Talk:Small form factor PC/Archive 1

Since Shuttle has innovative
Since Shuttle has innovative and effective CPU cooling methods, the comment about heat seems incorrect.

But what is it?
Interestingly, the article never actually says what SFF is. How small is small? Are mini-towers SFF? Are laptops? Are there standard SFF form factors &mdash; are microATX systems SFF? mini-ITX? When did SFF systems first appear? Why do people want SFF? Just a few ideas to kick off some additions (don't forget to cite sources). --Mrwojo 00:29, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Well this article title is lower case, indicating that it should be covering the general concept, not one specific one. As you point out there are several, each one often smaller than the previous one. In particular, it needs to mention that other things besides motherboards and boxes also can be called "small form factor". In particular, disks and network transceivers! So needs to clarify the context, and wikilink to Small Form Factor committee and SFF-SIG (which should probably be spelled out instead of acronymized in my opinion. W Nowicki (talk) 20:59, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Kids, these days
Removed some of the biased crap written by some 15-year old. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.224.144.153 (talk • contribs) 17:32, 21 May 2006 (UTC).
 * I'd suggest that you read No personal attacks and Manual of style. I wrote a decent chunk of that stuff, and I'm not a 15-year-old, nor do I have any particular industry affiliation or brand loyalty that would bias me.  If you're going to make significant changes to this or other articles, you also ought to register an account so others can follow your edits more easily! M OXFYRE  ( contrib ) 00:48, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

 Expandability is very limited in some small form factor computers with most commercial offering only providing for one 3.5" and one or two 5.25" external drive bays. How is this different from Normal PCs? I haven't seen many non-workstation PCs that have more than two 5.25" bays, going all the way back to the original IBM PCs, where there wasn't any disks smaller than 5.25!! ..., and generally these cases can only fit 2-4 hard drives. FOUR Hard Drives! These specs don't define Small Form Factor and should probably be taken out. This article will very quickly be outmoded.  It would be good to provide more contrast with measurements of form factors in the past, because this SFF will seem ridiculously large in the near future. Cuvtixo 03:22, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Controversial?
What is controversial about a computer? — Omegatron 19:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Reply to "Kids These Days"
You obviously don't track small form factors very often....or larger computers for that matter.

Many computer cases now come with the ability to hold many hard drives and in some cases up to 8 or 10 hard drives! Small form factor computers are limited in this aspect with many just holding 2 while only one can hold 4 which is amazing. Also many ATX computer cases come with 4 or 5 external 5.25" drive bays which is many more than the 2 you see on SFF. This is in comparison to the other computer cases and form factors out there...not just your Dell computer at work. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.127.44.14 (talk) 20:18, 18 February 2007 (UTC).

Stop Advertising
This page keeps on getting hit by those that want to advertise their product. Keep the links to SFF dedicated websites and stop putting in links to manufacturer websites and doing things of that nature. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.127.44.14 (talk)
 * I don't see any reason why links to a few of the very prominent SFF manufacturers shouldn't be included... M OXFYRE ( contrib ) 00:48, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I would agree with Moxfyre, I am trying to research the different "abnormal" (i.e. "not your normal atx tower case") cases as I want to build my own PVR to pull content from the internet to watch on my new 52" sharp LCD TV. All my searching and research up until finding this article was not nearly as helpful as this wiki entry.  The most helpful part was the examples of chassis and their manufacturers.  The only (minor) problem I had with this entry was that the examples DID NOT include links to where I could find out more about the examples -so I added them, as a reference tool.  I'm sure I'm not the only one who has or will stumble upon this article in search of do-it-yourself digital media A/V boxes.

Tylerschwerdfeger (talk) 13:17, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Recent edits and reverts
(I'm leaving this here since the user in question,, is using an anonymous IP address.) As you've noticed, I've partially reverted some of your recent edits to this article. They didn't seem particularly constructive to me for several reasons: In summary, I thought your edits made the article less clear and useful, without improving it or making it more accurate. I have no agenda of adding any "untrue" information to the page. If you have specific concerns about the article content (such as whether "some" or "many" SFF cases have a specific property), how about discuss them here on the talk page before making those edits? And if you're going to do a lot of editing, you should register an account. M OXFYRE ( contrib ) 12:25, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Your edits didn't seem to correct or improve any information, but mostly just to alter the layout and ordering.
 * You didn't wikify your edits (they were lacking in internal links and formatting compared to earlier versions)
 * You referenced a number of specific SFF models without providing pictures or links, which is likely to be confusing for many readers.

Edits To Avoid Spam
Sorry, that IP is actually me (stwalke2) but when I am logged out. I see you revert the edits but please do not do so. The edits you reverse promote the manufacturers and are mostly inaccurate. I actually run SFFClub and speak with SFFTech and BoxGods which are three review sites that either deal with small form factor exclusively or partly. We tend to know our stuff and I think it was best the way it was. Perhaps we could edit it some but it would be better to leave out the manufacturers in my opinion as it would create a large list if we included them all.

Thanks!

Stwalke2 00:37, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay, I have a few issues still:
 * The previous version (which I've contributed to) does not promote any particular manufacturers, other than listing a few of them at the bottom of the page. I understand why that might be a problem.  If you agree, then remove that particular section.
 * I don't think your rewrite is as clear as my previous version. In particular, your rewrite of the "Form Factors" section does not contain wiki links, and leaves out Home Theater-style cases, which I think many consider an important and distinct category of SFF.
 * Your version refers to the NVidia 8800GTX video cards without any context or links. It's much more general to say that large expansion cards don't fit some cases, than to refer to specific cards.  I've encountered several SFF cases which do not fit a variety of cards, not all of which were video cards.
 * The fact that you run an SFF review site doesn't necessarily determine either the accuracy or the clarity of the material you add to wikipedia. If you think a particular statement is wrong or inaccurate, then cite credible references to back it up.
 * Your version refers to "microATX" as "mATX", which is not the official name and not widely used outside of SFF web sites where it's a handy abbreviation. The official name is more widely known and understood.
 * Also, you keep removing the Image:X-QPack_Blue.JPG image, without any reason. Why??  I didn't take that photo, but I think it's a very illustrative picture, as it shows the size of a cube-type case in relation to a cable modem, and it also shows the types of drives and peripherals that may be attached to such a computer.  So please stop removing it without an explanation.  The Shuttle XPC picture may be "prettier", but it doesn't show the scale of the computer or the position of the drives with nearly as much clarity.
 * So, unless you correct the shortcomings of your edits, I plan to revert most of them again. Thanks. M OXFYRE  ( contrib ) 02:49, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, the template which you've put at the bottom of the page (Template:Uw-coi) is a user warning template. It is only supposed to be put on individual users' talk pages, not on articles. M OXFYRE ( contrib ) 03:15, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Hey Moxfyre,

Thanks for the feedback! I do feel we should avoid putting specific information about manufacturers such as one part that said "PC Design Labs Qmicra can do x, y, and z"...that seems biased and I believe it was someone else that wrote it. I'd prefer not to have manufacturer links at the bottom because it excluded so many and in the end it is not helpful.


 * I see your point. Seems like it's a good idea to keep them out.  (I'm responding to each point inline, hope it's clearer this way!) M OXFYRE  ( contrib )

I agree the form factors section needs to be cleaned up and I am working on how it should be written and I'm grateful for your help with that. I think HTPC is its own thing (and has its own wiki) so it should be left out. In general HTPC is not considered SFF because it can be bigger than an ATX case.


 * That's true, but many HTPC cases are SFF, so I feel it should at least be mentioned in this section. M OXFYRE  ( contrib )

As for the 8800GTX statement, most SFF cases that I own fit the 8800GTS which is a little over 9 inches. The real issue with saying "large video cards" is that it is vague and includes the 8800GTS which really fits most cases with few exceptions among newer cases. The Ultra Micro Fly, for example, fits the 8800GTS fine but the only cases that can really fit the 8800GTX is the Qmicra and SG03.


 * Well, keep in mind that many readers of this article may not know anything at all about SFF cases or video cards! Also, some box-type cases (such as the HP Slimline) will not fit standard PCI cards at all, but only half-height cards with a shortened backplate... and I have seen some data-instrumentation PCI cards which are very long they barely fit in a large-ish microATX tower.  So, this issue is not limited to video cards, and it may be best to explain that larger cards in general may pose problems.  Readers who need to know more details should be helped out by the external links. M OXFYRE  ( contrib )

The fact that I run a review website doesn't give me clarity but it does give me credibility considering I look at these things all day (sadly). I realize it seems a little "high and mighty" and I don't mean to be but I do know the subject fairly well so some comments that I feel are untrue kinda get to me :) I really do wish to improve the clarity and format it better and you are correct in stating that I am not really great at that.  Perhaps you could help me there.

microATX is fine. That is a valid change.

Actually I want to remove the Shuttle picture as well and replace both with more updated photos of newer SFF cases. The picture you should is of the Qpack which is no outdated and replaced by the Qpack2. In fact we could add photos to each "type".


 * Photos of each type would be great. Also, keep in mind that since this is an encyclopedia, the point of the photos is to illustrate the article, not to show the latest product.  That's why I think the Qpack photo is great, since it clearly shows the number of drive bays and relative size of a typical SFF case... of course a less outdated photo would be better, but only if it's similarly helpful in clarifying the text.  M OXFYRE  ( contrib )

I'd ask that you do not revert back but help me format the current version and make it sound a little better. You have more experience with wiki editing than I do with my only contribution being the small form factor page. If you don't mind can you email me at steve@sffclub.com and we can work out some language things and I'll provide some photos for this article to improve.


 * I'll do that! I'm quite happy to work together with you on this, and I think there are a few other regular contributors to this article lurking around as well.  One of the things that's most needed in this article are references to credible external sources (maybe some major magazines or tech review sites?).  Thanks for your responses!  M OXFYRE  ( contrib ) 04:17, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your help!

Best,

Steve

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BetacommandBot (talk) 22:25, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Micro ATX mother board are usually square shaped
A µATX mobo is a square of 244x244 mm : it' not what the picture shows ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.192.121.231 (talk) 09:25, 31 January 2010 (UTC)