Talk:Soma/Archive 1

Soma, Soma Chakra ( Amrita, Indu ) Nectar or Moon, Nectar of Immortality, Moon.....Above the Ajna Chakra and resides in the Sahasrara or seventh Chakra, above the third eye in the center of the forehead. Residing above the Soma Chakra is Kamadhenu (the wish-fulfilling cow) and three Nadis : Ambika, Lambika and Talika. The nectar is constantly seeping out of the Nirjhar Gupha, or Brahmar Gupha, the "Cave of The Bumblebee," the hollow space between the twin hemispheres of the brain. The natural course of Soma(Nectar) is to flow downward from Kamadhenu through the Chakras. When it reaches the Manipura Chakra, the third Chakra, it is burned by the fire energy of the solar plexus. Through Yoga, one can block the downward flow of this nectar (Amrita) by meditating on the eight-petaled lotus of the Kameshvara Chakra ( it also resides in the Sahasrara or seventh Chakra, above where Kamadhenu resides), and performing Khechari Mudra. Khechari Mudra enhances the upward flow of energy, enabling one to stay in the Brahma Randhra, the hollow space between the twin hemispheres known as the tenth gate of the body. Crossing the Soma Chakra takes the aspirant beyond worldly desires and gives him or her authority over the elements (Tattvatit). One who stops the downward flow of Nectar becomes immortal in the physical body. He or she enjoys eternal bliss through the union of Shiva and Shakti, the ultimate goal of Kundalini Yoga.

Why are the above 5 paragraphs not shown in the main Soma article? Granted, the statements need references to their sources, which I believe are not hard to find. I remember much of the above from a book by Harish Johari (Chakras) and from "Hatha Yoga Pradipika" as well as (if I remember well) from "Kundalini Samhita (?)". I find the above references - that Soma is found as a store or flow of liquid INSIDE the human body - very telling. In the sources indicated (especially the Hatha Yoga Pradipika) no reference is made to Soma as a manufactured drink or vegetation stimulant. I also know from that source, other sources and... personal experience that the inward flow of Soma is related to Khechari Mudra. The inward flow of Soma comes with experiences of deep bliss and notions or immortality (amrita - ambrosia) and is totally independant of external stimuli. The experience of internal soma is sometimes referred to as the nectar drop at the back cavity of the mouth above and behind the tongue. Could the person who wrote the above 5 paragraphs do some more work some more on it... I believe it is very worth while to then add it then to the main article. William vroman 18:41, 2 May 2006 (UTC)William Vroman

Cleanup
The first section of this article is quite confusing. Can it be written more like a disambiguation article, with one section devoted to the god, and another devoted to the drink? - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 20:25, Jun 17, 2004 (UTC)


 * the god and the drink are one and the same!

Merged Information
"Soma is associated with the warrior-god Indra, and Haoma appears to have been drunk before battle (i.e. in a situation where psychedelic tripping would be unadvisable). For these reasons, there are energizing plants as well as hallucinogenic plants among the candidates that have been suggested."

Just FYI cannabis was used by Zulu warriors before battle

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/case_zulu/clues.html

"warriors were given a cannabis (marijuana)-based snuff to take during battle. Analysis of the snuff has revealed that it contained extremely high levels of THC, a powerful hallucinogen, and yet no detectable levels of the chemicals that cause the sedative effects of marijuana."

More importantly why not link to this page? http://www.huxley.net/soma/

It documents recent archaelogical evidence that soma was a Ephedra/Cannabis/Opium mix.


 * done. thanks for the link! feel free to insert the zulu stuff yourself (here, or on zulu related articles). dab (&#5839;) 17:27, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Excellent Archaelogical Evidence update! I merged in a small snippet about the Zulu information, and included the pbs article as a reference.

fly agaric
well, yes, my idea that it is difficult to pound its stalks is that they would disintegrate after some minutes. We're talking about sitting down and pounding the stalks for hours, with stones. But I admit I haven't tried it myself. dab (&#5839;) 05:48, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Soma the medication
Soma is also the name of a prescription drug for muscle aches and pains (muscle relaxant).
 * that's on Soma (disambiguation).

as well as a major mentioned substance in the novel Brave New World, with a seemingly fictional reaction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.249.134.20 (talk • contribs)


 * and since Soma (Brave New World) is clearly derived from this Soma is seems absurd to probhit a brief mention of it on this page. --Henrygb 21:50, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 * nobody is "prohibiting" anything. If you check the edit history, it even used to be treated on this page altogether. I suggest you write a short statement about how Huxley came up with the idea. The intro is another thing altogether, I see no reason why Huxley's Soma should be mentioned in the intro of this article, when it has its own article, Soma (Brave New World). I'll put Huxley's Soma in the "see also" for now. dab (&#5839;) 22:04, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Definition of Soma, as in psychosomatic
I've been trying to find a definition of soma beyond '"soma" means body. This article makes no reference to that meaning except to mention a soma chakra. My sense is that Soma is an expanded vision of the body that includes esoteric energy systems, chakras, auras, etc. Does anyone have any suggestions about this?


 * "Soma" is just Greek for "body". Hence its use in words like "psychosomatic", etc. As far as I am aware, it is not related to the Vedic word. They simply sound the same. Paul B


 * Both Greek and Sanscrit are Indo-european languages.Pustelnik (talk) 00:36, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * indeed. we have Soma (disambiguation) for that, linked from the very first line on this article. dab (&#5839;) 08:03, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Haoma split
Fullstop, I am unsure about splitting of haoma, especially since you did not discuss it. It is important to treat the two variants comparatively, in the same article. Also, the article was not too long, so there was no reason to branch stuff out. dab (&#5839;) 08:02, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

SOMA: Evolution of a Sacrament
Soma was the spiritual ground of being that permeated all existence (analogous to the Greek "Logos" or the Eastern "Tao"). This spiritual substance flowed from the god Soma. The gods drank of this immortal substance. Within our bodies this Soma existed as a divine liquid. Soma manifested in a physical plant universally known as a spiritual and physical rejuvenant. As one reads the Rig Veda's it is evident this plant originally was neither hallucinogenic nor an intoxicant. Gernot C. Windfuhr says that Soma was a man shaped root and identifies it as the plant Ginseng. Ginseng had a symbolic connection with the celestial man (the constellation Orion) which has a precise parallel in Chinese lore. Ginseng has long been considered a mild medicinal stimulant. From the ancient temples of China to the woodlands of the American Indians Ginseng has, for centuries, been hailed in various cultures as a spiritual and physical rejuvenator. The Bible called it the "plant of reknown". It has been called "the sacred plant that hides from man" because of the difficulty in finding it. That which is most difficult to find always becomes the Holy Grail. A sacramental elixir was made that consisted of Ginseng, honey, and milk. This too was called Soma. Very early Ephedra was added to the elixir. Ginseng very quickly took second place in the elixir due to Ephedra's energizing effect being more pronounced then the mild adaptagen Ginseng. Ephedra very soon became the main plant Soma as well as the main plant in the elixir also called Soma. Sometimes a side effect of Ephedra is nervousness (or in some people an extreme agitation) which may have caused the priests to add a fermented wine, opium, and/or cannabis (archaeological finds in ancient temples reportedly discovered traces of Ephedra and opium in one instance and Ephedra and cannabis in another). The hallucinogen cannabis may have been the precursor to the adding of the hallucinogenic Psilocybin mushroom to the sacramental elixir. It is very evident in reading the Rig Veda's that the original Soma was not intoxicating. However, further into the Rig Veda's the nature of Soma changes. It promotes the feeling of immortality (Rig Veda, 8.48.3). Then it obtains the ability to take one into another world (Rig Veda, Book 9, Hymn CXlll, Soma Pavamana). So the sacramental Soma and it's properties evolved from the mild adaptigen energy of Ginseng and the mild focus stimulant of Ephedra through the intoxicants of alcohol and opium, to the hallucinogens of marijuana and the Magic Mushroom. The extremity of the final stage resulted in the main plant finally becoming the plant rhubarb which, as was the original plant Soma, a non intoxicant. To think as many do that one sole plant represented Soma throughout the ages is a gross misunderstanding of both religion and human nature. I have many references and sources to prove my above described theory but presently have neither the time nor space to present it here. At any rate the plant Soma, which has been so difficult to define, merely REPRESENTED the spiritual Soma that we are encouraged to pursue. I choose to call this the "logos". C W

^How can ephedra be soma when soma is always mentioned at being on the mountain-top when ephedra does not grow in mountains?
 * Since when? Ephedra only requires a fairly arid, fairly warm climate. If does not grow on the Everest, but it should be able to grow on top of any Himalaya or Hindu Kush foothill. It grows in mountaineous areas of Iran (as the lowlands are too arid usually). Dysmorodrepanis 03:49, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

If you read the above carefully you will find it is said that different plants were used at different time periods.

Ortography
This article needs severy copyedit of ortography. Note especially that botanical names are almost universally misspelled. Dysmorodrepanis 03:52, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

"Soma" in literature
In Aldous Huxley's dystopian novel Brave New World, "soma" is the drug commonly administered to the people of the futuristic society. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.170.64.137 (talk) 04:12, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Clarified the ephedrine/amphetamine comparison
Ephedrine is adrenergic(alpha, beta) while amphetamine is dopaminergic, forcing it to be released and inhibiting reuptake. They are not similar in any way, except for the structural resemblance. Amphetamine produces hallucinations in high doses while ephedrine in most circumstances does not(the cardio effects would kill you before you got there). Ephedrine produces strong aggression and blood pressure surges while amphetamine does it to a lesser and different extent due to release of dopamine/noradrenaline. If I should bet on a candidate for soma, it would probably be a mix of plants such as Ephedra and Papaver(opium), possibly others such as Cannabis. The combination of an opiate and ephedrine is synergistic from a warrior viewpoint in the sense it produces strong cardiovascular and psychological effects('speedball effect', possible capable of inducing a state of aggression, excitement and a feeling of invincibility. People in ancient times that knew how to prepare herbs would most likely know to blend these two for enhanced effect. But all this is speculation, we need a sample in order to know what was in it. Cannabis alone doesn't produce much of a 'warrior' effect, at least not when I watch my friends smoke it. Rather they appear stupid and apathetic(sorry guys) LOL M99 87.59.79.229 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:12, 18 July 2009 (UTC).

Etymology of Soma
The etymology of Vedic "Soma" as a loanword from Finno-Uralic has been proposed by a Baltic language philologist J. Pashka. He cites widespread existing Finno-Uralic examples - Volgaic Erzya, Mokša "Sjuma / Səma" hewn wooden trough, Estonian "Soim" hewn wooden manger, Khanty "Soma" mortar - which he contends were objects used in production of an Amanita muscaria beverage by the Ural Mountains. He also cites loanswords from a pre-Vedic Indo-Iranian language into many of the same Finno-Uralic languages (ie: Finnish "Kekri") which he correlates with archaeological data to support his proposed etymology of Vedic "Soma" from Finno-Uralic. In one of his books (Aramaic Gospels & Acts - Text and Translation), it mentions that he was formally schooled in Sanskrit at the University of Arizona. I found it by Googling "Soma" and "Uralic". It is a much better supported etymology of Vedic "Soma" than the one Wiki offers. To quote the proposal, "Indo-Aryan "Soma" preserved the native Uralic word for a hewn wooden trough that was used as the dried Fly Agaric (Amanita muscaria) was pressed with stones in water. (re: Khanty "Soma" )"- from ''Virdainas © 1994, 2nd Edition, by Jos. Pashka''. It is an interesting perspective. (Sudowite (talk) 15:51, 24 May 2010 (UTC))

Isn't this a hoax ?

 * In ancient times, Soma was pressed in almost every temple of the Deva kingdom, using the Linga (or Lingam), a heavy stone-mill. According to the legends, it was their only trump in the long conflict with the Asura. Big Soma factories like Vijayanagar (earlier Matanga) produced millions of doses in average 3-5 harvests per year. Soon Soma became an inner-political instrument. Statues and reliefs showing ingredients or the making of were destroyed, the recipe was hidden and only known to the highest Dravid priests.

Linga for pressing Soma? Trump? Soma factories? Recipe with the highest Dravid priests? Really? --117.204.89.149 (talk) 04:48, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Seems to be a hoax, without a reference. Thanks for pointing out. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 16:17, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Would like to hear from dab or rudra about its alcoholic properties. Manusmriti has it as a sacred or ritual drink. Did it acquire inebriating properties anywhere other than in white man's fancy? --117.204.94.3 (talk) 16:57, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

culprit -17:41, 1 June 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.204.94.3 (talk)

Oh dear, this was indeed a hoax. And it was left standing for more than a year. Well, we know that anyone can edit, so there is no way to avoid this sort of thing happening now and again.

-- My Ancestors hail from north western India (Saraswat) and I find that racist. There was a genocide of Dravidian at the hands of Aryans .This racism is omnipresent in myths via Asura.

I am a Saraswat and I do find the dravid customs bit offputing .But going this far to negate the argument on pure racism, not really called for ...=/

Back on topic I wonder is Bhang/Thandai related to Soma ?

As for "inebriating", I daresay Indra is pretty inebriated most of the time. I mean, RV 10.119? And passim? Alcohol is, of course, a sacred and ritual drink in many cultures, no contradiction there. The real question is that of the possible psychedelic qualities of Soma. It turns out there is very little evidence for that. --dab (𒁳) 20:34, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * But there is a contradiction when it comes to Manusmriti which forbids consumption of liquor as a mahapataka (great sin) for Brahmins while vesting with the privilege of drinking soma?-117.204.81.191 (talk) 01:45, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * [I'm not an expert.] There's not necessarily a contradiction. Hindu society evolved (and evolves), and the Manusmriti is from a later period than Vedic... and contrary to frequent claims, it is more of a (very idealised) descriptive document on the social conventions and ideals of its period, rather than laws for eternity. Also, from the description on these Wikipedia pages at least, Soma appears to have been a stimulant, not alcoholic. Finally, if there is a contradiction, well, so there is. :-) Shreevatsa (talk) 02:39, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * well, the theory is that soma-the-drink had as its main ingredient the juice or sap of soma-the-plant, apparently a stimulant, most likely Ephedra. Soma-the-drink may have had other ingredients, and may or may not have been fermented. The Manusmriti was written a full millennium after after the hymns about Indra and his soma high were composed. By then the Soma ritual had become completely ossified as a priestly ritual and was no longer an intoxicant for tribal warriors or the like. Any society changes beyond recognition over a millennium, even if there is a continuity of tradition. Compare, if you will, an Anglo-Saxon tribal warrior in the shield-wall of Byrhtnoth with a current-day member of the Queen's Guard with his weird bear-skin headgear. Continuity, yes. Similarity of context or purpose, hardly. --dab (𒁳) 21:35, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed; that's what I sort of meant, too. Shreevatsa (talk) 22:32, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Reorganized "Western Reception" section -- where to put Maharishi's TM-Sidhi ?
I found reference to Maharishi Mahesh's trancendental meditation-Sidhi Program in the "Western Reception" section. It was stuck in the middle of a bunch of references to fictional and musical accounts... i.e., it didn't belong there. It was logical and more clear to group "Literature and Music" references together in a sub-category. And it is important to put slightly expanded information on carisoprodol in a "Pharmaceutical Drug" category because many people turn to Wikipedia for drug information and this Soma page comes up first in all searches, as opposed to the 'disambiguation' of Soma where carisoprodol can be found... but many people would not find and/or follow through and/or know to search for. So this reorganization works well without compromising the Vedic theme of this Soma page.

But what to do with TM-Sidhi's concept of Soma? I can see how someone might consider Maharishi's efforts to not be genuine Vedic / Hindu topics and more of a "Western" thing, but does it really belong in "Western Reception?" He considered himself Vedic... e.g., his syncretic teachings on "Vedic Science". If this should be moved anywhere, it seems to belong in the "Vedic Soma" section... right? Lapabc (talk) 19:11, 22 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Put it in Contemporary Hinduism. &mdash; goethean &#2384; 19:14, 22 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Okay, makes sense to me... will do. Lapabc (talk) 20:55, 23 June 2010 (UTC)