Talk:Smurf communism/Archive 1

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Age of the Meme
Just some extra input - I believe it pre-dates the 1990s. Certainly, I had a high-school teacher who used the Smurfs to help explain Communism in 1988. - pvanhiel@gmail.com

AfD
This article was the subject of a deletion request in October 2005. The result was keep. -- BrianSmithson 06:32, 24 December 2005 (UTC)


 * User:Curps has created a deltion request for this article, even though it ha lready been thourgh it already —Preceding unsigned comment added by Larsinio (talk • contribs) --18:58, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The last vote was a bit of a sockpuppet fest? no? I mean 19 people who apparently found smurf communism so interesting that it's AfD was the only thing they ever edited?--205.188.116.12 21:49, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Problems with the article
In case this is kept I'd like to indicate a few problems with this article. In the cartoon in least Handy clearly fell in love with some green mermaid lady. Fights amongst the others over a girl would be childish because it was still ultimately a show for children. I don't think Brainy was ever permanently exiled and in several cases Papa defended him to the others. So the Brainy/Trotsky idea seems a tad off.(Well it all does, but you know more off)--T. Anthony 16:45, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

don't delete, this page has some interesting information.

i agree this is very interesting.


 * The deletion discussion seems to be going decidedly for keeping it. Here's two theories I remember having as a kid, and elsewhen, on the Smurfs system. (This comes from reading history books at 11 and enjoying the Smurfs into my teens)

-The Smurfs are a stateless village society akin to some in Africa, like the Ibo or Dogon. There are no cops and Papa's authority seem purely based on his respect as an elder. To assure this primitivist tradition-based anarchy new inventions or ideas are strongly discouraged. Hence most everything Handy invents is discarded or rejected. Added to that any more modern economic ideas fail or are rejected.(Like the Financial Smurf deal) Finally the Smurfs, like many African peoples, are animistic or shamanistic. There is magic, nature spirits, etc. Papa could be a kind of medicine man or shaman. However there is no God or organized theology. (To me this seems the easiest to justify from the show.)

-The Smurfs are a monastic society or possibly a representation of the Vatican. Like a monastery most everyone has a specific job and is a male. There are a couple females, but these are taken in out of charity. Although rare it wasn't unheard of for monasteries in the Middle ages to take in a woman who had nowhere else to go. The Smurf calendar seems to revolve around many singing festivals as monasticism revolved around chanting. Papa Smurf is like an abbot and also like a priest in that he is the one who does their rituals or leads them in song. As for the Vatican in it, or Medieval Papal states, you have a group of males with red hats and the "Papa" with a white hat. The Smurfs simply reverse that with Papa in a red hat and everyone else in white. In the Papal states there were women and added to that among the Smurfs all women are redeemed servants of evil. (Possibly a commentary on Medieval Catholic misogynism)

-The Smurfs are an anarcho-socialist or transcendalist commune, akin to Brook Farm or Oneida. Papa is like Noyes or Fourier or the like. He had the idea and then gathered recruits to it. In the parlance of the show "babies"(new recruits) were brought by the stork(advertising) on a special moon(unique sociological conditions causing the idea to be appealing).

This would all be original research so I'll leave it here. Especially as the Communist theory is the most popular online and therefore the easiest to research. Well that and it's the article's title. I think when I began thinking of the Smurfs in anthropological and political terms is when I started thinking I was too old for it. In a related vein is there anything at Wiki on the theories concerning The Wonderful Wizard of Oz?--T. Anthony 04:53, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

This article should me much more clearly stated as speculation from some people. There are a huge lot of limits and problems with this assimilation of smurfs and communism. Some are stated above, such as weaknesses in the comparison Trotsky/Brainy. Many other theories, such as presented above would me no less valid. Some other problems are:

- Why would Gargamel produce a "aryan" smurfette to seduce the smurfs? If they are communists, why an aryan girl would be appealing for them?

- An error in the article (but I prefer not to correct myself): the smurf economy is not a planned economy as stated in the section "Economics". It is decentralized, as everyone uses its own skills in its way. Only general public infrastructure works (such as bridge over the river), and collection of some vital goods are collectively made under supervision of Papa Smurf. Papa Smurf has no political, economical, or cultural (where is it stated that he decided that all smurfs are to be clothed equally?) power over the smurfs, except in danger or emergency times. Only has he a moral authority, as described above in the example of the traditional society described above by T. Anthony. In fact, the smurf economy does not hold because of market forces or planned authority, but only because of the utopian good will of the smurfs.

- Gargamel, as a capitalist, is a very poorly efficient one... Does anyone have seen the huge amounts of capital that he accumulated in his house?

- In all the smurfs albums, many adventures happen to the smurfs, that can be seen as metaphors of a lot of society problems, all problems that are more relevant and explained as in a socio-liberal democracy (ethnical conflicts, individual dreams, desires and competition, for example, are less relevant in a communist authoritarian society where there are most likely discarded). The metaphor of the belgian political life is obvious (hum, for a belgian) in one album, and has nothing to do with communism. The body of works from Peyo (the cartoons) embraces a large number of topics, and the utopian smurf society is usually just a mere background for the history.

- They don't really wear all the same suit: they have individual features designed on the same basic clothing.

- More simple and meaningful explanations of the physical appearance of the characters can be provided, using our shared "occidental" body of cultural references:

-> white beard: wise old man

-> glasses: this bothering know-it-all nerd, we all know one

-> ugly scary men in black: the bad guy, dark sorcerer

-> blonde girl with a good make-up: more beautiful than brown girl: I am sorry, I personaly don't have particularly that kind of tastes, but the fact is that stereotypically, a sexy girl is blonde, at least in belgium where Peyo designed its smurfette. (This is why, as blonde women are the most typical and most "interresting par of the women, the dumb women in the jokes are blondes). And it has nothing to do with aryanism, it is a general cultural phenomena, in large parts of Europe at least (I would not speak for the rest of the world)(I could put Maghreb too). Evolutionary psychologists have lots of theories about that, but wathever, either you assume that most occidental peoples have been touched by nazist ideology of the aryan racism, or you can assume that there is no particular reason why this blonde should be more "aryanized" than any other "desired" blonde. And, further, although the smurfette is physically transformed, it is not transformed from a "bad" to a "good" smurf. The transformation is proposed by Papa Smurf only because smurfs were not kind with the Smurfette. As a metaphor, it is much more clearly a metaphor of two phenomenons: first, people are much more kind with beautiful ones than with ugly ones, and this makes ugly ones becomes more angry, and beautiful ones becomes more sociable. Second, a metaphor of the quest for physical appearance, esthetic surgery, desire to seduce, etc...

Well, if the discussion led to keeping this page, I do not want to throw this decison away, but I think that:

- The "critics" page should be more documented (see above)

- It should be more clearly stated that this is speculation and that Peyo never endorsed this view (? as far as I know, and as stated in the French "Schtroumpfs" page)

- It should be explaiend that this political metaphor is based on a confusion between a communist society (authoritative, and centrally planned) and an utopian anarcho-socialisto-traditional society, which is more close to the actual working of the smurf society. The term "communist" is only suitable if one tries to put in the same basket these two kinds of working ways, which seems to be an attempt to discredit them as kinds of soviets dictatorships and "red threats". This political interpretation dates from an old bipolar era...

As I am not english-speaker, I think it is better that I don't directly edit the page, but it would be good... LeLievre 14:28, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Hum, in some texts (see the first link given), it is explained that the role of Brainy Smurf is an evidence of the smurfs being communists, because "Marx theory of communism was based on the rejection of the conservative intelligentsia", here represented by Brainy Smurf. In this page, it is supposed that Brainy Smurf is Trotski, which is not exactly a member of the conservative intelligentsia. Inconsistency in the theory? Un lievre 17:46, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

"Disney's frequent use of sexual symbolism" ?? Another empirically unsupported statement? This sentence should be re-written to be non-POV. Un lievre 08:59, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Pardon me if this is already in the article, and I missed, but I think that it needs something telling about how most of the smurfs trouble arise when one of them does something that is not in the best interest of the community. I would add it myself, but I am not sure whare to put it. 82.192.146.25 19:46, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

The artcile says: "[the smurf economy] is more close to an utopian anarchist or libertarian society, or to a primitive community economy, than a society inspired by communism and planification." I believe we should consider changing "communism" to "socialism". Under communism, there is no central planning. That would be the socialist stage on the route to communism. Communism itself ( as espoused by Marx) is basically a form of what we call anarcho-communism. The same thing applies to the later discussion of communism using "exchange value artifacts." Under Marx's communism, there would be no need for these. Only under the stage of socialism.

I can understand why we might continue using the term "communism" because it is commonly associated with the state-planned economies ( which called themselves communist) that have existed so far. However, as Papa Smurf is supposed to be representative of Marx (not Stalin, Lenin etc) should we not use the phraseology of Marx himself, and not confuse his ideas of socialism with communism?DartSprt 06:11, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

-> I agree with DartSprt's remarks, but as the common understanding of communism is 'state-planned economies',there should be a (brief) explanation of what is understood here under the term "communism". It could be sthg like "[the smurf economy] is more close to an utopian anarchist or libertarian society, or to a primitive community economy, or a communist society in Marx's assumption of the term, than a society inspired by central planning and the "real socialism" Un lievre 16:21, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Ditch the Communism template
For one thing, it's pushing all the text on my screen down and leaving a big white space. More importantly, it's not very smurfy. BD2412 talk 05:16, 11 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't have that happening on my browser (FireFox). But, instead, the section "Edit" links, don't seem to display properly.  Anyhow, I would support it's removal.  The "See also" section, and links in the article is plenty (for those wanting those links).  The template implies this is apart of some related group of articles, which it isn't.   --rob 05:36, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
 * It has been removed, which is for the best (everything sits right for me, now). In any event, for our fellow editor who keeps trying to work in a "Jewish Gargamel" theory, I have noted on his talk page that "The colors of the Israeli flag are blue and white - clearly the smurfs represent Judaism!" BD2412  talk 05:40, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Anti-Semitism
The potential stereotypes in Gargamel's appearance are mentioned in the websites cited at the end, and it seems just as valid as the rest of the speculation in the article. I hardly see how it is uniquely "silly". Looking at his picture, it seems like a reasonable observation to me. Considering that Communist propaganda regarding Jewish industrialists and financiers used these stereotypes, I think it is a valid thing to include. Tfine80 05:20, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * And yet Karl Marx - here analogized to Papa Smurf was a Jew - and the Smurfs are adorned in the colors of Israel. BD2412  talk 05:43, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree it is much more complicated... Couldn't one also see the Smurf environment as a Kibbutz? It is very multi-faceted. Tfine80 05:53, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * This delves too closely into original research - the purpose of this article is to report on an existing phenomenon out there in the world, i.e. that Smurf society has attributes of communism. I've seen nothing out there comparing any element of the Smurfs to Judaism, so there is nothing for Wikipedia to report on it. BD2412  talk 13:22, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Phrygian cap?
Is that a Phrygian cap they're wearing? see: www.probertencyclopaedia.com/j/Phrygian%20Cap.jpg bogdan 19:28, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Tomservo3000 03:04, 18 January 2006 (UTC)wouldn't that only be papa smurf?
 * They all wear the same style cap; only Papa's is red, tho. bd2412  T 04:51, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Don Dueck on Smurf Communism
I just remembered Don Dueck's take on the subject. In the August 16, 2005 update entitled "The Smurfy Menace", Don talks about a scene in the episode "St. Smurf And The Dragon" involving Brainy Smurf trying to steal a chicken egg. It's at the very bottom of the page, so the next time he updates, it will end up in the "Old News" section. - NES Boy 23:38, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Title Change Request
While I find the subject of communist themes in the smurfs to be an intresting and valuable subject for the Wikipedia, I think the title of "Smurf Communism" does not convey the actual meaning of the article. Something like "Communism in the Smurfs" or "Smurfs and Communism" might be more accurate. I know if I was searching for information on the subject I would not search for the "Smurf Communism." I would change the title myself, but since it is currently under a peer review request, which is how I found the article, I will leave it up to others to decide if it should be changed.


 * I agree, we could just do the move though it might be worthwhile to wait and see if anyone objects. It might also be worthwhile to leave a note on any of the major edirots talk pages to make sure they see this. Dalf | Talk 10:33, 14 January 2006 (UTC)


 * You got a point there, but when you change the title to Communism in the Smurfs, it should be something like Communism in "The Smurfs" in which "The Smurfs" refers to the comic book or the television program, and a title with these (" ") in it isn't a good title. But I definitely do agree with changing the name to "Smurfs and Communism" since "Smurf Communism" sounds too much like a real existing ideology. Taarten Gâteaux 15:23, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with the idea of moving, and I'm going to go ahead and do it. I'm not sure I understand Taarten's suggestion.  I'm going with The Smurfs and communism.  I don't think communism needs to be capitalized, according to my understanding of the article naming convention.  ike9898 15:33, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I fixed all the wikilinks that point to this article from other articles. I didn't fix any that came from User, talk or other types of pages.  Not really necessary, right? ike9898 15:43, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Cool, thanks I think that title is just fine. Dalf | Talk 04:10, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Color of International Communism?
The following sentence seems somewhat ambiguous:

"He also wears red slacks and a red cap, displaying the color of International Communism"

Technically, that implies that the domestic color representing communism in any given communistic country is different. The capitalization also infers that there is an official body called "International Communism" (much like the Bolshevik COMINTERN) which has its own internationally recognized color. Perhaps "He also wears red slacks and a red cap, displaying the stereotypical color of Communism throughout the world" would be a better solution (though not the best); clearly the sentence needs work. Roger2dc 10:49, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Great subject, but...
This is a fascinating subject, but I wonder what part of it is not original research? Kaisershatner 16:31, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Look around a bit on google, you will find this is not a new idea (and is infact a lot older than wikipedia). Dalf | Talk 21:33, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Discussion of intentionality
I think there should be a better discussion of whether or not people involved with the creation of the comics or cartoons intended these parallels. Any evidence they held communism ideals in their lifes outside their Smurf work? You know some similar phenomena, such as the Wizard of Oz-Dark Side of the Moon Synchronicity, are believed to be totally uninentional. ike9898 15:49, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Odd that you'd bring up Wizard of Oz as the "Wizard as metaphor for Populist Party" is a similar deal, although we probably mentioned it. Unfortunately I couldn't find the political viewpoint of Peyo when I worked on this article and I'm not sure if it can be found.--T. Anthony 15:31, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah I did mention Political interpretations of The Wonderful Wizard of Oz--T. Anthony 15:32, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I have no source for it at the moment, but from interviews with Peyo I've read, and from his biography (in French only, I believe), and seeing what kind of magazine he worked for, he comes across as a typical slightly conservative christian with some male chauvinist tendencies (though nothing specatacular when seen in his time). He was definitely a capitalist, very much interested in the financial aspect of the Smurfs and how he could make money out of them, but he didn't want to sell his soul for it (i.e. he resisted often changes suggested by Hanna-Barbera because they went against the spirit of his comics). One of his other major series, Johan and Peewit, is about a knight defending a good king. Hardly communist stuff, I would think... Fram 09:24, 25 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm if he was Christian this makes me wonder about something I found myself thinking when working on this. In several respects the Smurfs are more like a Medieval monastery. Initially they had no females and women remain an idealized presence. Each person has a specific job and there is a specific garb. "Papa" can be a title for a minister, priest, or abbot. Like an abbot "Papa" tries to maintain discipline, but unlike a king or president he can't arrest anyone.--T. Anthony 00:46, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Could someone involved with the US animated series be responsible for inserting the communist ideology? The article states that these aspects are more prominent in the animated series than in the French comics. ike9898 14:48, 25 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Likely not, it's probably only because the American public is more familiar with the animated series. 惑乱 分からん 02:09, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * A lot of Japanimation fans dislike watching dubbed shows because the dubs sometimes change parts of the show or change the roles of characters by doing it slightly differently to the original Japanese versions, so it's possible, but without proof it's just idle conjecture. Mind you, so is most of this article since none of this can be proven to be intentional, so it could be worth a mention.  It's not an urgent matter, either way.  John Coxon 16:15, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Has anyone mentioned the fact that when smurfs read from books, the letters are cyrillic? I always found that to be one of the most compelling things in favor of the communism theory. Ornitorinco


 * Any evidence for that? I can't remember a single instance where they had cyrillic characters (in the comics at least: I don't know that much about the cartoons, which are much later and less canonical anyway). Fram 08:08, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Aryan again
I think the idea of aryan belongs rather to the politics of fascism, than to communism, regardless of the anti-semitic claims. I don't think physical beauty is of any high importance in a communist state, where the most important factor is to be a good worker and to serve the community. In fascism, physical beauty and strength is very important, likely an important defining factor of a human's value, whereas in a communist state, the most important factor is to be a good worker and to serve the community, and in capitalism, of course, physical beauty has become means of merchandise. Some 2 cents. 惑乱 分からん 02:07, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Using "smurf"
"This is similar to what was practiced under Soviet Russia." What? The habit of saying "smurf in each sentence??? If no answer, this sentence should disappear.

BWAHH??!
Was searching for possible book mentions of this theory and found from a Google Book Search: "Thus it is hardly surprising that some Israeli kindergartners pretend that Israelis are Smurfs (good guys) and Palestinians portray Gargamel (a bad guy" - from Sociology: A Global Perspective by Joan Ferrante.Schizombie 07:32, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Pronatalism?
I found this block of text misleading: "But in history, communist societies have rarely decided to promote a zero population growth. On the contrary, communist states have usually promoted a natality policy that was aimed at providing labour force for economic development and demographic power for international politics." That might have been true in the Soviet Union, but it certainly isn't true for China, which is very well known for rejecting natalism and enforcing a one-child policy. I don't know about population policies in countries such as Laos, Vietnam, or Cuba, but I don't think it's a good idea to overlook such a primary case, especially considering how few states have styled themselves communist. Sarge Baldy 15:22, 24 February 2006 (UTC)


 * in refrence to chin'a one-child policy, that was created in reaction to mao's promotion of natality. overpopulation and the like. thats why china is so huge, population wise

Azrael
The name Azrael does not have semitic origins at all... It is the name of the Islamic angel of death and is an Anglicized form of an Arabic name. --Berserk798 02:25, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Marx: Jewish?
"an ironic practice considering that Marx was Jewish" To the best of my knowledge, Marx's father converted to Christianity before Marx was born, making this comment erroneous. I have deleted it, but if anyone has evidence that Marx was jewish then you can put it back in.


 * He is sometimes deemed Jewish as he was of Jewish ancestry. It's kind of a confusing issue. For example Teresa of Ávila was likely of Jewish ancestry, but as a sixteenth century Catholic I think she would've deemed being called "Jewish" offensive regardless of Halakha rules. Still see Who is a Jew? for some discussion of it. --T. Anthony 11:32, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Glaring example of OR
There is so much in this article that reeks of OR it really needs to be fixed or deleted. The article is rife with statments which would be immedietley deleted in articles with editors more savy to wikipedia standards. Any time you see phrases like "but its more correct to say" you really have to be on your toes. Please fix it with citing, and if it can't be cited, make sacrifices. Brentt 21:31, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Papasmurf.jpg
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Comy??? Maybe all american!
Red, White, and Blue?? Uncle Sam has a beard. Much like government, in the smurfs ideal world Papa Smurf take care of the law and government day to day bussiness, and such. Yet the Smurfs rally together in a people's malitia to save the day under the leadership of Papa Smurf? But then again they are Smurfs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

Anti-Semitism too?
I notice that Gargamel looks like a stereotypical jew, and his cat, called Azrael, I know I sound like Alex Jones but maybe??? (Sorry if I made a mistake i'm new to editing!) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.74.62.128 (talk) 14:04, 11 June 2020 (UTC)