Talk:Smetana (dairy product)

Old history of the article
Aout a year ago some wise guys decided to merge "smetana" into Sour cream. Obviously, they screwed something up, so that the old history landed here: which I am placing it here, in compliance with GFDL rules. mikka (t) 05:08, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Talk:Sour cream/Smetana history

Name of article
Is "smetana cream" a proper name for this article? Presumably it should be just "smetana", but that is already a disamb for the composer and other things. Perhaps this article should be moved to smetana (cream) — or, better, to smetana (food)? Jorge Stolfi 01:11, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Smetana (cream) is all right. --Ghirla | talk 10:53, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I propose to move it as per Ghirla. If no one objects, let's move. --Irpen 05:12, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Smetana = cream
As far as I know, at least in Czech 'smetana' means just cream, 'sour cream' is called 'kysaná smetana' Plch 18:32, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The situation is similar in Bulgarian. Сметана is just cream and заквасена сметана is sour cream. --Emil Petkov 10:44, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * This article describes what is called "sladka smetana" ("sweet cream") in Slovenian. "Kisla smetana" is sour cream. Also, if you say just "smetana", people will normally think of sour cream first rather than the sweet creme fraiche like smetana that is described here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.21.71.110 (talk) 22:35, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Smetana spelling and pronunciation
Though smetana is written "сметана" in both Russian and Ukrainian languages, the pronunciation of it differs slightly. In Ukrainian it is [smɛ`ta:na], while in Russian it is [smjɛ`ta:na].

Also, whilst both in Russian сметана and in Ukrainian сметана, second syllable is stressed, it may not be so in other languages. As far as I know, in Czech language, the first syllable is stressed as a rule. So the Czech name must be pronounced probably [`smɛtana]. Still, my native language is Ukrainian, not Czech :) so I welcome the Czech speakers to say their word here (Flying Fish 09:49, 16 May 2006 (UTC))


 * I confirm the Czech pronunciation. Although I do not know Russian very well I think that the Russian pronunciation is rather [smʲɛ`ta:na]. I.e. the "м" before "е" is palatalized [mʲ] (see russian phonology). The correct pronunciation is difficult for us (Czechs) because the closest approximation in our language is [mj] which is probably a very different sound for Russians. --pabouk 09:38, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Source to use
If someone has time, please use this page as source: http://www.dlc.fi/~marianna/gourmet/i_milk.htm

Main entry
Should not the composer be the main entry? I think the anglophone user entering this word is more likely to be looking for a composer, who is pretty famous, than for the sour-cream.I suggest:

Objections? --Irpen 05:28, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Move this article to Smetana (diary) Smetana (dairy product)
 * 2) Have Smetana as a redirect to Bedřich Smetana
 * 3) Add to the top of the composer article that would make a following note:


 * I agree completely - except to substitute "dairy", or perhaps "dairy product", for "diary" :-) . I was very taken aback to be faced with an article about sour cream when wanting to check a musical fact. Vilĉjo 15:44, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Done. --Irpen 02:44, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * How about fixing double redirects and all? Now it is quite funny to trace from Smetana cream to Bedřich Smetana. `'mikkanarxi 03:12, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. Sorry, --Irpen 04:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree. How would you like to find a person named Bread instead of kind of food?--Nixer 09:21, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, if bread (the foodstuff) was a comparative rarity among users of the English-language Wikipedia, but there was a well-known individual by the name of Bread, then of course the person would take priority. It all comes down to how well-known the composer is versus the foodstuff (among users of this 'pedia): I have known of the composer for decades, but learnt of the dairy product just a matter of days ago. Perhaps that simply shows my ignorance ;) Vilĉjo 01:05, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Please let us remember that this is an english wikipedia and the users looking for Smetana will most likely be searching for the composer. It is a pain to have to go through 3 pages to reach the composer's page (especially for poor dialup users). Let us at least turn Smetana into a disambig page if not a redirect to the composer's page. Shushruth \talk page \ contribs 19:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It is already done. Smetana redirects to a composer and tl:otheruses is on top of the article. --Irpen 20:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * This "product" is readily avaivable in virtually any delicatessen, in Chicago, and not only as an import. It strikes me as one of those typically "goofy" articles one will find in Wikipedia, where a group of editors foolishly tries to argue about the uniqueness of a food product, that is in the final analysis not at all unique. What are the cows doing in Eastern Europe, that they are failing to do in the rest of the world? We all love the memory of our grandmothers, but this entire article is too bizarre. I find it also hard to believe that this is under the category of a "Russian High-Importance Article". Dr. Dan 01:28, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

What are the cows doing in Eastern Europe, that they are failing to do in the rest of the world? Well, milk. The cows doesn't give sour cream. It’s the people who do the milk products. And the article is not only for the loved memory of our grandmothers., There are still living people in Europe. And Russians who are probably passionate about this stuff.Warrington (talk) 17:15, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Problem with definition
Someone lef this anonymously on the article page:


 * The definition stated here for 'smetana' is not entirely correct. Its precise meaning in each of the languages listed needs to be researched and the text edited accordingly.  For example in Czech, the word 'smetana' simply means 'cream', not sour cream but plain cream in varying percentages of fat.  Sour cream in Czech is specifically, 'kysaná smetana', literally meaning sour cream.  Czech sour cream is no heavier than Western European varieties.


 * The same is in Poland - 'śmietana' is any kind of cream here, sour cream is 'kwaśna śmietana' but this phrase is rarely used on daily basis, people look onto percentage of fat (assuming that <= 18% is sour cream often with phrase 'do zupy' meaning 'for soup' or sweat coffee cream and also assuming that >= 30 is sweet cream). --Htarlovx (talk) 15:31, 24 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Ah, ignorants having problems with their own language may add to the puzzling :) Śmietana means sour cream in polish - specific kind of it, exactly as in the article introduction, but also every kind of sour cream in general. It's produced in a few main grades regarding milkfat content, mostly 9, 12, 18 and 22%, though something like 24-26% is also possible. Cream is called ,,śmietanka" and, unlike smetana, it has little use in polish cuisine. It comes usually with 30 and 36% fat (but lighter versions also exist, including coffee cream, naturally).

The substance of this objection has been raised before, and still needs to be dealt with. Kevlar67 03:13, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The Serbian/Bosnian terms need to be looked into too. For Serbian, 'mileram' is given, but this is a different product, there is a product called 'pavlaka' in Serbian, with acidic and non-acid ('sweet') forms, so it's not clear why 'mileram' was listed. Pavlaka is the same thing in 'Bosnian' and Serbian, too, so again, not clear. 109.245.44.64 (talk) 05:19, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Cultured or not?
I have a question about smetana in its various forms and incarnations. I'd like to know whether or not a bacterial starter (culture) is added to the cream in any of the regions where it is made and eaten. Is it cultured, like American sour cream - or just a naturally soured cream product, like creme fraiche? It seems like this information would be relevant to the entry. Thanks. KateH 13:10, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Article should be merged with cream or removed
This article is a joke. As several people pointed out smetana = cream. Any Czech dictionary will support this fact. I especially like the way "Croatian vrhnje" just links to the page for cream. Haha. Unless someone can provide a reference to show that any of the slavic terms mean something other than just cream, I propose that this page be removed. That also neatly solves any conflict with the composer.

The Oxford English Dictionary defines smetana as "sour cream" (with a Russian etymology) so perhaps the article should be merged back into sour cream. However, it's only sour cream when used in English. The same word in Czech = cream. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.232.105.62 (talk) 04:05, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Article should not be merged with cream and not removed
I can assure you, this article is NOT a joke, in English this is the name of this product. It is a Russian loanword in English, like Samovar or Sputnik program. Than the word is the same for this dairy product in the Finnish, Russian, Belarusian and Ukrainian languages, but not the Czech, and this make Czech people confused and upset.

“smetana = cream. In Czech. Any Czech dictionary will support this fact”.

Yes, but this is the English Wikipedia. The Oxford English Dictionary is probably not familiar with the Czech cooking habits. And this is a different type of sour cream. This is the meaning of the article, to point out the differences. It is like the difference between Strained yoghurt (or Greek yoghurt) and Yoghurt, if you would have use them both, you would understand the difference. However, the Czech sour cream seems to be an exeption, more like Crème fraîche. And "Croatian vrhnje" should be written kiselo vrhnje. Warrington (talk) 12:43, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Lol, is really our śmietana/smetana (or however called) something different than Western/American cream? I'd never have come across such a thought. --Elvus (talk) 14:58, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Russian term for cream is SLIVKI and smetana is in Russia considered as something different. In Czech or Slovak each similar product is smetana/ smotana I can enumarate several examples of product that are in Slovakia considered as specific product and in english just like subcategory of some product.

One more complicated example. Italian Ricotta has independent article, but is defined practically as sort of cheese. In Slovak exist similar product named Tvaroh (also in my dictionary Tvaroh is Ricotta in Italiano), but many people do not accept these products as this same. In my opinion it so similar that it can be accepted as same product. There are a lot of sort of Tvaroh and Ricotta, and many times difference between two Ricotta products is much significant as between Ricotta and Tvaroh. In Hungary exist TURO and it is in Slovakia accepted as equivalent of Tvaroh, however, they are maybe more significant difference in taste between TURO and Tvaroh as between Tvaroh and Ricotta. '''Anyhow, if loanword Smetana exists in English then article should not be merged, but content should be prepared in this content. So in definition stated that it is Russion (and not slavic) loanword. Translation to czech and other languages have to be deleted (because smetana = cream = slivki), etc.''' --212.5.210.202 (talk) 12:49, 30 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I am reverting your edits, namely by reinstating all the words in other languages and reverting the etymological claim that it is Russian origin. For the etymological claim, it is not certain that "smetana" entered English from Russian -- the source given for this in the article is not an etymological authority of the English language, but rather a Finnish guide to various dairy products. For the removal of the words in various languages, these words do mean the dairy product described in the article. For example (and this is cited as one of the references), "Schmand/Schmetten" is the German word for smetana, compared with the word "Sahne" for (sweet) cream. In Polish, "śmietana" gets translated into English as "cream", because it can be used for the sweet variety as well. However, by default it refers to the soured cream described in the article, whereas the sweet one is called "śmietanka" or "słodka śmietana" (sweet cream). See the Polish WP article, which makes no doubts about the use of that word for the sour variety. "Śmietana" is simply the word used in Polish to this dairy product, which is a major ingredient in the cuisine. While I don't know the other languages listed, I imagine the situation is similar and the translations of these words into English as "cream" just disregard the culinary differences or have to account for the broadest possible use of the term (which is not the most common).


 * I agree with you, however, that this article should not be merged with sour cream. As explained in the article, it has much different cooking properties than the sweeter creams used in Western Europe and the US. In the Finnish dairy page it even indicates that the fat content is are different. -Krasnoludek (talk) 16:54, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Name
Should we really have to include a list of names for "Cream" in other languages? I mean the article for "Dog" isn't going to list 101 names for Dogs in other languages. . . . .Biocrite (talk) 01:00, 21 April 2010 (UTC)