Talk:Sonic Youth/Archive 1

Origins
I edited the "Origins" section a bit, and I think it still needs a little more cleaning.

a 'little' more cleaning? Edson was in the band before Renaldo that's common knowledge. Renaldo came in to replace Ann DeMarinis (although they don't play the same instruments don't bother pointing it out I know I know) this information is even in the liner notes of the recent reissue of their first EP

Master Dik
I haven't found any mention of this EP. Of course it should have its own article, but also should appear in the thing at the bottom of every SY article, but I don't know how to edit that. It is especially notable because the songs haven't been re-released. --MM 01:53, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Holy Toy/WHEN influence
I added that Thurston was inspired by Holy Toy, one of the original post punk bands. If you don't know who this is, do a google search. They released a song called "Down in Japan" and "Panzers and Rabbits". Their drummer/organist is Lars Pedersen WHEN. Just because you've never heard of them dosen't mean the information is viable.

Um i think that picture is of pre-shelley sonic youth because, that doesn't look like steve shelley. Anyway we should have a picture of Sonic youth in all their guises and i think Jim O-rourke is now a permanent member of the band, after all he is credited on their website and the liner notes of Sonic Nurse. and the discography should be a seperate page. y'know..

Added mention of Mats Gustafsson colab Hidros 3 (To Patti Smith). Any body want to write the article, I don't have it so I wouldn't have the best insight.JohnRussell 05:18, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh well. There was SYs shot at glory and fame, but you kind of get the impression from some things the members write, like Thurston, that when they wrestle with their souls about fame and glory, they try to not get too famous and glorified.

There was/is a great deal of pressure in America to destroy oneself, physically, spiritually, emotionally, whatever. In my humble opinion the independence, stability, and self respect of the people in Sonic Youth gave out some parcel of hope that there was another way of living life.... On the other hand, they are just a music band made of normal people with normal things on their mind like everyone else... but maybe that gave fans even more hope?  Intersting sentiments but, alas, not encyclopaedic... or neutral.. sjc

hey SJC thanks for editing, i wrote that stuff back in like 2002/2003 before wikipedia was anything famous, i was bored out of my mind at this job where i sat at a desk for like 5 hours waiting on about 2 people per day, staring at a wall with a only computer in front of me for distraction. thanks for cleaning up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.185.250.195 (talk) 03:38, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

hey sjc, thanks for editing it... i just wanted to see something about SY in here and hope that others would see it, get inspired, and make it better. i am no expert on them or on music. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sammy snake (talk • contribs) 20:20, 3 October 2001 (UTC) --- Need an explanation for "whatever unsuccessful things their parents tried in the 1960s and 1970s"...too vague...Do you mean what "liberal" parents were doing?

thurston's father was an avant-garde composer or artist, i believe. there's more info about that in the opening section of "goodbye 20th century." Mocba! (talk) 02:37, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe O'Rourke is now the bassist for SY and not a guitarist, so I've changed it, If i'm wrong feel free to adjust it. Greg Godwin

Moved from the article:
 * Plus some more (i think four) syr albums that had numbers as titles (SYR1 etc)((Added by JeMoR))

Needs some fact checking. --Lexor 08:35, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Added in the SYR series, and a couple of other releases that were missing -- generica

Moved this from article, and is out of place in an article on a band, unless part of a much larger section on Generation X, at the very least it needs NPOVing, as it currently reads it's merely personal opinion. --Lexor|Talk 14:57, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Moore and Gordon's long-term marriage was seen by some members of Generation X as a model of stable family life not based on either the "family values" of adherents of Ronald Reagan, nor on whatever unsuccessful things their parents had tried in the 1960s and 1970s.

Added a picture
Hey guys I added a pic of them. I hope its good

Rene
 * What is the copyright status? If you don't add it, then the picture may be deleted in the future. Sonic Mew 17:52, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

Jim O'Rourke plays bass / who plays what in general
Jim O'Rourke is not just a bassist, he plays guitar and keyboards too. I've seen them live -- Kim Gordon plays bass most of the time, but ever since 1995's "Washing Machine" she became fond of the guitar, so they sometimes play with no bass at all. Their sound is so weird anyway, that the occasional absence of a bass-line can't hurt it - if anything, it can just make it even more special. --Amire80 09:49, 2005 Mar 20 (UTC)

I think it might be helpful if someone added a list of the members of the band and their instruments in the opening paragraph. That's actually all I care to know right now and I don't want to have to hunt through the whole article to find it out. I would venture to say there are others like me.. Floorsheim 10:15, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Mike Watt?
Er, Major props to Mike Watt and all that, but is it really appropriate to put his template on a Sonic Youth page? Or on Lee and Thurston's pages for that matter? It makes them seem like a footnote to Mike Watt. I might go as far as to say a SY templete ought to be created. Sadangel 06:13, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Where's my Jimmy?
Why is Jim O'Rourke not listen in the intro as part of the band? He became a permanent member of Sonic Youth since Murray Street.207.157.121.50 21:15, 25 October 2005 (UTC)mightyafrowhitey
 * Jim quit sometime earlier this year (2005) . --FDIS 02:55, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

DIRTY BOOTS
I want to say that you forget to add EP "DIRTY BOOTS"


 * I'll work on it soon, I have a copy with me. Johnsorc 02:31, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

hi there editors
i was one of the original writers of this article back before wikipedia was a cool hot potato, like in 2002-2003. i was thinking back on what i wrote, and damn, it was awful. i hope someone came a long and deleted most of it and rewrote it. because im too scared to look at the original article and erase all the horrible stuff i wrote in it. lol. oh well. sorry everyone.

i actually cant rmemeber much of what i wrote, another reason i dont want to go editing, because i might delete some good stuff that someone else wrote accidentally. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.185.250.195 (talk) 03:35, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Sonic Youth album pages
Looking over the main article and the album pages, I noticed that often the main article has more to say about the album than the album's own page. That seems odd; shouldn't the album pages be where you'd go for more detail on the albums? So I've copied (not cut) and pasted the main article remarks on the albums from Sister (I think) to Goo, and then massaged the info in. I didn't delete anything from the main article, though maybe I will (or someone should) take a look and see if there's anything there that could be just on the album page; cutting won't lose any information, because it's all duplicated on the album pages (except perhaps some POV I cut). A certain amount of redundancy is OK, I think. Nareek 04:22, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Punk
The whole thing with Sonic Youth labeling themselves "punk" is that, well, everyone in the 80s underground did that, from Beat Happening to Fugazi to Big Black to the Pixies and beyond. It's not necessarily that any of the 80s alternative bands sounded like punk, but rather that they felt their approach to music was in the same vein as earlier punk artists. As Our Band Could be Your Life demonstrates, people in the American indie underground tended to view punk more as an idea rather than a set musical form. Although for the purposes of this article, they should be labeled simply alternative rock. WesleyDodds 13:14, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Punk is much more an idea than a music style. Sex Pistols and Green Day are not the embodiment of punk for all i know.
 * Don't take me as a representative of the whole Sonic Youth fandom, but i strongly prefer the term "punk" to "alternative rock" in almost all contexts, especially when we're talking about SY. "Alternative rock" is a gray area between punk/indie and cleverly marketed AOR - and i don't like grey areas. Grey areas are bad for encyclopedias too - and here we are trying to write one.
 * More importantly, i think that SY themselves prefer the term Punk, although i voluntarily label it as Fact - i'm quite sure that i heard them saying it somewhere, but i don't remember where.--Amir E. Aharoni 21:28, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * sonic youth labeling themselves as punk is rather irrelevant. it's common knowledge that they aren't. they are most certainly a member of the musical generation that started in the eighties and is directly indebted to punk, yet moved beyond it's musical restraints (<NOTE!), which is properly called "alternative rock". there is a difference between punk and alternative rock. nevermind the bastardization of the term, because it is the only one that really fits here. Joeyramoney 21:22, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * sonic youth were in their 30s in the 80s
 * there is a big difference between punk and alternative rock. that's why they have seperate articles. 67.172.61.222 00:33, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Alternative is the spawn of punk. Just a late 80s way of saying post-punk. You can call Joy Division alternative if you want, it's alright. Everything from Bauhaus to Sonic Youth to Pixies to Fugazi to My Bloody Valentine is alternative. Different, but without one there is no other.

Movies
Hey thanks everybody who wrote this article. Sonic Youth definatly needed a Wikipedia article. Anyway, I started a little list of movies that they have released. I only listed 2 cuz those are the only ones I know of currently. It would be cool if people could try to add to this list so I could find some more SY videos. I think they're making a pre-DGC music video collection. I don't know if thats out yet or not. Anyway, thanx again for this article.--Nate 15:34, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Links to full albums (Rather Ripped)
As much as I hate, hate, hate the DMCA, it's pretty clear that posting a link to a full album prior to its release date is a big federal "DON'T". There are plenty of other sites out there to get leaked albums, so let's keep them off of wikipedia. I would prefer not to have to revert the page a third time for this problem.--Evilbatman 19:43, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

"Awkward" Phrasing
"In the early years of the 21st century, Sonic Youth has found a following in the community of neo-jam band fans." The early years of the 21st century, huh? That's... very... exciting language. MKV 05:58, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Washing Machine
Isn't "Washing Machine" the turning point in SY's career? There is a tremendous departure from the late 80s/early 90s material with this album (although there is some resemblance to earlier songs like "Xpressway" and "kotton krown")... I recall hearing on MTV at the time the album came out that the band was seriously considering changing its name from Sonic Youth to Washing Machine. All of SY's subsequent material is rooted in the developments to the band made to their sound with the Washing Machine album, and they finally achieved mastery in the studio (for an otherwise "noise" approach).--MM 04:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree, it should get more of a mention in the article JohnRussell 14:02, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that "A Thousand Leaves" is closer to a stylistical turning point. Think about it: Since ATL they released an album every two years in the spring and they were all in a similar style (with NYCG&F being a bit of an exception, but still quite close).
 * Washing Machine is an album i love - it is the first SY album i bought, before i knew Sister, DN, EVOL etc. A strong rock album, uncompromising and passionate. Even throwaways like Panty Lies and No Queen Blues have their charm. I see it as a big "fuck-you", a way of telling Geffen after three "pop" albums - "Enough - don't expect us to be a Nirvana or a Soundgarden". So in a way it might have been a perceptional turning point ... or something.
 * Unfortunately, all of the above is my original research, so i can't write it in the article :) --Amir E. Aharoni 19:49, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * That statement is a matter of opinion, and maybe that should go on the page for Washing Machine, not the main entry. Great album, though.  Chris Berry 19:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Whitey Album
There is no concrete mention of this album. I know it was not as important in the annals of alternative music history, but being that SY *IS* an important band, and they crafted such visionary "alternative" music ("alternative to alternative?"), I am often left wondering what the face of either alternative or hiphop would have been, had the "Whitey Album" been more successful. I would write about this myself, but I don't have a firm knowledge of the history of hip-hop and beatboxing.--MM 04:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Is there a mention other than in concrete? Wikipedia isn't the place for speculation about the influence an album may have had had it been succesful, unless you could find a source which asserted this. Hyacinth 09:44, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Subjectivity?
"On Daydream Nation, they had perfected their style, becoming virtuosic sculptors of guitar noise that could unfold with nearly symphonic grandeur."

While I and most SY fans would agree with this, wouldn't it be better to site a respected reviewer for a quote rather than having a wikipedian try his/her hand at record reviewing? Seems like something that should definitely be removed if this is really featured article material. I'm sure there are plenty of people who would listen to this album and hear drugged out noise that would not fit at all with their definitions of "symphonic grandeur." Troublesleeping 23:31, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Pigfucker
Is there a source for the "pigfucker" label? I'm uneasy with the implication that that led to "I killed christgau..." I've read Moore's 1983 letter to the editor in the VV as well as the preceding Picarella review, and neither of these deal directly with "pigfucker." Also, the Foege interviews (for the Confusion is Next book) doesn't seem to mention "pigfucker," although I might have missed it. I could add in a little bit about the Voice covereage of SY in the early 1980s, but I didn't want to change the "pigfucker" bit it if I'm missing some significant evidence. Maybe this is in the Azerrad? I wish that book had sources more clearly laid out! --Cpomeara 21:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * it's a christgau term. he used it for pussy galore, swans, sy. any noisy band that came to ny. it's in his book. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.110.223 (talk) 15:24, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Live/bootleg section
I find the the live/bootleg section trivial. It is too much information and not necessary information. Besides, I think not-copyrighted work shouldn't be on a page like this.--Soetermans 22:05, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Mark Ibold
I just came here via the Pavement (band) article, because it said that Mark Ibold was now playing with Sonic Youth. This article also states as much. So, why isn't he listed as a current member? Is there a distinction being made that I can't find here on the talk page? Later today I'll add him at the beginning of this article in the current member list if no one has any objections. Thanks. --luckymustard 12:56, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I would look into it more (sources other than another wikipedia page). Maybe he is a touring member? The recent album had the 'classic' lineup. JohnRussell 14:09, 28 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Yes, "touring member".  I searched Google News and all articles said on tour, and one said they will remain a quartet when recording.  Again, thank you for your feedback.  --luckymustard 14:22, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, touring, I've seen him live with them - 211.30.231.112 07:56, 13 November 2007 (UTC) (ZEROpumpkins)

Yeah, so who added him into all these pages? He's a touring member!24.200.159.33 (talk) 09:09, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

GA Re-Review and In-line citations
Members of the WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 02:29, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Repetiton...
While I understand that the information might be reasonably placed in both sections, the text in the "Influences / Side Projects" section and the introductory paragraphs are virtually the same. Edits needed.

album photo gallery
i set up an album photo gallery set, bringing it along the lines of other major bands

i listed the major releases, the first album from 82 (some consider it an EP based upon the length, while most including the band themselves consider it an album, not an EP) and Goodbye 20th Century aka SYR4.

I left the old list below it, i wasn't sure how to go about the next step, either it should be merged to the discography page, or if the releases i listed above it should be deleted, while the other full length albums should stay on the front page —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pantophobia (talk • contribs) 02:56, 11 January 2007 (UTC).

Fans
I noticed these three lines stuck rather awkwardly in the 2000s section, so I placed them in their own section. When is a list of fans appropriate in a band article? Are there any guidelines? I am tempted to delete the entire section as just an unwarranted attempt to provide extra links to the "famous" fans. --Bejnar 08:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * At 18:51, 15 January 2007 Nareek deleted the Fan section saying: (→Fans - --removing section that adds little)
 * At 19:26, 16 January 2007 IP editor 68.4.215.252 inserted the Fan section back into a paragraph in section ==2000s==.
 * I deleted the out-of-place sentence in accordance with Nareek. If there is some justification for a fans section, please talk about it here first.  --Bejnar 03:06, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Fair use image
Removed the Simpson image using the following rationale: Objections to Wikipedia's policy should be registered on WP:FUC's talk page. Objections (if any) to this particular application of WP:FUC should be listed below. Rklawton 00:55, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) The Simpson's image is fair use.
 * 2) It's use in this article is not specifically justified on the image's page (as required by policy).
 * 3) The thread about this on Wikipedia talk:Fair use makes it clear that the only defenders of uses such as this one fundamentally disagree with Wikipedia's pillar #3, in short, they disagree with a hard and fast policy.  They should wait until (and if) they are able to change this policy before adding this image back to this article.
 * 4) The image itself is trivial to this article - as noted by the fact that it is included in the "Trivia" section of this article.
 * 5) Wikipedia's attorney has asked us to minimize fair-use image usage.
 * 6) A suitable compromise can be reached by simply including a link to the relevant Simpson's episode where the image can already be found.

Beatnik in intro.
I was going to change the link to beat generation because it's more in depth, but this article is big and giving me problems when I try to edit from the top. Maybe someone could change it, or discuss any objections to a change. maxcap 02:26, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm going to completely revamp the lead section soon, so don't worry about it. It may not even be there when I'm done with it.  WesleyDodds 22:17, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Art music
The main editor who controlls art music is deleting art rock from that article. I totally disagree. Can someone who agrees with me, help me? I wrote on the art music discussion page:

Sonic Youth for instance
Hello Frederick, I don't understand where you are talking about. Sonic Youth for instance is heavily using scordatura, free improvisation, minimal musical instrumental composition, following the microtonal patterns of Glenn Branca and are mainly influenced by proto punk AND art music created after 1945 (they did a 2000 tour covering John Cage, Morton Feldman, Steve Reich). What makes you think they are just following their instinct? I think your definition is discriminating and far too selective. SY isn't coming from a popular tradition (They were involved with the No wave scene, the opposite of being popular). If Art music is only for classical music, this definition must be deleted from wikipedia because of it's subjectivity.Houtlijm 17:44, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Hullabalooza The pardoy festival in The Simpsons was called 'Hullabalooza', not 'Homerpalooza'. Couldn't let that go. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.152.188.237 (talk) 12:10, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

FAC nomination
I have removed this from the list of WP:FACs. To "Initiate the nomination", you need to click on the link in the FAC nomination template. You need to create the page and then put it back on the WP:FAC page. I will watch this page, so leave any questions or problems that you have here. Hope this helps. Thanks Woodym555 22:28, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I have now removed the fac template from the top of the page. If you wish to nominate the article, then by all means do so again. Any questions can be left on my talk page. Woodym555 08:04, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Lack of Pictures of Renaldo and Shelly
How come there are no pictures of Lee Renaldo or Steve Shelly? The whole article is filled with pictures of Gordon and Moore. -24.239.162.108 (talk) 07:22, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

so add some. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.110.223 (talk) 16:47, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

MY NAME IS ARISTOTELES YOURS? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.49.197.109 (talk) 19:24, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Sonic Youth's alternate tunings
I doubt we need a separate article on the subject; the present article is mostly unsourced and claims Sonic Youth were the band with the "most extreme approach" to tuning. Most of the valuable information is in Sonic Youth already. What do others think? CloudNine (talk) 18:09, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. NSR 77  T C  20:36, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Redirected for now. CloudNine (talk) 11:59, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

New section for pop culture references to SY?
The other day's new addition re: Juno seems out of place in the Recent events section; it's not really anything that they did themselves (is it? I haven't seen Juno yet.). Perhaps a new section could be created for references to SY in movies and whatnot. Putting a character in a SY t-shirt has long been a simple way to quickly establish him or her as a certain type of hipster (Seth Rogen's "Dirty" tee in The 40 Year-Old Virgin, for example); the band's Simpsons appearance is probably the best example of their increased cultural profile as of the mid-90s. I'm not saying it would necessarily be a worthy addition to the article, but a short section discussing that type of stuff could probably be cobbled together without too much trouble. Is it worth adding? If not, the Juno stuff should probably be dropped altogether in order to keep the History section focused on the band's own activities. Any thoughts? Augustus Chip (talk) 03:09, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Triva sections are to be avoided on Wikipedia and that is what pop culture reference sections really are, just limited in subject matter. I believe that if you can integrate it into the article in a coherent manner then it is more than appropriate.
 * Think about it as a newspaper article on SY, they may include a couple of pop culture references in a paragraph discussing SY's influence, but they would not include a list of four hundred pop culture references to SY. Hyacinth (talk) 20:32, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Contemporary music project
Indopug, the contemporary music project is what the template said on this page before you removed it: "a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of contemporary music subjects". I'm adding a link to contemporary music, but you could have also gone to WikiProject Contemporary music. Given that you don't know what the project is, what is your argument that Sonic Youth does not fall within it's scope? Hyacinth (talk) 20:27, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I thought it was too general a group, (like the article itself says) "any music being written in the present day". The project banner's description should probably include how contemporary music actually implies experimental/art music. All the same, were Sonic Youth ever that experimental as some of the modern-classical composers listed under the coverage of the wikiproject? I don't think so; alternative rock seems like a good enough umbrella term to describe them. indopug (talk) 21:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The Contemporary Music project actually refers to "Contemporary Classical music", so it doesn't belong here. WesleyDodds (talk) 21:44, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

No Wave
Says Sonic Youth is a No Wave musician on that page. Thus No Wave should be added to the list of genres. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gmags2003 (talk • contribs) 13:37, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia clones are not reliable sources
In July i added a few "citation needed" and "original research" tags. None of the information i tagged this way appears wrong to me - it is probably correct, but it needs a source.

Recently all of them were replaced by URL's, however i found that informationdelight.info and pit5.com are clones of Wikipedia and therefore are not reliable sources for verification.

Furthermore, the Spin review of Sonic Nurse is good enough as a source for the fact the Arthur Doyle song is about Mariah Carey, but not for the reason the title was changed.

If anyone does think that the info that i tagged is likely wrong, feel free to remove it completely. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 16:07, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Chipwich stand
The chipwich stand source does not state that he ran a chipwich stand, and it was not in 1981-1982. The source said it contained a picture of him manning a chipwich stand from 1984, and so I removed the sentence and link. If you know of any better sources then feel free to let me know. --Banime (talk) 22:22, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Simpsons Sonic Youth.jpg
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