Talk:Sophie Morgan/Archive 2

Neutral point of view
At the time of writing this article is headed with Close Connection template, reading through I find little other than simple factual statements that appear to comply with NPOV guidelines Daffodillman (talk) 11:43, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree. I see no evidence that the article requires a "cleanup to comply with Wikipedia's content policies, particularly neutral point of view" that results from edits by people with a "close connection with its subject". It requires some cleanup and sourcing but not because of the material that has been added or removed by editors with a "close connection with its subject". Unless someone can provide actual evidence that demonstrates the validity of the template's presence I will be removing it.  Sean.hoyland  - talk 13:48, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Tabloid Journalism
I've pointed out to the editor of this major re-write of an old biographical article that it relies heavily upon refs derived from Tabloid Journalism. She has refused to take them down. The Daily Express, The Mail and The Sunday Mail are surely classic examples of this? The Evening Standard is also questionable. There are many other RSs she could have used. Can anyone help in finding other sources to replace those mentioned? Thanks and kind regards. Transparentfish (talk) 08:05, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
 * What are your specific complaints? Off the top of my head I don't recall the Daily Heil being cited at all; The Daily Express, the Glasgow Mail and the LES are cited because they each contain direct interviews with the subject of the article. Your history of editing at this article (and see also ) suggests that you simply do not like any source or any information that does not back up your opinion that Morgan is some vapid, over-privileged non-entity who is being dishonest about her education. Deleting information about her academic studies and simply stating "she didn't complete them, they're irrelevant", for example - based purely on your synthesis of sources and in direct contradiction to quoted sources. (How would she be taking a master's degree without having first completed a batchelor's?) You reappeared after a 2 year absence to attempt to prevent this article being improved - you should take your crusade about "tabloid journalism" to the Kelly Knox article - now that's a doozy. Keri (talk) 08:55, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks Keri for your comments. I still think you could do better than resort to using The Daily Express and The Sunday Mail for your sources. In fact, I always thought that independent sources rather than interviews with the subject themselves were thought more valid on wikipedia? Perhaps you could try to source some independent refs? I am free to edit when and how I choose - I've always thought this article was a mess. Perhaps you could tackle the Kelly Knox article when you've finished here, or at least flag up some of issues you've noted on the talk page as you have chosen to point them out? That would be really helpful. Sorry, not sure what a doozy is ! In terms of Morgan's education, as I understand it from what she's said - she did not complete her BA due to health problems when she was on bed rest for 2 - 3 years. In which time she did an Open University degree in English Literature. Hence she would have been able to apply for a MA. Not at all reliant upon her completing her Fine Art Degree in the circumstances. So according to your sources, she's now a qualified Art Therapist? Perhaps you could add that too to your re-write. Transparentfish (talk) 13:37, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
 * You thought wrong. Keri (talk) 13:52, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Maybe another editor would be able to help you find better references so you could delete the Tabloid Journalism that abounds in this article! Transparentfish (talk) 14:14, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
 * There is no "tabloid journalism" in the article; maybe you would be better taking your passive-aggressive snark elsewhere. Keri (talk) 14:29, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Keri, you are so defensive! There's no need to resort to personal insults and bullying behaviour. The Daily Express and The Sunday Mail are tabloids by anyone's standards. Indeed, Wikipedia defines them both as such."The Sunday Mail is a Scottish tabloid newspaper published every Sunday". "The Daily Express is a daily national tabloid newspaper in the United Kingdom". Better quality sources would improve your re-write.Transparentfish (talk) 03:27, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * "Tabloid jounalism" =/= "tabloid newspaper". I refer you to my previous comment. Keri (talk) 10:08, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree! Tabloid Journalism = Tabloid Newspaper.Transparentfish (talk) 12:01, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Hm. Inequation. Can't decide if ignorant of use of symbol or simply trolling. Keri (talk) 12:17, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Keri (talk) 12:20, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * The best place to ask about sources is WP:RSN. I did a quick search there and couldn't find anything on these two so I have little to go on. --Neil N  talk to me 13:58, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Further Education
I've also pointed out to Keri that there is doubt that Morgan finished her degree at Goldsmiths. It goes against what she has said in an interview: "Sophie later enrolled in an art foundation course in Brighton before moving to London to start a degree at Goldsmiths College, but then suffered a serious setback. ‘I felt as if I was getting my life back, but then I sat on a splinter on a pub bench. Because I couldn’t feel anything, I didn’t realise there was a problem until I developed an ulcer. It was so serious I ended up requiring bed rest for two years.’ Lying on her stomach waiting for her body to heal was, she admits, her darkest period." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2213816/Sophie-Morgan-The-90-000-robolegs-got-wheelchair.html#ixzz4KshoElir I wouldn't wish to use this in the article as it is sourced from a tabloid (I'm sure there are other refs available) but two of the articles claiming that she completed her BA at Goldsmiths are themselves tabloids: The Daily Express and The Evening Standard, and are not direct quotes so may have been misinterpreted. I suggest there is an element of doubt that she could have completed a Foundation Course of one or two years at Brighton, two BA degrees in London (Fine Art and English Literature Open University) and a Masters Degree in Art Therapy in a short period of time. Transparentfish (talk) 09:54, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * There are multiple sources stating she completed a degree at Goldsmiths. Take the Channel 4 profile from 2012, for example: "Sophie is an oil painter and portraitist with a degree in fine art at Goldsmiths Art School and now completing a Masters in Arts Psychotherapy." Your source simply says she was ill. Keri (talk) 10:17, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Keri, Morgan said she was on bed rest for 2 years not simply that she was 'ill'. Major difference there.Transparentfish (talk) 11:40, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * And nowhere does she say she didn't complete a degree - unlike the cited sources. MAJOR difference there. Keri (talk)
 * The interview quoted above allows for a certain amount of doubt, given the other sources that were present in earlier versions deleted in your rewrite. As it's an article about a Living Person, if there are any doubts about any of the facts, particularly as they've been drawn to your attention, you should allow for that in your article.Transparentfish (talk) 12:14, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * The sources disagree with your sense of doubt. We defer to the sources in a BLP, not Transparentfish's "doubt" or assumptions or opinions. Keri (talk) 12:18, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Keri, her interview introduces a sense of doubt. If I think that, then I am sure that other people do likewise. It's impossible to complete a university degree whilst being on bed rest. Incidentally perhaps you would let other editors have an opinion. I haven't posted these issues for your attention alone as my attempts to reach an agreement with you through our talk pages have failed and you've ended up being abusive towards me which is unacceptable. Transparentfish (talk) 12:27, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * The Channel 4 profile isn't a reliable source. Those things are often just based on submitted text and aren't necessarily fact checked. And she doesn't claim a degree on her website, she just says she joined the degree program and during it had a second degree opportunity. I'm not convinced any of the other sources are RS for this. Doug Weller  talk 12:19, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
 * There are several other sources, not just the C4. Keri (talk) 13:10, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Also, she does claim a degree on her website - the website of her art company, Love Lines : "Artist Sophie graduated with a degree in Fine Art from Goldsmiths University in London and had her first solo show in 2004." Keri (talk) 13:16, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

[outdent] Frankly, this whole thing is becoming distasteful; this is a BLP. Morgan claims a degree, other sources state she has a degree. Unless a reliable source claims she is lying about her degree, then that's the end of the matter. Keri (talk) 13:32, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Love Lines is not used as a RS here (and nor should it be). Morgan's website is the official site. We don't know that Morgan even wrote the copy for this commercial outlet. She runs it with someone else who provides the poetry. No doubt someone else designed the website and provided the copy for it - as is usual in commercial ventures such as this. Transparentfish (talk) 14:17, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
 * For clarity, re-read my last comment. Keri (talk) 14:24, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Since the subject has been raised, we're looking for good, independent reliable sources. Love Lines is clearly not one. Transparentfish (talk) 14:28, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
 * What you mean is, "We're looking for good, independent reliable sources that state Morgan has misrepresented her qualifications." Good luck finding them. Keri (talk) 14:33, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Stella McCartney MY2012 collection
Further misleading information in this re-write - re the Stella McCartney MY2012 collection: http://bpaimages.photoshelter.com/image/I0000xt40mcIb9Og. As is evident, Morgan was one of a number women who were part of the campaign. To say that she was chosen to be "the face of Stella McCartney's Olympics campaign for her Adidas collection" is misleading, whatever the quote says (which incidentally should be in quotation marks as it is taken directly from The Telegraph article). It's not fair to the other women who were equally involved in the photoshoot and promotion of the collection. Transparentfish (talk) 11:54, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * A photograph is not a reliable source. The phrase is not a direct quotation. The sources don't mention other people. This article is not about other people. Keri (talk) 12:07, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * The British Film Agency is not a reliable source? Transparentfish (talk) 12:20, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Straw man much? A photograph is not a reliable source. For clarity, re-read previous comment. Keri (talk) 12:26, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Have a look at this on Vimeo: official Stella McCartney MY2012 video: https://vimeo.com/35635348. And this: Stella McCartneys My 2012 Adidas Collection In Pictures (where Sophie Morgan is clearly not the face of the campaign here - one of the other women is): http://fashion.telegraph.co.uk/galleries/TMG8990084/Stella-McCartneys-My-2012-Adidas-collection-in-pictures.html  Transparentfish (talk) 12:37, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * We defer to what the sources state - not your opposition research. Keri (talk) 14:15, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * It's not opposition research, Keri. I simply googled the collection as anyone can do. It's online for everyone to see. When you've completed your tasks I'll add the video as a source to the article because there is nothing there at the moment specifically referring to the MY2012 collection. Transparentfish (talk) 18:47, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * For clarification, please re-read: "We defer to what the sources state." As for the video, it belongs on Stella McCartney's article - if anywhere. Keri (talk) 19:16, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I disagree. The link is extremely relevant to this article. As previously stated, I shall use it as a source in this article when you have finished your re-write.Transparentfish (talk) 08:38, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Paralympics
I removed the mention of J.J. Chalmers. It seemed quite arbitrary to include him but not Ade Adepitan, Josh Widdecombe, Adam Hills, Clare Balding, Alex Brooker, R.J. Mitte and Arthur Williams. And including them all is overkill and unnecessary: the article is about Sophie Morgan, not about Channel 4's paralympics coverage. Keri (talk) 09:40, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
 * JJ Chalmers co-hosted with Morgan - ie they worked as a team. For that reason, I've reverted this.Paradisepark (talk) 14:59, 26 September 2016 (UTC)