Talk:Sniper/Archive 3

Vandalism?
"What would Tom Berenger do?" Was this vandalism? Removed it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.157.161.44 (talk • contribs)


 * Yes, it was. Thank you for removing it. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—►  ((⊕)) 00:09, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Classified info in wikipedia?
On 6 June 2009 the IP 98.31.55.69 added info about U.S. Marine Corp's Master Gunnery Sergeant John J. Weltmer. | One of his edits changed country names to "[Classified]". Was that a stupid joke? Moreover I couldn't find any info about this Mr. Weltmer but my searching skills aren't well either. 94.223.86.26 (talk) 16:13, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Hathcock's Record
The three mentions of Hathcock's record each put it at a different distance (2347m, 2250m, and 2286m). His wiki page gives the 2286 figure, as do several other sources. Any idea how these discrepancies were introduced? The odd part is that the two incorrect figures in the article are the ones that reference sources which corroborate the 2286 figure, while the correct figure is unreferenced. (Steelerdon (talk) 16:46, 23 December 2009 (UTC))

Harrison's record
"120.95 m (4.762 in)"

Houston, we've got a problem with decimal places and conversion. 0.12095 meters = 4.762 in. 120.95 meters =~ 177 feet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.232.150.32 (talk) 23:21, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Terrorists?
One of the most famous snipers can be found on http://youtube.com/HDsweeneyHD I've never heard of snipers being called by the moniker of "terrorist." If this is so, we should have a citation for it. There's a real trend anymore with calling any form of combat that doesn't involve a face-to-face encounter "terrorism." Snipers do not qualify as terrorists. Unless someone can cite that, I'm taking it out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.171.16.87 (talk) 04:19, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Training
Perhaps a training section can be implemented. At present, snipers are usually trained at in the regular national army, and can then follow extra courses at England (Platton Weapons 3 Sniper Course, or America (Scout Sniper Advanced Course) afterwards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.246.171.164 (talk) 07:21, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Training isn't just done in America and the UK. You could do a whole article on Countries' sniper schools. -- Esemono (talk) 07:26, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Problem with lead
Hi, thanks for making the change that I suggested earlier, but please don't delete comments from a talk page, especially if you have that warning comment in the article itself. I think there is still a problem with the lede, where it says that a sniper is "usually a highly trained marksman..." A sniper may usually be a highly trained marksman, but he or she is always a highly skilled one. The difference between a sniper and a marksman may not be training in fieldcraft etc., but the fact that snipers kill people and marksmen not necessarily. Have a great day!Jarhed (talk) 07:10, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I just rethought that and I may be wrong. An unskilled marksman taking potshots from a covered position is still a sniper. Perhaps the distinction is that snipers shoot people, whereas a highly trained infantryman in a deer stand is just a hunter. In any case, the definition needs to be nailed down without the "usually".Jarhed (talk) 07:14, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Should the term "sharpshooter" be used in the lead, instead of "marksman"? I thought that "sharpshooter" denoted a higher skill level. In addition, it offers a gender-neutral way of introducing the topic. Otherwise, we should say "marksman or markswoman" or "marksperson," to account for the fact that many snipers historically have been women. Of course, "marksman or markswoman" is clumsy, and "marksperson" sounds strange as a term. Which is what "sharpshooter" might be preferable. Springfulutopia (talk) 17:16, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Snipers in history
Skirmishers are not snipers. They are light infantry, an entirely different thing. I believe the reference should be removed.JohnC (talk) 10:06, 21 July 2009 (UTC) I agree, but the Royal Greenjackets--the first British regiment equipped with rifles were both in the peninsular War'' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.93.214 (talk) 21:25, 27 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Agree that skirmishers are not snipers. In the ACW, snipers were referred to as "sharpshooters".  Skirmishers were entirely distinct (though sharpshooters, notably Berdan's Sharpshooters with the Army of the Potomac, were often used as skirmishers...) Well-Read Red (talk) 05:18, 8 May 2010 (UTC)Well-Read Red


 * Thank you Well-Read Red. I saw that comment about skirmishers being the term during the ACW and was asking where they got that from when even then it was the sharpshooters who were doing the sniping. - annonymous, 4/5/2011 10:42 PM EST —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.71.215.124 (talk) 02:43, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Nick Ranstad
In the Sniper section there is this:
 * United States Army Spc. Nick Ranstad while deployed to Nuristan Province, Afghanistan with the 173rd Airborne, 1-91st Airborne Cavalry "Hatchet" Recon Platoon took out a Taliban target that he and his spotter had been stalking from 2,100 m (2,297 yd). Ranstad's shot is now confirmed as a US Army record for a sniper kill in Afghanistan.[67]  Ranstad then provided suppressive fire until air support could move in to eliminate a second target.

But its sourced to a little paper (2000 circulation) the Battle Lake Review Tamke, Jon A. (29 July 2008) "Servicemen" Battle Lake Review (Battle Lake, MN). Doing a google search just brings up forums who have copied the Wikipedia article. Although I did find this. Anyone have anymore info on this guy? You'd thing breaking the American distance record would account for a little more press. -- Esemono (talk) 07:06, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Alvin York

Although he wasn't a "Sniper" by trade. He did have to pick off several targets and captured over 100 soldiers with the aid of seven men. He took out 28 men with both M1911 pistol and his M1917 Enfield Rifle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.43.49.224 (talk) 03:20, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Was this writen by a British person?
I mean come on the "notable individual" section where Patrick Ferguson COULD HAVE shot George washington as tho this should be notable as to any gaurd of washington just thinking of killing him would be admitted LoL Yet American Timothy Murphy actually shot and killed British generals like a duck in a barrel should be noted better and mopre on an American play on sniping since it truly with guns originated from American during the revolutionary war. ChesterTheWorm (talk) 23:33, 23 May 2010 (UTC) ChesterTheWorm

Pictures
Man, look at all those photos of United States snipers littering the page. You'd think the subject is exclusively American or something... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.57.78.255 (talk) 04:05, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * yes, I will update said photo's to include the current longest kill holder and a few others. Twobells (talk) 08:30, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Sniper masks in WW I?
I just recently saw an episode of Boardwalk Empire showing a German sniper mask made out of steel. Information on this seems to be hard to find in general. Has anyone details on this aspect of historical sniping?--79.230.13.139 (talk) 12:09, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes. I have the The German Sniper, 1914-1945 by Peter Senich which has photos and drawings of various masks/face-coverings, hides, metal shields etc. Its heavily illustrated and also includes a good section on Soviet snipers. Here is a photo of a German steel mask. Here is a British sniper's version. Take a look at this page showing some. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—►  ((⊕)) 14:13, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Sniper#Longest_recorded_sniper_kills
User:Francis Flinch, Why did you just essentially revert my contribution, but tried to make it like you didn't? Instead of editing you just copied in exactly your old paragraphs one by one, in three edits, with no reasoning. Are my data wrong? Are my wording inferior?

Calculation-wise, QTU Lapua, as offered by Lapua themselves, uses the more accurate model when Lapua bullets are used. You can load the drag curve for the specific bullet, as measured by doppler in real life, instead of approximating using BCs on the G1 model and a bunch of velocity thresholds.

I also took the care of pulling up the climate history for the region (closest station with records being Kandahar) for the 11/2009 month to take a closer average, including averaging barometric pressure and humidity by hand, to provide the "30.1 inHg (102 kPa), humidity: 25.9%, and temperature: 15 °C (59 °F)", instead of simply using ICAO. The pressures are significantly different.

Wording-wise, this isn't external ballistics, it's a public consumption article. There is no reason to "illustrate how environmental condition differences can significantly affect bullet flight", and even if you did it makes no sense to simply offer a comparison between sea-level and 1,043 m. Why would that be particular relevant to this record?

This is why I offered the most basic information first that would be interesting to the general reader: travel time, drop (in distance and in degrees instead of MOA, any ballistics enthusiast can multiply by 60, but the general reader doesn't know to divide by 60), and possible wind offset, because it illustrates the distance and also ties in with the next part of the article. I left all the other numbers used to arrive at those in the back, instead of scattering them everywhere.

-- Znode (talk) 20:40, 26 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I checked the numbers and it did turn out that I forgot to compensate for on-site barometric pressure from weather stations' sea-level-equivalent. 101930.29887 * ((1 - (2.25577 * (10^(-5)) * 1043))^5.25588) = 89940.8865 Pa on location, and moist-air ρ is back to 1.0854 kg/m3 (1.0821 air, 0.0033 H2O) which is much closer to your value of 1.069 kg/m3. My original value of 1.2336 definitely didn't make any sense since it was higher than sea-level. Travel time is back to 6.0 sec (well, 5.957) If that was the reason you reverted, I apologize. -- Znode (talk) 21:46, 26 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Refer to Talk:Sniper/Musa_Qala_calculation -- Znode (talk) 22:07, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Dubious photo inclusion: Marksman in Afghanistan.jpg
Why is considered a "Sniper"? Everything illustrated goes against the definition provided by the article.

In fact, that photo and are a perfect comparison between sniper activity (the later) and regular troop activity. Stay across the room from the window to conceal the muzzle flash, use an actual distance weapon, etc.

74.83.16.252 (talk) 14:10, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Very much agreed. Looks like somebody on a PRT "loosened the standards," and suddenly everybody's dressing up like secret squirrels. He's got an M-4 with what looks like a deer scope he bought back home, a 20-rd mag he only uses for photo ops, and a do-rag to make people think he's some kind of operator. Hell, he's not even a DM. Look at the fact that he's standing in the middle of the fucking windows, using the hand-brace every boot learns in OSUT. Take this shit down. This is not representative of snipers.

Sniping - the facebook version.
Sniping is the act of 'firing' off a comment into other peoples fb conversations. Invented by Dave Cowell in 2011, it has become the latest online craze. The object of the game is to be the first to 'snipe' a post by commenting with only the word snipe. It is also considered a bonus if you get multiple snipes at the same time on one of your own posts. It was one of the early events that led to Dave Cowell becoming a household name around the world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.169.234.240 (talk) 12:51, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Operating in Pairs, WWI
"Both British and German sniper teams operated in pairs, with one sniper and one spotter." Pegler (Osprey, 2004) claims that the German snipers only operated as individuals during this conflict.

1st reference
The first reference to snipers is the Boer-War. But in the 18th century the German army trained individual soldiers, which were recruited from hunter´s or ranger´s familys, into "Schützenbattalione". Great Britain even used them as mercenarys (even equipped with a special rifle for sniping) in the American-Revolutionary-War against the settlers. The experience they gained with the German mercenarys led to the establishment of the first Britsh school to train marksmanship over long ranges.--62.154.195.115 (talk) 12:15, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

What about Simo Häyhä
Why there isn't anything about Simo Häyhä? If you know anything about snipers, you must know Simo Häyhä "White Death"  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keessar (talk • contribs) 17:59, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree that there should be something about this man. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fitzroysq (talk • contribs) 23:09, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Unknown mystery snipers?
We should have an article on "mystery snipers" or "unknown snipers." Real or not, reports and evidence of mystery snipers emerge in connection to political unrest. One of the first incidents was Bloody Sunday (1972) or Mexico City 1968. Rooftop snipers were reported in Bucharest in 1989. There is hard evidence of snipers in Thailand in 2010. The most recent incarnation is in Syria in 2011. These mystery gunmen hiding on rooftops seem to be equally targeting protesters and security forces. Usually the snipers are said to be government security forces targeting protesters with the aim of suppressing opposition. The end result is always the opposite with an escalation in violence and insurgency.

An emerging conspiracy theory claims that these sniper incidents are somehow related – or at least they follow a common strategy of destabilization with an aim of achieving "regime change." Here are some sources [] that may or may not meet the RS requirements for conspiracy theories. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:22, 1 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Some more mystery snipers; a quote from BBC:

"The security forces are trying to open shops and markets closed by the strike. They were using loudspeakers to order children and teachers to go back to school. This was while there were rooftop snipers shooting anything that moved."

- BBC


 * -- Petri Krohn (talk) 22:01, 12 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Are these persons labeled 'mystery snipers' based on the media? I would think that the media would not be considered a reliable source for defining a 'sniper' as they would have easily called someone with a rifle a 'sniper' in order to drum interest in a story. User:Aneah  13:04, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

The FBI evidently has information of snipers planning to shoot protesters and protest leaders. Primary source: "███████████████████ planned to gather intelligence against the leaders of the protest groups and obtain photographs, then formulate a plan to kill the leadership via suppressed sniper rifles."

- p. 69

"of the Occupy Movement by ████████████████████████ interested in developing a long--term plan to kill local Occupy leaders via sniper fire."

- p. 69

The reliable source: -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:11, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Found one more case: Tlatelolco massacre, Mexico 1968:
 * While at the time, government propaganda and the mainstream media in Mexico claimed that government forces had been provoked by protesters shooting at them, government documents that have been made public since 2000 suggest that the snipers had in fact been employed by the government.

-- Petri Krohn (talk) 04:01, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Poorly Written
Anyone notice that this article is written in both British and American English? Anyways, the part under 21st Century regarding Chris Kyle is poorly formatted/written. As such, it should be revised accordingly and the erroneous citation should be fixed. Finally, Its probably just pet peeve of mine, but 90% of the 20th & 21st century are formatted with hyphens, whereas the rest are written as functioning sentences. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Troybert (talk • contribs) 12:26, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Surkov
Hi all,

Please take a look at Mihail Ilyich Surkov - I know nothing about this subject, but this seems to be a notable sniper, even if his kill count was inflated: even that would be a cause for notability. --Slashme (talk) 17:12, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Deletion discussion
Hi all,

Please check out Articles_for_deletion/Mihail_Ilyich_Surkov. --Slashme (talk) 08:52, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Removing Beltway snipers from Notable Individuals
The list of Notable Individuals is composed almost entirely of military personnel in the service of their country. The last entry in the list is about the Beltway snipers. They were murders and do not fit the military service profile of the other individuals in the list. I would like to change that section to be titled Notable Military Snipers and remove the reference to the Beltway snipers. Any thoughts? --Mikebrand (talk) 02:13, 10 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The section can be split in 2: military and non military snipers. Or if there is a page related to non-military snipers can be moved there (cannot find such a page so far). Nodar95 (talk) 23:07, 10 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Since the current Sniper page talks almost exclusively about military snipers it could be of interest to re-organize it to add information to non military snipers. After all a sniper is someone capable of using high-precision rifles and optics, and thus encompasses a larger population than soldiers. For example SWAT and other special police forces use snipers. And I am sure the Beltway snipers is not the only example of civilian snipers. Alternatively, if there is enough content additional articles could be created to cover each of those specific snipers, while renaming the original article appropriately, for example "sniper (military)".Nodar95 (talk) 22:10, 11 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The media did label them the Beltway Snipers, but I don't think they really qualify as snipers. The victims were 50 to 100 yards away.  Those kills would not be considered notable sniper kills in a military setting.  The only reason they are notable is that they terrorized civilians.  I don't think they deserve to be listed on a page of snipers.  They would more appropriately listed on a page of serial killers.  If the kills were at long range, then I would grant that they could be listed on the page as non-miliatary snipers.--Mikebrand (talk) 00:40, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I retract that last sentence from my previous post. The entire article is about the professional role of military snipers.  Just because a serial killer uses a rifle does not make him a sniper in the sense the article describes.  I am removing the non-military spiner section.--Mikebrand (talk) 04:29, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the removal of the mention of the Beltway "Snipers" from the article, but back to the base question: why should law-enforcement snipers be excluded? There's certainly something to be said about that niche profession, as well as some notoriety of individuals (e.g. Lon Horiuchi). Mark Shaw (talk) 15:06, 12 July 2012 (UTC)


 * What about renaming the article "military snipers" as it is only what it covers?Nodar95 (talk) 18:24, 12 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Personally I think it would be better to have a section on non-military snipers in this article. Less fragmented.... Mark Shaw (talk) 19:42, 12 July 2012 (UTC)


 * This was the point of the Beltway snipers. So if the article lists non military snipers, the definition of sniper needs to include a minimum distance, not only the use of high-precision rifles and optics as the article currently states. This will have to be something between 100 (to disqualify the Beltway snipers) and 300 meters (lower limit of maximal range for 5.56x45mm NATO (.223 Remington) cartridge). But will also need some reference to justify that distance definition.
 * In general as good as this article sounds try to imagine being a curious reader that wants to learn more about snipers in history, of all kinds. There is currently not such an article on wikipedia, only this article that limits itself to military snipers. There are articles about specific people or situations (Beltway snipers, Lon Horiuchi, police forces, etc...) but you have to know what you are looking for, and none of those are accessible from the only sniper article on en.wikipedia. Nodar95 (talk) 20:36, 12 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure minimum distance is really a necessary or useful criterion, since various factors (terrain, etc.) may make any chosen minimum distance more or less significant. For example, more open terrain and a lack of cover would mean longer distances; urban environments and clutter/confusion would imply that even short distances - on the order of 40 meters or so - might be reasonably considered sniper shots. The elements of stealth and surprise are probably more important.


 * My suggestion is to limit the article to a treatment of legitimate military and law-enforcement snipers and tactics (even though possibly controversial, e.g. Horiuchi) and leave criminals (e.g. Whitman, Oswald) out of it, and not worry so much about distances as much as other factors. Mark Shaw (talk) 21:16, 12 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The issue of Oswald raises an interesting point. Unlike the Beltway "snipers", Oswald was apparrently a skilled marksman who employed the skills described in the article.  The primary aspect that separates Oswald from the legitimate snipers described in the article is that he opperated outside the law, while the article describes snipers who are legitimately employeed by the government as professionals.  Now I'm wondering if the article would benefit from a small section that separates out murders that employe the tactics of a sniper.  Oswald would fit into that category.  Just as the current Police section describes what differentiates law enforcement sharp shooters from snipers, the section could differentiate legitimate snipers from murders using sniper tactics.  I am not personally inclined to write that section, but I would not be opposed to such a section.--Mikebrand (talk) 02:21, 13 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree that Oswald should be included. He achieved a very high standard of marksmanship, shooting JKF in the head while he was in a moving vehicle and placing two out of three shots on-target. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newzild (talk • contribs) 23:41, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Mental
There should be more about the mental aspecets of a sniper, the so called "personal" level that sniping requires. i'm not a expert myself, but it seems to be a important part of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.68.14.50 (talk) 05:22, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Lead
This article has many problems, and they start with the intro:
 * A sniper is a highly trained marksman...
 * Probably, but "highly skilled" is probably a better description. Many historical snipers would have been hand-picked for their shooting and field-craft skill and received little specialist training. Yet, one can be a sniper without be trained or skilled.


 * ...who operates in one- to two-man teams...
 * A "one man team"? Surely something like "either alone, or as part of a two man team"


 * ...which maintain close visual contact with the enemy...
 * Does this need to be said? Hard to shoot them if you can't see them...


 * ...engages targets from concealed positions or physical distances exceeding the detection capabilities of the enemy personnel, without being detected.
 * Clumsy wording, but otherwise OK


 * These sniper teams operate independently, with little combat asset support from their parent units. 
 * Fair enough, but probably better to phrase it in terms of the support that they provide to their unit


 * Snipers typically have highly selective and specialized training... 
 * Needs a "in modern advanced armies" or some such wording


 * ...use high-precision rifles and optics... 
 * The key is the contrast with the standard issue. So, something like "rifles of better quality, with better sights or optics, range, accuracy or hitting power than the standard issue infantry weapons" - given that they've historically often used pretty standard gear, just specially selected and with better sights.


 * ...often have sophisticated communication assets to feed valuable combat information back to their units.
 * Something like "additionally, they are often used as scouts or spotters, feeding valuable combat information back to their units


 * In addition to marksmanship, military snipers are trained in camouflage, field craft, infiltration, reconnaissance and observation.[1]
 * Needs a a "typically" inserted


 * Snipers are especially effective when deployed within the terrain of urban warfare, or jungle warfare.
 * Really? Seems to be plenty of evidence of them in many other situations.

Clearly this article gets a lot of input from people who know about current US military sniping, but the article covers wider territory than that, and the intro needs to reflect that.

Sniper teams
Per a request from 2013, I merged the short, unsourced Sniper team article into this one. I have no objection to splitting it out again, since this is a long article, but it should only be done after sources are added. Rezin (talk) 20:29, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Also - there's some specific (and sourced!) material in Sniper about sniper teams. It'd be great if someone who knows more about the topic could integrate it into the 'teams' section, or whatever, to reduce redundancy. Rezin (talk) 20:38, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Maritime role for snipers
This article seems to lack any mention of snipers used in maritime operations. The sort of thing done by snipers in specialist marine units and naval special forces, such as how the Maersk Alabama hijacking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maersk_Alabama_hijacking was ended. Will someone add a section about this or, expand a current section to cover this? Dreddmoto (talk) 15:10, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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New NEWS today, for future editing
A map is included in this interesting article. It is very timely to current situations. Headline-1: Is a secret sniper killing off Isil's high command in Libya? QUOTE: "Mystery gunman credited with shooting three of the terror group's leaders in their new "Caliphate" in Colonel Gaddafi's home city of Sirte" -- AstroU (talk) 23:20, 29 January 2016 (UTC) -- PS: FYI for future editing.
 * http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/12129837/Is-a-secret-sniper-killing-off-Isils-high-command-in-Libya.html

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Duplication
I added a further info link linking to the List of snipers article. Wondering if this is all we need in that section titled 'Notable military marksmen and snipers'. Londonclanger (talk) 23:08, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

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Military history (first snipers)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

The real first Sniper was the Hessian Hunters from 1631 (Hunter in german = Jäger)

Look here: Jäger (infantry)

In german is better with more detailed information:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A4ger_(Milit%C3%A4r)

Origin from this Book: http://www.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/hessenjger16fc3nz1b7ov.jpg

Is a old picture. I think picture is without copyright. http://www.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/hessenjger16kc3o07pxjt.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mike Ax (talk • contribs) 16:41, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

My german Wiki user side: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Mike_Ax  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mike Ax (talk • contribs) 22:31, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Hidden note
There is a hidden note in the lead that says "PLEASE DO NOT MAKE ANY CHANGES TO THE DEFINITION OF 'SNIPER' UNLESS THERE HAS BEEN A CONSENSUS FORMED IN THE DISCUSSION PAGE". Could someone please indicate the Wikipedia policy or guideline which requires talk page discussion before editing a regular article. I mean, yes, you need talk page consensus to edit a WP policy page. But this is a regular article. WP:BOLD, an editing guideline, encourages editors to update and correct articles. <span style="text-shadow:4px 4px 15px #00F,-4px -4px 15px #49F;">OnBeyondZebrax • <span style="text-shadow:4px 4px 15px #F80,-4px -4px 15px #F08;">TALK 00:04, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
 * WP:MOS says "Inappropriate uses for hidden text" include "Telling others not to perform certain edits to a page, unless there is an existing guideline or policy against that edit". The Manual of Style says that "When it is a mere local consensus that a certain edit should not be performed, the hidden text should be worded more softly to suggest to the editor to consult the talk page (or archive page if appropriate) for the current consensus prior to making the edit. Since consensus can change, it is inappropriate to use hidden text to try to prohibit making a certain edit merely because it would conflict with an existing consensus." <span style="text-shadow:4px 4px 15px #00F,-4px -4px 15px #49F;">OnBeyondZebrax • <span style="text-shadow:4px 4px 15px #F80,-4px -4px 15px #F08;">TALK 00:11, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Let's discuss the definition
My interest was piqued by the comments above, so I had a look at the opening para - "the definition". I must say that there's quite a bit to argue with imho, for example:


 * A sniper is a marksman... - yup


 * ...or qualified specialist... - what does this add?


 * ...who operates alone, in a pair, or with a sniper team to maintain close visual contact with the enemy and shoot enemies from concealed positions or distances exceeding the detection capabilities of enemy personnel. - fine


 * Snipers typically have highly-selective or specialized training... - hmm, often have specialized training should do it


 * ...and use crew-served... - dumb; even if the US military technically call them that


 * ...high-precision/special application rifles and optics - can we drop special application please?


 * ...and often have sophisticated communication assets to feed important combat information back to their units or military bases. - have sophisticated communication assets to should go

Remember that this definition needs to cover all from whatever period, and force - not just the current US military. So, my suggested text would be:


 * A sniper is a marksman who operates alone, in a pair, or with a sniper team, to maintain close visual contact with the enemy and shoot enemies from concealed positions or distances exceeding the detection capabilities of enemy personnel. They often have specialized training and use high-precision rifles and optics, and often feed information back to their units or military bases.

Anyone object - or can do better? - Snori (talk) 09:20, 16 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Now done. Have also trimmed out the second para of the intro - the majority of that was already covered better by what's left. Snori (talk) 08:52, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

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The "Snipe" in "Sniper" isn't the real bird
I'm pretty sure the first sentence of the etymology for this term is incorrect. British imperials didn't go around shooting at plovers. The snipe referred to in "sniper" is the snipe from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snipe_hunt, and the shooter is said to be so accurate he can hit the fictitious bird. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.227.21 (talk) 14:03, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

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