Talk:Social history of viruses/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Axl (talk · contribs) 01:27, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I shall review the article. Axl ¤  [Talk]  01:27, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

From "In prehistory", paragraph 1: "In humans, this acquired immunity is only passed down to offspring temporarily." The qualification "In humans" implies that acquired immunity may be passed permanently in non-humans. Is this correct? Axl ¤  [Talk]  01:31, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for spotting this. I have made this clearer by deleting "In Humans" to make it connect better from the previous sentence. Graham Colm (talk)
 * Thanks. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  11:36, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

The same sentence: "In humans, this acquired immunity is only passed down to offspring temporarily through breast milk and the antibodies, which cross the placenta from the mother's blood to the unborn child's." I believe that breast milk contains IgA (i.e. antibodies), which are the mechanism of transfer of immunity. Axl ¤  [Talk]  01:37, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, and maternal IgG crosses the placenta. I have tried to make this clearer, but I don't think we need to name the classes of antibodies (IgG, IgD, IgA, IgM) here. Graham Colm (talk)
 * Sure, I agree. What I meant was that the initial wording stated that antibodies pass the placenta, but made no reference to antibodies in breast milk. Thank you for clarifying the text. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  11:39, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

From "In prehistory", paragraph 4: "Humans have lived with herpes virus infections since humans first came into being." Would it be reasonable to link "herpes virus" to "herpes simplex virus"? The page "Herpes virus" is a disambiguation page. Axl ¤  [Talk]  01:57, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I have linked it to herpesviridae because I am referring to CMV, EBV, VZV as well as HSV here. Graham Colm (talk)
 * Thanks. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  11:42, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

From "In prehistory", paragraph 4: "The virus passed to us from other mammals more than 80 million years ago." Anatomically modern humans arose about 200,000 years ago. More ancient archaic Homo sapiens arose about 500,000 years ago. I don't think that our 80-million-year old ancestors can really be equated with "us". Axl ¤  [Talk]  02:14, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * How about "them" Graham Colm (talk)
 * "Them" implies "humans". I don't think that they really were humans 80 million years ago. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  11:45, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * You are right, I have changed this to "The viruses first infected mammals more than 80 mya." Graham Colm (talk) 11:57, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * While the current text is certainly accurate, its meaning is different to the implication of the initial wording. The initial wording implied that other mammals were already infected, and passed the infection to the ancestors of modern humans 80 million years ago. From that implication, it is arguably self-evident that mammals must have become infected some time prior to 80 mya. The current text gives no indication of when the viruses passed to (the ancestors of) humans. Was it your intention to change the meaning? What exactly does the reference say? Axl  ¤  [Talk]  12:45, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The reference says, "Ancient viruses, like the herpes family, inhabited our evolutionary predecessors from the dawn of civilisation and were passed on when mammals evolved some 80 million years ago. Back then they were probably aggressive beasts, but over time they have co-evolved with us to reach a state of mutual tolerance. Now almost the whole human population is infected without being aware of it." Graham Colm (talk) 12:54, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmm, it is a little vague. How about "These viruses first infected the ancestors of modern humans over 80 million years ago." Axl  ¤  [Talk]  22:54, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's good. I have used this. Thank you. Graham Colm (talk) 23:02, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

From "In prehistory", paragraph 4: "But there is no reason to doubt that early hominids suffered from colds, 'flu and diarrhoea caused by viruses just as humans do today." How about: "However it is likely that early hominids suffered from colds, influenza and diarrhoea caused by viruses just as humans do today." Axl ¤  [Talk]  02:20, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I prefer the original. Graham Colm (talk)
 * Well, I think that reads more like an essay rather than using encyclopedic tone. Also, "'flu" is a colloquial abbreviation. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  11:49, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes on reflection, it does read like an essay. I have changed it to "Records of these milder virus infections are understandably rare but it is likely that early hominids suffered from colds, influenza and diarrhoea caused by viruses just as humans do today.", Graham Colm (talk) 12:05, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  12:47, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

From "In prehistory", paragraph 4: "It is the younger viruses that cause epidemics and pandemics – and it is those that history records." How about: "Younger viruses cause epidemics and pandemics – and it is these that history records." (Actually I'm not sure that "younger" is the right word.) Axl  ¤  [Talk]  02:24, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * By "younger" I mean more recently evolved. Perhaps it is better spelled out as such. Graham Colm (talk) 09:46, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for adjusting the text. Actually my main concern was removing the definite article. I have deleted "The" from the start of the sentence. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  11:53, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

In "In prehistory", paragraph 3, could you add a reference to the last part of the paragraph please? Axl ¤  [Talk]  11:55, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I have added one. Graham Colm (talk) 12:45, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  12:57, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

From "In antiquity", paragraph 2: "The close similarities between measles virus, canine distemper virus, and rinderpest virus...", would it be reasonable to link "canine distemper virus" to "Canine distemper"? "Canine distemper virus" redirects to "Canine distemper". Axl ¤  [Talk]  12:53, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I had a link in previous version, in a section I moved to Viral evolution. Graham Colm (talk) 13:01, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  22:56, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

From "In antiquity", paragraph 2: "The measles virus appears to have fully diverged from the then-widespread rinderpest virus by the 11th and 12th centuries." This should be either "by the 11th century" or "during the 11th and 12th centuries". If it had diverged before the 11th century, obviously it must have diverged before the 12th century. Axl ¤  [Talk]  23:38, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The source says "between the 11th and 12th centuries" so I have changed this to, "The measles virus appears to have fully diverged from the then-widespread rinderpest virus by the 12th century." Graham Colm (talk) 18:55, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

From "In antiquity", paragraph 3: "In more recent times, measles has become extinct on remote islands with populations of fewer than 500,000 people." I wonder if this should be "extirpated" rather than "extinct"? Axl ¤  [Talk]  12:05, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I have changed this as you have suggested and I have linked it because it is not a commonly understood term. Graham Colm (talk) 18:55, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  22:16, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

From "In antiquity", last paragraph: "The plant, later identified as Eupatorium lindleyanum, is often infected with Tomato yellow leaf curl virus." Should "Tomato" have a lower case "T"? Axl ¤  [Talk]  22:21, 6 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, well spotted.Graham Colm (talk) 06:47, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

From "Middle Ages", paragraph 2: "The average life expectancy during the Middle Ages was 35 years and 60% of children died before the age of 16, many of them during their first 6 years of life. Among the plethora of diseases common at the time were influenza, measles, and smallpox." It is unclear if these three diseases were a major cause of childhood death. I expect that smallpox was a major cause, while measles was not. I am unsure about influenza. Axl ¤  [Talk]  11:15, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
 * It is difficult to be precise because historical records with regards to causes of disease are not reliable. According to Oldstone, measles and smallpox were not easily distinguishable at the time. It was not until the 17th century, when Syndenham defined measles as a separate clinical entity, that the two infections were recorded separately. According to Dobson, the London Bills of Mortality recorded deaths from measles every year from 1629, and "it was a disease to be feared". Although she says the virus only accounted for a fraction of childhood deaths. This article says "In the British Isles, 49 ‘plagues’ of uncertain nature, but probably including measles, struck between 526 and 1087." It also comments on the similarities to smallpox, "During antiquity, measles was almost certainly confused with smallpox and not clearly differentiated from the latter before the 10th century." Although the population was smaller in the middle ages, and measles thrives in dense populations, at the time, at least in Europe, many people lived in crowded towns, where "walls served as a defense against possible attack but also meant that fires and diseases tended to be contained within the walls to the detriment of the inhabitants". .  I think it is safe to say that measles contributed to childhood deaths,  but I don't  say that it was a major cause of death, I wrote that it was "among the plethora of diseases common at the time". Graham Colm (talk) 19:49, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, that's fair enough. However the article does not actually say that measles, influenza and smallpox caused childhood death. There is only a vague implication by the juxtaposition of two sentences. Would it be reasonable to state: "Among the plethora of diseases that caused childhood death were measles, influenza and smallpox."? Axl  ¤  [Talk]  14:53, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for changing this. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  14:55, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

From "Middle Ages", last paragraph: "The resulting loss of cattle caused famine and starvation." "Famine" and "starvation" seem to be redundant. Perhaps just "famine"? Axl ¤  [Talk]  14:59, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree. Graham Colm (talk)

From "Early modern period", paragraph 3: "Sydenham had been a soldier and fought for the Parliamentarians during the English Civil War." I don't think that this is relevant. Perhaps delete it? Axl ¤  [Talk]  15:07, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, it probably more relevant to say that he was a great physician. Graham Colm (talk) 17:34, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

A general comment about the article's title and scope: the opening sentence says: "The social history of viruses describes the economic and cultural influence of viruses and viral infections on human history." Yet most of the article does not describe "economic and cultural influence of viruses". I realize that historical information is mostly unavailable, not least because of the difficulty in distinguishing the different diseases. Despite this, the section "In prehistory" (and parts of other sections) describe the influence of human culture on viruses, rather than the other way around. In the late 20th century, HIV/AIDS had a profound impact on the gay community, leading to cultural changes: use of condoms and possibly a reduction in promiscuity. There was also a lesser impact on the IV drug user community. HIV and viral hepatitis led to a change in the way medical blood products are handled.
 * Please see my comment below. With regard to HIV and the hepatitis viruses, these are valid points that need to be covered. Graham Colm (talk) 17:34, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

The page "History of viruses" redirects to this article. I wonder if this article would be better titled "History of viruses"? Axl ¤  [Talk]  12:16, 9 February 2013 (UTC)


 * There has been a lot of discussion on the title of the article. A tour of the page's history might be illuminating. Here's a synopsis. I conceived this contribution as an extension of the history section in "my" FA Virus, which I felt wanting but the length of that article precluded a longer section. My earlier versions were called History of viruses but I changed the title on January 7 – and created the redirect – after comments on the article's Talk Page and at the withdrawn FAC. I have moved substantial sections to History of virology,  Viral evolution and Animal virus. I feel limited by the constraints of WP:Title. I chose the current title after Quinn's "A social history of influenza", which has a similar theme and scope. Although  something along the lines of Oldstone's "Viruses, plagues and history" might be more apt. I suppose I could use "Viruses in history", but it sounds a little vague and would be difficult to define in the Lead. I am open to suggestions, but I don't want to go around in circles. Graham Colm (talk) 17:34, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

From "Early modern period", paragraph 4: "It was probably influenza, although we cannot be sure, because records from the time when medicine was not a science can be unreliable." The latter part of the sentence seems to be unnecessary. It would be sufficient to say "It was probably influenza." Axl ¤  [Talk]  12:20, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Possibly, but I need to check current theories on the Great Sweat. Graham Colm (talk) 17:34, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

In "Early modern period", could you add a reference to the last part of paragraph 4 please? Axl ¤  [Talk]  12:22, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
 * This is essentially self-evident, but I will add a reference. Graham Colm (talk) 17:34, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

From "Early modern period", paragraph 5: "References to influenza infections date from the late 15th and early 16th centuries, but infections almost certainly occurred long before then. The first that was reliably recorded began in Malta in July 1580, and swept across Europe, Africa, and Asia." I presume that the infection from Malta was a pandemic rather than a general influenza infection? Axl ¤  [Talk]  20:02, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, by definition. Should I say "The first that was reliably recorded was a pandemic that began in Malta"? Graham Colm (talk) 20:26, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Was this really the first reliable recording of influenza infection? Axl  ¤  [Talk]  12:15, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I can't find where I read that it started in Malta, so I have deleted this. All my sources agree that the 1580 pandemic was the first to be reliably recorded. Quinn says it was, "the first pandemic that is recorded with any real reliability" (p. 59). Potter says, "The outbreak of 1557 was possibly a pandemic; but the first influenza pandemic agreed by all authors occurred in 1580". I have expand the salient section to make this clearer. Graham Colm (talk) 20:50, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I am happy with the current wording. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  14:48, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

From "Early modern period", paragraph 5: "The first pandemic that was reliably recorded began in July 1580.... More than a century passed before the three pandemics of the 18th century." If the first pandemic was in 1580 and the next was in the 18th century, it is obvious that more than a century passed. Axl ¤  [Talk]  14:51, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I have removed the redundancy. Graham Colm (talk) 19:22, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

From "Early modern period", paragraph 5: "The pandemic began in November 1781 in the East Indies." Is the East Indies the same as (modern) India? Would it be reasonable to add "(India)" in the sentence? Axl ¤  [Talk]  15:01, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * At the time, I think the term included parts of Malaysia. This aside, sources vary on the country of origin. The consensus seems to be China, so I have changed it to this. I originally wrote Esst Indies because in Quinn (p.72) it says "...several accounts from different parts of the East Indies, mention a disorder similar in symptoms, prevailed in those parts in the months of October and November 1781". Graham Colm (talk) 19:22, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  19:56, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

From "Early modern period", paragraph 6: "the army of Pánfilo de Narváez (1478–1528), who followed Hernán Cortés (1495–1587) from Cuba." I don't think that the dates of birth and death are helpful. Perhaps delete them? Also, I believe that the dates quoted for Hernán Cortés are inaccurate. Axl ¤  [Talk]  15:08, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I have deleted the dates. I only put them in to remind the readers the where they were in the "timeline". Graham Colm (talk) 19:22, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

From "Early modern period", paragraph 6: "In the 150 years that followed 1492." I presume that 1492 is relevant because of Columbus' discovery? Axl ¤  [Talk]  15:15, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, of course. I have made this clear in the text. Graham Colm (talk) 19:22, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

From "Early modern period", paragraph 8: "Further epidemics of the disease occurred in the North Americas." I have not heard the phrase "the North Americas" before. Should this be just "North America"? Axl ¤  [Talk]  15:21, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, sorry a mutated revision of an earlier phrase. Now corrected. Graham Colm (talk) 19:22, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

In "Discovery of vaccination", paragraph 1, I would like to see more information about variolation in Istanbul. Also, I think that there is too much detail about Lady Montagu. Axl ¤  [Talk]  21:13, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Variolation did not originate in Istanbul and this was not the only country which had this tradition at the time. It was practiced in places as far apart as Wales and West Africa. The method of inoculation was different; the Chinese preferred insufflation and had elaborate blow pipes made of silver. Cotton plugs that had been impregnated with pus were also pushed up the nostrils. These methods were first described in Chinese books in the sixteenth century, and it is possible but not provable that practice started in China. So I can't add much about its use in Istanbul except in was a local practice. None of my sources say how common it was or how effective it was there, but the mortality of rate of variolation has been estimated at around 2% (compared to around 30-40% for smallpox). Graham Colm (talk) 21:39, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I did not know that. In that case, there is more to be added to the article about variolation&mdash;where it originated and where it was practised. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  15:25, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I have added a link to Inoculation, which gives more details about the practice. Graham Colm (talk) 22:03, 16 February 2013 (UTC)


 * What details given about her ladyship do you consider superfluous? Graham Colm (talk) 21:39, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Years of birth & death, aristocrat, writer, two weeks after arrival, brother died of smallpox, ordered Charles Maitland. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  15:44, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I am happy to remove her dates, since there is a main article about her. But I think the four sentences in question are important to show her motivation, dynamism, determination and forward-thinking. I want to avoid describing her as just the a wife of a politician. Graham Colm (talk) 22:03, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

From "Discovery of vaccination", paragraph 3: "The boy was James Phipps (1788–1853)." This sentence appears as a stand-alone statement, as though it is important of itself. Perhaps combine it with the subsequent sentence: "The boy (James Phipps) survived the experimental inoculation with cowpox virus and suffered only a mild fever." Axl ¤  [Talk]  12:47, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I have combined this with the following sentence. Graham Colm (talk) 19:22, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

From "Discovery of vaccination", last paragraph: "As a result, for the first time in twenty years, there was a severe outbreak of smallpox in Gloucester in 1895." That would make the preceding outbreak well after the introduction of the 1853 Vaccination Act. Is this correct? Axl ¤  [Talk]  12:57, 19 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, 1853 Vaccination Act did not eradicate smallpox; it helped to control it. There was a lack of compliance, as there is with vaccines today. The Act made provision for parents to withold the vaccine from their children and many did. As I have said in the article, "Compulsory vaccination was not well received and following protests the Anti Vaccination League and the Anti-Compulsory Vaccination League formed." So unpopular was the legislation, the subsequent Acts of 1867, 71, 73,85, 98 and 1907 increasingly bowed to public opinion and by 1948 vaccination became voluntary. Graham Colm (talk) 19:22, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

"Discovery of vaccination", subsection "Louis Pasteur and rabies", paragraph 1 states "the disease has been known for over 4000 years" and "The disease has been known since antiquity", which seem to be repetitive. Axl ¤  [Talk]  12:47, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes it was. I have deleted the repetition. Graham Colm (talk) 14:13, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

From "Discovery of vaccination", subsection "Louis Pasteur and rabies", paragraph 3: "A bricklayer had defended the boy from the dog with an iron bar." I don't see why this is relevant. Axl ¤  [Talk]  12:56, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
 * It illustrates how vicious the attack was. Most readers will not have seen a rabid dog "in action". In the so called furious form of the disease, rabid dogs loose all fear of humans and will attack and bite every moving object around them. The inclusion of this fact shows that the dog had the furious form as opposed to dumb form. It took a strong man, a bricklayer, with a heavy weapon to stop the dog's attacking. Presumably, the bricklayer hit the dog several times with the bar, but my source does not provide further details Graham Colm (talk) 14:13, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

From "Discovery of vaccination", subsection "Louis Pasteur and rabies", last paragraph: "Little was known about the cause of the disease until 1903 when Adelchi Negri (1876–1912) first saw microscopic lesions in the brains of rabid animals now called Negri bodies." I presume that the lesions were called Negri bodies, rather than the brains or the animals? Axl ¤  [Talk]  13:01, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Good point. I have rearranged the sentence. Graham Colm (talk) 14:13, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

From "20th century", paragraph 1: "the term "filterable virus" was coined to describe them." Is this a misnomer? "Unfilterable virus" would make more sense. Axl ¤  [Talk]  23:40, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Try a Google search for "filterable virus". Graham Colm (talk) 06:55, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, fair enough. The definition just seems counter-intuitive to me. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  11:13, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

From "20th and 21st centuries", subsection "Smallpox eradication", last paragraph: "The eradication campaign was not without casualties." I don't think that the sentence has encyclopedic tone. Axl ¤  [Talk]  11:30, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Borderline, IMHO. But I am open to suggestions on how to recast this. Graham Colm (talk) 22:29, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps combine it with the subsequent sentence: "The eradication campaign led to the death of Janet Parker..."? Axl  ¤  [Talk]  12:02, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes I agree. Graham Colm (talk) 12:07, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  17:46, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

From "20th and 21st centuries", subsection "Measles", paragraph 3: "In the US, by the mid-1970s the incidence of measles had fallen by 90 percent. This reduction was achieved by a mass vaccination programme that was known as "make measles a memory"." Perhaps re-order the statements to declare the programme first, followed by the fall in incidence? Axl ¤  [Talk]  11:33, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I have changed this to: "By the mid-1970s, following a mass vaccination programme that was known as "make measles a memory", the incidence of measles in the US had fallen by 90 percent." Per your suggestion. Graham Colm (talk) 22:29, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  11:59, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

From "20th and 21st centuries", subsection "Measles", last paragraph: "The use of the vaccine is not without risk, and its use has been controversial." Is this referring to Andrew Wakefield? In any case, I believe that the MMR vaccine controversy is relevant to this article, and there should be a couple of sentences about it. Axl ¤  [Talk]  12:09, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I was alluding to the scandal and the very low risk of encephalitis. Crawford (2000) has some useful background, and I'll see what reliable sources are available for Wakefield. I think you are right to say a couple of sentences is all that is needed here. Thank you for the suggestion. Graham Colm (talk) 12:39, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
 * That's great, thank you. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  18:00, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Speaking of MMR, I think that the article should mention that mumps and rubella (and chickenpox) have vaccines available, even if there isn't a full discussion of the diseases. Axl ¤  [Talk]  12:28, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I was considering a section on rubella. The social implications of infections in pregnancy were important. Mumps and chickenpox are worthy of a quick mention, but not much I think. Graham Colm (talk) 12:39, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I am hoping for just a single sentence stating that these vaccines exist, perhaps in the introductory part of "20th and 21st centuries". Axl  ¤  [Talk]  18:31, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

From "20th and 21st centuries", subsection "Measles", last paragraph: "Measles remains a public health problem in Japan, where it is now endemic and a National Measles Elimination Plan was established in December 2007, with a view to eliminating the disease from the country by 2012." Can we have an update on this please? Axl ¤  [Talk]  18:37, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I am trying to make sense of this, and I will update the article in due course. Graham Colm (talk) 10:41, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
 * In the absence of a definitive statement, perhaps just delete "by 2012"? Axl  ¤  [Talk]  21:45, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Good idea, thanks. Graham Colm (talk) 21:57, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

From "20th and 21st centuries", last paragraph: "In 2003, the largest virus by far, mimivirus was discovered to infect amoebae." Megavirus chilensis is now the largest known virus. Axl ¤  [Talk]  08:39, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes I know but I have been waiting for the International Committee on Taxonomy of Viruses to formally recognise the genus. Since they are dragging their heals, I have updated the sentence. Graham Colm (talk) 10:41, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the update. However I am not convinced that Megavirus is the largest "by far". The capsid of Mimivirus is 400 nm across while that of Megavirus chilensis is 440 nm across. Indeed the reference states that the capsid of Megavirus is "slightly larger in diameter [than Mimivirus]". Axl  ¤  [Talk]  21:32, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The "by far" should have been deleted with the previous edit. It's gone now. Graham Colm (talk) 21:57, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  22:32, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

In "20th and 21st centuries", subsection "Poliomyelitis", paragraph 1, perhaps put the information about the 1950s after the information about 1916–17? Axl ¤  [Talk]  21:52, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I have split the paragraph instead. I think a mini Lead is useful in this section. Graham Colm (talk) 19:06, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

From "20th and 21st centuries", subsection "Poliomyelitis", paragraph 1: "The disease was not confined to the US, as many other industrialised countries were affected at the same time." The first half of the sentence is redundant. Axl ¤  [Talk]  22:22, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes it was, thanks. Graham Colm (talk) 19:06, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

From "20th and 21st centuries", subsection "Poliomyelitis", paragraph 3: "Why a disease that is caused by a virus that is passed from person to person by the faecal-oral route, and only naturally infects humans, became a problem during times of improved sanitation and increasing affluence is a paradox." Can this sentence be simplified please? Perhaps split it into two? Axl ¤  [Talk]  11:38, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, thanks. Graham Colm (talk) 15:42, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I have adjusted the text. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  11:04, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

In "20th and 21st centuries", subsection "Poliomyelitis", last paragraph, perhaps put the murders of vaccinators in Pakistan/Nigeria before the murder of a police officer? Axl ¤  [Talk]  11:43, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Done as suggested, thanks. Graham Colm (talk) 15:42, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

From "20th and 21st centuries", subsection "AIDS", paragraph 1: "It is now a pandemic, and an estimated 38.6 million people now live with the disease worldwide." Is this the disease (AIDS) or the virus (HIV)? Axl ¤  [Talk]  11:48, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I have updated and clarified these facts. Graham Colm (talk) 15:42, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I have adjusted the formatting. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  11:12, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

In the same paragraph, there is a discrepancy between that number (38.6 million) and the numbers quoted later: "As of 2010, over 40 million people have been infected and more than 25 million of them have died from AIDS-related diseases." Axl  ¤  [Talk]  11:53, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * See reply above. Graham Colm (talk) 15:42, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

The same paragraph duplicates the statement that 25 million have died from AIDS. Axl ¤  [Talk]  11:55, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * See reply above. Graham Colm (talk) 15:42, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

From "20th and 21st centuries", subsection "AIDS", paragraph 1: "When, in 1981 a scientific article was published that reported the deaths of five young gay men." Although it is implied from the context, perhaps explicitly state that these men were subsequently believed to have died from AIDS? Axl ¤  [Talk]  11:57, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree and done. Graham Colm (talk) 15:42, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

From "20th and 21st centuries", subsection "AIDS", paragraph 2: "This led the World Health Assembly to pass a 1987 resolution." Was this really a "resolution"? Or just a statement? Axl ¤  [Talk]  12:05, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The source (Weeks) says "resolution". Graham Colm (talk) 15:42, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, thanks. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  11:32, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

From "20th and 21st centuries", subsection "Influenza", paragraph 1: "The last pandemic of the 19th century occurred in 1899 and resulted in the deaths of 250,000 people in Europe alone." Use of the word "alone" implies that many deaths occurred outside Europe. If there is no information about the number of deaths outside Europe, perhaps delete the word "alone"? Axl ¤  [Talk]  12:10, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Deleted "alone". Graham Colm (talk) 15:42, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

From "20th and 21st centuries", subsection "Influenza", last paragraph: "More than 30 years passed until the next pandemic in 2009." "More than 30 years" seems to be redundant. Axl ¤  [Talk]  07:13, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Removed redundancy. 15:42, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks again for taking the time to review this article. I appreciate these and further comments; they are most helpful. Graham Colm (talk) 15:42, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

In "20th and 21st centuries", subsection "Influenza", last paragraph, hasn't improved medical care since the 1918 pandemic helped to reduce the death tolls of subsequent pandemics? Also, wasn't the close crowding of soldiers in trenches at the end of WWI a factor? Sick soldiers were typically transported by train to hospitals well behind the trenches, while mildly ill soldiers remained at the front, spreading the infection. Axl ¤  [Talk]  13:20, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The strain of the virus that caused the pandemic is considered to be the main reason for the high mortality. That's why there is so much interest in reconstructing it by PCR from tissue. (See: ). Influenza virus was not isolated until the 1930s and no samples of the 1918 strain exist. The molecular biology of the renconstructed virus is helping to solve the mystery of its virulence, but I don't think we have a clear-cut answer yet (which would probably be beyond the scope of this article in any case). Your point about the trenches of WW1 is interesting, but very Eurocentric. The infection killed 50 million people worldwide. Trench warfare does not explain how the virus "spread over the whole of [China] like a tidal wave". (Barry p. 172) Or, how "in Sidney it sickened 30% of the population" (ibid) and so on and so forth. With regard to improved medical care, healthcare services cannot cope with pandemics as all subsequent pandemics have shown (including the 2009 one). I doubt very much if improved healthcare can offer any explantion as to why the 1918 pandemic was so lethal. Graham Colm (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I accept your points, except regarding healthcare. I think it likely that improving healthcare since 1918 has been a contributory factor (but of course not the only factor) to reducing subsequent death tolls. Of course, this is just my opinion. Anyway, with your detailed explanation, I am happy to keep the article text as it is. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  12:22, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

From "20th and 21st centuries", subsection "Yellow fever, dengue and other arboviruses", paragraph 1: "There are more than 500 species of arboviruses, but in the 1930s only three were known to cause disease in humans: yellow fever, dengue and Pappataci fever." Should "yellow fever" and "dengue" also have wikilinks? Should "dengue" properly be called "dengue fever"? Use of the word "dengue" alone to describe the disease seems to be colloquial. Axl ¤  [Talk]  13:26, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I have added links to dengue fever, dengue virus and yellow fever. Graham Colm (talk) 15:49, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

From "20th and 21st centuries", subsection "Yellow fever, dengue and other arboviruses", paragraph 2: "In 1905, the last major epidemic occurred in the US." This sentence implies that the last major epidemic was in 1905. Perhaps it should read "In 1905, the last major epidemic in the US occurred."? Axl ¤  [Talk]  13:31, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree. I have rearranged the salient sentence. Graham Colm (talk) 15:49, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

From "20th and 21st centuries", subsection "Hepatitis viruses": "The diseases caused by hepatitis viruses were all recognised before the viruses were discovered." How helpful is this statement? Are there (human) diseases where the virus was discovered before the disease was described? Axl ¤  [Talk]  10:36, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, that phrase was not helpful at all. I have deleted it. Graham Colm (talk) 18:40, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

In "20th and 21st centuries", subsection "Hepatitis viruses", it is worth mentioning that transmission of hepatitis B & C (and HIV) in blood product transfusion has led to a change in the way that blood products are handled. It may also be worth mentioning that used sharp medical instruments (needles, etc.) are carefully disposed. Axl ¤  [Talk]  10:40, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have added a paragraph on this.Graham Colm (talk) 18:40, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you. That is an excellent summary. (I have adjusted the last sentence.) Axl  ¤  [Talk]  19:09, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

From "20th and 21st centuries", subsection "Epizootics", paragraph 1: "Viral diseases of livestock can be devastating both to farmers and the wider community as the outbreaks of foot and mouth disease in the UK in 2001 has shown." Should "outbreaks" really be plural? (If so, the sentence should end "have shown.") Axl  ¤  [Talk]  10:45, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have deleted the 's'. Graham Colm (talk) 18:40, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

From "20th and 21st centuries", subsection "Epizootics", paragraph 2: "in 1994 the Global Rinderpest Eradication Programme was launched by the Food and Agriculture Organization with the aim of global eradication by 2010." Any update on this? If not, perhaps delete "by 2010". Axl ¤  [Talk]  10:53, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have updated this by adding the 2011 announcement. Graham Colm (talk) 18:40, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  19:12, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

From "20th and 21st centuries", subsection "Agriculture", paragraph 2: "In Ghana by 1977, the mealybug-transmitted cacao swollen root badnavirus caused the loss of 162 million cacao trees." Over what period of time were these 162 million trees lost? Axl ¤  [Talk]  14:25, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Between 1936 and 1977. I have given the range and added a second supporting citation. Graham Colm (talk) 18:15, 4 April 2013 (UTC)×
 * Thanks. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  19:46, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

From "20th and 21st centuries", subsection "Agriculture", last paragraph: "The citrus tristeza closterovirus (CTV) was introduced to South America from Africa between 1926 and 1930." Wikipedia has the article "Citrus tristeza virus". Would it be reasonable to change "closterovirus" to "virus" and add a wikilink? Axl ¤  [Talk]  09:36, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes it would, thanks. I hadn't see that article before – it needs a little work, but it's a useful contribution, and an excellent link for here. Graham Colm (talk) 12:57, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

From "20th and 21st centuries", subsection "Agriculture", last paragraph: "By 1950, more than 6 million citrus trees had been destroyed in Brazil." I am not sure what "destroyed" means in this context. Were these trees killed by the virus? Or were the trees killed by farmers in an attempt to prevent spread of the disease? Axl ¤  [Talk]  09:31, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The virus is very destructive. I have changed the sentence to: "By 1950, more than 6 million citrus trees had been killed by the virus in São Paulo, Brazil." Graham Colm (talk) 12:57, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  13:38, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

From "20th and 21st centuries", subsection "Agriculture", last paragraph: "CTV and citrus trees probably coevolved for centuries in their original countries." Do citrus trees really evolve over a period of centuries? (I accept that viruses, with their fast life cycles, may well evolve over this time period.) Axl  ¤  [Talk]  10:08, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The source says, "Adapted to replicate in phloem cells of a few species within the family Rutaceae and to transmission by a few aphid species, CTV and citrus probably coevolved for centuries at the site of origin of citrus plants." But I agree that it was probably many centuries. Actually, citrus tristeza virus evolves slowly compared to other RNA viruses (see: ). Domesticated plants evolve more quickly than their wild-type counterparts, although this is probably by human selection rather than natural selection. This book has some interesting information on this with regard to citrus:   But it's beyond the scope of this article. Graham Colm (talk) 12:57, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Let's leave the current text as it is. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  13:40, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

From "Emerging viruses", subsection "West Nile virus": "An increasing frequency of epidemics and enzootics (in horses) began in 1996." Should "enzootics" be "epizootics"? Axl ¤  [Talk]  12:03, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, that was a silly mistake, thanks. Graham Colm (talk) 13:31, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

From "Emerging viruses", subsection "West Nile virus": "In the US, mosquitoes carry the highest amounts of virus in late summer, and the rate of the disease increases in late August to early September." Perhaps "prevalence" rather than "rate"? Axl ¤  [Talk]  12:07, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have changed it to "incidence". I was trying to avoid the use of "prevalence" or "incidence" because these terms have distinct meanings in epidemiology. Graham Colm (talk) 13:31, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * While use of the word "incidence" is technically correct, incidence is usually considered per year, and this could be confusing when considering a period of one or two months. Perhaps change it to "number of cases of the disease increase"? This would also be easier for lay people to understand. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  18:45, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have adopted this suggestion. Graham Colm (talk) 20:25, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

From "Friendly viruses", paragraph 2: "They are the most abundant species on Earth." "Species"? Axl ¤  [Talk]  22:06, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The definition of viral species is explained here. (Click on "Look inside). If you are concerned about the (somewhat pointless) living versus non-living philosophical debate, I could use the expression "biological entities". Graham Colm (talk) 02:12, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * My concern is not the distinction between living & non-living. Rather it is the categorization of viruses as "a species". In the same way, I would object to a statement that declares: "Animals are the most active species on Earth." The group "Animals" is not a species. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  11:54, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I see your point. And thank you for reminding me (who should know better) how diverse viruses are. Well, we can't use "life-forms" because that will open a can of worms. So shall we go for "biological entities"? Or can you think of a better way around the problem? Graham Colm (talk) 14:46, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * While I have no problem with describing viruses as "biological entities", to describe them as "more abundant" than other biological entities implies that there are other categories of biological entities. Without a formal definition of "biological entities" and categories within that group, it is difficult to compare these categories.


 * Perhaps something along the lines of: "Viruses are more numerous than animals, plants, fungi, protists & bacteria combined." However it does look a little clumsy. What exactly does the reference (Zimmer) say? Later in the paragraph, viruses are noted to be 15 times more numerous than bacteria and archaea in the ocean, so the former statement about abundance may be superfluous anyway. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  13:09, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think it would be best just to delete the salient statement. I can't see a solution to this problem without over icing the cake.Graham Colm (talk) 13:50, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  16:09, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

From "Friendly viruses", paragraph 2: "Viruses... help maintain the ecological balance of different species of marine blue-green algae, and thus adequate oxygen production for all other life on Earth." Do plants require oxygen production from blue-green algae? Axl ¤  [Talk]  22:16, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes. Plants, their roots in particular, need oxygen. Have you ever drowned a house plant? I have. For less anecdotal evidence see page 366 here: And page 190 here:  Even the obligate anerobic bacteria require the coexistance aerobic organisms. It can be argued that some extremophiles may not require oxygen, but much of the carbon that reaches the bottom of the oceans comes from microbes killed by viruses. But we are entering the realm of angels on pinheads. Graham Colm (talk) 02:12, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I am sure that you are aware of plants that don't have roots (mosses). In general though, I accept your statement. Of course the reason that modern organisms "require" oxygen is because they have evolved in an oxygen-rich environment, and it is advantageous to utilize the oxygen. If the atmosphere remained low in oxygen as in the precambrian, organisms would have evolved differently.
 * But it didn't and they didn't. Graham Colm (talk) 14:46, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The implication of the original statement is that life couldn't exist on Earth without the presence of these algae/oxygen-regulating viruses. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  13:14, 10 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Anyway, how would you feel about deleting the word "all"? Axl  ¤  [Talk]  12:17, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It rather defuses the statement, but it's a good compromise, so I will remove the contentious "all". Graham Colm (talk) 14:46, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  13:14, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

From "Friendly viruses", paragraph 3: "The use of bacteriophages to control bacteria was first described by Russian scientists in the 1950s and 1960s." The Wikipedia articles "Bacteriophage" and "Phage therapy" describe the Eliava Institute. Axl ¤  [Talk]  13:22, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * ...and both provide no sources. Actually I think the full details of this do not belong in this article but in "my" companion contribution History of virology. Anyhow, Zimmer (p.37) mentions the Institute, so I can add this if you consider it important. Graham Colm (talk) 14:10, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The reference given is to a 1997 BBC Horizon documentary: "Phage – the virus that cures". I raise the issue not because I expect full details of the Eliava Institute in this article, but because the Eliava Institute is alleged to have conducted phage therapy research in the 1920s & '30s. It is a direct contradiction to this article's statement: "The use of bacteriophages to control bacteria was first described by Russian scientists in the 1950s and 1960s." (Indeed it is also alleged that Eli Lilly conducted phage therapy research in the 1940s in the USA.) Axl  ¤  [Talk]  16:06, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The first Russian clinical trial – it was massive, over 30,769 children were recruited – was conducted by the institute in 1963. But the results were not released to the West by the Soviets until 1989. Before this they had been experimenting with page therapy, particularly on soldiers during World War II, since 1923. But I could change the sentence to "Bacteriophages were first used to control bacteria by Russian scientists in the 1920s and a large clinical trial was conducted by them in 1963. I can source this to Zimmer p. 37. To complicate the matter further, there is a French report from 1921 (Bruynoghe R, Maisin J. Essais de thérapeutique au moyen du bacteriophage. C R Soc Biol. 1921;85:1120–1121) which describes the use of bacteriophages to treat staphylococcal infections. So we might want to say "Bacteriophages were first used to control bacteria in the 1920s and a large clinical trial was conducted by Russian scientists in 1963." I can source the French study to:  Graham Colm (talk) 16:49, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, that would be fine. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  17:14, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

From "Friendly viruses", paragraph 4: "Most of this DNA is no longer functional, and a few sequences might occasionally cause harm, but the remainder seem to be harmless." This statement implies three categories of ancient retroviral DNA: "no longer functional", "occasionally cause harm", and "harmless". Axl ¤  [Talk]  13:35, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This is probably true, but as these "categories" are not formally recognised, I have shortened the sentence. Graham Colm (talk) 14:17, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. (If they were indeed intended to be three separate categories, the distinction between "harmless" and "no longer functional" was unclear to me.) Axl  ¤  [Talk]  16:20, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

From "Friendly viruses", last paragraph: "The debate as to whether viruses are alive continues. In 2000, they were officially declared as non-living by the International Committee on Taxonomy of Viruses, but the debate continues." Apart from the duplication with the statement, I am unconvinced that this is relevant to "Friendly viruses". Indeed the categorization of whether viruses are alive or non-living has little to do with "the economic and cultural influence of viruses and viral infections on human history", which is supposed to be the scope of this article. Perhaps just delete the statement. Axl ¤  [Talk]  13:30, 10 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, I was seeking a satisfying conclusion. Clearly this one does not work. I have changed the last sentence to "Viruses have transferred important genes to plants. About 10 percent of all current photosynthesis uses genes that have been transferred to plants by viruses." Graham Colm (talk) 13:50, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  16:39, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Summary
We have resolved almost all of my concerns above. There are a few outstanding points where Graham Colm has disagreed with me. (These are points that I haven't struck out.) Graham Colm has considered each point on its own merit. In general, I am happy to regard these unresolved points as simple editorial disagreement rather than anything more significant (i.e. something that might prevent GA status).

However I have an ongoing concern about the title of the article. I do not believe that the article's title matches the content. If, for example, I saw an article called "Social history of gorillas", I would not expect it to be about the economic and cultural influence of gorillas on human history. Obviously viruses do not have the capacity to be sociable with one another (at least not in the everyday meaning of the word), leaving the meaning of the current title somewhat mysterious.

A more accurate title might be "Economic and cultural influence of viruses". This implicitly refers to the effect on human societies. Anyway, this is a debate that would benefit from a wider consensus view.

Regarding the GA criteria:-


 * 1) The article is well-written. The text reads nicely and flows smoothly.
 * 2) The article is verifiable, with references used throughout. A few references are somewhat old, but that's okay.
 * 3) The whole topic is covered, without excessive detail.
 * 4) The article is neutral in tone.
 * 5) There is no edit war.
 * 6) A nice selection of pictures illustrate the article. All pictures have free licenses, and are linked from Wikimedia Commons.

I am awarding GA status. My thanks and congratulations to Graham Colm. Axl ¤  [Talk]  11:23, 11 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi Axl, thank you for this review, the copyediting and the important suggestions you have made. Most appreciated. Graham. Graham Colm (talk) 19:43, 11 April 2013 (UTC)