Talk:Sorbonne Library

Translation clarification
What is meant by the line "The contemporary library which also functioned till 1700 when the Jesuits, before leaving Sorbonne gave away their buildings and books to the University of Paris," which occurs near the beginning of the history section?   A rbitrarily 0   ( talk ) 05:36, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Modified.-- Nvvchar . 14:31, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Great work. But why were the Jesuits leaving Sorbonne?    A rbitrarily 0    ( talk ) 07:19, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Problems
I'm afraid this article is riddled with inaccuracies both of fact and translation, more than I have time to tackle at the moment, and needs a lot of work. For example, the library is called Sorbonne after the university, not the house; ancien collège means former college, not ancient college, and so on. I won't tag it, but. . . . Awien (talk) 01:20, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I ce the sentence in the lede regarding the Sorbonne building. As for the comment about the the subheader names (i.e. ancien collège), see the Edit summary which aligns them with the information in the Stam ref: "Library of the Ancient College de Sorbonne, (1289-1795)" and "Library of the University of Paris (1770-present)". --Rosiestep (talk) 04:43, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit warring
Please do not vandalize the article. For those unfamiliar with what an administrative "rattachement" means, the Convention governing the Library clearly states that administrative "rattachement" (linkage) to Panthéon Sorbonne. For verification you can read the convention that does explicitly state the attributions and obligations of the "université de rattachement" (Panthéon-Sorbonne). Among the most important ones, decision over the library's budget, the management of the library's personnel, management of the library's accounting. For this specific tasks, Panthéon-Sorbonne receives a dedicated budget from the central government, and the other universities allocate specific contributions that are entrusted to Panthéon-Sorbonne for its management.

You can independently verify this in the Library's convention (in French) : http://www.bibliotheque.sorbonne.fr/biu/spip.php?rubrique294 and remark all of the specific tasks involving the "université de rattachement". We can discuss the convention article by article if that is useful. This by no means designates Panthéon-Sorbonne as the "owner" of the library, just as the administrator that all of the other involved universities agreed upon.

Furthermore, accessory to what the convention stipulates, the Chancellerie presents the library with two clearly separate sections. One section including Panthéon-Sorbonne (the administrator) and another including the co-contracting universities (Paris 3, Paris 4, Paris 5 and Paris 7): http://www.sorbonne.fr/etablissement/les-bibliotheques/bibliotheque-de-la-sorbonne/.

Please refer to specifics of the convention for further discussion. Thanks. MapcheckerParis (talk) 00:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Thank you for raising this. User:Xuo Tran: MapcheckerParis awaits your input. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 02:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Thank you Anna Frodesiak. As I explained in the edit summary, "Université de rattachement" only means the name put to it administratively. It does not it is administered, in the sense of being taken care of, Paris 1.

However, I gave a link to the page presenting who has the responsibility for the Library, and you can see it is all the universities equally: http://www.bibliotheque.sorbonne.fr/biu/spip.php?rubrique6 The current version of the article is accurate.

--Xuo Tran (talk) 09:07, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you for responding to MapcheckerParis about this. MapcheckerParis: User:Xuo Tran awaits your input. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 09:31, 22 May 2018 (UTC)


 * User:Xuo Tran, your statement about the Université de rattachement is not backed by anything other than your word. You are not adressing any specifics of the convention, and are not responding to the detailed, referenced statements over the the university of "rattachement". I quote below articles of the convention directly relevant to support the statement that the BIS is administered by Panthéon-Sorbonne. The question is not whether all universities are equal partners represented in the governing body (they are and they all have representatives in the Council of the library), but whether the library is administered by Panthéon-Sorbonne. This does not mean that Panthéon-Sorbonne "owns" the library or is superior to the other universities in any way. Just that it is the designated administrator every co-contractant party agreed upon. Read below (I translate a summary for those that do not read french and add the capital letters for readibility):

Specific allocation of budget from the central government to the University of rattachement
"Article II – 3 – Personnel Les personnels de Bibliothèque comprennent :

du personnel scientifique des Bibliothèques ; des personnels ingénieurs, administratifs, techniques, ouvriers et de service.

L’UNIVERSITE DE RATTACHEMENT reçoit de l’État, pour le fonctionnement et le développement de la Bibliothèque de la Sorbonne, une dotation en emplois distincte. Les universités contractantes peuvent mettre à la disposition de la bibliothèque des emplois affectés à elles par l’Etat ou inscrits à leurs budgets. Un état récapitulatif des emplois dont dispose la bibliothèque figure en annexe à la présente convention. Il est révisé chaque année.

Article II – 4 – Moyens financiers L’UNIVERSITE DE RATTACHEMENT reçoit de l’État pour le fonctionnement et le développement de la Bibliothèque de la Sorbonne une dotation budgétaire distincte, correspondant à une subvention de fonctionnement, à des crédits d’équipement, à des moyens de recherche et à une dotation contractuelle. L’université de rattachement met en outre à la disposition de la bibliothèque les recettes provenant des publications, travaux et prestations de cette dernière. Les universités contractantes versent au budget de la bibliothèque une part de la fraction des droits universitaires qu’elles perçoivent au titre de la bibliothèque conformément à l’annexe 2. Elles peuvent, en outre, lui allouer des subventions. L’université de rattachement reçoit la part des droits universitaires et, le cas échéant, les subventions des autres universités : elle les inscrit, ainsi que les siennes, au budget de la bibliothèque. Les universités contractantes mettent également à sa disposition les dons et legs faits au profit de la bibliothèque, ainsi que leurs produits."

[...]

The director of the library must submit the budget for approval to the university of rattachement
"Article III – 3 – Compétences Le directeur dirige la bibliothèque en exerçant les compétences que lui confèrent en propre les règlements en vigueur, en exécutant les délibérations du conseil et en prenant toutes dispositions de nature à permettre le développement, le traitement, la conservation et la meilleure utilisation des collections. En particulier, [...]   il prépare le budget du service, qu’il soumet à l’avis du conseil de la bibliothèque puis à l’approbation du conseil d’administration de l'UNIVERSITE DE RATTACHEMENT ; [...]"

The accountant of the university of rattachement as only accounting representative at the governing body
"Article III – 4 – Composition Le conseil de la bibliothèque comprend 35 membres :

les présidents des universités contractantes ou leurs représentants, en tant que membres de droit ; [...]   l’agent comptable de l’UNIVERSITE DE RATTACHEMENT ; [...]"

Decision over the budget submitted to the university of rattachement
"Article III – 9 – Compétence Le conseil par ses délibérations administre la bibliothèque et règle son fonctionnement, sous réserve des dispositions réglementaires et statuaires concernant les compétences propres du directeur ainsi que celles du conseil d’administration et du président de l’UNIVERSITE DE RATTACHEMENT. En particulier, le conseil de la Bibliothèque : [...]   délibère sur le budget de la Bibliothèque avant qu’il soit soumis à l’approbation du conseil d’administration de l’UNIVERSITE DE RATTACHEMENT ; [...]"

English Summary
The administrative matters dealing with personnel and most importantly, budget, are explicitly placed under the exclusive responsibility of the university of rattachement. The university of rattachement receives a dedicated budget from the central government, for the specific tasks of administering the library (Article II - 4 - Financial means). The budget of the library is submitted by the director FOR APPROVAL to the university of rattachement (Article III - 3 - Attributions). The accountant of the university of rattachement represents the only accounting service taking part in the governing body (Article III - 4 - Composition). The governing body administers the library and submits the budget FOR APPROVAL to the university of rattachement.

My point is that the administrative rattachement implies a direct involvement of the university in the day-to-day administration of the library, as well as a specific role in the administrative decisions and responsibilities.

Note that every single statement I've made is backed by detailed references that can be verified by you or anybody else. MapcheckerParis (talk) 10:00, 22 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Xuo Tran, as I did on May 22, 2018 (see above), I'm inviting you to respond with specific and verifiable references to the library's governing convention. I will be taking steps for the resolution of this dispute when unable to reach consensus. The underlying goal is to improve the reading rating of this article. Currently it is at "Start-Class" level in the quality scale and the editing suggestions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_France/Assessment#Quality_scale) are: 'Providing references to reliable sources should come first; the article also needs substantial improvement in content and organisation. Also improve the grammar, spelling, writing style and improve the jargon use.". I will attempt that for the specific section regarding the administration of the library (discussed above). MapcheckerParis (talk) 10:09, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Hello, regarding the administration, your quotes show indeed that we can say that, at least officially, Paris 1 is the main university that administates the library. --Xuo Tran (talk) 17:31, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi, ok. I'll go ahead and make that change. MapcheckerParis (talk) 16:31, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

RfC about the administration of the library
Should the article and the photo description mention "administered by Panthéon-Sorbonne" ? Should "administered by Sorbonne University" be removed ? MapcheckerParis (talk) 07:57, 24 May 2018 (UTC)