Talk:Smokers Die Younger

Untitled
The tone of this article needs serious work. It is not encyclopedic.

Notability is also questioned. Entry on Discogs appears to have been self-promotional by its submitter. - CobaltBlueTony 16:17, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Have now altered the tone.

Notability:
One of the criteria for notability concerns band members' previous work. Golf most clearly ticks this box. I would argue that Trout does as well, since his previous bands have been influential and received critical acclaim even though they have been commercially unsuccessful. But those bands stretch back to 1986, so online verification of this does not seem available.

The band are published by Thee Sheffield Phonographic Corporation, a highly regarded independent label who have a wikipedia entry.

To see an example of NME's coverage of the band's club night, see here: http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/robertbrown83/Untitled-3.jpg

(I found that image from the club night's website. The band themselves have also been discussed in NME more than once, but their own website merely promises images of those articles to come.)

They have been the subject of a feature article in the respected music magazine Sandman: http://www.sandmanmagazine.co.uk/sandman/issues/04.06/Features/smokers.html (To find out more about the magazine, see: http://www.sandmanmagazine.co.uk/)

To see further examples of reviews of their work in reputable places: http://smokersdieyounger.com/XREV.HTML http://smokersdieyounger.com/5-0REV.HTML http://smokersdieyounger.com/SDYREV.HTML

Oh, and: entry on discogs is not self-promotional, as it does not promote myself. I have nothing to do with the band.

- Dr. Jon 16:50, 5 July 2006 (GMT)

=Band notability criteria= From WP:MUSIC, the criteria for notability are as follows:

Musicians and ensembles
There are a lot of bands, singers and other musicians and musical ensembles with articles in the Wikipedia (see Category:Musicians).

A musician or ensemble (note that this includes a band, singer, rapper, orchestra, hip hop crew, DJ etc) is notable if it meets any one of the following criteria:
 * Has had a charted hit on any national music chart, in at least one large or medium-sized country.
 * Has had a record certified gold or higher in at least one large or medium-sized country.
 * Has gone on an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in at least one large or medium-sized country, reported in notable and verifiable sources.
 * Has released two or more albums on a major label or one of the more important indie labels (i.e. an independent label with a history of more than a few years and a roster of performers, many of which are notable).
 * Has been featured in multiple non-trivial published works in reliable and reputable media (excludes things like school newspapers, personal blogs, etc...).
 * Contains at least one member who was once a part of or later joined a band that is otherwise notable; note that it is often most appropriate to use redirects in place of articles on side projects, early bands and such.
 * Has become the most prominent representative of a notable style or the local scene of a city (or both, as in British hip hop); note that the subject must still meet all ordinary Wikipedia standards, including verifiability.
 * Has won a major music award, such as a Grammy, Juno or Mercury Music Award.
 * Has won or placed in a major music competition.
 * Has performed music for a work of media that is notable, e.g. a theme for a network television show. (But if this is the only claim, it is probably more appropriate to have a mention in the main article and redirect to that page.)
 * Has been placed in rotation nationally by any major radio network.
 * Has been the subject of a half hour or longer broadcast on a national radio network.

Dr. Jon, can you verify any of the preceding points? If you can, we can drop the music notability tag at the top of the article, and we can progress from there. Thanks for your help! - CobaltBlueTony 17:23, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree the piece maybe needs a bit of work, but my twopenneth on notability...


 * The band are instrumental in hosting Electric Blanket, one of the most respected underground club nights in Sheffield, that has been featured in NME and elsewhere.


 * Golf and Trout have weaved through so many Sheffield bands they're part of the city's musical fabric.


 * Their debut single was Rough Trade Shops' single of the week, and was well received in the music press.


 * They have an album and single on Thee Sheffield Phonographic Corporation, a highly respected Sheffield label that also has a roster that includes The Long Blondes and Monkey Swallows the Universe.


 * There are a number of other Wikipedia entries for as-yet (in Wikipedia standards) inconsequential Sheffield pub bands that have evidentally created their own pages as promotional tools (The Golden Age (band), The Way Of All Flesh (band), Spheres of Chaos (Band), Firegarden) and it saddens me that no-one ever picks up on these as unimportant, yet someone always seems to jump on pages like this for speedy deletion. I'd say this page needs a bit of rewording but otherwise should be kept, as SDY are (in my opinion) an integral part of an important city's musical scene, despite a lack of mainstream chart success. Yes the original versions were frankly terrible as encylopedia entries, but this doesn't detract from the relevance of the band, and I hope the powers that be can be persuaded to keep their page! Petemella 17:16, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Smokers... is, Smokers... are
I see there's been some changes as to whether the page starts "Smokers Die Younger are..." or "Smokers Die Younger is...". Surely as a British band, it should be the more more English "are" rather than the American "is"? (i.e. in the UK we'd say "Oasis are a band from Manchester", whereas Americans would say "REM is a band from Georgia"). Petemella 18:08, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Some changes I've made and why

 * I've added an infobox, which incorporates the pic and band members, as well as other info.


 * I've used the band's real names alongside nicknames, which makes it look less insidery (Golf is credited as James on the band's album, for example).

Some other suggestions...


 * I'm not sure how much some of the text warrants bold type.


 * Maybe incorporating the band facts and pre-history into the main text, as in my opinion they are not particularly interesting enough to warrant subsections. And Rhys and Graham didn't "do nothing" before Smokers... they just weren't in any bands!

Petemella 17:11, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Changes

 * I have removed the infobox, as it simply repeated some of the info from the main text, without explanation of why it left other bits out (esp. with reference to genres!). I think this kind of summary box only works when the main article is long enough to warrant a summary, and that is only going to happen when the band is very well established.


 * The names used here are not "insidery": the band usually list themselves by them -- on both their vinyl singles, on their myspace site (their names do not appear anywhere on their official site), on discogs and on MusicBrainz; in fact, the only divergence from this rule is that Golf appears as James on the album inlay; and unless you know that he is called Golf, you don't understand one of the lines in their anthem SDY (or its reference to the more popular Kermit Song).


 * Subsections make navigation of the information easier.


 * Rhys and G-Had were in a band before forming Smokers Die Younger, but they didn't do anything!

Dr Jon 13:53, 11 July 2006 (GMT)

Notability
CobaltBlueTony: I am working on getting the verification you ask for, and will post it here soon. Thanks for all your help so far!

Dr Jon 13:58, 11 July 2006 (GMT)

Notability
CobaltBlueTony: Here at last is the verification you ask for. Apologies for the delay -- I have been away.

Some examples of their featuring in multiple non-trivial published works in reliable and reputable media:
http://www.picturehosting.org/images/DoctorJon/nme6may06p17.jpg
 * Here they are listed as central to Sheffield's live music scene in an article in NME (6 May 2006, p. 17):

http://www.picturehosting.org/images/DoctorJon/independentonsundayabc2april06p2.jpg
 * Here their album is listed as number 3 in a top ten of must-buy records in The Independent on Sunday's magazine ABC (2 April 2006, p. 2) -- you may have to zoom in to see it:

http://www.picturehosting.org/images/DoctorJon/sandmanapril06p10.jpg
 * Here is a full-page article about them in Sandman, a well-respected magazine covering music in the north of England (April 2006 issue, p. 10):

http://www.picturehosting.org/images/DoctorJon/timeout15march06p99.jpg
 * Here a gig of theirs is listed in Time Out (London), on a page that lists only recommended gigs (15 March 2006, p. 99) -- again, you may need to zoom in on it:

Prominent representative of a notable style or the local scene of a city:
See the NME article already mentioned, here: http://www.picturehosting.org/images/DoctorJon/nme6may06p17.jpg

Contains at least one member who was once a part of or later joined a band that is otherwise notable:
Trout (aka Chris Trout) was a key player in a number of notable UK indie bands over the last couple of decades.

http://www.mute.com/artists/publicArtistLoad.do?id=2097&forward=fullDiscography
 * A. C. Temple (not yet got a wikipedia page -- but will have soon!), who published four albums through notable indie label Blast First, which was a sub-label of Mute Records. Here is the evidence of that band's notability:

Trout was not in the band for the first two of these albums. The best online verification of his part in the band is here: http://search.reviews.ebay.co.uk/Blowtorch_EAN_5016027610066_W0QQfvcsZ1277QQsoprZ4011532

http://www.answers.com/topic/spoonfed-hybrid
 * He also had a short-lived band called Spoonfed Hybrid (again, no wikipedia article yet). This was a duo with Ian Masters of Pale Saints and is mentioned on their wikipedia page. It published through 4AD Records. More info about that band here:

http://www.nme.com/reviews/3081.htm
 * More recently, he had a band called Bear (again, no wikipedia page yet). Here is a somewhat uncomplimentary NME review of one of Bear's albums - which also mentions one of Trout's previous bands:


 * Other notable bands of his include Lazerboy, Coping Saw, and Kilgore Trout (the 80s UK alternative rock band, not the more recent US band of the same name), but I don't seem to be able to find much about these bands on the internet.

Golf was the original bassist in 65daysofstatic, but I don't seem to be able to find online verification of this either.

Hope this is enough! All the best, Jon

Dr Jon 16:12, 13 July 2006 (GMT)

More Notability
Clearly, it was not enough. Though I do not understand why not. The page listing notability criteria says that a band 'is notable if it meets any one' of the 12 listed criteria. The information above shows clearly that this band meets more than that:

Criterion 1: see the references above to NME, The Independent on Sunday, Sandman, and Time Out.

Criterion 6: see the information about Trout's previous bands.

Criterion 7: see again the NME article listed above that describes them (rightly) as central to Sheffield's music scene. (See also the TV show listed below.)

And in response to the latest deletion request, here is more evidence of notability:

Criterion 7: In summer 2007, the band featured heavily in a television documentary about music in Sheffield aired as Rockbyen Sheffield on Danish channel DR2 and as an episode of the Musikbyrån series on Swedish channel SVT. See this page: 

Criterion 10: Appeared on the compilation CD Les Musiques Que J'aime, put together by fashion mogul Karl Lagerfeld of Chanel and published by French label Tolerance Records in association with Vogue Magazine in 2006. Here it is on Amazon: 

I do hope this really is enough this time.

If not, then in a few months' time, the band will release their second album through notable label Thee Sheffield Phonographic Corporation, thereby meeting criterion 5 as well.

All the best, Jon

Dr Jon 10:07, 9 November 2007 (GMT)

Unreferenced tag
I have added the unreferenced tag to the page. There are plenty of links above; I recommend you start sourcing things (especially stuff like the claim that Golf was a member of 65daysofstatic). Thanks. --Anon 67.187.38.109 (talk) 01:14, 2 January 2008 (UTC)