Talk:Sonny with a Chance/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 01:28, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

I'll take this nomination. You can expect initial comments within a few days. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 01:28, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Now for the infobox and lead:

Infobox

 * I couldn't find this show's logo in the file source used for File:Sonnywithachance-logo.png. You'll need to implement a different link.
 * I have added a new link containing the logo.

Lead

 * Surprised there's no mention of other main cast members within the lead. Yes, I do know Demi played the lead role (after whom the show is named), but it feels incomplete to only list one name.
 * Have added the other actors' names in the lead, but please let me know if more detail is required.


 * For the note regarding pronouns, let's not leave out they/them as these are still used along with she/her
 * Done.


 * "made-for-television film" can be trimmed to simply "television film"
 * Done.


 * As shocked as I was to see barely any reviews for the show during a search of my own (more on that later), I don't see how that has anything to do with viewership, so the "but" from "but did not receive wide critical coverage" feels off
 * Have separated these clauses.

Other sections will follow in the future. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 13:26, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Done. Thank you for taking on the review. SatDis (talk) 06:32, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
 * No problem, and now for more.....

Premise

 * While I don't see any copyright issues with File:Demi Lovato 2009 (Cropped).jpg as it was derived from the approved File:DemiLovatoApr09.jpg, you might be better off moving it to "Characters" which discusses the cast, and simply giving a year in the caption doesn't feel helpful
 * Have moved and added to the caption. I was only able to write "2009" to avoid the image carrying over to the next section.
 * You could use a parenthetical like "(pictured in 2009)" for this now that it's been moved, and a helpful code to prevent such leaks is (place it at the bottom of the section)
 * Thank you for the tip! Done.


 * "imperfections" and "quirky" don't feel like appropriate tone, even though I completely understand what you're trying to say
 * Have changed to "difficulties" and "eccentric".
 * I wouldn't recommend using "eccentric" either and it can safely be cut altogether SNUGGUMS (talk / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 03:03, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Removed.


 * This might come off as a nitpick when MOS:TVPLOT says the show itself can be used as a source for basic plot descriptions, but it feels odd to back up everything except for the part of Tawni's jealousy being why she's mean to the title character (yes I checked the references used and it just mentions her being "self-absorbed", with "self-centered" being an acceptable synonym)
 * I can't seem to find a reliable reference for this information - if it is a problem I can just remove "as a result of her jealousy" and keep "who is unkind to Sonny".
 * No objections to that <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 03:03, 18 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Try not to have super-short paragraphs that are only a sentence or two long. It makes the flow of text feel choppy. Either expand on the second one or merge this into the first.
 * Have merged to the first.


 * Per WP:REPCITE, you don't need to use the same citation more than once consecutively within a paragraph, meaning ref#3 only needs to be used at the end of "a drama series which stars the teen idol Chad Dylan Cooper"
 * Fixed.

Characters

 * It feels incomplete to have Sonny's credit uncited here while the other cast members all have sources attached to them. Common knowledge or not, I would add one for the main character or you could have something at the top/bottom with "Credits adapted from _______" with the ref attached at the end since they all seem to use the same one. You can look at Home Alone or Saving Mr. Banks for examples of what I mean.
 * I have added the "credits adapted from".


 * See my above comments on "quirky"
 * Fixed.

I'll let you work through these before getting to the "Production" section. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 16:01, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks the above has been addressed. SatDis (talk) 01:47, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Of course, and follow-ups have been provided. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 03:03, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Done. SatDis (talk) 03:23, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Development

 * Gary Marsh says "following your dream" in singular form, not the plural "dreams", also the use of "cited" from "cited the idea" reads awkwardly.
 * Fixed singular and changed to "identified".


 * Los Angeles Times is only speculating of the "chance" referring to a "chance of rain", also it doesn't use "sunny with a chance of rain" in the quote form that you've implemented here. Another working title for this I found was Welcome to Holliwood and believe that along with Sonny being temporarily renamed to Holli are worth a mention (which came in between Welcome to Mollywood and the final name).
 * Have changed to The Los Angeles Times's Robert Lloyd speculated that the final title, Sonny with a Chance, makes reference to the phrase "chance of rain".. Have also detailed Holliwood and "Holli" down in the casting section.


 * I don't see how the details on The Fairly OddParents, All That, The Amanda Show, or That's So Raven are relevent here. Regardless, there's more WP:REPCITE; it's safe to remove refs#1 and 2 from the "written for and produced cartoons including The Fairly OddParents" bit and after this the second paragraph only need to re-use ref#2 for the Michael Feldman part
 * Have removed The Fairly OddParents, The Amanda Show, and That's So Raven, but kept All That because it draws similarities to the sketch comedy style. Fixed references.

Casting

 * I'm not convinced it's appropriate to use non-free files like File:Sonny with a Chance (season 1) cast.jpg when free images of cast members exist, but either way got a "Not found" error from its file source that shows no photography
 * I have changed the non-free image to free images of the cast members.


 * See my above comments on "made-for-television film", also it sounds misleading to say Camp Rock was what started Demi's Disney affiliation when previously appearing on As the Bell Rings
 * Fixed. Have slightly reworded and added As the Bell Rings.


 * If consistently using feminine pronouns, then change "them" from "described them as" to "her" for Gary Marsh's "gifted comedian" bit
 * Fixed.


 * We should mention Miley Cyrus in full here when not previously brought up in article body
 * Fixed.


 * There's a stray space in between "So Far So Great" and refs#10 and 11.
 * Fixed.

Writing and filming

 * While I would prefer to see time ranges for recording both seasons before Disney opted to make the So Random! spin-off, you should minimally add when filming for this series concluded, or the section will be incomplete.
 * I don't think it will be likely to find a reliable source with filming dates; I cannot find any presently.


 * The Hannah Montana pilot has no relevance here
 * Removed.


 * Any sense of how long it took to write episodes? Either way, another instance of WP:REPCITE can be found in the first paragraph, so no need to use ref#2 right after "scheduled to begin in September 2008". Same goes for taking out ref#13 near the "June 1, 2009". It also feels safe to use the past tense of "began" when that never got delayed from what I can tell.
 * Again, there are minimal sources for this information - which causes this section to suffer. Fixed both of the above.


 * See what I wrote earlier on super-short paragraphs
 * Fixed.


 * Delete the stray space between ref#3 and "February 8, 2009".
 * Fixed.

Lovato's departure and So Random!

 * Refer to my previous comments on pronouns regarding "followed them withdrawing"
 * Fixed.


 * You've reversed the order of adjectives for "emotional and physical issues" that E! mentions
 * Fixed.


 * More WP:REPCITE as "temporary solution until Lovato returned" doesn't need ref#16 right after it
 * Fixed.


 * Let's add a time for when So Random! stopped airing along with the premiere.
 * Done.

That was easily the biggest chunk done so far! I'll have more up later. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 20:34, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Done. SatDis (talk) 11:15, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I don't mean to be too forthcoming, but any updates on the review? Thanks. SatDis (talk) 14:01, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
 * My apologies! I got sidetracked and will resume shortly. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 16:40, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Series overview

 * Not quite sure what the standard is with these boxes, but it seems odd to not have any citations here
 * In my experience, these sections never have citations.

Reception

 * It feels redundant to list accolades here that are already contained in a table below.
 * Removed.


 * Let's specify that "more like a Nickelodeon show" means closer to that network than Disney Channel
 * Added.


 * Another instance of WP:REPCITE as ref#24 only has to be used at the end of "isn't funny", which should be "is not funny" per WP:CONTRACTIONS
 * Done.


 * The piece I liked earlier for Holli and Welcome to Holliwood can be used to expand on reviews, and perhaps Common Sense Media could as well
 * Thanks, have added those.
 * You're quite welcome :), just remove the italics from both of those, and it should read as simply E! without the "News" part. Common Sense Media also only needs to be used at the end of "a worthwhile role model" per WP:REPCITE. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 05:05, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Done all of the above.

U.S. television ratings

 * No references here at all, which is problematic, and do we really need both this and the series overview box when the only difference is one contains viewership and times of day the episodes aired?
 * I have reworked this section to include references and different information to the series overview. The averages come from the citations on the episode list.
 * Looking better aside from how 3.735M viewers watched the season 1 finale. If rounding to the nearest hundreth-thousand, then go with 3.7M. Was nothing available for the season 2 finale? Regardless, I forgot to mention that ratings might be misplaced under a "Reception" heading when they have nothing to do with accolades or whether critics liked something. Merging it with "Series overview" would kill two birds with one stone by eliminating redudancy and avoiding false impressions that viewership is related to critic reviews or any award given. Perhaps the heading with one box could be titled "Series overview and U.S. television ratings" or something similar. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 05:05, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Have fixed the S1 finale. I searched everywhere for the S2 finale, but nothing was available. I have checked the Television Manual of Style and it is completely normal to include this in the reception section. Please let me know if that is still a problem.

Awards and nominations

 * Can't tell why, but the attributed ref didn't mention an ALMA Award for this show. Thankfully I found something that does.
 * I have added the new source, but the original source does list the award (published by ALMA Awards).
 * As weird as it might sound, that now shows up for me too when using my lpatop, and the issue might've just been how I instead was previously viewing it on my phone. Oh well. I'll let you choose whether to keep one or both. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 05:05, 27 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Citations only giving a list of nominees don't cut it; we need something that also provides results whether it's a win or loss.
 * I'm not sure about this. The table says they were nominated; the source says they were nominated. It is sometimes difficult to find further sources on these awards - they typically list the award winner only. For example, here: it lists the winner for Fave Comedy and here  for Fave TV Show but neither of them mention Sonny as nominated at all. Therefore, I believe that to be original research.
 * While I definitely would prefer implementing pieces that mention winners along with other nominees, you could as a last resort bundle winners-only lists of shows with citations announcing their nominations pre-ceremony, and that has been accepted as a valid practice when pertaining to the same awards. In fact, it's something I occasionally have done myself without getting complaints for doing so. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 05:05, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * For each of the nominated awards, I have included a second reference where the winner is announced. The Young Artist Award ref shows both the winner and nominations.

My next batch of comments will most likely be the last. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 17:29, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Done. SatDis (talk) 04:10, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Other media

 * There's no point in having a "Merchandising" subheading when no other subsections are underneath this heading.
 * To avoid feeling too bare, I think you minimally could add some gameplay details on the DS video game and how the Sonny's Big Break compilation contained a total of four episodes along with a bonus one. If other physical/digital releases pertaining to the series were made, then those would be worth mentioning too.
 * Have expanded this section.

Overall

 * Prose: Some minor issues need fixing
 * Referencing: Not all text is backed up, and there are improperly formatted citations
 * Coverage: Expansions could be made for "Other media"
 * Neutrality: As far as I can tell, there isn't any bias
 * Stability: Every recent change has been to improve the article for the goal of obtaining GA
 * Media: The used pictures each are appropriately licensed, including File:Tiffany Thornton 2010 (cropped).jpg and File:Brandon Mychal Smith.jpg which you added as replacements for a non-free image
 * Verdict Putting the nomination on hold for seven days. If you can resolve my remaining concerns within that time, then I'll be happy to pass the GAN. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 05:05, 27 September 2022 (UTC)


 * I believe I have addressed all of the above. Please let me know of any further issues, e.g. "not all text is backed up" and I will aim to fix them ASAP. Thanks. SatDis (talk) 08:34, 27 September 2022 (UTC)


 * One last thing: unless you can find a ref for how many watched the second season's last episode, I (reluctantly) would opt to remove that number used altogether. Your choice on whether to use "Unknown" or anything else as a replacement. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 12:08, 27 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Makes sense. I have removed it now. SatDis (talk) 13:03, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Now passing the nomination! <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 21:29, 27 September 2022 (UTC)