Talk:Song dynasty/Archive 1

GDP

 * From a standard of living perspective, the GDP per capita Chinese under the Song Dynasty was about $600 in today's dollars. Western Europe had slowly declined from this level in 1 AD to $400 by 1000 AD. Western Europe started to become slightly wealthier than a stagnant China by 1300. By 1800, Western European GDP/capita reached three times that of a China entering a period of decline. And by 1900, the gap expanded to an eight-fold difference. During the height of Communism in the 1960s, GDP/capita in Europe was 16 times as great -- a trend that began to reverse sharply in the 1980s under China's open policy.

Isn't the indicated section a bit off the subject? --24.42.130.57 22:05, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

---

Why are the shihao all refered to as "too tedious"? That seems a trite excuse for laziness. Or did the emperors themselves find their names thus, and then never allow their selection? --Baixue 9 December 2005

Founder?
was the founder really who is named in the article or was it Zhao Kuangyin?
 * Zhao Kuangyin and Taizu of Song are the same person. --Nlu (talk) 04:55, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

where did this info come from?

 * "Accompanying this was the beginnings of what one might term the Chinese industrial revolution. For example the historian Robert Hartwell has estimated that per capita iron output rose sixfold between 806 and 1078, such that, by 1078 China was producing 125,000 "

i can not find this anywere else, where did it come from? — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Trekkie711 (talk • contribs) 03:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC).


 * Try www.staff.hum.ku.dk/dbwagner/SongAdmin/SongAdmin.pdf. --Gwern (contribs) 05:48 7 December 2006 (GMT)

Song Duzong
I'm confused why an article is not created for this emperor. Surely we don't want gaps in the chain. --CharlieHuang 18:03, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Create it then. That's what Wikipedia's for. Jesus Christ, people.--203.70.89.231 15:56, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

MAP
Please kindly be noted that Chinese never ruled Taiwan during the Song dynasty, so Taiwan should not be colored as part of it on map. The first Chinese administrative body was installed on ths island only after Manchurians conquered the Zheng Clan in 1683. ashinakhan 13:10, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * And you don't think the Zheng clan was Chinese? --Nlu (talk) 15:25, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't deliberately conflate ethnicity and political rule. Mainlander, right?--203.70.89.231 15:59, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The fact that you'd think so indicates how people who think like you view people who don't agree with you politically to all be enemies. --Nlu (talk)

--- Did the Southern Song themselves admit to being tributaries of the Jurchen? john k 05:51, 9 May 2005 (UTC)


 * That line ("Because Chinese diplomatic theory did not recognize relations between equal states, the Southern Song was technically a tributary state of the northern dynasty") doesn't seem to make sense to me either. In other words, how does the conclusion follow from the first part?  It needs more support; until then, I'm going to delete it. TresÁrboles 04:14, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Accidential deletion
I accidently deleted information as I was trying add more. Can anyone who knows how please restore the information I accidently deleted without deleting my additions? ludahai 魯大海 02:14, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Featured Article Status?
After editing the section for "China's First Standing Navy" and adding tons of art pics, this article is looking very, very good. In fact, I think so highly of it now that I think I'll request to have it as a featured article. Anyone object?

--PericlesofAthens 09:03, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Population question
As an editor who knows very little about this topic, I have trouble following this bit from the opening:

''Between the 10th and 11th centuries, the population of China doubled in size. This growth came about through expanded rice cultivation in central and southern China, along with the production of abundant food surpluses. Within its borders, the Northern Song Dynasty had a population of some 100 million people.''

The Northern Song is defined just below as lasting from 960–1127.. so I can't quite tell if the population figure of 100 million is before or after the population doubling. I reordered the sentences for some hoped for clarity, but it is still not quite clear, I think. Pfly 08:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the edits Pfly! And yes, during the Northern Song (actually starting from the early 10th century), the population did rise from 50 million to 100 million.--PericlesofAthens 14:07, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

GA Review
'''High quality prose, including proper spelling, grammar, and clear language. Also look for proper formatting and organization of the article, with appropriate use of wikilinks, sections, table of contents, and general organization as spelled out in the Manual of Style.''' There are some issues here. Good references, but they can be improved. I am a believer that each paragraph must have at least one reference (with the exception of the lead). There are some paragraphs that do not have any references. I have some issues here, they are disccused below. It is. No edit wars There is a problem with the licensing of the Liao Dynasty Guanyin. This image should probably be replaced. The rest of the images are good.
 * Like in the past articles, Needham's volumes need to have titles.
 * This sentance from the lead During the Song Dynasty, China's northern borders were threatened by the Khitans of the Liao Dynasty, the Tanguts of the Western Xia Dynasty, and the Jurchens of the Jin dynasty. must be moved or rewritten. It feels out of place in the context of the paragraph. Perhaps mentions that the Song dynasty as whole was constantly threatened from outside its borders to add some context which is sorely lacking in the lead
 * Adequate referencing, preferably with the use of either inline or Harvard citations 
 * 1st in founding of the song
 * 1st in partisans, and factions...
 * 1st and 3rd in 'From Northern Song...
 * 1st, 4th and 5th (the 4th and 5th paragraphs are too short as it stands, and should probably me merged) in Mongol invasion...
 * There is appropriate broadness of coverage of the topic 
 * The history section is too long. I would suggest cutting it down by a significant amount and spinning off a seperate article called History of the Song Dynasty
 * Normally length would not always be an issue here, but this article is already long as it is, and doesn't adequatly dedicate enough to the Society, culture, economy, and technology section. Ideally, the history section and the 'Society, culture... sections' should be roughly the same size. This can't always be achived but as it stands now, the history section comprises about 75% of the article, compared the 25% for the second part. The percentage should be no less than 60/40, in my opinion. The article is about the dynasty after all, and not just the history. Here are some suggestions on how to remdy this:
 * Printing should be expanded beyond one sentance, and perhaps even made into a section of its own. Consider discussing Bi Sheng and movable type printing (you can probably incorporate some of the text from the technology article), multi-colour printing (which began in 1107), as well as the social effects of printing on China. Printing contributed to the popularaziation of the examination system, as well as the rise of neo-confucianism.
 * I would also suggest spinning off gunpowder into its own section, as it was an extremely important innovation of the Song dynasty. You could probably just incorporate much of what has already been written in the Song technology article.
 * The architecture section merits a bit of expansion that can use text from the architecture article
 * Expand the economy section beyond just one paragraph. I would dedicate one paragraph to each of the following (all of which are written in the economy article), paper money, the Needham question, and trade
 * Neo-Confucianism should have its own section due to its prominence in this period, and its important during subsequent Chinese dynasties.
 * Finally, expand the culture section to incorporate more from the culture article
 * It is written from a neutral point of view.
 * It has not been the subject of recent editwars (check the history) 
 * If images are used, that they are free images, or if they are copyright, that their use is covered by Wikipedia's fair use guidelines
 * I looked at the image's talk page and it appears as though this issue has been resolved.Zeus1234 18:05, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Overall, it is a good article, but it still needs some work to achieve GA status. I will put it on hold for the time being to see if any work can be done to fix the deficits I have mentioned. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to ask. Zeus1234 05:33, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

After reading the spinoff articles about the Song dynasty, I am confident these changes can be easily applied, and would strongly recommend you also spin off a history article to make the history section here not as long.Zeus1234 15:31, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


 * One more thing that I should add. As there is now more emphasis on Song social history, the lead should also reflect this and incorporate more information about social history.Zeus1234 03:32, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I just noticed something else in the current revision that should be addressed. The new history section should be subdivided into two sections, Northern Song and Southern Song, as these were two distinct periods in the history of the dynasty.Zeus1234 03:49, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd like to point out that there are further image-related problems. --Iamunknown 03:50, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Such as?Zeus1234 04:25, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Alive Date
Is it really necessary to list the date when they are alive? for example: Tong Guan (1054-1126 AD) Su Shi (1037-1101 AD) Wang Anshi (1021-1086 AD)

Would it be better off if the date was deleted? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.24.135.38 (talk) 06:14, 1 May 2007 (UTC).
 * Yes, it is very important, especially since the Song Dynasty encompassed several different generations over more than 300 years. For example, you can see that the Neo-Confucian philosopher Cheng Yi (1033-1107) clearly lived before and influenced the philosopher Zhu Xi (1130-1200), and were not contemporaries in any sense. If the Song Dynasty was only 10 years long, yeah, I could see what you're saying. But the Song Dynasty encompassed 4 different centuries (of the Christian era).--PericlesofAthens 08:05, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


 * While I agreed it is useful in some cases to list the date, such as the reign of the emperor. However, I felt adding date to every single important official considerably decreased the readability of the article, making it more difficult for the reader enjoy the article. If the reader really want to find out when the person in question is alive couldn't they accomplish same thing by clicking on the link and read their biography? For example, in the article for Roman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire) there is no date appended to every single individual mentioned in the article. Forsake for readability, the dates should be deleted unless it is absolutely needed for the discussion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.24.135.38 (talk) 04:08, 2 May 2007 (UTC).

Lead
This article is currently around 20,000 characters, so the lead should be 2 to 3 paragraphs per WP:LEAD. Cliff smith 23:03, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

The conventional long name of the infobox
唐朝正式國號為「唐」，而非「大唐」. 元朝是中國史上第一個把「大」字加入正式國號的朝代. 參見明朝人朱國禎《涌幢小品》卷二「國號」條：「國號上加大字，始於胡元，我朝因之. ……其言大漢、大唐、大宋者，乃臣子及外夷尊稱之詞. 」. Same as Tang Dynasty, it explained that Song Dynasty's native name is "Song" but not "Great Song" or "The Song Dynasty" --Lmmnhn 08:49, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Image overlapping text
When I made the images default size, one of them now overlaps the text and I can't seem to fix it. . Very sorry to do that and sorry I cannot figure out how to fix it. Sincerely, Mattisse 01:58, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That's ok, it looks like user:Balthazarduju fixed that.--PericlesofAthens 08:14, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Lead
It bothers me that you have great detail about the social life (festival, clubs, games etc.) in the lead, but none of it is mentioned in the article. Could some the the last paragraph in the lead be wittled down and put under Society? Sincerely, Mattisse 01:58, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Good point, I will put that down there now.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 15:34, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

disambig
The following need disambig: clepsydra date grid Luohan pavilion postal service transparent Randomblue (talk) 19:05, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Fixed every one.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 19:42, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Another occurrence of Luohan and pavilion still need disambig. Also, pharmaceutical links to 'pharmaceutical company', which should maybe be corrected. Randomblue (talk) 22:17, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Done and done. Anything else?-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 04:49, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Things I'm not sure about/suggestions: The Jurchen -> the Jurchens Xian -> Xi'an gunpowder is linked 4 times, maybe a bit too much for such a basic notion Shen Kuo is linked 6 times pagoda tower -> pagoda

Randomblue (talk) 16:35, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah yes, one other thing, the picture descriptions which aren't proper sentences (i.e. no verb) should not have a dot at the end. Randomblue (talk) 16:37, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Population the article states that the population doubled between the 10th and 11th centuries. no time passed between these two centuries: one ended and another began. is the meaning that DURING these two centuries, ie, over two hundred years, the population doubled then the article should be changed. Daiyounger (talk) 18:59, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

White gap
Why is there a white gap next to the Song in the History of China table?--Countakeshi 07:42, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't see one. Can you try a different browser and see if same thing still happens?  (I use Safari.)  --Nlu (talk) 07:47, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I just got rid of it.--Countakeshi 07:52, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

I've read through the whole thing and I'm quite disappointed that Yue Fei (岳飛) wasn't mentioned at all. There should be at least one reference to this icon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.244.249.39 (talk) 05:02, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Hah! Apparently you didn't read hard enough. He's mentioned in the "Southern Song" sub-section of History in this article, and he is discussed at some length in History of the Song Dynasty. Is Yue Fei all you care about? Put things into a bigger 319-year perspective here.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 05:55, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Turk Bayan
I think M.Rossabi thinks the baarin was turkic clan. For me, I don't believe it, however, most nomads had common features. But scholars usually claim that they are one of Mongol clans of Alanghuo.--Enerelt (talk) 09:41, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Salt Monopoly?
This is an important topic. I thought the paragraph was useful, though perhaps too long for this article. Maybe there should be a full version of the paragraph moved to Economy of the Song Dynasty even though the significance is as much political, as shown in the references to Wang Anshi's reforms in the Society of the Song Dynasty article.

So should we ask to BZsupershot5to pare down the paragraph rather than delete it completely? There are references to the Salt Monopoly in the Tang Dynasty article and an article on the salt commission. A Wikipedia search "Salt Monopoly" got me a number of hits.

Time is not hanging heavy on my hands, but if nobody else starts one in a couple weeks, I might just establish a Salt Monopoly (China) stub in order to get the ball rolling. ch (talk) 16:29, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The first chief concern here should not be adding content or creating new articles, but gathering a list of credible sources that someone (maybe me) will gather, read, and research in order to take notes and then write a comprehensive paragraph or two in Economy of the Song Dynasty which summarizes all the material. This is the most scholarly and professional approach, while at the same time takes into consideration the article's existing size and size constraints (see WP:SIZE). I checked my university library catalogue and found nothing useful in regards to Song-era monopolized industries, let alone salt. I checked journal articles at JSTOR, and although that database seems to have some decent sources on Ming and Qing era salt production and administration, there are no articles which specifically tackle the Song-era salt industry. If my university library and JSTOR don't have any valuable information to offer, good luck to anyone else.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 18:20, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I think is impprtnt topic too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.78.32.186 (talk) 03:59, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Northern Song likely typo, please confirm
I made [|this edit] because "martial status" was very likely a typo for "marital status." Can you confirm if this is historically correct? If martial was in fact intended, perhaps it would be clearer to say something like "military position." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrevan (talk • contribs) 19:24, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It's fixed.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 19:29, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Only a Northern Song
George Harrison's song was about the Song Dynasty, I believe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.226.20.192 (talk) 06:47, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Nice try. Still, since Northern Song redirects to a section of this page, I wonder whether there should be a disambiguation link at the top of the section, to dab Only a Northern Song and Northern Songs:
 * For other uses, see Northern Song (disambiguation).
 * Or is this overkill? — sjorford++ 12:47, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Congratulations
Well done to all the editors who worked on this excellent article. Eusebeus (talk) 03:52, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. It was mostly little ole me. Lol. This is one of my older ones, actually. My newer featured articles are perhaps written to a higher standard. Anyways, thanks for taking an interest in this one. Cheers.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 04:07, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I love Chinese History, so I owe a debt of interest to your work on this article. Any plans to do the Three Kingdoms? I wouldn't mind giving it a go myself. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 09:06, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Echoed, a good article. SGGH ping! 11:39, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

PICTURE
The picture of the 'trebuchet' is actually the drum-odometer described beneath the trebuchet section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.8.250.47 (talk) 03:25, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Coinage
Northern Song Chinese coin (聖宋元寶).  Per Honor et Gloria  ✍  20:12, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Digital Gazetteer of the Song Dynasty
This database tracking demographic and political geographic change during the Song era is (finally) being publicly released (please take a look over at http://songgis.ucmercedlibrary.info for release notes and details), and I'd be happy to license any of the visualizations created, or create new visualizations based on the underlying data, for this or other Song-related wikipedia articles. You can get ahold of me on my user page or by looking up my contact information. Elijahmeeks (talk) 03:31, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Removal // Royal House infobox
The infobox shown over on the right in this section was removed by Lonelydarksky:

The justification provided in the edit summary being that the edit was made by a suspected sockpuppet. Now, I don't know if this editor is a sock or not, or, in fact, anything about the situation, but this seems to be a genuinely constructive edit. Has there been some discussion elsewhere about the use of this infobox in articles on the dynasties of Imperial China that has rejected the use of this infobox? If not, I would advocate restoring this (though probably not in the same exact same place) to the article; the information it contains is accurate (though the link for deposition should be to Mongol conquest of the Song Dynasty and not straight to Yuan Dynasty). siafu (talk) 17:54, 9 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The sockpuppet has been confirmed (see here). The banned user, Yongle the Great, has been repeatedly attempting to evade the ban by sockpuppetry. All his edits, regardless of whether they're constructive or not, should be reverted per WP:BAN. I've no objections to restoring the removed information, provided that it's not done by a sockpuppet of the banned user. Lonelydarksky (暗無天日)  contact me (聯絡) 13:09, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Area significant digits
I cannot figure out how to edit the box titled "Song" at the right of the page, but the areas (especially the last one, where 2,000,000 sq km is converted to 772,204 sq mi) have a ridiculously high number of significant digits. 140.247.12.169 (talk) 23:08, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Asking for All Dating to be fitted with BC and AD... such as (Anno Domini) or (Before Christ)
Each date should have BC or AD, its very confusing when the writers leave this out of Wikipedia pages.82.38.160.13 (talk) 23:49, 8 February 2014 (UTC)ved


 * Make it BCE and CE.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   08:04, 9 February 2014 (UTC)


 * See WP:ERA for why we should do neither of these. Quote: 'BC and AD are the traditional ways of referring to this era. BCE and CE are common in some scholarly texts and religious writings. Either convention may be appropriate.' and, 'Do not change the established era style in an article unless there are reasons specific to its content.' and, 'Do not use CE or AD unless the date or century would be ambiguous without it (e.g. "The Norman Conquest took place in 1066" not 1066 CE nor AD 1066). On the other hand, "Plotinus was a philosopher living at the end of the 3rd century AD" will avoid unnecessary confusion. Also, in "He did not become king until 55 CE" the era marker makes it clear that "55" does not refer to his age. Alternatively, "He did not become king until the year 55."' Rincewind42 (talk) 13:50, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Han Dynasty which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 13:28, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

About the map
I doubt that using a population map or whatever is suitable for an article about ancient countries...--Alvin Lee 13:47, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
 * If the data come from reliable sources, of course it is. HammerFilmFan (talk) 01:43, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Origin of the name "Song"
To add to article: what "Song" means (for example, "Ming," the name of the following dynasty, means "shining"). 173.89.236.187 (talk) 18:29, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
 * 宋 is defined in most dictionaries as "a dynasty" and also "a surname". It's not clear what Song means. The Ming was deliberately named by its leadership; not all names have that kind of meaning. Ogress smash! 18:49, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
 * It doesn't have a meaning other than as the name of the dynasty and as a (still current) surname, although it is used as a homophone for phon, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the dynasty. Philg88 ♦talk 19:19, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Like many dynasties before the Yuan, "Song" is geographical, named after Songzhou where the founding emperor served as jiedushi. _dk (talk) 22:25, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

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Really 959?
Why does the heading for Northern Song say it began in 959 when most reference works say it began in 960, and nowhere in this article does it state what happened in 959? 173.89.236.187 (talk) 17:27, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Reverted edit using material from a book published by the "Feminist Press", undue weight, possibly anachronistic
I recently reverted an edit here by someone who added a massive amount of new material to this article, a featured article. There are several issues with this latest edit. For starters, there was absolutely no discussion on the talk page beforehand about adding a huge amount of material primarily using one source: Mow, Jie, an Bijun's Holding up Half the Sky: Chinese Women Past, Present, and Future (2004). Although I believe this edit was in good faith, I believe using this one source for all of this material is not only giving it undue weight, but I must call into question the reliability of a source that is published by a self-proclaimed "Feminist Press" (indeed, I can already see several academic publications in Society of the Song dynasty that can be used to refute this newly added material). Jacques Gernet (1962) is used for that small section about daily life in this article because his work is recognized by the scholarly community and international sinologists as a landmark work in that field. Mow, Jie, and Bijun's work isn't exactly brand new, but it does not hold the same importance. Furthermore, their work sticks to one subject: women and women's issues. Mind you, women's issues are only given a small amount of space in this article (see the second paragraph of the beginning of the "Society and Culture" section). However, they are covered extensively in the separate article Society of the Song dynasty. I would advise whoever made this edit to shift this material and their focus there. The main article for the Song dynasty is long enough as it is for a featured article on such a sweeping topic. Adding a bunch of information on women's issues is not going to improve the article; it could very well skew it and introduce an unnecessary, misleading bias that might give the readers the impression that Song society was far more progressive than it actually was. Sincerely, the guy who nominated this article (and the other Song dynasty articles) for its FA status. ;) Pericles of Athens  Talk 23:58, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Another reason why I reverted this edit that I forgot to mention: the page ranges are far too big and the same citation for these are overused. For instance, you cited several times in a row page ranges "17-31" and "123-141". That's generally not how we cite things on Wikipedia, although it is acceptable to do that in one instance without multiple similar citations (i.e. same page range). Specific page numbers for each sentence must be given. It seems as though these are the page ranges for entire chapters, which is an unacceptable method of citation. People seeking to refer to your book or simply crosscheck your references to see if your edits are accurately reflecting the source material shouldn't have to hunt for these individual claims across twenty to thirty different pages. Speaking of citations, you also broke with the accepted citation format of the article: Template:Sfn (utilizing the Harvard style). Pericles of Athens  Talk 00:14, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Image glut
The number of images and infoboxes on this page is causing formatting problems. The History of China template at the top pushes seven images out of alignment on a laptop screen, causing a train wreck in the Southern Song section. I've moved images down to make them look better on a large screen, but if more images and maps continue to be added, we will need to resort to a gallery. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 23:41, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I think something more radical is needed – this is a top-importance featured article. Images need to be relevant to the sections they are in, and we need to reduce their number, selecting the most appropriate for each section, and moving the rest to subarticles.  Kanguole 09:54, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Get the templates to the bottom. But a gallery may need to be added. I don't agree with applying "Images need to be relevant to the sections they are in" very strictly - this principle is a classic cause of poor layout on WP Johnbod (talk) 14:43, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
 * It would help if someone would create a collapsible version of the enormous "History of China" infobox, which seems to be pushing images down and sandwiching the text between images. As for galleries, I think you guys are going a bit overboard. There aren't that many images in the article; not enough to warrant a gallery. For that matter, a gallery must be justified in the first place as being valuable and demonstrating something that is directly described in that particular section of the article. As for strictly applying the rule of images having to be 100% relevant to the section they are located in, I'm also against that. IMO, so long as they are images relevant to the Song dynasty, they can stay. I do appreciate User:Kanguole's moving of a large, recently-added map to the sub-article Society of the Song dynasty instead. Perhaps one or two more images should also be moved to sub-articles, but don't be too zealous about it. There's really no need for it. -- Pericles of Athens  Talk 15:12, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

first sentence "coincided with the Liao and Western Xia dynasties"
Why mention only these 2 and not the Dali Kingdom, Lý dynasty, and Jurchen Jin dynasty? Also I cannot believe there's not a single mention of Later Zhou anywhere in the article. Can you imagine the Jin dynasty (265–420) not mentioning Cao Wei at all? Timmyshin (talk) 04:41, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
 * thanks for bringing this to my attention. In regards to the Later Zhou, I think what happened was that this statement somehow got removed or garbled once it got transferred to my sub article History of the Song dynasty, which explains Song Taizu's usurpation and conquest of China in the first paragraph of the "Founding of the Song" section. As for the Jurchen Jin dynasty, I see no problem here since it is mentioned prominently in the very next paragraph where it is properly contextualized with the transition from Northern to Southern Song. Perhaps the Dali Kingdom should be mentioned, but I'm not sure if I'd compare the Lý dynasty with the Western Xia and Liao dynasty. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aside from the fact that the Lý dynasty ruled over northern Vietnam and did not exist within the country we know as China, it did not present itself as a Chinese style dynasty in the same way that the Western Xia and Liao dynasties did (regardless of their Tangut and Khitan ruling houses, respectively). At the very least the Lý dynasty is mentioned in the history section of the article. Regards, -- Pericles of Athens  Talk 08:03, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
 * "China" and "Vietnam" are modern concepts, and history in any country is usually written to suit the government's perspective—but on en.wiki we should present unbiased content, and at that time Lý dynasty was exactly what Western Xia and Liao was to Song—a neighboring foreign country. Xia and Liao did play a relatively bigger role in (Northern) Song dynasty history, but Lý and Song also fought several times (both also fought against Nong Zhigao). What defines a "Chinese style dynasty"? From what I know Lý dynasty used Chinese language exclusively in government (unlike Western Xia and Liao which both used a unique script) and used the Chinese imperial examination system which appeared to be more comprehensive than either Western Xia and Liao (see Confucian court examination system in Vietnam; Liao dynasty examination system was only used to fill offices in its southern territory bordering Song and Goryeo, and Western Xia did not begin civil service exam until the 1140s, much later than Lý dynasty). There are also (questionable) sources claiming the first Lý dynasty emperor was a Song dynasty immigrant—in any case, my suggestion is to remove this part altogether from the lede, or at least mention them in the context of wars with Song like the Jin dynasty. The articles Liao–Song Wars, Sino-Tangut War, Lý-Song War should all be created at some point, I may give them a try this year if I have the time and resources. (Song's short war with the Former Lê dynasty was covered in Battle of Bạch Đằng (981).) Timmyshin (talk) 10:34, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
 * About Later Zhou, I think the "Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms" on the bottom of the infobox should be replaced, like how the Jin dynasty (265–420) infobox shows Cao Wei and Eastern Wu (and not Three Kingdoms), and the Sui dynasty infobox showing Northern Zhou and Chen dynasty (and not Southern and Northern dynasties). For the Song dynasty, I would put the predecessors as Later Zhou, Southern Tang, Southern Han, Later Shu, Jingnan, Wuyue and Northern Han; Hunan (Wuping Circuit) and southern Fujian (Qingyuan Circuit) may be added. Timmyshin (talk) 11:01, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Hi again. You make a good point about the Ly dynasty, but you could make the same argument for the Goryeo kingdom of Korea, which upheld a Confucian government and society, or even contemporary Heian period/Kamakura period Japan. Therefore it's probably safer to avoid some arbitrary listing of neighboring states with similar cultures and institutions, and just contextualize them appropriately as you suggest and how the lead section already mentions the Jin dynasty. You are free to do whatever you like to the infobox, I could care less. I'm only concerned about the main body of text and the quality of the images. -- Pericles of Athens  Talk 16:44, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

New changes to the lead reverted
I have recently reverted new good faith edits and changes to the lead section. There were several reasons why I felt the need to do so. Firstly, this is a Featured article, and thus is held to higher standards than most other articles. Significant changes to the lead section, especially if those changes are not related to summarizing material already found in the body of the article, should be discussed on the talk page first.

Although the new material included a citation from a scholarly source (i.e. the journal of Population Studies), it is a significantly dated source (i.e. published in 1960) compared to the one you replaced without consultation (i.e. Veeck, Pannell, Smith, and Huang, 2007, published by Rowman & Littlefield, an academic publisher). The lead section is already wordy enough as it is and has become somewhat bloated since the article was nominated for featured status. We should be trimming it if anything, not adding new material. That is most certainly the case for new material that goes beyond the scope of the body of the article. It would be okay if you edited one of the related sub-articles, such as Society of the Song dynasty, with input from this source by John Durand.

The prose you added was generally okay, but simply not good enough for the standards of a featured article. For instance, your awkward hanging sentence: "This data is found in the Standard Histories". This is the sort of detail that is more suited to the body of the article, not the lead. If you would still like to make changes to the article, please, let us hash it out here first and see if we can include Durand's input in a small, single sentence, not several of them. The paragraph that you greatly expanded already covers a number of subjects, so expanding on any one of them makes it harder for the reader to digest. This is ultimately what the body of the article is for. We could also compromise by moving Durand's input into a footnote.

Regards, -- Pericles of Athens  Talk 04:23, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

population comparison
The article states: "For example it has been estimated that Hangzhou had more than 400,000 inhabitants by 1200: far larger than any European city;" But Constantinople states that estimates of Constantinople's population range from 100,000 to 500,000. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shauncutts (talk • contribs) 20:36, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Kaifeng/Beijing
The second paragraph of the article states, "the Song capital was in the northern city of Beijing(now Kaifeng)." The page for Kaifeng lists several names that the city has been known as, but none of those is Beijing. This needs clarification or correction. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 14:30, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I believe Xijin on this map is the modern-day Beijing. It seems, however, to be depicted as built on top of a river island. Beijing is not to my knowledge on one of those. Is it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.70.120.26 (talk) 17:51, 30 October 2013 (UTC)


 * the Song capital was in the northern city of Bianjing (now Kaifeng).it was a mistake,the name is Bianjing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 重庆蒋坤 (talk • contribs) 04:47, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Forest defence
It is interesting to know that Song use man-made forest as defense against Liao cavalry.I heard other stories about their innovate military strategy of changing the landscape(e.g flooding lowland and make it into a lake as obstacle for their enemy) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 重庆蒋坤 (talk • contribs) 05:02, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Dairy products in Song dynasty
the understanding that “dairy products were rare in Chinese cuisine at this time” is not correct. In the Song dynasty, the specialized agency for managing dairy products had been established, in charge of the management of dairy animals and the manufacture of dairy products, such as butter and cheese (different from the modern western butter and cheese). Besides the court, common people also ate dairy products, as dietary therapy, especially for elderly people to supply blood and benefit heart. The development of dairy products in the Song dynasty also influenced Japan, which started the dairy industry in Japan. if anyone wants to comment on these changes, please let me know on this Talk Page or on my Talk Page. --Xuanzli (talk) 03:29, 19 October 2019 (UTC)