Talk:Soho/Archive 1

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Soho featured in a music video
If anyone knows the name of the band and song post here. It features two white girls and a black guy dressed as a pimp. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skylined79 (talk • contribs) 22:24, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Snow
Re 'disabled' vs. 'sabotaged': AFAIK John Snow went and removed the handle without consulting any other authorities, based on his theories. He did it for a good reason, but others presumably would not have approved of what would have seen like vandalism at the time. I need to consult some references about this. The Anome

Ah. The story as I heard it looks apocryphal: see http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/snow/mapmyth/mapmyth.html The Anome

From that site come the following in John Snow's own words
 * On proceeding to the spot, I found that nearly all the deaths had taken place within a short distance of the [Broad Street] pump. There were only ten deaths in houses situated decidedly nearer to another street-pump. In five of these cases the families of the decreased persons informed me that they always sent to the pump in Broad Street, as they preferred the water to that of the pumps which were nearer. In three other cases, the deceased were children who went to school near the pump in Broad Street ... 


 * With regard to the deaths occurring in the locality belonging to the pump, there were 61 instances in which I was informed that the deceased persons used to drink the pump water from Broad Street, either constantly or occasionally ... 


 * The result of the inquiry, then, is, that there was been no particular outbreak or prevalence of cholera in this part of London except among the persons who were in the habit of drinking the water of the above-mentioned pump well. 


 * I had an interview with the Board of Guardians of St James's parish, on the evening of the 7th inst [Sept 7], and represented the above circumstances to them. In consequence of what I said, the handle of the pump was removed on the following day.

The only "apocryphal" bit is that he used a spot map to identify the outbreak. In fact he used a map, after he had already made his conclusions, to illustrate his report. Mintguy (T)

I edited out "Attempting to buy drugs from these people is not recommended and many closed circuit cameras cover the area." As it seems rather inappropriate. Lets try not to turn Wikipedia into streetwise drug user website. If you disagree please replace it within the article at the end of Sex Industry and Soho. But at least give an explanation.

map of soho
The article currently describes Soho as
 * It is roughly the area bounded by Oxford Street to the north, Regent Street to the west, Piccadilly Circus and Leicester Square to the south, and Charing Cross Road in the east. The area to the west is known as Mayfair.

For those that don't know London that well, how about a map of London (so we can see if it is in the North, South, South-East, etc.). I think that it would be quite useful if we had one, as Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Thelb 4 21:01, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Top right of article "Maps for TQ295815" MRSC 21:08, 1 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, but the links given there don't highlight Soho out of London, they are just street maps. Thelb 4  16:11, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Chinatown/Leicester Square
The article implies Chinatown and Leicester Square are areas which lie south of Soho - surely they are places IN the south of Soho? I don't think you can call Leicester Square an area in its own right. 193.63.80.209 12:22, 20 October 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lfh (talk • contribs).

Strongly disagree with this, Leicester Square is definately an area in its own right. I would also argue that China Town lies within the Leicester Square area, not Soho. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.146.157.138 (talk) 16:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Notable Places
I think the list should have The Windmill and the place were the handle was removed from the pump because the water was poisoned. 87.194.35.230 07:01, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Mentions in song
The article currently cites the mention of Soho in Warren Zevon's "Werewolves of London". Should The Who's Who Are You also get a mention? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.185.194.243 (talk) 06:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

Although many other Wikipedia pages include 'references in popular culture', the Soho article doesn't. Maybe it should, and such a section would be the appropriate place for this, and other, lyrical mentions. A full list might be longer than that for any other city district in the world, and could include the Who's Pinball Wizard, Philip Lynott's Solo in Soho, The Pogues' Rainy Night in Soho, Kirsty MacColl's Soho Square, Belle and Sebastian's The Boy with the Arab Strap, The Jam's 'A' Bomb in Wardour Street, Jools Holland's Soho, the Kink's Lola, Ian Dury's Apples, Murray Head's Old Soho, the Nips' The Tits Of Soho (album), Pulp's Bar Italia, Al Stewart's Soho (Needless to Say) and Babyshambles' La Belle et la Bête, to name just a few. Adding Soho's appearances in film, literature, etc would begin to necessitate a whole separate article. And that's why I haven't tackled this yet! Russ London 00:42, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget Brecht's "Mack the Knife".

Two stanzas from a more faithful translation of Mack the Knife from the original German (tr. Manheim & Willett):

And the ghastly fire in Soho, Seven children at a go— In the crowd stands Mack the knife, but He's not asked and doesn't know.

And the child bride in her nightie, Whose assailant's still at large Violated in her slumbers— Mackie how much did you charge?

Aimulti (talk) 21:54, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I always thought the inclusion of this bit was written by the Chinese Restaurant itself as an advertisement as it seems wierd to include it over the many other mentions of Soho in music and media, and stranger too to have the photo of the Restaurant in the article!

Above unsigned

I beg to differ. This was more than just another Soho restaurant, LHF's was an icon of Soho's Chinatown to an entire generation. Both it's large size and 1,000 item menu made it rather special.

Aimulti (talk) 22:09, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Origin of the name 'Soho'
I'd like to see a source cited for the firm statements that the name is a shortening of 'Somerset House' and that the explanation of a derivation from a hunting cry is simply 'folklore'. Hunting certainly took place here in the late 16th century and Soho's name was first recorded in 1632 (admittedly as So Ho, but then Tally Ho was a similar hunting cry, rendered originally and now as two separate words) and first recordings of a name usually came some while after they had entered popular usage. Therefore, I'm not convinced by the dismissive remark that "by the time the name was in use, hunting had ceased in the area." As the article goes on to state, significant building did not begin in the area until after the 1660s.

Somerset House is (and was) some distance away and furthermore I'm unaware of any English tradition of orally abbreviating a name like 'Somerset House' to something like 'So Ho'. Houses might have been marked on maps as 'Such-and-such Ho.' but no one would have used the 'Ho' abbreviation in spoken English (let alone vocalised 'Somerset' as 'So'), which is what would have been necessary for the term to have taken hold. Immediately after the assertion that the name derives from 'Somerset House' a link is provided, but the (official) website in question makes no mention of the story that Somerset House gave its name to Soho.

The Oxford Dictionary of London Place Names is unequivocal in stating that Soho's name does derive from a hunting cry. In the absence of solid supporting evidence, the article should, at the very least, acknowledge a greater possibility of truth to the hunting cry explanation and a lesser degree of certainty to the Somerset House story. In fact, I'll wait a suitable period of time, and if no justification is forthcoming, I'll make the change myself.Russ London 00:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't look like any proof is coming mate Lfh 13:12, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Indeed, it doesn't look like any proof is coming, so I've rewritten the sentences on the derivation of the name. I've added three book references for the hunting cry explanation, and could have added another half dozen from books in my possession alone. I've also added one book reference for the Duke of Monmouth story but I've moved the http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=41023 link to the sentence on the hunting cry explanation, since the publication in question supports this primary explanation, rather than the Monmouth variant. I've left the Somerset House explanation there as a possible alternative, although no sources that I've consulted mention it at all. Russ London 22:30, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I've just noticed that back in January Grahamec removed the reference to the name being a possible abbreviation of Somerset House. I have no great objection to this deletion since (as I'd stated above) I think it was pretty spurious. However, he replaced this with an equally spurious story about the possibility that the name is a shortening of South Holborn. It's nonsense to say that the 'river in a hollow' that gave its name to Holborn was "a stream that used to flow near where High Holborn and its continuation, Oxford Street are today". The river that gave its name to Holborn was the Fleet, which flowed so far away from Soho as to have no possible connection with its name. Unless Grahamec or anyone else can cite any source for this 'proposal' I propose to remove it. Russ London 23:22, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


 * As I proposed back in June 2007, I have removed the suggestion that the name may be a shortening of 'South Holborn', in the absence of any supporting evidence. Russ London (talk) 10:42, 9 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The history of the name is given as South Holborn (with four references) but the only online references gives it as the hunting cry! Secretlondon (talk) 14:52, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

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"SoHo, New York"  Okay, waait a minute... Declaring that the SoHo area of New York City USA was named after the London SoHo may be a boo boo. My limited knowledge, mostly destroyed by the USA K-12 indoctrination system, prods me to state that New York's SoHo was named due to its geographical location in reference to street names. SoHo in New York references "south of Houston (street)" I believe. Somebody who knows the ins-and-outs of this Web cite may want to insert a "citation needed" after the mention in this paragraph under the "History" label; "he Soho name has been imitated by other entertainment and restaurant districts such as Soho, Hong Kong, SoHo, New York, and Palermo Soho, Buenos Aires. You are welcome. I bill by the hour so please remit 35 cents for my prufredding efforts. obbop 68.89.223.196 (talk) 16:55, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd love to hear a definitive verdict on this from a New York expert. The Wikipedia article on New York's SoHo says that the abbreviation (for south of Houston) was invented as recently as 1968 by a group of 'artists and activists'. What it doesn't say is whether, in inventing this name, they were influenced by the long existence of London's Soho as a bohemian quarter. It seems possible that they were, but by no means certain. Unless and until someone can confirm such an influence, I agree that it seems inappropriate to state in this article that the invention of New York's SoHo 'imitated' the name of the London district. Russ London (talk) 09:43, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Problems when talking about Gerrard Street in this article
I noticed that at the beginning of the article there is a note that says Soho is bordered to the South by Shaftesbury Avenue and then lower down inside the section 'soho today' Gerrard Street is mentioned as being inside Soho. You can't have it both ways I'm afraid and as a local resident I would say China Town is it's own 'district' and if anything would come inside the curtilage of Leicester Square.