Talk:Social determinants of health/Archive 1

Refereed
Refereed scholarly articles are not unreliable sources. Wikipedia on the other hand is.


 * This article is starting to smell like it is the summary of your research papers. That is not what Wikipedia is for.  http://en.Wikibooks.org or http://en.wikisource.org or http://en.wikiversity.org may be a more appropriate target of your efforts. Deet (talk) 02:59, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm new to wikipedia and I'm not sure how to include this, but a great introduction to the Social Determinants of Health is the WHO Europe pdf the Solidfacts. It's very accessible and outlines what is know so far academically with reference to key articles and policy implications. www.euro.who.int/document/e81384.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by TakverRemedios (talk • contribs) 21:59, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Welfare state more satisfying?
The article claims that the welfare state is more "satisfying" for its citizens. This appears biased; it certainly would not be true for those satisfied by economic competition (as seen on Wall Street). Allens (talk) 13:47, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

EVIDENCE SHOWS THIS. DO NOT LIKE IT? TOUGH LUCK! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dennisraphael (talk • contribs) 20:36, 1 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I suggest: first, not "shouting"; second, bringing forward your evidence (from reliable sources) that a welfare state is more satisfying for everyone; third, signing your posts. Allens (talk) 00:27, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

It's pretty clear that this article is advocating the viewpoint that all (economic) inequality is a bad thing - inequality for any reason, even if equality of opportunity is present. This is inappropriate for a Wikipedia article. Allens (talk) 18:35, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * ARE YOU COMING FROM THIS PLANET? INEQUALITY IS BAD FOR HEALTH IS A CONCLSUION REACHED BY THE ACADEMIC COMMUNITY/ DONT LIKE IT? TOUGH.


 * First, I am, as it happens, a member of said academic community. Second, even if it were bad for everyone's health, it is still not appropriate for a Wikipedia article to claim that it's a bad thing; this is a value judgement and fails NPOV. Third, while I have no disagreement with the claim that those in lower classes have worse health in economically unequal areas, I dispute it for high-income classes, and have yet to see evidence otherwise. (And, no, I don't consider the average middle-class person to be in a high-income class.) Allens (talk) 00:32, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Inequalities in Health
A suggestion: The sub-section on "Inequalities among Canadians" may fit better on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_equity under "Health Inequalities" along with the material on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inequality_in_disease as suggested in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Inequality_in_disease Haejelee (talk) 11:56, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I moved the sub-section from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_determinants_of_health to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_equity. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Health_equity# because it seems more logical to follow health inequalities. I'm not sure how to fix the references. Haejelee (talk) 15:19, 19 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I'll take a look at the references and try to sort them out. Allens (talk &#124; contribs) 01:59, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

The term "unfair"
I have never see any source so "concerned" with not simply providing the WHO's quote without need to clarify. Your interpretation is just yours, and is inappropriate. Unfair is just that, the rich get richer and the poor suffer bad health. This is not rocket science. I will be changing the quotation back to what it is, a quotation, without YOUR interpretation in an hour or so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.231.152.141 (talk) 12:59, 21 March 2012 (UTC) The term "unfair" is rather obviously a value judgement; exactly what the commission in question (not the WHO, BTW) meant by this is plain from the entire quote: "[From page 2 of the full report] The poor health of the poor, the social gradient in health within countries, and the marked health inequities between countries are caused by the unequal distribution of power, income, goods, and services, globally and nationally, the consequent unfairness in the immediate, visible circumstances of peoples lives – their access to health care, schools, and education, their conditions of work and leisure, their homes, communities, towns, or cities – and their chances of leading a ﬂourishing life. This unequal distribution of health-damaging experiences is not in any sense a ‘natural’ phenomenon but is the result of a toxic combination of poor social policies and programmes, unfair economic arrangements, and bad politics." In other words, in this case, "unequal distribution" is said to be equivalent to "unfairness". Exactly what is the objection to making this clear to the reader without requiring them to read the entire quote? And whatever someone may allege the "academic community" regards as "unfair" (since the academic community also includes people of more conservative economic viewpoints, I rather doubt this) is irrelevant; what matters is communicating factual information to the reader. Allens (talk &#124; contribs) 01:58, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Breaking it down
I think this page can be eventually broken down into various pages. I wonder if it should focus on just the basics of the SDOH, and give examples, and remove/reduce the theoretical sections? BoomerAB (talk) 03:01, 29 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Could include specific condition. Have started a page called Social determinants of obesity aswell as List of preventable causes of death.  Would start a public health task force if people are interested.-- Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 20:25, 15 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I would definitely be interested. BoomerAB (talk) 14:03, 16 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I would also be interested. This page could be an excellent resource but I feel that the lay-out is poor.MrNiceGuy1113 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 20:12, 23 April 2012 (UTC).

Start Fresh
There is something really wrong with this article but I can't quite put my finger on it. I'm a medstudent trying to get some quick info and this page just seems really dense but isn't offering that much. It looks like it was mostly written by one person. Also what's with the Canadian only info?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.100.29.130 (talk) 19:10, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

The problem probably is that you are a medical student. This is a critical social science analysis.

Reflective essay? No. A critical social science analysis that has been published in various forms in numerous peer-reviewed journals that are referenced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dennisraphael (talk • contribs) 20:38, 1 December 2011 (UTC)


 * There are two major problems with this viewpoint:
 * This is a matter of public health, correct? Public health is not just social science - it's also medicine. Indeed, the field is founded on medicine primarily, with social science being a means to an end solely. If by "critical" in the above you mean critical theory, I note from that article that that field either falls apart with the evidence for the authoritarian nature of communism, rejects modernity (which has brought so much public health improvements; that includes a rejection of "rationalization" such as found in public health economics), or goes into postmodernist rejection of reality that is fundamentally opposed to science, including medical science. (If you disagree with this analysis of critical theory, I suggest hashing it out on that article's page. If you aren't talking about critical theory, I suggest you distinguish exactly what you mean.)
 * This is not a publication in a journal; it is a publication in Wikipedia. (And, if it has been published in a journal or journals, then I trust that copyright concerns have been taken care of?) There are several consequences to this. First, it is not the production of one person (or a small group of people who agree with each other); this is Wikipedia policy, not "just" a guideline. Second, it is not the presentation of one viewpoint; again, this is Wikipedia policy, not "just" a guideline. This particularly includes ideological viewpoints.
 * I trust that you will read over the above and respond civilly (as is likewise Wikipedia policy). Allens (talk) 13:46, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

I think that one of the first problems with this article is within the first paragraph. Social determinants are not only risk factors found in one's work environment.MrNiceGuy1113 (talk)
 * Social determinants of health can also be cultural or educational. While I do not disagree with the fact that social determinants of health can be occupational, they are not the only causes.MrNiceGuy1113 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 20:39, 23 April 2012 (UTC).

I agree on the need for a re-write. I think this article should focus on what the social determinants of health are. Ashleyleia (talk) 18:14, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Is anyone currently working on editing this article? I'd like to work on it and am wondering if there is anyone out there already collaborating on this. I think it needs some reorganization and tightening to make this interesting and readable to a layperson. Please leave a message on my page if you're interested. Overdispersedpoisson (talk) 22:24, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Any suggestions and feedback
Hi! I am a part of Rice University taking a course that is involved with the education program of Wikipedia. I was very interested in the relationship between health and how society affects this. I plan to create a new article that would be titled Social determinants of health in Mexico and would love all your help. I posted a sample outline of the new page in my sandbox on my userpage and I'd appreciate the feedback.

Also, I noticed the previous concerns of this page, so I'd like some advice on some useful sources that go with the topic. Thanks!

Cristell24 (talk) 02:28, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

This page is fine. Right wing trolls: Stay paid.
It is abusive and contemptuous of knowledge, that every single Wikipedia page that suggests that inequality, tyranny, elite barbarism, inhumanity, and fascism have negative effects and are socially, political and/or economically irrational, are trolled by paid right-wing hacks, who wallpaper them all with Wikipedia 'warnings'. The knowledge area on this page, the social determinants of health, is legitimate and a universe outside the paradigm, knowledge, and tolerance of right-wing paid trolls. It shouldn't have to wear their piss-badges right at the top. Wikipedia should have a policy that confines paid and activist conservatives and their liberal allies' graffiti to their subjects of expertise: neoclassical economics, Schmitt, Hayek, Ayn Rand, 50 Shades of Gray, positive psychology, the Chamber of Commerce, teevee shows, slavery, charity, feudalism, sycophants, retainers, golf, fundamentalist Christian movies, the defense industry, apotheosis, etc. Blanche Poubelle (talk) 00:30, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Definition of SODH
The first paragraph of this article


 *  The social determinants of health (SDOH) are the economic and social conditions and their distribution among the population that influence individual and group differences in health status ... 

starts with a definition which seems too restrictive and doesn't have reference. I would rather use the WHO's definition :


 *  The social determinants of health are the conditions in which people are born, grow, live, work and age, including the health system. These circumstances are shaped by the distribution of money, power and resources at global, national and local levels, which are themselves influenced by policy choices 

And finish by adding the reference for this definition --Phg14 (talk) 14:44, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

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Add a section that addresses race
I believe that race is an important social determinant of health, because of the health disparities seen between races in our country. I believe that it is important to make that addition to this article, especially in today's politically charged environment. America is a melting pot of different races and cultures, therefore emphasizing the effect race as a social determinate to health can greatly help this article.Tkk20 (talk) 04:24, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Smush99.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 09:36, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 January 2020 and 15 May 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Aamna11, Tegan190. Peer reviewers: Christinetranster, Rbwood, TheAlexRodriguez, Rachelswimmer.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 09:36, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Introduction to Policy Analysis - Summer Session22
— Assignment last updated by Dafaris (talk) 15:16, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Interrelation of determinants request
Hello, I have a request for editors to review a potential addition to this article based on recent research. The organization I work for focuses on addressing social determinants of health, and I realized that some of the research our organization financially supported (via a grant) may add helpful information to this article.

Within the section on Commonly accepted social determinants, could the findings from this Center for Migration Studies report that there is strong interrelation between determinants be added?


 * Quote: "Health determinants identified in the literature and analyzed here are highly correlated with each other: that is, if a neighborhood has one or two of the health indicators described here, they are likely to be vulnerable on the other measures."
 * Perhaps something like the following would be appropriate: "According to a report by the Center for Migration Studies of New York, the different social determinants of health are strongly correlated. People living in an area with one identified determinant also tend to be affected by other determinants."

I also have a similar request for the Social determinants of health in poverty, if editors would like to look at that, too. I am the Director of Communications for Mother Cabrini Health Foundation and have a conflict of interest. Thanks!

Bvar on Wiki (talk) 14:27, 14 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Dr. Van Nostrand Would this request be something you'd be interested in reviewing? I saw that you are one of the more experienced editors to edit this page recently. Thanks for any help! Bvar on Wiki (talk) 15:30, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi Bvar on Wiki, thanks for linking the article and the thoughtful additions to the Social determinants of health page based on the recent research. I have reviewed the report and made the suggested changes to improve the article. Let me know if you have any other requests. Best, Dr. Van Nostrand (talk) 16:27, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Equity in Occupational Health
— Assignment last updated by JMgeorgetown (talk) 19:59, 27 June 2023 (UTC)