Talk:Snake scale

Snake scales
Hi, am deploying a more or less full-fledged article rather than a stub. This is version 0.7 of User:AshLin/Snake scales. Request peer review. I really want this article to reach Good Article status. Thanks to Jwinius for special encouragement. AshLin 11:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Further direction
Hi,

I now intend to add a section on tail scales, as suggested by Jwinius and a reference to Snake scales in fiction a la Harry Potter etc.

I need guidance for dependable classification/taxonomy of snake families so that the snake families template is OK>

I also need suggestions on how to progress this article further as I am about to run out of ideas. Regards, AshLin 19:54, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * A few comments. Following a review of some of the Viperinae articles, it was suggested that more wikilinks be added to the description sections. That mostly means that work needs to be done on the articles related to scalation terminology. I did a few today: Labial scales, Rostral scale and Mental scale. Note also the many redirects I created for the Labial scales article -- that will making wlinking easier.
 * Coming back to Snake scales, I think it would be a good idea to somehow organize the Glossary of scales section. Like this, for example:
 * Head scales
 * Dorsal
 * Lateral
 * Ventral
 * Anterior
 * Body
 * Tail
 * Next, something I believe to be an error. In the section Morphology of scales / Surface and shape, there is a statement that reads "Other more advanced snakes have special large symmetrical scales on the head called shields or plates.". As far as I know, the reverse it true. The average colubrid, for example, which has large head plates and is non-venomous, is seen as primitive compared to the average viperid, which is venomous, has an efficient venom delivery apparatus and often lacks any enlarged head plates. It may be that this is a quote from Mr. Harry Green's book, but I doubt that many herpetologists agree with him.
 * Finally, regarding the references to various books in this article, a few tips. First, publication dates need to be included for each, along with the name of the publisher, the number of printed pages and its ISBN number (if it has one). For example:
 * Mehrtens JM. 1987. Living Snakes of the World in Color. New York: Sterling Publishers. 480 pp. ISBN 0-8069-6460-X.
 * Or, if the reference is a periodical, include the name of the periodical with volume number, page numbers and a link to a possible external web page or PDF file. For instance:
 * Warrell DA. 2005. Treatment of bites by adders and exotic venomous snakes. British Medical Journal 331:1244-7. PDF at bmj.com. Accessed 15 September 2006.
 * --Jwinius 23:21, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, now that I think of it, I'm not sure that you can say that large head plates have anything to do with how advanced a group of snakes is. Boids are among the most primitive snakes (those vestigial spurs and pelvic girdle) and usually lack any large head shields, but crotalines are considered the most advanced snakes, and most of these don't have any large head plates either. Then again, some of the most advanced snakes of all, rattlesnakes, often do have a few head plates, such as enlarged supraoculars, while Sistrurus are most easily distinguished from Crotalus by the fact that they have many more large head plates. In other words, maybe it's safer to just leave the whole statement out, or only quote something more recent. --Jwinius 13:56, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

GA feedback
I think the writing is spotty, much of the article is excellent, while other sections are not written in an encyclopedic tone. The lead section mostly makes claims about the function of scales (unsupported), when it might better summarise the topics covered in the body of the article.

An example of a problematic sentence: "Snakes can also 'hear' by sensing vibrations with their lower jaw and belly scales.[citation needed]". I am fairly sure that I can find a reference to support the statement that "Snakes can also 'hear' by sensing vibrations with their lower jaw and belly", it's the scales part that might be problematic. Is it really that scales that allow for the sensation of vibration, or is this a fact about snakes that has been shoe-horned into an article on snake scales?

The section "Use of scales in distinguishing between venomous and non-venous snakes" (venous?!), seems really just a subset of cases of the use of scale patterns in typing to species, which is covered by the section "Taxonomic importance" (which could use a better title, maybe "use of scales in identifying species" or somethting more descriptive). Having a special section on venomous vs. non-venomous snakes seems gratuitous. Sentences such as "Handling of live snakes by persons other than trained handlers for identification or any other reason is not advised." seem out of place in an article on snake scales, and typos in this section should be fixed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pete.Hurd (talk • contribs) 19:16, 17 March 2007 (UTC).
 * The GA reviewer's comments have been addressed by me and the article resubmitted for GA status. AshLin 09:51, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Some tips. First, do something about the images. Right now most of them seem unnecessarily large and close together to me. Remember that if readers want to see an image in more detail, they know to click on it, so it's okay to make the images appear smaller in the article. Also, the image of the banded krait's head can be cropped to cut out most the black background.

Second, there's too much use of bold type face. In my opinion, italic would look better for the scalation terms. Normal text would be better for the common names, or those could be left out entirely (hey, if you want to know what the animal looks like, click on the link).

Third, moulting? I believe the more popular scientific term for it these days is ecdysis. I also think this deserves a separate section, since IMHO ecdysis doesn't really have anything more to do with morphology (color and shape) than, say, eating habits. --Jwinius 01:37, 27 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Addressed your comments, however IMHO that in a snake scales articles the names of the various types of snake scales should stand out prominently. Other extra bolding has been done away with.AshLin 09:44, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Snake hearing
I just fixed that up a bit, with a citation. Might not have anything to do with the scales, but nobody knows for sure. --Zeizmic 02:07, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

UV reflectance
Skinks and many lizards seem to have UV reflective scales apart from being visually sensitive to UV. I am unable to find references to similar functions in snakes. Do they exist here ? Shyamal 10:43, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Although no references are cited, if this article is correct, the phenomenon does occur in at least some snakes. In my 1997 edition of Klauber's Rattlesnakes, he states that Atkins (1948) reported that rattlesnakes and copperheads flouresce a bright green under ultraviolet light. Klauber himself, however, could not confirm this. He tested a number of rattlesnake subspecies, including ruber, helleri, lutosus, cerastes and lateropens, but could detect no flourescense. Only the rattles had a slight flourescense, which was usually yellowish. Also, he found that the fangs flouresced brightly, with a light-green color. --Jwinius 12:25, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Very interesting. Thanks. I found a citation for it. Shyamal 12:49, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

GA On Hold
I'm putting this article on hold for the following minor things. As soon as these are addressed, the article can be passed. Overall an interesting article to read, the above are just minor things to fix. If you have questions or when you're done, drop a note on my talk page. Also I'm going to be on vacation from July 1 through July 23, so if you don't finish before then get another editor to finish up for me? Cheers, Corvus   coronoides  18:01, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Lead sentence. "Scales are important for snakes - they are deemed to be reptiles by the presence of scales, amongst other things." Remove the space before the inline citation.✅
 * 2) "...distinctive modification being the rattle of the North American rattlesnakes." Why is 'rattle' in bold?  Looks better with just the italicization.✅
 * 3) "The snake is protected from damage due to friction as it moves by the dorsal (or back) scales." Clarify - "moves by the dorsal scales," and fix inline spacing.✅
 * 4) "Snake skin and scales help retain moisture in the animal's body." Fix citation spacing.✅
 * 5) "Snake scales are formed from the epidermis." Are there any sources that explain what is meant by this?✅
 * 6) "The skin from the inner surface hinges back and forms a free area which overlaps the base of the next scale which emerges below this scale." Inline spacing.✅
 * 7) "These are not added to or lost as it matures." You mean this number is not added to, or the scales are not lost? Either way, there seem to be two subjects here, reword the sentence for clarity.✅
 * 8) "The scales however grow larger in size and may change shape with each moult." Inline spacing.✅
 * 9) "Snake scales are made of keratin, the same material that hair and fingernails are made of." Inline spacing.✅
 * 10) "Other more advanced snakes have special large symmetrical scales on the head called shields or plates." Inline spacing, I still think the bold text should be italicized instead.✅
 * 11) "Snake scales occur in variety of shapes. They may be :-" Remove dash.✅
 * 12) "cycloid as in Family Typhlopidae." Inline spacing.✅
 * 13) "long and pointed with pointed tips, as in the case of the Green Vine Snake Ahaetulla nasuta." Inline spacing.✅
 * 14) "broad and leaf-like, as in the case of green pit vipers Trimeresurus spp." Inline spacing.✅
 * 15) "as broad as they are long, for example, as in Rat snake Ptyas mucosus." Inline spacing.✅
 * 16) "keeled weakly or strongly as in the case of the Buff-striped keelback Amphiesma stolatum." Inline spacing.✅
 * 17) "with bidentate tips as in some spp of Natrix." Inline spacing.✅
 * 18) "spinelike, juxtaposed as in the Short Seasnake Lapemis curtus." Inline spacing.✅
 * 19) "large, non-overlapping knobs as in the case of the Javan Mudsnake Xenodermis javanicus." Inline spacing.✅
 * 20) "Another example of differentiation of snake scales is a transparent scale called the brille or spectacle which covers the eye of the snake." Bold text? Should be italicized.✅
 * 21) "The most distinctive modification of the snake scale is the rattle of Rattlesnakes," Bold text.✅
 * 22) "A baby rattlesnake is born with only a small button or 'primordial rattle' which is firmly attached to the tip of the tail.[11]." Remove extra period.✅
 * 23) "In the case of snakes, the complete outer layer of skin is shed in one layer." Inline spacing.✅
 * 24) "Renewal of the skin by moulting is supposed to allow growth in some animals such as insects, however this view has been disputed in the case of snakes." Inline spacing.✅
 * 25) "A new, larger, and brighter layer of skin has formed underneath." Inline spacing.✅
 * 26) "Snake have imbricate scales, overlapping like the tiles on a roof." Inline spacing.✅
 * 27) "Most snakes have an odd number of rows across the body though certain species have an even number of rows e.g. Zaocis spp." Inline spacing.✅
 * 28) "In the case of some aquatic and marine snakes, the scales are granular and the rows cannot be counted . " Remove space before period, inline spacing.✅
 * 29) "The majority of the largest family of snakes, the Colubridae have 15, 17 or 19 rows of scales." Inline spacing.✅
 * 30) Head scale section - bold text? If that's typical of a snake article, forget what I said.  I still think they would look better italicized, but just think about it.
 * 31) "Details of scales of Buff-striped Keelback have been taken from Daniels. [21]" Inline spacing.✅
 * 32) "...in combination with other morphological characteristics, are the principal means of classifying snakes down to species level. [22]" Inline Spacing.✅
 * 33) "...distinguish between relatively harmless Colubrids and lethally venomous Elapids[25]." Period before inline cite.✅
 * 34) "...indicates that the snake is an Elapid and hence lethal[25]." Period before inline.✅
 * 35) "...poisonous members of their family such as Rhabdopis species[25]." Repeat above.✅
 * 36) "A snake scale was portrayed as a clue in the 1982 sci-fi cum film noir called 'Blade Runner'. [33]" Inline spacing.✅
 * 37) "Snake scales also figure in popular fiction, such as the Harry Potter series (dessicated Boomslang skin is used as a raw material for concocting the Polyjuice potion), and also in teen fiction [34]." Period before cite.✅


 * Thanks for the detailed review. I have carried out the modifications necessary including a reference for the formation of scales from the skin.
 * I still beg to differ on the bolding. Here, I do not refer to MOS as an argument, but utility in the article. I created the annotated images first as a reference for my own field identification which sort of led me to think of writing on snake scales. When I wrote the text for the nomenclature of snake scales initially, I did not bold or italicise any scale names and soon lost my place while following the snake scales on the image as my attention switched from image to text or vice versa. Italics didnt make the word stand out as much as bolding. Hence I would prefer to stick to bolding from a practical point of view for users. I also would not like to compare this article to others, as very few of them would need such correlation and hence would follow normal MOS. A little bit odd look of the excessive (to you) bolding may be due to your being unused to it - you would be used to a different MOS or style. In India in the armed forces, we use the bolding where appropriate in our MOS so I dont find it unusual; so partly it may be an issue of being used to. That apart, I feel we should retain it solely for the reason that it makes it easier for the reader to follow and find while switching his attention from image to text and vice versa.

Regards,AshLin 21:21, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

GA Passed
I have passed this article according to the Good Article Criteria. Thanks for getting all those changes done so fast – excellent work. With regard to the bolding, that's fine with me. Be prepared to defend it if you ever take it to FA - there will be people like me who would think that the bolding is in excess. Make sure that the article maintains its high quality, and consider going to WP:AAR to get help to bring it to FA, if you so desire. Nice job taking it from here all the way to where it is now. If you have time, consider doing a review or two at GAC to reduce backlog. Again, very nice work! Cheers, Corvus   coronoides  21:34, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Overlap?
The article says that snakes scales overlap head to tail- surely the head scales don't? they appear to fit next to each other? IceDragon64 23:09, 1 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't believe the article makes such a claim, but if it did, I think that would depend on the species. Many snakes, such as colubrids and elapids, have enlarged head scales, or plates, that border each other, but, indeed, do not overlap. With others, such as vipers, these plates have largely fragmented into smaller scales that definitely overlap; e.g. Atheris (with image). --Jwinius 23:46, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Born?
There are several references to snakes being "born". Those from eggs are hatched, rather than born, and I'm not sure that "born" is appropriate even for those where the eggs hatch internally. Also "baby" snake grates. Isn't there some snake equivalent to "chick", or failing that, why not say "newly hatched? Jimfbleak 07:59, 27 August 2007 (UTC)


 * There is nothing wrong with using the term "born" in this context; it is used throughout the relevant literature to describe the event. Snakes either give birth or lay eggs. If the implication is that only placental mammals can be "born," that would definitely be incorrect. "Baby" or "babies" is not a term that authors seem to use too often to describe young snakes, but it is sometimes, and it is certainly not incorrect. For the ovoviviparous species, the terms "newborns" and "neonates" are more frequently applied, with "hatchlings" used for the oviparous species. "Young" can apply to both. Otherwise, there is no specific term for young snakes akin to "chick," "calf," "lamb" or "foal". --Jwinius 11:55, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Image
Another image that may be of help. Shyamal 11:40, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Reptile scales
This is a very impressive series of articles--would anybody knowledgable on this subject be able to put something (anything!) together on reptilian scales in general? Covering things like lizaards, crocs, bird feet, etc. At the moment this subject is limited to a single line on Scale (zoology) which lists this as the main article (incorrectly, as 'snake scales' is a bit too specific). Thanks! Dinoguy2 (talk) 17:14, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

To do list - dead links
Please see the dead links on this page. Need changing. AshLin (talk) 17:18, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Commencing GA reassessment per WP:SWEEPS
This article has just undergone a reassessment as part of the GA SWEEPS. Several substantial problems have been identified and must be fixed if the article is to keep its GA status, see the reassessment here. If the issues presented are not remedied within 7 days, the article will be delisted. If there are any comments or queries, please contact me. ✽ Juniper§ Liege  (TALK)  20:18, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the hard work, Ashlin; article passed. ✽ Juniper§ Liege   (TALK)  00:35, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Keeled scales merge?
I was just going through some old records, and the Keeled scales page popped out at me. Probably should be merged here, I think. Mokele (talk) 02:49, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Keeled scales are not restricted only to scales hence I recommend retaining status quo. AshLin (talk) 03:26, 25 September 2010 (UTC)