slim was still an infant, which would help to explain why he thought, and stated, that he was born in Santa Clara, Cuba?
 * I wonder if you (or anyone else in the family) might have a copy of your father's birth certificate ? Just supposing, again, that he is this "Beuler Gillard" (born in 1918), Slim might have been able to procure a copy of his birth certificate later in life, perhaps in order to prove his American citizenship when he was drafted into the army in 1943, or to get married, or to purchase property, etc.
 * It would be helpful to know if there is a copy of Slim's birth certificate in the family's possession, and if this could be photographed and added to the present article. Thank you for your consideration; this would help enormously in clearing this issue once and for all.
 * There are other, intriguing questions related to Slim's early life, for which we will probably never have any answers, but they have occurred to me:
 * Why did he (seemingly) not attempt to reconnect with his parents after sailing back from Crete to Detroit "when he was 15"? In 1930, say, his parents would have been 71 and 42, respectively.
 * Similarly, why did he not attempt to reconnect with his parents in the late 1930s, after his early success and before 1943, at a time when he'd earned enough money to be able to travel anywhere in the US or to Cuba? In 1942, they would have been 83 and 54.
 * Thank you, Mark.
 * Patrick. ツ Pdebee.(talk)(guestbook) 17:01, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * P.S.: By copy to other editors interested in the present article, I am fully aware that all of the above is contravening the policy on original research, but I have not applied any edits to the article that are not corroborated by citations to available sources. I believe that, if the real Mark Gaillard were able to provide Wikipedia with a photo of Slim Gaillard's birth certificate, a lot of the controversy surrounding his date and place of birth could be resolved once and for all. Thank you for your understanding and support.


 * Just noticed this thread after editing the article. The book Blues: A Regional Experience by Eagle and LeBlanc - you may be able to see part of the entry here - states that he was born in Claiborne County, Alabama, in 1918, the son of Theophilus Rothschild and Mary G(a)illard.  I've incorporated that detail into the text - it is a reliable source so far as I'm concerned, and reproduces that part of your research.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:05, 6 October 2016 (UTC)


 * It seems that this is Mark. Useful material for incorporating into an article, I'd say. I know it's a "blog" source, but surely better than nothing to support Mark's name in the article? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:53, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Great article. Mark Gaillard has a redlink here, by the way.   Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:14, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Tell him he's in the queue. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:32, 6 October 2016 (UTC) p.s.


 * Dear and ,
 * Thank you very much for your interest in this, and also for your helpful contributions. Yes, I had seen these blog entries with interviews of Mark Gaillard, among several others (including one of Joni Mitchell, of whom he seems to be a close friend...). I decided to ignore them because they're mainly blogs, and also because they do not add much clarity to the topic at hand: Slim's place and date of birth. Also, we already know that Mark is Slim's son, thanks to Part 4 of the Arena documentary ("Everything's OK in the UK"), where Slim's three children and grandchildren appear at length.
 * Guy, Thank you also for adding the research carried out by Eagle/Leblanc; this is very useful as an additional contribution to the subject. I hope you won't mind that I restored the ref to the 1920 census, which enables our readers to see the evidence about this mysterious "Beuler Gillard" for themselves and directly from the article. Thanks once again.
 * With kind regards;
 * Patrick. ツ Pdebee.(talk)(guestbook) 09:36, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Should the Mark Gaillard interview be added as an external link? It would certainly be of interest to readers of the article, even if it does not count as a reliable source on matters of fact.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:23, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Dear (copy to ),
 * Good idea; will do this now, with thanks to Martin for making the initial suggestion.
 * With kind regards;
 * Patrick. ツ Pdebee.(talk)(guestbook) 10:28, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
 * what 2601:600:A401:9090:7015:F431:5E0E:375F (talk) 04:31, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Fact vs Fiction?
This is an interesting article. Seeing clips of Slim on Youtube, he was clearly an "off the wall" impromptu performer of great genius. Some of the "info" seems too far-fetched to believe, at least if it were somebody else. I could believe it in Slim Gaillard's case, but still, look at this: "According to the obituaries in leading newspapers, Gaillard's childhood in Cuba was spent cutting sugar-cane and picking bananas, as well as occasionally going to sea with his father. However, at the age of 12, he accompanied his father on a world voyage and was accidentally left behind on the island of Crete. After working on the island for a while, he made his home in Detroit. In America, Gaillard worked in an abattoir, trained as a mortician and also had been employed at Ford's Motor Works.[citation needed]" He was "accidentally left behind on the island of Crete"??? "Trained as a mortician"??? This smacks of some random editor trying to be funny, but maybe it is true. Also, it is not clear to me if his ancestry has Greek or German, or both. I'm happy to see this wikipedia article, and hope that people strive to take it seriously, and make an effort to clear this up.(PS This is a website I discovered, re Gaillard's "Vout" language: http://www.pocreations.com/vout.html)77Mike77 (talk) 01:35, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Removing link to 'ancestry.com'.
Dear fellow editors, I am leaving this message out of courtesy to other editors interested in this article. As I was adding citation templates today, I also tested all the other external links to see if they were still functional, including this one: which was added on 12 December 2009 (at 19:19) by User:Igbo. I have several concerns about this link: In an attempt to refresh the link, I searched for a suitable US website that would openly display this information, but I couldn't find any. It is quite possible, of course, that this was possible at some stage in the past, or that the information was openly displayed. However, it is not possible today. Therefore, I am removing this link and also the information it was intended to corroborate, since it is not possible for a Wikipedia editor, let alone a reader, to verify the claim. Furthermore, it is impossible to reconcile the dates: Slim Gaillard could not have been the 19-months old 'Beuler Gillard' born in Pensacola, Florida as per the 1920 census, since this is inconsistent with Gaillard's birth year of 1916, which would have made him 4 years old in 1920, not 19 months old. In summary, there is no justification to keep this confusing information and its link, for two reasons: With kind regards; Patrick. ツ Pdebee.(talk)(guestbook) 21:17, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
 * it points to the 'ancestry.com' website, which requires a user registration; therefore, it does not openly display the information that it is supposed to corroborate;
 * as a UK user, even selecting 'United States' (in 'Visit our other sites:') on that website automatically links me back to 'ancestry.co.uk';
 * it is therefore impossible for the reader to access the information that the link is supposed to corroborate.
 * 1) the dates are inconsistent;
 * 2) the link does not lead to a corroborative source.

Removing link to online biography.
Dear fellow editors, I am leaving this message out of courtesy to other editors interested in this article. Because I edit so many articles on subjects related to music (including popular music), I very recently acquired a second hand copy of the first edition (1992) of Colin Larkin's The Guinness Encyclopedia of Popular Music. Here are the first few lines in its entry for "Slim Gaillard" (pages 934-935):

Now, contrast the above text with the following extract from the online text available at Steven Polatnik's fansite and purporting to be from the "Muze UK Ltd '89-'98" version of the same encyclopedia:

It seems to me that the first two sentences of the fansite version of this biography are alterations applied to the original version, and that the place of birth was altered to support the prevailing view, generally sourced from generations of album sleeve notes, that Gaillard was born in Detroit. A tell tale sign of the suspected alteration is the absence of punctuation between the words 'England' (which ends the first sentence) and 'Other sources ...' (which begin the second sentence) &mdash; although this could also be a simple typo introduced when the text was typed into the fansite. However, I am inclined to conclude that the fansite's version of the biography appears to be WP:OR applied to an original extract from the quoted encyclopedia, the rest of the fansite's text being otherwise identical to the original text in the 1992 edition of the Encyclopedia of Popular Music. I am happy to be proved wrong, especially if another editor has access to a later edition of the Encyclopedia of Popular Music, where Gaillard's place of birth might have been the subject of a revision. Until then, I will be giving precedence to the text from the first edition of the 1992 encyclopedia, in my possession. In addition, a second reason for removing the link is simply because a fansite is considered unreliable, as per WP:FANSITE. However, I have retained the link and relocated it to the 'External links' section after changing it to point to the 'Discography' page of the fansite, since the material shown there is verifiable through other means, such as the links to cduniverse in the new 'Discography' section I created a few days ago. Thank you. With kind regards; Patrick. ツ Pdebee.(talk)(guestbook) 17:36, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Problems with this entry
The following can't be used as sources because they are user-generated: Discogs, YouTube (also copyright violations), IMDb, genealogy sites, and retail sites like Amazon, iTunes, and CD Universe. The sourcing that does exist on this page isn't great. There's a link to a Japanese site, so I assume that editor knows Japanese, but I wonder whether a better source could've been found, one in English for example. I don't know if Idelsohn Society for Musical Preservation is a reliable source. But again, why use it?

Listmania. The text is divided into decades, even if little more than a few sentences are provided to cover an entire decade. The whole article looks like a compilation of lists. There were separate headers for languages in Galliard's songs. The discography, filmography, and bibliography take up much of the page and aren't done that well. For one thing, CDs aren't the only recording medium used today. The generic term to use is "album", which covers CDs, SACDs, vinyl (LPs), and online albums that can be downloaded as computer files. There's no reason to have "CD" discographies.

The page is deceptively long (and important) because of the box quotes, which I find rarely necessary, esp. in an impartial work like Wikipedia where facts are more important than opinions. Yes, this entry is a biography, but it's a Wikipedia biography, not a book biography. Re:quotes, What point is being made? Can it be paraphrased or omitted? Is the quote vital to the entry or did an editor include it simply because it was considered interesting, amusing, entertaining?

Detail is included for the sake of detail and for having something to say. There are opinions (POV) and uses of the first name (a plague in Wikipedia), about which I could draw all sorts of conclusions. There are many citation templates, one going back to 2007. If it were possible, I would start from scratch, but that isn't how Wikipedia works. –Vmavanti (talk) –Vmavanti (talk) 21:36, 22 August 2017 (UTC) WP:USERGENERATED: "Content from websites whose content is largely user-generated is also generally unacceptable. Sites with user-generated content include personal websites, personal blogs, group blogs, the Internet Movie Database (IMDb), the Comic Book Database (CBDB.com), content farms, most wikis including Wikipedia, and other collaboratively created websites." –Vmavanti (talk) 04:00, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Looks like you may be busy. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:50, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I did a lot yesterday. Then a bot replaced some things that had been deleted, two of the sources, including the IMDb citation. I'm not sure why.
 * IMDb is used all over the place. Maybe that's why we have a template for it? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:46, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
 * My understanding is that IMDb can't be used as a source because it relies on user-generated material.
 * There is a semantic difference between saying something "can't" be used as a source and saying that it "shouldn't" be used as a source. Sites like IMDb and Discogs, for example, are in fact often pretty reliable - often far more reliable on facts than, say, Allmusic - but, because they are user-generated, they should not be used unconditionally, and certainly not where better sites that have been checked by independent experts are available.    The trick here would be to find the best available sources on Gaillard, and use them.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:25, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

–Vmavanti (talk) 17:25, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I think the decision to avoid them is a good one given the nature of those sites. I don't think the difference is semantic. It's substantive. I've found errors in Discogs and IMDB, and of course in AllMusic, but AllMusic is a professional site with a business and legal infrastructure as outlined in the WP documentation. I would rather have wrong data from AllMusic than right data from Discogs. Of course, you don't always know which is which at the time. But I will continue to delete the use of these sites as sources. My approach is to have less information rather than more, quality over quantity, which is consistent with the goals and purposes of Wikipedia but contrary to the desires of some people who contribute to Wikipedia. Letting people use discogs or IMDb occasionally, then telling them they can't, is arbitrary and confusing.
 * "I would rather have wrong data from AllMusic than right data from Discogs." Wow. Personally, I think that's pretty arbitrary and confusing. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:00, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
 * There is a specific issue in relation to popular music (including jazz), in that much of the most authoritative and accurate research is not set out in peer-reviewed academic journals or books - which often disdain involvement in such matters - but is done by aficionados and independent researchers of the music, often published in user-generated sites or blogs. Of course, such sources should be treated with extreme caution, and more reliable sources (in the WP sense) should be used whenever possible - but that is not the same thing as baldly stating that user-generated sites "can't" be used.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:29, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Planet of the Apes (1968 film)
Re this deletion, I see that The Washington Post also says that he appeared in that film: here? As does the Los Angeles Times here? Thanks Martinevans123 (talk) 15:37, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

"Opera In Vout" correction
You claim that a piece of music called "The Groove Juice Special (Opera In Vout)" was recorded by Slim Gaillard and Slam Stewart. But according to the labels of the 78 rpm disks, the title of the work is "Opera In Vout (Groove Juice Symphony)", and Slim Gaillard performed it with Bam Brown. 62.7.182.106 (talk) 05:10, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

PS - I'm not making this up just to mess with your heads! https://ia801901.us.archive.org/5/items/78_opera-in-vout-groove-juice-symphony_slim-gaillard-and-bam-brown-c-jam_gbia8000475c/78_opera-in-vout-groove-juice-symphony_slim-gaillard-and-bam-brown-c-jam_gbia8000475c_itemimage.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.138.52.159 (talk) 17:03, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

PPS - Do these talk pages actually serve any purpose at all, or are they just a waste of cyberspace nobody who matters ever bothers to visit? And if so, why do they exist? 86.136.178.243 (talk) 07:59, 12 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Yes, they do, because eventually some volunteer (as we all are) like me will take responsibility for checking. I think you're right, the citation adds up, and I'll correct the article.  Thanks!  Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:06, 19 September 2023 (UTC)