Talk:Sonja de Lennart

Response
Sonja de Lennart created the Capri Collection (which includes the Capri Skirt, Capri Blouse, Capri Belt, Capri Hat, and Capri Pants); and in 1948, famous actresses were photographed with the first Capri Pants and Skirt (as seen on Sonja de Lennart’s website).

Meanwhile, (quote) "In 1949, Pucci presented at that time his first totally black and white sport collection.” By the end of the 1950s, he sold (like so many others) Capri Pants.

This is history.

Pchip (talk) 03:36, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Serious issues with this article
There are serious problems with this article. The article is absolutely not neutral, and therefore violates WP:NPOV. There are absolutely no reliable sources in the article, so the notability of the article subject can not be verified. Finally, the tone of the article is not encyclopedic, and appears to be written in a friendly tone indicative of someone close to the article subject. Unless these things are addressed soon, this article will be nominated for deletion. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 06:17, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment to Watchers
To all watchers of this article: I fully understand that the style/tone needs updating, that reliable and credible source references need to be added (which have been added with more to come), and that in-text citations also need to be added, etc. I am actively working at updating all these situations during all available time. Therefore, I ask for your patience and fairness and allow me appropriate "time" to update all that is necessary and according to standards. Thank you. Pchip (talk) 11:17, 25 July 2008 (UTC)


 * As long as you are actively working on the issues, there is no reason to worry. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:55, 25 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you so much for your understanding. It is with appreciation. Pchip (talk) 00:48, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

removed some talk page content
I removed some talk page content from here. That's a pretty drastic step, something that we don't normally do, but I think it will be relatively uncontroversial here. The first section removed was a copy of a message left on User talk:JimRicefortheHall's talk page. It had only tangential relationship to this article, and was really directed at the user himself. As a courtesy, especially since he has been blocked and is unable to respond here, I've removed it from this page (the original is still on his user talk page). The second section removed was a jumbled set of statements from someone claiming to be one of the de Lennarts, a copied statement from myself, and a question involving capital letters. It was confusing, had parts that bordered on legal threats, and was difficult to read. For the sake of preventing a WP:NLT issue, especially now that the article is in better shape than it was 20 days ago, I've taken the step of removing that section as well. These removals were done for the general readability and utility of this page. If someone objects to them, they may feel free to revert me; however I would hope there is no need to do so, and any questions can be directed to my talk page. Thanks. &rArr;  SWAT Jester    Son of the Defender  05:53, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Removal of "Publications" section
I removed this section, which consisted solely of the bulleted items below, because the layout guideline doesn't authorize this. Specifically, the links below seem to be a mix of on-line links (should be either in External links section, if meeting WP:EL criteria) and off-line links (should be in a "Further reading" section, if meeting the criteria at WP:GTL.

I'm guessing that most of these articles simply mention Sonja de Lennart in a single sentence. A brief mention in no way, shape, or form justifies a listing of a source in a Wikipedia article; Wikipedia is not intended to be the equivalent of a Google search, and, per WP:NOT, it's not a directory or indiscriminate collection of information. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 16:57, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, please note the problem (see next section) of citing anything published after 5 February 2008. -- John Broughton  (♫♫) 17:04, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The State (South California) Life and Style: "Capris: Hot or Not?"  27 August 2008
 * The Boston Globe, 06/29/2008, “Ancient Capri Still Casts Its Powerful Spell”
 * Chicago Tribune Capris, In the year of the dress, this summer staple endures, 06 July 2008
 * The Seattle Times 30 June 2008, Living, “They are Now a Guy Thing”
 * The Daily Freeman, New York, 01/18/2006, "Life"
 * Jasmin Magazine, Number 12/69, 06/09/69, "What Fashion Designers Think If They Create These Dresses"
 * Fashion Pakistan (Fashion Articles, “History of Capri Pants,” 19 March 2008)
 * ABC News Trend Test: Will Capri Pants for Men Take Off?
 * The Daily Herald Trend Spotting: Capri pants…..on guys?
 * Steve Dahl Show 07 July 2008, 6:14
 * Florida Today “Will Capri Pants for Men Take Off” 25 June 2008
 * The Sentinel 25 June 2008, Will Capri Pants for Men Take Off?
 * International Business Digest Magazine July/August 1969, 10S229ENG79/89, printed in Switzerland (page: Cover story) “Designs for Tomorrow’s Living”
 * Jasmin Magazine 25/69, December 8, 1969 B8489D p. 181, 182 “If a Woman Reveals Immediately Everything”
 * AZ Abendzeitung July 6/7 1968, B1017A “Beauty loves Bikini”
 * Madame Magazine, September 1971, B4579E (cover story) “Fashion”
 * SZ Newspaper Sueddeutsche Zeitung, 28 August 1959 [SZ # 206] ”Fashion Show---Eye Candy for Chubbies"
 * AZ Abendzeitung, B1017A, 19. August 1955,  "A household name of international fashion design....For 20 years Sonja worked as fashion designer in inland and foreign countries"
 * Neue Revue Magazine 12/69, 23 March 1969  C5156C, p. 11, “Model Design”
 * Neue Revue Magazine 10/69, March 9, 1969 C8124
 * BZ (Bildzeitung), C8495A 23 November 1967 “Lill in Leather”
 * BZ, C8495A, December 1, 1969, #279 “After One Year”
 * Jasmin Magazine 26/69, 12/22/69  B8489, p. 29, “From once a young girl becomes a young woman”
 * Freundin Magazine  8/69,  8 April 1969  3Z3875C, p. 44, 45, 46, 47 “The Summer of the Transparent Girls”
 * Diners Club Magazine, October 68, p. 21, “Shopping”
 * Bunte Magazine 9/69, 26 February 1969, 3Z2013C, p. 82, 86, “It was at the Bal Pare”
 * Freudin Magazine 12/17/1968, 26/68, 3Z3875D, p. 8, “Coin Bolero”
 * Bunte Magazine 13/69, 26 March 1969, 3Z2013C,  p 112, 114 “To the Point, Darling!”
 * TZ (Tageszeitung) 23 May 1969, #123, B1961m, p 16, “Summer 1969”
 * Jasmin Magazine 1/70, 01/05/1970 B8489D, “This Lady Wears Cocktail Dresses”
 * AZ, 16/17, August 1969, B1017A, “For Young People”
 * AZ, June 8, 1970, B1017A, “Fashion in a Leap”
 * Epoca Magazine, 11/1967, “Skins of People from Today: Leather”
 * Brigitte w/Constanze Magazine, 12/70, C1940D, 2 June 1970, p. 4, “Summer Wear Colorfully Embroidered”
 * AZ October 7, 1971, B1017A, p. 2 “Combining: Imagination Thing”
 * AZ, November 20, 1969, B1017A, “We Can Do It Just Like [professional] Models.”
 * AZ March 2, 1970 B1017 “In Rhombus-Look to Africa”
 * SZ Newspaper, October 22, 1971  #253, “A Portion Jungle”
 * Jasmin Magazine 8/70, April 13, 1970, B8489D, p. 14 “Mini, Midi, Maxi”
 * AZ Newspaper #202, B1017A, September 2, 1969 “Totally Private”
 * Freundin Magazine, June 17, 1969, 13/69,  3Z3875D, “Wishes to the Summer”
 * Freundin Magazine, July 1, 1969, 3 Z3875D, 14/69, p. 72, “Saucy Fashion”
 * Freundin Magazine, July 29, 1969, 3Z3875D, 16/69, “Wanderlust Fashion: When you dream sometimes, your name would be Anushka…”
 * Eltern Magazine, 12/69, Dec 1, 1969, B606E, “For the Mothers”
 * Freundin Magazine 13 – June 9, 1970, 3Z3875D, page 46, “Pack into the Holiday Suitcase: Ministripes, Little Dots Dresses”
 * Jasmin Magazine, 10/70-May 11, 1970, B8489D, p 77, “Boutique for Two”
 * Jasmin Magazine, 11/70-25, May 70, B8489D, p. 76-79, “Embroidered, Smoked, and Rejuvenated”
 * Jasmin Magazine, B8489D, [July 1970] p, 48-53  “The Seven Things Over the Bikini”
 * Jasmin Magazine, 9/70, 27 April 1970 B8489D, “He who finds contrasts engaging, can carry quietly sometimes mini, sometimes Maxi”
 * Jasmin Magazine, 12/70, 8 June 1970, B 8489D, p 56-59, “That’s Why Men Always Look at Legs”
 * Jasmin Magazine, 9/7, 23 April 1971, B8489D, p 80,81, “The New Dresses for the Summer”
 * AZ B1017A,2 March 1970, "Totally Private"
 * AZ B1017A,20/21 June 1970, "Totally Private"
 * AZ B1017A,26 May 1970, "Totally Private"
 * AZ B1017A,15 May 1970, "Totally Private"
 * AZ B1017A,30 April/1 May 1970, #99, "Totally Private"
 * Freundin Magazine, 17/70, 4 Aug 70 3Z3875D, “This Should Be a Drifting Sand Dune? Doesn’t Move a Bit!”
 * Freundin Magazine, 16/70, 21 July 1970 3Z3875, p. 30, “It’s called ticking, does look like that. But it’s Jersey!”
 * Freundin Magazine, 22/71, 22 October 1971, 3Z3875D, cover story, “Romantic: The New Fashion Style”
 * Freundin Magazine, 25/69, 24 November 1970, 3Z3875D, “The Most Beautiful New Winter Coats”
 * Jasmin Magazine, 25/70, 7 Dec 1970, B8489D “Summer Look 1970”
 * Jasmin Magazine, B8489D, 28/70, 9 November 1970, p. 136, “Dresses for the Most Beautiful Parties”
 * Sueddeutsche Zeitung 5/6 Dec 1970 #291, “Feature: The Runway”
 * AZ Newspaper, B1017A, February 7/8, 1955 “A Fashion Advice”
 * AZ, B1017A, 23 July 1969, p.20, “Festive models before Florentine Fresco”
 * Petra Magazine, “Folklore”
 * Freundin, 3Z3875D, 25. November 1969, “How Beautiful Cocktail Dresses Can Be”
 * The Daily Herald Living: Trend Spotting: “Capri pants……..on guys?” 7 July 2008
 * Telegraph Journal “Will Capri pants for men be embraced?” 19 July 2008
 * AOL Australia Lifestyle: “Will Capri pants for men take off?” 25 June 2008
 * The Amherst Daily News – News from the Canadian Press Metrosexual Trend Test: “Will Capri pants for men take off?” 25 June 2008
 * The Star Press Trend Test: “Will Capri pants for men take off?” 5 July 2008
 * The Honolulu Advertiser Fashion: “Uh-huh, Capri pants just for men” 3 July 2008
 * AOL New Zealand Lifestyle: “Will Capri pants for men take off?” 25 June 2008
 * Lubbock Avalanche Journal Living: “Capri pants a new look for men” 28 June 2008
 * Asbury Park Press – New Jersey Trend Test: “Will Capri pants for men take off?” 27 June 2008
 * AOL Canada Life & Style: “Should This Man Be Wearing Capris?”  24 June 2008
 * The Telegraph Herald Taking the Trend Test: Will Capri pants for men take off?” 01 July 2008
 * The Indianapolis Star “Wearing capris is a breeze for this guy”  24 July 2008
 * The Fifties (Fashionsourcebooks), Paperback Publishing, 07.18.2003 "www.was-ist-was.de"
 * http://www.wasistwas.de/sport-kultur/alle-artikel/artikel/link//462cb9e5d0/article/die-caprihose-modisches-highlight-der-50er-jahre.html

Timeline
The first version of this article was on 5 February 2008. Given that newspapers and magazines often copy (without acknowledgment) from Wikipedia, it would be good to make sure that any reliable sources cited with regard to who created the Capri pants were published before February 5, 2008. Citing something published after that date is much more problematical. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 17:02, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Pucci Statement from March 4, 2009
OK, will do. Also, I would like to cite a Pucci Statement from March 4, 2009 addressed to New York Times (Quote New York Times: "We finally heard back from Pucci representatives who in fact agree that Pucci is NOT credited with the capri pants.") What are the Wikipedia guidelines for documents such as this? thanks.--Roboray (talk) 10:33, 20 May 2009 (UTC)


 * If you're quoting the New York Times, you need to provide a link. Or a page number and the date of the edition that you're quoting.  Information used for Wikipedia articles must be verifiable.  -- John Broughton  (♫♫) 13:04, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Hello John
Hello John, I’m working on the article page site and have a question in regard to your statement "..with regard to who created the Capri pants." Because we spoke with major German publishers and European historians about how something like this (Pucci being credited with Sonja de Lennart's work) could happen in the first place. The publisher said: "American historians invented Pucci as the creator of the Capri pants, most likely mixing up selling with creating; and, as time went on, others copied this false claim."

There was no Internet in the 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, and even late into the 1980s that would have helped to discover this information quickly; thus, Sonja de Lennart/her company was unaware that this other designer, Pucci, would be celebrated in the U.S. for her work.

Therefore, this bizarre story about “the website" (a defamer fabricated a fictitious story and sold it as a fact by using criminal words), which is a defamation campaign invented and circulated, which is now in the hands of authorities, is based on these false claims. However, the fact is, this website was created upon the advice of a professor of highly-respected European historian of an equally highly-respected university, who said: "You should create a website to set the record straight. It's a shame that American historians falsely credited Pucci with something he personally never pretended... "

Coming back to the New York Times document. We don't know what issue New York Times has with Sonja de Lennart. Perhaps it's her nationality or her well-known industrial family or the fact that they want to protect American historians/authors and their books that have been published over the years and supported by New York Times. In any event, they cited this bizarre (website) story from this anonymous defamer (who don't even have the courage to reveal their identity), and contacted Pucci—obviously "sure" that they would smash the true inventor of the Capri pants with Pucci.

But, of course, Pucci representatives had to admit to the truth. This is why New York Times wrote in their Email from March 4, 2009, "We finally heard back from Pucci representatives who, in fact, agree that Pucci is NOT credited with the Capri pants." We are quoting from an authentic Email—a document we received from New York Times on March 4, 2009, which is verifiable and which occurred because a small group defamed a great designer whose invention became bigger than life — and that is why Sonja de Lennart, now 89 years old is being forced into this position of defending her place in history. And THIS is not right. That is why we will defend her good name, her work of a lifetime, and the unique talent that secured her place in history.

However, there is one point which I don't understand and would like to discuss with you before posting the reliable sources: Why should a significant designer be limited to only one of her creations, the Capri pants? The fact is, in 1945, Sonja de Lennart created the Capri skirt, Capri blouse, Capri belt, and Capri hat (Empress Soraya was one who purchased the hat) and in 1948, she added the Capri pants. These items were already famous before the Capri pants became THE fashion icon. [The notion "Capri pants” was the name of the item! She couldn't possibly have known when she gave her collection the “Capri” name how big it was going to be.] Yet, as a very successful designer, each year she created new collections and other significant items and created collections for movies, operas, etc. from 1945 to the 1970s. Unfortunately, at the end of the 1970s, her career was interrupted due to (well-known) private reasons.

That the Capri pants had its renaissance in the 2000s is another story. And it is just Sonja de Lennart's natural right to be celebrated for something that rarely any other fashion designer accomplished (yet almost every designer profited from her genius and made millions).

Therefore, please let me know how we could post the New York Times document and (since this is the Sonja de Lennart Wiki site) how we could present (for the sake of fairness) her work in its entirety and not only one single fashion item that made history thanks to her unique talent. Thank you!--RoboRay (talk) 23:13, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Please tone down the POV rhetoric. It's obvious you have some sort of stake in this issue on the side of Lennart. You've already been told what you need to do to get the information put into the article: provide a link to the New York Times article where this information was presented. Once you do that, then the information can be added. We can not take you at your word that there was some mysterious message received by the NYT about it. It's not verifiable unless someone can verify it. Please provide a link. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 17:11, 14 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, why aren't you using your Pchip account? There's no reason to use two different accounts when editing an article. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 17:14, 14 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Ninjahoe, I'm puzzled! Why should I use somebody else's account?! WE have the letter from New York Times, nobody else does!  Certainly not Chip.  We did NOT ask you to take our word, we asked John how we should put a link to this DOCUMENT! There is nothing mysterious about this document, just tell me how we should do it to "link" this document to your site, or wherever you want it to be.  "Mysterious" are only people who are using faked addresses like the defamors, who are using "spam@yahoo.com"  as their "address"(this matter is now in the hands of European authorities, who are very tough when it comes to people who destroy people's reputation and work of a lifetime and exercise character assassination).  You are one of the best editors (of what I read), but now you are taking sides with those who are defaming a distinguished, accomplished and established designer who happen to invent/design the Capri Collection while Pucci had his "black phase." That American historians made a mistake is NOT our problem. European historians can't believe that something like this (Pucci being credited with Sonja de Lennart's work) could happen in the first place. Therefore, I ask you kindly to be factual as you usually were and to let me know how I can get this document to you Thank you. RoboRay--RoboRay (talk) 20:09, 14 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Please don't make personal attacks by modifying my name. The reason I asked why you weren't using your Pchip account was because the way you two write is practically identical. Your glowing adoration of Lennart is practically identical, as well. I'm not taking any side here, but rather telling you what you need to do to get this alleged new information into the article. If it's a letter from the New York Times, you need to have them send a copy of it to permissions-en (at) wikimedia.org to my (Nihonjoe) attention. Please note that they need to send it so we can verify that it came from them. Once we have that, we can then look into the actual content of the letter and whether it will be useful to the article.


 * As for whose problem it is, Wikipedia republishes verifiable information, so unless you can provide verification of your claim, the information is not going to be placed into the article. This (again) is not about taking sides, but about verifying the claims you are making. Additionally, if you can provide links to articles showing that European historians "can't believe that something like this could happen in the first place", we can add that, as well. This isn't an "us versus them" situation; rather it's a "we have verified reliable sources providing information and are therefore using them" situation. Provide the verifiable sources, and we'll go from there. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:47, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Apologies
Dear Nihonjoe, I am so sorry! I didn't mean to attack you, to the contrary [in my language it means powerful, and that's how I consider your work and your Wikipedia page]. I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive an old Professor who was so flustered because of the word 'mysterious'in regard to a legitimate document from New York Times that I even misspelled your name. Again, I apologize wholeheartedly. Yes, I will reply on the Talk: Sonja de Lennart page to keep the conversation in one place. Could you nevertheless be kind enough to give me answer to my recent/previous question? Thank you, Ray--RoboRay —Preceding unsigned comment added by RoboRay (talk][[Special:Contributions/RoboRay|contribs) 02:30, 9 August 2009 (UTC) --RoboRay (talk) 04:35, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Re: Orphan
Hi Tim, thanks for editing my contribution. Please let me know how many links do you expect to be added so that the 'orphan' tag could be removed. Also, the biography was (originally) accepted by Wikipedia editors. I checked with other biographies and realized that all of them are written like that. If somebody went through traumatic events (or whatever it is) it is (in my mind) part of a biography. Please advise. Thanks! RoboRay--RoboRay (talk) 18:44, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Per WP:Orphan, you need three articles linking to it in article space, excluding dab pages, redirects, and the like. So far there's only one page that fits the requirement. I'm not quite sure about what you are talking about in the second part of your comment, as I did not seem to have changed any part of the biography. I've read the article and the talk page discussions, and if that's what you are referring to, then my personal view is that the article does indeed sounds overly positive. So I would recommend reading WP:NPOV and WP:V before going further. In addition, since it seems that you have a conflict of interest, please also read the COI guidelines (WP:COI). Tim Song (talk) 23:08, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Dear Tim Song, Thank you very much for your detailed answer, that's very kind of you. Now, I'm facing a problem: Sonja de Lennart was huge in the 1940s, 1950s, 1960s and 1970s (before she discontinued her work because of known reasons)--but back then there was no Internet and no 'links' the way we know it today, which means, I put the correct link to the correct newspaper/magazine articles, who archived the mentioned articles 'on paper' and can be obtained by anyone at any time--but, as I said, on paper! This doesn't make articles any less reliable or valuable. Also, the articles in major lexicas, like The Great Brockhaus (Bertelsmann) or Meyer's Lexikon discontinued their 'online publication' in order to sell books. That's why I eliminated the link to their previous 'online publications' with the complete article about Sonja de Lennart and her invention of the Capri Collection (skirt, blouse, hat, belt, worn by Audrey Hepburn in Roman Holiday) and, of course, Capri pants. Therefore, please let me know what you want me to do. Thank you very much!! Last but not least, I don't understand what you mean by I had a 'conflict of interest.' I am a Professor of History, and I'm helping because a group used Sonja de Lennart's daughter and the respected inventor of the famous Capri pants for their purpose to go after Wikipedia. Therefore, please be so kind and explain so that I can do what needs to be done. Thank you!! --RoboRay (talk) 22:59, 26 August 2009 (UTC)--RoboRay (talk) 23:02, 26 August 2009 (UTC)--RoboRay (talk) 23:07, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your very professional answer!
Okay I see. I thought that, since you claimed that no one but you have a copy of something, this might be a COI case. Glad to know that I'm mistaken. Paper sources are fine as long as you provide the necessary citations. There's normally no need to upload a copy, which, as pointed out on the article's talk page, raises substantial copyright problems. Many Wikipedians are librarians who are more than qualified to verify the source's existence, should it become necessary. Our reliable sources guideline requires reliable, third-party, published sources, not sources published online. Tim Song (talk) 23:51, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Hello Tim, thank you so much for your very professional answer! I will continue to do the best for the site and hope I may contact you if I have further questions. all the best--RoboRay (talk) 21:12, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Capri pants contradictory information
Elsewhere on Wikipedia, Capri pants are credited to Bunny Roger. The only functional source on this page about the history is a link to Sonja's own site. Does that count as a reliable source? I'm unsure. The other sources are all broken links. Am I allowed to delete them? Not sure what the guidelines are here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cynicalparakeet (talk • contribs) 16:15, 18 December 2017 (UTC)