Talk:Soap Box Derby

Article history is weird
The history of this article exhibits suspicious behavior. In particular, the following paragraph seems to have been inserted and removed repeatedly:"Keep in mind the World Championships held in Akron, Ohio are ran on a "first to the finish line wins" meaning that it is a wheel race and is usually fixed so the local favorite wins the race. The National Derby Rallies is a rotating wheel swap race and is considered the "real race" which yeilds the fastest car and driver. NDR is considered the fair race." Quite aside from the various problems with this paragraph (no sources cited for what would obviously be a potentially controversial statement; use of the second-person imperative; various grammatical issues; no attempt to explain the difference between a wheel race and a rotating wheel swap race; no link to any article on the NDR, nor any information about where that race is held), its insertion has been marked as a "minor edit". Please don't mark edits as "minor" when they introduce (or re-introduce) entire paragraphs; the "minor edit" checkbox is intended for stuff like adding or removing a punctuation mark or fixing a misspelled word. I noticed this because I was considering commenting on this talk page regarding the various issues (chiefly in terms of the lack of cited sources) with that paragraph, but when I revisited the article to pick up a copy of the paragraph for quoting, it was gone. Then I looked at the history. Apart from that, if the material in the above paragraph were to be re-added, it ought to be accompanied by a citation or reference, an explanation of the difference between the two types of races and what implications this has for fixing, and better NPOV wording (e.g., with a statement like "NDR is considered the fair race" there should be a qualifier indicating who considers it to be so). -- Jonadab 13:17, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Biased removal of content?
I just reverted the two anonymous, edit-summary-less content-deletions by 68.117.193.232, (who's only two edits are these removals of paragraphs from this article). The content-removal may have been justified, though I don't see how. The only vein of similarity between these specific paragraphs is that they are all critical of, or speak to the decline in popularity of, soap box derbies. I undid the removal as the edit served to push the article away from a NPOV. &mdash;Joel D. Reid (talk) 04:32, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Scandals
I suggested to contributors to cite references to these instances, the last having been written in a rather non-encyclopedic style. -- Bill Wrigley, 01:09, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Added insert about my pics and explained what had been written
These are my pictures used on this site. The girl with the white and blue car is my sister Daralyn Fitzgerald. I read the insert and it is correct. There are 2 forms of derby racing All American and NDR. NDR was formed in 1977 because the All American race was not fair. It has been going every since. Its usually the week after Akron and contestants compete in both organizations. The other pics are of the disqualified 1973 magnet car of James Gronen. For more references checkout www.zero-error.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.151.140.233 (talk) 19:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

German Soap Box Derbies?
There are several links and a photo for the German counterpart but nothing actually in the page. Perhaps the person who added them would like to explain the significance? Ando228 (talk) 18:55, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by TXDERBY (talk • contribs) 00:49, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Ultimate Speed Challenge
http://cmubuggy.org/gallery/Ultimate-Speed/separated-at-birth-2010
 * Message posted to taunt other team


 * “John Wargo, from California, put together the 2006 Ultimate Speed Challenge winning team with driver Jenny Rodway.” (Factually Zero Error racing)


 * “working with wheel expert Duane Delaney and driver” This text is not used in any official publication. It is a taunt since I am was the team’s captain. My name is in the official literature but omitted by intent on this site.


 * “Wheel expert Duane Delaney” another intentional insult (not comments above)


 * Selected car in picture is from the taunting team.


 * Official method of tracking fastest time (not the method in the chart used to mislead actual results). http://cmubuggy.org/gallery/Ultimate-Speed/lowest-ETs

Facts:
 * Only the one fastest heat per each championship event is recognized.


 * The car with the fastest time does not always win the race.


 * Fastest times can vary significantly year to year. This is due to changes in track surface, track temperature at the times of each heat, and the height and location of the starting ramp.

Track Surface and Temperature: In 1999 in the day in 2010 and 2011 on a significantly smother surface (2011 track was hotter and smother than 2010)
 * Track was just repaved and it was relatively cold and rainy during her fastest heat
 * 1999 fastest heat was run earlier in the day then the hotter heats other teams ran later

Height and location of the AASBD starting ramp: Each year the AASBD recalibrates lanes to offset track changes that have occurred since the past race (if the track never changed this would not be necessary each year). When all three lanes are raised (even slightly) together during calibration, the times can significantly drop. While AASBD paradigm shift in derby speed have been rare, changes in ramp height have not (i.e. all significant changes in times year to year cannot be attributed to race car advancements). In fact, times that are significantly slower due to the reasons noted above (cars typically do not get slower).

Point 1: There has been years, even with the older much slower derby cars area, where times are lower than all current USC records. In fact, in 1940 the Akron local had cars in the 25-second range. In previous years with times faster than all modern USC teams, almost every car entered had a faster time than all AASBD current USC records. By ignoring other variables accounting for speed recent USC 2010 and 2011 team times are in the hundreds in order of success. Therefore, only this posting ignores USC times all run at later times of the day (all hotter) and on a much smother track surface (with the ramp possibly higher in the back).

Point 2: Significant ramp changes during that two-year period. There should be no pleasure in unfairly diminishing a competitor’s success.

Point 3: Claiming success on the hottest USC day on the fastest USC track is like the rooster than believes that it brings the sun up each morning by crowing.

Point 4: CMU method of tracking fastest time’s methods is not used by the AASBD due to differences in events (but used here to mislead actual results).

Summary: Falsely and misleadingly diminished the success of all other past USC willing teams and the sport.

Reply to Ultimate Speed Challenge thread
TXDERBY, it is clear that you recognize the AASBD.org "history of the USC" publication that is referenced in the article that you keep deleting. You point out that you name is in the reference but not in the wiki article and you point out the D Delaney is in the article but not in the reference. If you recognizes the AAUSC history reference, then deleting the article content is nothing more than base vandalism. One may not like the way history has gone, but that does not give one the license to vandalize.

You do make one valid point. I have not supplied a reference for Mr Delaney's inclusion in the article. While we both know that it is true that he was involved n the race as a member of Zero error racing from 2008 to 2009 and as a member fo CSSN from 2010 unntil today, and that he is a wheel expert, I have not provided a reference to that fact. Thus, I have removed all mention of him from the article.

Also, feel free to add your own name to the article in reference to 2009. That is the point of Wikipedia. That would be a constructive edit, vs. vandalism caused by deleting entire sections. As the rest of the article is referenced to a source you recognize, please stop deleting it.

I see no taunts in the posted content. The winners, the teams, the records, the times are all referenced to AASBD.org or other external links. For example, the official history sites John Wargo as being the crew chief of the winning team in 2006. You have not provided any data or reference to refute this. You argument seems to be with the external source that we both agree exists and I have referenced. I suggest you contact AASBD.org and have them 'fix' their error and desist with your vandalism. Additionally, if the AASBD.org is not convinced to recognnize a different team leader, you could provide a reference some other source that proves that John Wargo was not the winning team leader or record in 2006.

As for the 'CMU" reference posted to taunt other teams. There is no taunting there. The reference supports the statement that there is overlap in technology between the two events. It also is not clear who would be taunted by this statement. The reference links to photos of vehicles from both events showing the same or similar wheels in use in both events over the past 4+ seasons.

As for the selected car photo, that is the car that won the most recent race (2011) and holds the current track record 26.585. I had also posted the prior photo of the 2010 top 3 finishers that was referenced in a previous edit of the article. I replaced it with this one as it is is more current and all 3 of the cars in the 2010 photo were either not involved in 2011 or had undergone significant revision prior to the race. I believe anyone rational would agree that the fastest car ever to have run the race is central to the topic. Feel free to post other photos, the more the merrier.

The things you have stated as 'facts' are not supported by any references. As the data I have posted here is direct from the official AAASBD.org website, I suggest that your 'facts' are a combination of irrelevant, unsupported, and incorrect. The governing body of the race has clearly recognized multiple record setters within the same year on more than one occasion. This is not my 'spin' on the facts. This is not a misrepresentation of the facts. This is what actually happened and what is documented in their published history.

on your numbered points:


 * 1) 1 I referenced the org that runs the race, the AASBD.org. They describe the results as I have described the results. You provide no alternative reference. While there were faster times from other starting locations (higher up the hill) for different races, run with different rules at the Akron track in the past, they are not part of the Ultimate speed history. Those cars were not in the AA USC race and the AA USC race was not run from those faster locations. I have made no statements about results or history outside of the scope of the AA USC race and have included as complete a history of the data as can be referenced. It is an inclusive approach that recognizes every winner, several top finishers, and every record setter for the AA USC race. Your discussion of non USC races from different years, conducted under different rules (fastest times does not always win which is not the case with the AAUSC race) and has no bearing on the topic of the AA UCS race. You may wish to contribute to the other sections on this page with this information.


 * 1) 2 Who's success is being diminished? These are statements of facts (team members, winners, top finishers, record setters, and record setters who also won). It is not clear how being listed as one of those things is diminishing. It is recognition of success.


 * 1) 3 I do not understand what roosters have to do with this entry. Please provide a reference. As an aside, I will note that you and the rest of the zero error team celebrated your victory and record in 2009 with tweets, buttons, banners, and internet posts. You also made a stink in 2010 with accusations of cheating when you finished 2nd. The winners in 2010 and 2011 avoided buttons, banners, and tweets and had the grace to accept their 3rd place finish in 2009 without accusations of cheating.


 * 1) 4 I have made no reference to a "CMU method". I have quoted the organization that runs the race being discussed.

///end of comments

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mark c estes (talk • contribs) 02:39, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Scandal - Colorado
The section on the scandal, includes the following: "Colorado was also banned from any future participation in the All-American Soap Box Derby." Does that mean that no one from the state of Colorado may ever, even today, compete in the derby -- just because of one family's two (one proven) cheating? If so, that makes NCAA, MLB, NBA and NFL sanctions look like prizes. 211.225.33.104 (talk) 00:01, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

"Boulder, Colorado" is (was?) the name of this specific, banned car. 176.0.108.245 (talk) 22:27, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

FIRST BLACK Soap Box DERBY WINNER IN JOHNSON CITY TENNESSEE
In Johnson City Tennessee in 1968 -1970 Joe M. Taylor winner in Johnson City went to Akron,Ohio. Upon return an after years their are no mention of this race. Why — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.115.135.24 (talk) 06:45, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Racer Cost Limit
When I built my four racers in the 1950s, I couldn't spend more than $15.00 on parts. I had to buy a set of soap box derby wheels for an additional $25. This put derby racing in reach of just about any ten year old boy who wanted to build a racer. Now, entrants apparently must buy a whole kit and put it together, for around $400 -- and they can spend a lot more money to finish that kit. This removes the educational value and just plain fun of building a racer, from practically every 10 year old child who wants to compete.

We should add a Section that traces these cost limits, how these rules changed over time, why they changed, and the associated rules changes that made cost changes necessary.

When were girls and afroAmerican children allowed to enter?
Only boys were allowed to compete in the Soap Box Derby up through the middle 60s. We should add a Section that traces who was eligible and who was not eligible to compete, and why those eligibility rules were modified. We should state the specific year that girls were allowed to enter and the specific year that black children were allowed to enter. we should also trace changes in the financial backing each entrant could receive, and from whom. For example, fifty years ago, a boy could request a local business to pay just enough to advertise on his car, to cover the ($40) cost of building that car.

We should add a short Section discussing whether (and when) the Soap Box Derby has ever allowed organizations like the Boys' Club or the Scouts to sponsor (or assist) children who wanted to build their racers together with some limited supervision -- especially children without support from their families or from local small businesses. All of this is frankly more important than naming the winner of the Akron race on a specific year.