Talk:Socialist Patients' Collective

Sweden, psyops, and the SPK
The one RAF action credited to solely former SPK members is the bombing of the W. German embassy in Sweden. Given that the SPK myth was largely influenced by German and US counter-terror, and the well-documented psyops against Sweden aimed at turning them against the USSR, I'd be interested in learning of any credible sources connecting the two.Healthisinyou (talk) 18:04, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Edit: Most accounts say that everyone involved with that action was ex-SPK - actually, only two people were: Krabbe and Taufer. The other four weren't even in Heidelberg.Healthisinyou (talk) 18:04, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

If the SPK was so tight with the RAF, how come the RAF during the embassy occupation demanded the release of almost all RAF prisoners as well as 3 non RAF prisoners (including one random squatter kid whose house was bombed), but failed to demand the release of Drs. Huber and Schaefer or published SPK author (?) Werner Schork (arrested with Carmen Roll; Roll was included in the communique)? Healthisinyou (talk) 18:20, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Trial
Is there any first hand information stating the charges against the SPK and telling what the defense argued at the trial? The accounts I can find simply says that they refused to participate, and SPK-sources reject that they did anything illegal.Healthisinyou (talk) 18:08, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Myths
The incomprehensible German poster is right - the SPK was not a violent terrorist organization. After digging around quite a bit, it seems the SPK was just a Marxist (anti-?)therapy group, inspired by Szasz and Laing. I can't find any newspaper accounts from the time of its formation and alleged bomb-making (and you'd think something this out there would get a good deal of press from sources hostile to the New Left - yet there's nothing, even in the German language press), while there are numerous sources documenting West Germany's hard-line approach to the student movement in the face of wide-spread support for the RAF, including quite a bit of disinformation. Are there any sources that pre-date the Berster trial that supports the view of SPK as engaged in terrorism? It seems likely that the story of its formation - with patients threatening suicide - is just as biased, though I've only been able to find secondary sources on that. Anyone feel like digging through the SPK website to make some sense of it?Healthisinyou (talk) 18:10, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * You have been fed ideology without any basis in facts. Just read the stuff the SPK itself published (full bibliography given on the German page of this article) and the reliable books on the RAF.--Radh (talk) 09:10, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I've waded through a ton of it, including the newer published stuff by the "SPK" that breaks off false-flag psyops. I'd love to read more of stuff the SPK published in these alleged terrorism years, 69-72, but can't find it. Do you have sources?

As far as ideology, I certainly was fed quite a lot of it - and none of it was critical of the West German government.Healthisinyou (talk) 18:10, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Not everything critical of the Westgerman state was ideology or lies. But there was then a constant flow of marxist. maoist, communist, anarchist, socialist propaganda, on the radio, in magazines like Konkret and tons of books, published mostly by capitalist houses. All this ideology worked for tons of people (including yours truely) until the end of the 1970s. Gerd Koenen has published the history of this Red Decade.
 * As far as I know everything the early pre-RAF and RAF-SPK has published is listed on the German version of this article. The Trikont thing was the only SPK book, the Kursbuch essay probably the last statement of the "real" SPK (just the name SPK was changed to slightly japanese sounding IZRU). Dr. Huber will have written stuff, but I do not know of it. Someone still a bit sympathetic to the RAF is Theweleit.--Radh (talk) 15:07, 29 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the pointers - I'd read the German page but didn't come across those links. I understand that, but given the presence of Operation Gladio and their influence on the Red Brigades - and other Gladio stay-behind armies throughout Europe, it seems highly likely that they had a hand in the RAF.  Several journalists maintain this was the case (citation needed, I'm too tired to find it, but this is the talk page - I suspect it's on this site somewhere).  I'm also gonna check out the book written at the SPK about the Hubers' trial to try to find out more about these people - would it be ok to add information about the trial to this wiki page?Healthisinyou (talk) 18:10, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Jimbo Wales highly recommended ...
Jimbo Wales highly recommended to delete the article about the SPK and all links to the Wikipedia-project terrorism. See our recent Boston meeting, see the juridical proceedings of SPK against Wikipedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.56.208.239 (talk • contribs).


 * How can you delete the article? Everything in it has been taken from books about the SPK such as Hitler's Children by Jillian Becker, or Televisionaries by Tom Vague. Its all based on sources and fact. Are you going to delete those books as well? ~ Unfortunate.


 * I'd take this with a grain of salt. Jimbo usually posts things like this himself rather than having anonymous IPs leave unsigned messages all over the place.  I'm guessing this is someone witha bone to pick about the article trying to bully his way through.  Of course, if Jimbo does come forward and say he thinks it should go I'll end up eating my words. --StuffOfInterest 12:00, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The article needs to be improved, but we don't delete noteable historical events, people or groups. This group has ties to the infamous Baader-Meinhof Gang and the Postwar German Decade of Terror 1968-1977. WAS 4.250 12:37, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

"WOLFGANG HUBER, a German psychiatrist from Heidelberg University, founded a Neo-Nazi terrorist group in Germany in the 1960s and used psychiatric patients to swell its ranks. In group therapy sessions the psychiatrist propagated the idea that the "capitalist performance of the Federal Republic was sick within itself and was thus producing mentally sick people which could only be changed by violent revolution." His wife, Ursula, helped school his patients in explosives, surveillance techniques and unarmed combat. Between December 1969 and June 1971, the group's terrorist activities led to deaths, including the death of two police officers. The psychiatrist was arrested in 1971 and was jailed until 1975; after his release, he went underground. Another faction of his group operated until 1999." WAS 4.250 12:41, 20 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The www.psychassault.org site belongs to the CCHR front of the Church of Scientology, who aren't the most reliable of sources on the topic of psychiatry. AndroidCat 11:29, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * What WAS 4.250 wrote are libelous, difamatory and punishable lies. 190.27.98.101 (talk) 02:18, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Lies or very badly informed: if anything, the SPK was "Leninist", def. but certainly not "NeoNazi", Horst Mahler (then RAF) was then no Nazi, SPK members did prepare for World Revolution, but why should Huber and his wife have joined in these war games? This WAS guy also simply confuses SPK and RAF. I can understand if somebody gets carried away and writes complete nonsense, have done this myself, but this is a bit much.--Radh (talk) 06:09, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I made no recommendation
I made no recommendation about this article. The anon ip number should be ignored.--Jimbo Wales 23:32, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Concerning the lawyer of the SPK/PF(H), Ingeborg Muhler
Concerning the lawyer of the SPK/PF(H), Ingeborg Muhler, I found this: http://www.spkpfh.de/Europe_against_EuthaNAZIa.htm#Ingeborg_Muhler —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.80.18.136 (talk) 22:07, 16 December 2006 (UTC).

link points strangely
The links from the name Wolfgang Huber seem to point to another unrelated Wolfgang Huber. At least, the target page says nothing about SPK.

Oegat 00:17, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

And someone keeps restoring this nonsensical bluelink--Radh (talk) 12:08, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Propaganda bibliography
We are trying to have a (as complete as possible) list of the writings of the early, pre-RAF SPK and IZRU on the German, de WP page.--Radh (talk) 07:53, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

History
I tried to fill in and clarify the history, but I used a Google-translated page as a reference so it might be off as I couldn't make sense of all of it. I've found that most histories read like hearsay and focus on Dr. Huber as a leader and a guru, with mental patients and students rallying behind him for no apparent reason, so I tried to fix. It seems that these accounts conflate Huber with the 500-member SPK in order to condemn them all based on his alleged (an questionable) RAF ties. While a handful of SPK members may have ALSO been involved with the RAF, this was definitely a distinct movement with distinct goals and theory that should be evaluated in its own right. Also, many people assert that it was started because Huber got fired, but I don't think that's correct - is it possible that he wasn't fired til after he was let out of prison (a few sources say this, I think - it's Google Translate).Healthisinyou (talk) 18:20, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I am not saying that you're not making some valid points, but don't you think you simply have to be able to read their papers and essays and the book to be able to say something definite about the early spk? But, you have some valid points (and I for one am not able to answer your question on German WP right now). But: the Spk-Raf ties were not "alleged", although I do not know how Huber really thought about this, but some vocal members of the spk - at least towards the end of the group - really thought that Meinhof, Ensslin, Baader: Das sind unsere Kader! (were their Kader/cadre).--Radh (talk) 18:47, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Revert
I had tried to straighten out the grammar in the lead, made it a bit more representative of the article body per WP:LEAD, and added some sources: edits, revert. Let's work out the problems. -- JN 466  17:09, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * "I've reverted your editions to the lead despite of your grammar and style could be better than mine. Nothing against you nor against your efforts (thanks!), but I found some inaccuarcies in your edition, that I will discuss here before changing the lead..." ... it continues here: and here: - ClaudioSantos (talk) 17:38, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * For the long and hard job related to the current lead see: -- ClaudioSantos (talk) 22:33, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Tidied again and fixed grammer. I've removed terms that, in my opinion, were non-sensical in English like "frontpatient". If you can explain what is meant by this term maybe we can find an English equivalent. FiachraByrne (talk) 05:27, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Mental illness, illness or both?
Forgive my ignorance but, so far as I can make out Huber was/is a psychiatrist. Was the patients' front composed of former psychiatric patients? With the references to illness and disease and using it as weapon, are they referring to all forms of illness or just mental illness? FiachraByrne (talk) 09:54, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I am pretty sure it was only mental illness from what I've read. Totnesmartin (talk) 10:24, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * ThanksFiachraByrne (talk) 10:46, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * No. They refer to all illness and expresively claim that distinction between 'mental' and 'physical' is just a false distinction product of a society based on merchandise and money. And you are also wrong thinking the patient's front were conformed with "former psychiatric patients". See for example: http://www.spkpfh.de/ProposalSPKtext.htm, http://www.spkpfh.de/Iatrarchy.htm and http://www.spkpfh.de/Preface_Sartre.htm -- ClaudioSantos (talk) 15:41, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * This should be mad clear in the article. --Error (talk) 17:47, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Correction of inconsistency
In addition to reducing the lengthy Lead section, I have inserted the new title, "Patients' Front/Socialist Patients' Collective (PF/SPK(H))", in the body of the article so that the relevant section is consistent with the Lead section. I hope that this is accurate.--Soulparadox (talk) 12:10, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Real, or just a historical footnote?
Are there any sources, other than "their" own web site, indicating that this group still exists in 2019, or even after 2000? I'm inclined to question Notability. IAmNitpicking (talk) 12:49, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Joke or serious?
Maybe there should be a clarification of how "real" this group actually was. Were these people being completely serious? Was it some elaborate satire? It seems like something conservatives would've made up to parody European New Left groups. 2600:8801:710D:EA00:AC5B:F70F:80FC:CD82 (talk) 20:49, 9 May 2023 (UTC)