Talk:Sopor Aeternus and The Ensemble of Shadows/Archive 1

Genitals
has Anna-Varney Cantodea removed his genitals as mentioned in the his songs(anima) or its just a special effect with pc or something?
 * It says in the article that it's airbrushed in due to spiritual conflicts (She'd get the operation if it wasn't for her beliefs.)

Yes, she still retains her genitals.The false vagina is airbrushed in, and can be seen in the "Dead Lover's" album artwork... --Soporaeternus 20:42, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Female pronouns
Maybe if Anna-Varney Cantodea now uses the female pronoun, we should edit either the whole article or the parts referring to events after she stopped using "he" to conform to her preference? Or if I'm reading that wrong and Anna-Varney doesn't prefer the female pronoun generally, but only in some sort of artistic connection, that's not made clear in the article and should be clarified.
 * The German page uses the female pronoun (as do most German fans). I suggest the female pronoun for the whole page, but explain it at the beginning of the article.

This seems to be a clear cut psycological case of gender identity confusion, and in this particular person a form of artistic expression, to base this article that embraces the subjects disorder is not befitting of an encyclopedia. This article just confuses readers of what the gender of this person really is. While it should be stressed in the article the artist's manner in which he identifies with himself, this should not go as far as to break the factual and objective nature of an encyclopedia. Therefore, it should be corrected into the proper form of english which does dictate through words the gender of whom it describes. While his music may be created for him and him only (even though he seems to not have a problem with putting it on albums and selling it rather than the apathetic persona he wishes to portray), this article is not.


 * "to base this article that embraces the subjects disorder is not befitting of an encyclopedia." <- are you kidding? please, let's. "He prefers to be referred as "she" instead of "he"." <- this sentence alone is bafflingly rude.


 * How is it rude exactly? This is an ENCYCLOPEDIA. The point isn't to respect an artists' wishes, rather, to be as factually accurate and objective as possible. Anna is a male. The article should reflect that by referring to him using male pronouns. S71elements 21:43, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

''Actually, when reffering to a person it is "encyclopedic" to refer to them by their "gender", not "sex". A biological sex is not used, but rather a societal-constructed gender is. Yes, in the case of a transsexual, encyclopedias and other published sources of information do respect this societal-constructed idea and thus the person's wishes to be associated with the gender they mentally identify with. Anyway, the article already states that she's a "pre-opperative transwoman"; that should be enough for readers to get the basic concept of Anna-Varney's gender.''

--Soporaeternus (talk) 22:35, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


 * On the german wikipedia the male pronoun is used and not the female one as it was stated before. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.172.26.220 (talk) 21:45, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Request for cleanup
I've requested a cleanup. Good articles relating to a person should be consistent about using either male of female pronouns, should be written in the NPOV and should cite its sources. Currently, none of that is the case with this article. Soothing R  12:36, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree about the consistency part and thats easily fixed. The "problem" is only which pronoun to use. Im no veteran "wikipedian" AND im a Sopor-fan so im probably bias but imho i think that the article should refer to Anna as "she", even though she still have male genitalia. But thats nothing i would "bitch" about.
 * And i dont see were the article fails at NPOV and doesnt the links at the bottom suffice as sources? Slipzen 23:53, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

The only two links are the official band site and fansite (which is in german). I did look at the band site and there was none of what is up there, however the site itself was not very indicative of where what was.

Vocal
is she really a woman? i cant belive!,...im a fan,..im a mad,...sopor s music make me mad,...i love her


 * She is born with male genitalia and havent had any surgery so technically she's a man.--Slipzen 01:44, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Is it not the genitalia that make the gender? Therefore, he is a man because he has male genitalia. And if he has testicals he will have male hormones.


 * Actually, it's the BSTc volume which decides weather a person is male or female. At least psychologically. Tests done of people with Gender Dysphoria have proven that the BSTc volume in MTF transgendered people is smaller and larger in FTM persons. And in my opinion, the mind overrules any physical traits. 23:00, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Gender pronouns
In response to the above query, no, genitalia does not make gender. Gender is a cultural construct. trick, on the other hand, is biological and determined by one's chromosomes, which usually result in either male or female genitalia; this is not even always clear-cut, and numerous ambiguities exist.

When it comes to how one identifies, however, genitalia and chromosomes have little to do with reality. Besides, anyone can take hormones to help their body develop in a way that better suits their identity. If the above poster believes that male hormones make a man, what would you say to a male-to-female transsexual who takes estrogen? Is this person a male or a female? In the face of ambiguities it is most helpful to look at what this person's identity is, what their reality is, not what their level of hormones or the chromosomes they were born with show.

If this artist identifies as female, or as genderqueer preferring female pronouns, then the article about her should reflect that. Particularly if the article in the German Wikipedia uses female pronouns (alas, I speak no German, so I have to rely on the words of one of the above posters), this one should too. I am reverting the recent edits, where "she" was changed to "he", and I hope that anyone disagreeing will come discuss the matter here rather than just reverting back again. Thanks, romarin [talk ]  02:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia states that articles of different languages are independent and do not have to nor "should" match, to answer your rather firm statement about it doing so. When editing articles, just ask yourself who it is for. Is it for the subject, or is it for people READING about the subject? Also, ask yourself what the article would look like printed in an authentic encyclopedia. I doubt it would use pronouns in such a confusing manner. While you do make a point, your point only helps either the article's subject (if he would indeed wish to read about himself) or fans of him that already know much about him. An encyclopedia is meant to educate, not reaffirm someone's "comforts". So in the best interest of education, I find it very inappropriate with the way this article begins. Using feminine pronouns, it immediately conveys the impression that the subject is female. If it must conform to your requests, can we agree that at the beginning it should discuss the subject's true sex and condition. Perhaps a link to the genderqueer article, so that it educates people about it and helps understand the subject more. Then, perhaps it would be appropriate after the reader is educated about the gender of the subject. When I first read this article it took until 3/4, in parenthesis, to learn that the subject was a male. I did make some comments above, and you are right I was using gender incorrectly it was a passing attempt to reaffirm the physical traits of the individual because frankly I found it shocking that someone would have to ask questions like that after reading an article about an individual. Sex is a very well established trait in society and an article must be poor indeed if people need to ask what sex they are after reading the article. Remember the point is not to suit a person's "comfort levels" or fans who insist on following it in their dedication, but ultimately education and objectivity. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.166.223.86 (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2007 (UTC).


 * Thanks for "sweeping" out of nowhere to revert changes on the article on april 2nd and then disappear into mitigating silence. I am talking about it right here. I also wish you to consider the thought that if gender is a social construct, should we not appeal to what the majority would consider the article's subject? Just as psychology is the study of one's mind, and sociology is the study of how people interact with each other is not gender a SOCIAL construct and a cultural construct as you said. You should read the articles on gender and social construction.I think a large majority of our society would consider him male rather than female, regardless of what he thought. So, maybe on his personal website he can entertain the notion of being a female we must consider everyone in making a wikipedia article. I will revert the changes if I do not get a response, because I do not think articles should be "personal" projects for their subjects or their fans, conforming to every request and desire required. If there is going to be an article about this, we need to discuss it —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.122.45.7 (talk) 13:35, 13 April 2007 (UTC).


 * I agree that Anna Varney should be referred as he. For me it was quite confusing to read this article and I wondered what his sex is. I think you cannot exclude that the pronouns he & she can and mostly do refer to biological sex. If someone has a baby girl, the baby is referred as a she, even though the baby does not yet have a gender identity. Likewise a man who does not identity himself as a male or a female cannot just be called "person". If he has male chromosomes, he is biologically a man and should be referred as that in neutral and objective texts, no matter what he thinks himself. 193.166.69.176 20:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I want to say that I think you did an excellent job with the beginning with the article. You began immediately with his status as I requested. As far as what pronouns to use, I think they are fine as is but if you wish to discuss it please do so here and we can talk about it. I think, however, that I proved my point even further than I wished with my argument on social context and the nature of gender. While I do think that gender is a social construct and therefore he should referred to with male pronouns, I do not mind as much anymore with using she because as I said this article is very informative from the start about his true sex. So, please make your point here : ) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.166.222.34 (talk) 06:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC).


 * not everyone on this planet has had a chromosome test. and what some parts of you are "biologically" aren't necessarily the same as what you're culturally or socially or even what some other parts of you are biologically.


 * What If I consider myself culturally and socially as a monkey instead of a human? If I were to become famous and there'd be an article about me, should it refert to me as "Shubi was a monkey in a physical body of a human. Shubi did this and that. It was a a very intelligent animal. It wrote alot to wikipedia and lived in Finland. It was born at Turku".Shubi 19:19, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


 * You make a good point, yet someone changed the pronouns so I reverted it back to male pronouns. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.166.222.160 (talk) 04:22, 14 May 2007 (UTC).


 * Yes, maybe, if you were culturally and socially considered a monkey. You currently aren't, so you're making a purely hypothetical point. However, the use of male pronouns on this article is inconsistent with other Wikipedia articles on Category:Transgender and transsexual musicians. Please, what's in it for you? Why is it more important to you than to Anna, or a bigger deal for you than for Anna? She's the one this article is about, not a very intelligent wikipedian monkey from Finland.


 * And what if you consider the problem as the gender of the character? "Anna-Varney" is an artefact, a construction, the name doesn't exists really as identifying the person for the german Behörde (administration). Then it's a character, an any character has the gender the artist who creates it give it to it: you will refer to the character, to the "avatar" - just like saying that Emile Ajar (an alias of Romain Gary) is xx years old, whereas in fact the person behind Ajar, Gary may be ww years old. 88.160.69.38 22:45, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

This is irrelevant, the monkey analogy is a logical fallacy. A person is not a monkey as they are an entirely different species. This type of arguments is frequently used in the gay marriage debate. where-as it is possible for a human to be born physically male whilst feeling, dressing and behaving like a female does in the society in which they were born. It is possible that Anna-Varney is a female, and in all tested and verified psychological books Anna would be consider to belong to such gender (female). This is also a matter of biology, Anna may have certain brain traits that tell her she is a female, and not a male. That she does not belong to the sex she was born with. My final point would be that Anna considers herself to be female, and presumably if she could have gender-reassignment surgery. She would have it. She cannot though due to medical reasons. Now, let's get over this issue and move on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.39.3.83 (talk) 18:53, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Stereotyping American vs. German fans
A quote from this page, before my editing, stated that German fans show more respect to Anna by using the pronoun, "she," instead of, "he," when reffering to her; going on afterwards to point out that American fans do just the opposite, out of lack of respect. Because there are no statistics or citations as to a source of this fact, I cannot allow stereotyping to go on a factual and truth-based encyclopedia.

--Soporaeternus 20:46, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Spiritual = Religious?
I have edited this article on the lack of evidence for the idea that Anna's refusal to become biologically a woman, is due to her religious beliefs. She states that her refusal is spiritual in nature, and spirituality is not the same as religion.

(See definitions below..)

spir·i·tu·al·i·ty (spr-ch-l-t) n. pl. spir·i·tu·al·i·ties 1. The state, quality, manner, or fact of being spiritual. 2. The clergy. 3. Something, such as property or revenue, that belongs to the church or to a cleric. Often used in the plural.

spir·i·tu·al (spr-ch-l) adj. 1. Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. See Synonyms at immaterial. 2. Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul. 3. Of, from, or relating to God; deific. 4. Of or belonging to a church or religion; sacred. 5. Relating to or having the nature of spirits or a spirit; supernatural. n. 1. a. A religious folk song of African-American origin. b. A work composed in imitation of such a song. 2. Religious, spiritual, or ecclesiastical matters. Often used in the plural.

re·li·gious (r-ljs) adj. 1. Having or showing belief in and reverence for God or a deity. 2. Of, concerned with, or teaching religion: a religious text. 3. Extremely scrupulous or conscientious: religious devotion to duty. n. pl. religious A member of a monastic order, especially a nun or monk.

re·li·gion (r-ljn) n. 1. a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. 2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order. 3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. 4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

--Soporaeternus 21:09, 9 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I will add: "spirituality" = belief in a God of some kind, "religion" = man's attempt to put their own words into said God's mouth. 75.180.53.2 (talk) 23:40, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

New Additions
I have added a musical artist Infobox, which I plan to update in the future. I have also uploaded a photo of a former Sopor Aeternus logo. As well, I have provided external links and minor changes to the main text of the article. --Soporaeternus 22:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Editing Categories
Sopor Aeternus is not a Gothic Rock group. It follows a gothic style of music known as Darkwave.

Darkwave - Is known as a sub-group of Gothic Rock, also I would say, Anna does not conform to silly genre's anyway.

--Soporaeternus 02:05, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Article rating
Hi! I've just changed the rating back to "Start", mostly because it really needs a *lot* of cleanup before it could be considered "B" class. Some things that come immediately to mind are: The picture in the middle is totally out of place, references need to be standardized per WP:REF, and the sections should be along the lines of other articles (see WP:WPBIO, which has some great information). As a suggestion, someone here might post a message to either WikiProject Biography or WikiProject LGBT for assistance. Thanks! -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 04:22, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Tw 8.jpg
Image:Tw 8.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 06:42, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

New Additions 2
I've added the Origin and Development section, as well as the Videography/Music Videos section. I have uploaded several images, as well as edited the date releases for Rufus and Till Time and Times Are Done. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Soporaeternus (talk • contribs) 17:47, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

--Soporaeternus 02:05, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

New Additions 3!
I've added many more references, updated the Infobox, and added more information in the biography, external links, etc sections.

--Soporaeternus 02:02, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

New Gallery; Videography-updates; references
I'm starting a new gallery for this article because I think there should be many available photos of Anna-Varney. As well, I've added more to the Videography section because I believe that the album trailers are important pieces of Sopor Aeternus'. I've added a lot more references (most of them from soporaeternus.de), and I'm sure this should make some happy as this article is in dire need of them

--Soporaeternus 18:14, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Editing Categories
Somone decided to delete all the categories I had set up. I recategorized this article into Category:Transgender and transsexual musicians, because Anna-Varney is a preoperative transwoman. I also categorized it into Living people, as this is also the case. A few more categories may be needed...

--Soporaeternus (talk) 22:26, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

New Website Link
I have added a link to Sopor' new international website that is due to be launched nearer to the end of the year. The international website is a fan page not an official website. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.32.207 (talk) 22:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Also, I believe somebody needs to update the Video category, adding the new DVD release, set for November. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.130.196.78 (talk) 05:58, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I have now also changed the category "Transexual Musicians" to "LGBT Musicians", Which seems more appropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.152.215.122 (talk) 21:33, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Æ?
Hey, is there any way to change the "Æeternus" in the title back to "Aeternus"? Anna-Varney herself has never used "Æ" on any of her albums, she has always used the two separate letters - "Ae". I believe "Æ" would be incorrect to use here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.151.66.190 (talk) 22:40, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You can register and then move the article yourself. Otherwise, wait until someone else does it.--Zalinda Zenobia (talk) 12:46, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
 * In fact, such page moves can only be done by administarors. See Requested_moves. 195.134.64.173 (talk) 04:05, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Really? What's your proof? I'm not an admin and I could move pages. You can't, because you're not registered. --Zalinda Zenobia (talk) 11:58, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

That is not my point. My point is that Sopor Aeternus & the Ensemble of Shadows is an already created page and unless you are an admin you can't move a page to another already existing page. You get the message: "The page could not be moved: a page of that name already exists, or the name you have chosen is not valid. Please choose another name, or use Requested moves to ask an administrator to help you with the move. Do not manually move the article by copying and pasting it; the page history must be moved along with the article text." Omnipaedista (talk) 14:36, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Whatever. I'm not losing sleep over this. --Zalinda Zenobia (talk) 17:08, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Zalinda Zenobia, please read WP:Civil and Requested_moves before making comments. Thank you. --11:09, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Authorship
Is it fair that the authorship of this article is of Anna-Varney Cantodea herself? I don't think it's reasonable to let an artist like her (who indulges herself so much in role playing and in playing with made-up personality expressions) be the sole source of data on Sopor Aeternus, her own musical project. We need a considerably unbiased witness and analysis on this artist. Everything written here surely turns toward her behalf and interest, especially in order to mystify events and information that might be just plainly prosaic. I wish I could have something more serious and factual on this artist. A lot of accounts here seem theatrical, over produced and faked in order to cause an specific impact on the audience, and of course, for contributing in the building up of a character and a mythic/legendary imagery on this person that has nothing to do with real information. I'm sorry, but I can never call this an encyclopedia article, because it's no way scientific. Unfortunately a lot of the text here falls apart under the label of publicity and advertisement of her psychological role playing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.80.212.205 (talk) 18:06, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree. I think - first of all - all the unreferenced and badly referenced data should be removed. We should generally keep all the basic information but any far-fetched and unsupported data should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.155.201.183 (talk) 18:27, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Does anyone have proof that the author of this article is Anna-Varney Cantodea? If yes, it would be useful to present it to an admin here so appropriate actions can be taken.--Lembut (talk) 23:35, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Requested move
Sopor Æternus & the Ensemble of Shadows → Sopor Aeternus & the Ensemble of Shadows — Per this discussion. --Omnipaedista (talk) 10:48, 27 November 2011 (UTC)