Talk:Snake Island (Ukraine)

Geography
Fixed some geographic mistakes. People, I don't have maps etc. but I've seen TV pictures from the isle many times. It is not "5 square kilometers" ANYWAY (otherwise Romanians wouldn't call it a cliff). Thus, there are no place for "1000 fishermen" (also, there was no pier there as of 2003). I estimate it's under 500 meters long (any side). That is why I call it "the isle" in the text. AlexPU 17:08, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

History
I found ancient history remarks little doubtfull, but didn't change significantly since I'm no expert. AlexPU 17:08, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I found these references:


 * "The White Isle also a place where some were sent after death?was supposed to be a wooded island at the mouths of the river Ister (Danube)."


 * "The legends seem to carry a grain of truth as the ruins of the famous temple dedicated to Achilles were found by captain Kritziky in 1823. Square in shape, with the side of 29.87 meters, the building is great. The temple dedicated to Achilles was erected east of the sanctuary. The architecture of the construction and of the other ruins found on the island is specific to the epoch called Cyclopean, resembling the masonry found in Thessaly and Thrace."

Bogdan | Talk 20:22, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Possession
Deopinionated items concerning the territorial dispute, but didn't delete anything. Ukrainian government's POV is not presented. Hope to add it ASAP. AlexPU 17:08, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * OK. I couldn't find their POV.


 * People, I shaped the factual details in an NPOV way. I remember that bank opening newscast - it definitely had nothing to do with "proving" (let's not arrogate journalists' comments to the heroes of their story). Also reshuffled the categories. And more: do we need the following passage:


 * The nearest city on the coast is Sulina, Romania.?


 * I mean if this is a conventional geographical info on islands than it's OK. If not - I'm going to remove it as irrelevant and clearly designed to promote Romanian POV). Keen to maintain editing peace, AlexPU

The 1997 treaty confirmed the borders of 1947, but did not say that the island belongs to Ukraine. Romania agreed that for now the island is under Ukrainian administration (which is not the same thing) and that it will not pursue any unilateral means to gain control of the island and will do so only through diplomatic chanels. Constantzeanu 02:05, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, after getting more info, I have drawn the following conclusion : Romania did say that the island is under Ukranian administration and that it will not try to get it from Ukraine unilatrally. However, Romania also claims that the island is a cliff, meaning that it does not have an island status as described by international law. This means that it is as if it did not even exist there. It is like a rock in the sea. The Romanians have concentrated on proving that Serpents Is. is not a an island (as defined by int. law) and if it can do so then it can gain enough territorial waters that it can make the island part of Romania anyways. In any case here is a source which states that Ukraine was not supposed to inhabit the island (according to the 1997 treaty): Constantzeanu 03:05, 31 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The text of 1997 Romania-Ukraine treaty is available (in Romanian and English) in the package submitted by Romania to ICJ . It's also available (in Ukrainian) from the Ukrainian parliament website . Constantzeanu, could you point out where in the treaty Ukraine agreed that the island should be "inhabited". Uapatriot 21:25, 31 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Wow, I never knew the treaty can be declared null after 10 years. In any case, I think that we are missing some annexes here or something. Because somehwere here they are supposed to talk about negotiations over territorial waters for 2 years but I don't see that anywhere. Constantzeanu 23:57, 31 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The island is located 35 km from the Ukrainian coast. Sulina is 45 km away. Reference: "Parliament courier" (in Ukrainian). Also, the island, the Black sea coast, and the Romania-Ukraine boarder are all visible on Google Map.

My error, in attempting to clarify language in the article, has been anonymously pointed out at my Talk Page: "You mentioned in the article that Romania is questioning Snake Island status in the International Court of Justice, but this information is not correct. According to the standing Romania-Ukraine treaties, Snake island is a part of Ukraine. Official Romania has only asked the court for Maritime Delimitation around Snake island [1], not questioning the belongings of the island. It's true that some parties in Romania do question the belongings of Snake island, but it should not be mixed with the official view of Romania." --Wetman 20:48, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

In 1997 Ukrainian-Romanian treaty the word "inhabited" cannot be found even using internal search. So the sentence claiming that Ukraine breaks such a condition of this treaty should be deleted. --Shao 20:17, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

The court at Haga decided that the island is Romanian land--188.27.127.101 (talk) 16:59, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Page title
As it seems Snake Island (Black Sea) may also refer to a Bulgarian islet (currently at St. Thomas Island) that is also in the Black Sea, so the name is quite ambigious. The Bulgarian islet is actually more often referred to as Snake Island than St. Thomas Island. Any suggestions as to how to solve the problem? Does putting a disambiguation note on top of this article seem enough? Todor Bozh inov   → 18:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Snakes
What snakes are there on this island? Dysmorodrepanis 23:41, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Currently there aren't any more snakes on the island/cliff --Ayceman (talk) 21:54, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, so what snakes were there? Are there museum specimens? I ask because it's a rather unusual place to find snakes, biogeographically. Not impossible - in fact, one would even expect them. But one would also expect that only particular species would have managed to cross over from the mainland, and that they had differentiated from their ancestors. So it is to be expected that the snake fauna of this island was peculiar in some way or another.
 * Since the name seems to date back to Ottoman times, I presume the Kyiv Academy of Sciences may not be of much help here. But possibly, some scientist down there has published something in Soviet times; if so, we'd have a reliable source (taxonomy would probably need to be updated, as always with older literature). I'll have a look on the Web occasionally. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 16:06, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Serpent Island in myths
Check this link http://www.pelasgians.bigpondhosting.com/website1/01_00.htm, is the english translation with maps, images and all, of "Dacia Preistorica by Nicolae Densusianu. Bigshotnews 14:09, 8 December 2010 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigshotnews (talk • contribs)

Interesting
According to the British wartime press the Germans had planned in 1918 to "construct" a "new Helgoland" on Snake Island. It could have been just wartime propaganda on either side though. Tijfo098 (talk) 21:14, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Amusing wikiality
The Romanian Wikipedia Feature Article says "population 0". The Ukrainian one (also a Featured Article) says "100". Tijfo098 (talk) 22:32, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Ambiguities
Whether or not (as controverted above in “Possession”) the island is to be, or is declared to be, “inhabited,” this article is equivocal about its population, saying in its introductory summary that fewer than thirty lived there a decade ago and then, in the section “Population and infrastructure,” that about 100 do just in Bile. Territorial dispute may play in, as Tijfo098 suggests above (“Amusing wikiality”), but the estimates are confusing. If the population of thirty is outdated, it warrants removal.

Further, is the Ostriv Zmiinyi marine research station re-established each year, or do Odessa university students simply do research there yearly? In the latter case, the syntax in the section “Population and infrastructure” ought to be altered to read, “an initiative ... established the Ostriv Zmiinyi marine research station, at which, every year, scientists and students from the university conduct research….”

Edit requested on 15 March 2017
Snake Island does NOT belong to Ukraine, also Snake Island Lighthouse country information is wrong. Administration: Romania. This island is NOT part of Ukraine and never was. Thank you, please edit for proper information.
 * As far as I can tell the territorial status of the island is still under dispute. I am not going to change the wording of the article with respect to national sovereignty before you establish a consensus here on the talk page, which is required for such a contentious topic. Altamel (talk) 01:17, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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Semi-protected edit request on 20 April 2021
Change Administration to Romania as this island dispute has been brought up at ICJ and HAGA and the result is that it is of Romanias. False semi-protecting made by other user. Hydrootro (talk) 17:57, 20 April 2021 (UTC) Hydrootro (talk) 17:57, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:11, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protection request
The article is periodically vandalized by Romanians who change the island's affiliation from Ukraine to Romania. At the Romanian Wikipedia it is semi-protected starting today. The island has been Ukrainian territory since 1991 and previously belonged to the USSR since 1948.--Kun Kipcsak (talk) 08:52, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 February 2022
Change "Is an island belonging to Ukraine" to "is an island belonging to Russia" Knowledgeman3 (talk) 09:24, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Temporary military occupation does not make this island Russian territory. De jure it is still a Ukrainian island. Arado Ar 196 (talk) 15:06, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Guards killed hoax
I can't find any source that is still saying this. Keith McClary (talk) 06:51, 5 March 2022 (UTC)


 * And I don't see why this article needs to mention the question at all. There's an article about the battle or whatever the event should be called, and that article can take care of questions about who if anyone was killed, cursed, captured or whatever. If someone wants to dispute such questions, and apparently they do, that's where they should do it. This is a geographical article about a small island of some strategic value and small population, and can merely say Russian forces captured it. Jim.henderson (talk) 00:20, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Considering the impact/wide usage of the terms transmitted by the Ukrainian soldiers based in Snake Island, it would be very bizarre to not include at least a passing mention of what happened there instead of just saying "oh yeah btw, it was captured by Russia in February, 2022" Genabab (talk) 11:31, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Possible source for Ukrainian flag raising
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/07/ukrainian-navy-special-forces-spearhead-daring-snake-island-mission/

©Geni (talk) 22:45, 7 July 2022 (UTC)