Talk:Sorraia/Archive 1

Portuguese origin, not Iberian.
According to the Portuguese page, the Sorraia breed's origin is purely Portuguese - the stated area of origin on the Portuguese page (an area limited by the rivers Sor and Raia) is on Portugal only, not Spain. The river Sorraia is formed by the junction of two streams, Sor and Raia. These two streams are, according to the Portuguese page, the origin of the name. The river Sorraia "starts" in Couço, Coruche... given a stream's length limit by definition and the localization of Coruche (far from Spain), the area is well limited within Portugal. Please propagate the changes to all the national pages. --portugal (talk) 20:52, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Article Edits
Hello!

I would like to help with this article by rewriting certain passages and by providing the citations you are looking for. I can also provide photographs.

I am not interested in being a Wikipedia editor, I really just want to assist in this Sorraia article. I apologize for jumping in and trying to edit things without realizing how involved such efforts are and how important it is to know the proper codes and formatting acceptable to Wikipedia. Thank you to Montanabw for cleaning up my first clumsy efforts. I have been studying the tutorials and guidelines but feel my mind is too feeble to grasp it all.

I'm propsing instead to offer my suggestions, complete with reference citations on this discussion page. I hope that those of you who are following this page and editing it according to proper protocol will review what I am offering and perhaps insert it into the article.

I am taking things section by section, and so far I have stopped just before tackling "Breed History". For today, then, I offer the following suggestions:

1. Present text reads: Distinguishing features: Hardy. Lean, leggy conformation, good withers, slim neck, convex profile; grulla or dun, typically without white markings

Proposed alteration: Leave out the word, "hardy".

Explanation: All other descriptions listed here define tangible physical features. The word hardy suggests an expression of the horse's overall physiology in relationship to his environment.

>>>>>

2. Present text reads: Country of origin: Feral landrace developed in the Iberian Peninsula

Proposed alteration: Indigenous to the southern half of the Iberian Peninsula

Explanation: According to the Portuguese zoologist, Dr. Ruy d'Andrade the northern regions of the Peninsula were home to a different type of indigenous equine, the Garrano. In an article he wrote about the Sorraia, reprinted in the book LUSITANO HORSE/SON OF THE WIND by Arsenio Raposo Cordeiro, d'Andrade makes a distinction between where the Garrano dwelled and where the Sorraia maintained its foothold. Of the Sorraia he writes:
 * "This one is to be found in the south of the Peninsula and I suppose it is the remaining specimens of a fauna dating from the beginning of the Pleistocene era..."

Reference Information:

A. Cordeiro, R. d'Andrade (1997). "Lusitano Horse/Son of the Wind", pg. 70. Edicoes Inapa, Lisboa. I.S.B.N 972-8387-20-2 1997

>>>>>

3. Present text reads: The Sorraia is originally a native feral horse of Iberia that was called "zebro" or "encebro" until medieval times.[citation needed]

Proposed alteration: The Sorraia is originally a native wild horse of Iberia that was called "zebro" or "encebro" until medieval times.

Explanation: It's important to note that the Sorraia was not a manmade breed, rather d'Andrade tells us that he is remnant from the native horses of the Pleistocene era. He is not a domestic breed that returned to the wilderness and became feral. He is an indigenous wild horse that has been brought into a certain domestication to preserve him from becoming extinct.

On his Sorraia Folheto website under the heading: The Sorraia - Breed or Subspecies? The Zoologist's Description, Hardy Oelke tackles the difference between what constitutes a feral vs a wild horse and sums it up: "Ruy d’Andrade, to whom we are indebted for saving these horses, didn’t refer to them as "feral"***), which would have meant they were domestic horses that at some point reverted to a wild state. He considered the Sorraias to be direct descendants of truly wild horses, of a primeval subspecies, or race. He never claimed them to be pure anymore, but he hoped to breed them back to near purity by keeping them isolated on his estate." see: http://www.sorraia.org/folheto.htm

Reference Information: Oelke, Hardy. http://www.sorraia.org/folheto.htm "The Sorraia - Breed or Subspecies? The Zoologist's Description" "Sorraia Folheto Informativo" Retrieved on 2008-12-06

Citation Needed: To help with the citation, in reference to the name "zebro" et. al, we can find what we need at this website as well as in Cordeiro's and Gonzaga's and Oelke's books.

Reference Information: --Oelke, Hardy. http://www.sorraia.org/folheto.htm "Zebro - Wild Horse" and "New Information Regarding the Zebro" "Sorraia Folheto Informativo" Retrived on 2008-12-06

Oelke, H (1997). "Born Survivors on the Eve of Extinction", pg.58, 62. Kierdorf Verlag, Wipperfürth, Germany ISBN 3-89118-096-9

--A. Cordeiro, R. d'Andrade (1997). "Lusitano Horse/Son of the Wind", pg. 65. Edicoes Inapa, Lisboa. I.S.B.N 972-8387-20-2 1997

--Gonzaga, P. (2004) "A History of the Horse Vol. 1, The Iberian Horse From Ice Age to Antiquity, pg. 46. J.A. Allen, London ISBN 0 85131 867 3

>>>>

4. Present text reads: Sorraias are always either grulla or dun in color.[citation needed]

Proposed alteration: Sorraias are always either grulla or dun in color, showing hue variations from light to dark, especially in grullas.

Explanation: Many English translations of d'Andrade's original Portuguese texts inappropriately use the word "grey" as a translation for "rato", which is very misleading when one is discussing equine coat coloring. In Portuguese, "rato" is in reality the color of a mouse and "mouse dun" is more exact than grey. Grullo is the Spanish word for the same color and seems to be the accepted word used by the English speaking countries as well. When we read these translations we must realize it is the "rato" or "mouse dun" that is being described, complete with the primitive markings, and not "grey" in the usual sense which does not display any primitive markings.

All the horses in d'Andrade's foundation herd were either grulla or dun, or as the chart shows in the official STUDBOOK DA RACA SORRAIA "rato" and "baio" (mouse dun/grulla and dun respectively).

To support this we can use these sources as citations each of which quote d'Andrades writings within their manuscripts describing the color as dun and grulla:

Reference Information:

--Gonzaga, P. (2004) "A History of the Horse Vol. 1, The Iberian Horse From Ice Age to Antiquity, pg. 41, 42, 45 J.A. Allen, London ISBN 0 85131 867 3

--A. Cordeiro, R. d'Andrade (1997). "Lusitano Horse/Son of the Wind", pg. 72, 74. Edicoes Inapa, Lisboa. I.S.B.N 972-8387-20-2 1997

--Oelke, H (1997). "Born Survivors on the Eve of Extinction", pg.61, 62. Kierdorf Verlag, Wipperfürth, Germany ISBN 3-89118-096-9

--Oom, d'Andrade, Costa-Ferreira (2004). "Stud Book da Raca Sorraia" pg. 124, 181. Artes Graficas, Alpiarça ISBN 972-8471-90-4

>>>>

5. Present Text reads: Sorraia horses are extremely tough, but often with a calm and gentle temperament. Their conformation predisposes them to natural collection and elegant gaits as well as swiftness and easy maneuverability.[citation needed]

Quotes from d'Andrade provide excellent citation.

Two from LUSITANO HORSE/SON OF THE WIND: "When they are mounted, their movements when concentrated are high and elegant, the way country folk like them; at the spur they will charge, running swiftly and stopping suddenly, thereby defending themselves well when daced with the unexpected charging of bulls, which are sudden and quick."

"Our type of Sorraia Horse seems more definitely a saddle horse, less perfected perhaps, but retaining the qualities which characterise it, such as vigour, swiftness and courage; mobility at turning; fastness at starting and stopping; a fine mouth; sensitive and fine at the spur."

One from A HISTORY OF THE HORSE: "With bones once more covered by flesh they change completely in appearance, especially the stallions, which in full flesh show a curved neck and, so much changed, they look close-coupled and full of life, moving with a lot of elegance and gracefulness, and become beautiful Andalusian horses that can rival Arabians, as they become fine and swift, full of movement and fire. At such moments they reveal the Iberian form of the highest class of animal, on a smaller scale."

Also from A HISTORY OF THE HORSE, while describing the conformational characteristics of the Ancestral Type II horse of which the Sorraia is the closest modern representative, Gonzaga writes:

"These characteristics made him capable of moving with collection, placing the hind legs under the body mass and the nose vertically, the ideal requirements for a good riding horse."

Reference Information: --Gonzaga, P. (2004) "A History of the Horse Vol. 1, The Iberian Horse From Ice Age to Antiquity, pg. 45. J.A. Allen, London ISBN 0 85131 867 3

--A. Cordeiro, R. d'Andrade (1997). "Lusitano Horse/Son of the Wind", pg. 78. Edicoes Inapa, Lisboa. I.S.B.N 972-8387-20-2 1997

>>>> I own a purebred Sorraia stallion named, Altamiro. He is the only purebred Sorraia in Canada and one of three purebred Sorraias in all of North America. I am devoted to helping keep this endangered primitive horse from losing genetic viability. My husband and I have established a Sorraia Mustang Preserve where Altamiro is allowed to roam 360 acres, living in a semi-wild condition with four select mustang mares which possess the Sorraia phenotype. We have three foals this year by Altamiro.

I'm sure I can help with this article, if you can use any of my input, please do! SelonaSelona (talk) 20:32, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Selona, thanks for your suggestions. We will take a look at them and see what can be added.  Basically, what we need for your sources is things like the author of the work, page number of material, the publisher and the date -- essentially the same things needed for the footnotes and bibliography of any college-level term paper.  It isn't too tough to learn to use the formatting tags (I personally just copied formatting stuff from other pages at first), but we can do that sort of thing if needed.  However, we would appreciate enough info so that the source material can be located and verified by others.  Thanks!   Montanabw (talk) 05:35, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Montanabw, I'm glad you are following along with my efforts to help with this article. I have edited what I wrote in yesterdays discussion entry and hope I did so in a way that provides ALL the necessary reference information. I kept checking against examples in the "reference for beginners" section. I appreciate that you find the wikipedia formatting easy to use and am happy that you can input for me any of the information which passes inspection.

I would like to next tackle the rest of the article and provide more accurate information and supportive references, which I hope to make time for tomorrow.

Are you aware that the photo you are using in this article to show what a Sorraia horse looks like is terribly unsuitable? The blanket clip distorts the color and the pose doesn't show the convex profile (or it may be that this particular horse does not have the best example of a convex profile). I can obtain a photo for you from Hardy Oelke or can supply one of my own Sorraia stallion. Hardy has photos of d'Andrade's horses in Portugal as well as those of his own which live wild on a private reserve in the old Vale de Zebro. It seems to me that you could do better with one of his photos or my own, rather than try to gain one from Spain. Also there could surely be better photos provided by the "Associacao Internacional de Criadores do Cavalo Iberico de Tipo Primitivo -Sorraia"

Thank you for allowing me to particpate in this article and for understanding my lack of "code (even template) savvy" as regards the wikipedia realm.

(For some reason, this afternoon, the bold icon button wouldn't embolden for me as it did yesterday...which makes it a bit more difficult to follow the various points.) SelonaSelona (talk) 22:03, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Complete rewrite
I have taken the liberty, after reading the above discussion, of completely rewriting the article. What I basically did was delete the whole thing and write it from scratch using the reliable references I could find, so if I deleted anything horrifically important, I apologize - basically, if I couldn't cite it, it didn't get to stay. One of my main concerns with the information available on the Sorraia is that most of it is written by the same two gentlemen. While I'm not criticizing their positions as the pre-eminant saviors of the breed, I do believe they may be just a little bit...NPOV... *grin* I'd love to find some more stuff that didn't come from them, and I'm going to spend a while tomorrow if I get a chance going through some scientific journal databases to see what I can find. Also, I'll try to drop by the library on my lunch hour to see what I can find there, although that might not end up happening until Monday.

Selona, if you have comments on the newly written article, I would love to hear them. The books you've listed above sound quite interesting, and if there's something you would like to see included out of one of them, please just provide a direct quote with a page number and I'll be happy to toss a summary/paraphrase of it in, or you're welcome to go ahead and do it yourself. As far as the picture goes, the reason that's in there is mainly because that's the only free image that we've been able to find. If you have pictures of your own horse, it would be great if you could upload them. Since you are the creator, you have the ability to release them to free-use, and it would be great to have a better picture. I agree that the current one is rather bad, but free-use criteria top picture quality every time, I'm afraid.

Please let me know if either of you (Montanabw or Selona) have any questions. Like I said, I'll be working on the article more tomorrow, but I would love input (and sources) from other places. Dana boomer (talk) 02:12, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Article Edits
All this week I've been working on a detailed offering for the history section which I was just coming aboard to putting the finishing touches on and then submit for discussion.

Having just read, however, the recent update to the Sorraia article, I am sorry to say that I will not make my help available any longer. Too much of the information that has recently been edited in is amazingly in error. Owning a purebred Sorraia myself (one of only an approximate 200 specimens world wild), and dedicating myself to establishing a Sorraia Mustang Preserve, being in almost daily contact with one of the leading champions to bring this primitive horse to a less endangered status, in addition to widely researching this horse I can honestly tell you that there is no such thing as a grey or palomino Sorraia, nor do they average the sizes given here. I could line by line point out the error in so much of what has been added to this article, but I am not sure this is what is desired.

If there is anyone monitoring this article that would like to have a serious discussion about these serious errors, please feel free to contact me on my talk page.

Selona (talk) 20:00, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Replied on Selona's talk page. Basically, if anyone else has sources that are contradictory to mine, please let me know and feel free to correct me.  As I said above, I plan to do more research over the next few days and will add more info as I find it, and I welcome other people's input on the article. Dana boomer (talk) 20:07, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Article Edits
I'm not sure why I did not pick up your previous explanation Dana, but surely I will give consideration to your suggestions. Here is what I had been working on, and as you'll note, there were several additional sources added. This section of the history as I've put it forth is not complete, as I didn't get to mention what the status of the Sorraia is today and where efforts are being made to continue the genetic viability (in Germany, Portugal and Canada for example).

As I mentioned earlier on, I have no interest in becoming a Wikipedia editor, but I did think I could help with this article by sharing my research and I thought I might be included in discussion prior to such a different edit than what you provided, Dana (which I know takes a lot of time, so I don't want to seem rude by not appreciating what you've tried to do.) The Sorraia is largely misunderstood in general breed books, but there is verifiable information in all of d'Andrade's writings, which is why he is so widely referred to.

Anyway...for what its worth... Fossil records show horses have dwelled consistently on the Iberian Peninsula  since the Pleistocene.

Ref: Luis et al. "Iberian Origins of New World Horse Breeds". http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/97/2/107?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=horse&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT#BIB3 February 2006. Extracted December 11, 2008

Historical documents such as the Lisbon Charter of 1179, provides the established prices of certain animal hides, one of which is that of the Zebro, the indigenous wild horse of the southern regions of the Iberian Peninsula. Antiquated treatises on hunting, in Spain as well as Portugal, describe dark-faced, striped rat-colored wild equids that were know by regional variants of the moniker "zebro". These descriptions conform to the primitive Iberian horse ancestral form-III. These same characteristics we find intact in the Sorraia horse, suggesting he is a prehistoric relic.

Ref: Gonzaga pg. 30, 46 Cordeiro pg. 65 Ref: Oelke, H/Alonzo, J.  "New Information Regarding the Zebro"  http://www.sorraia.org/folheto.htm  extracted 08Dec08.

These horses were not the product of a concerted breeding program by humans, but were the ill-regarded, hardy, native wild equine fauna which roamed the rugged, uncultivated lands and salt marshes of the Tagus and Guadalquivir river valleys. Peasant farmers would from time to time capture and use these wild horses for the purpose of herding wild bulls and threshing grains. Ref: Cordeiro pg.68

In 1920 Acclaimed Portuguese zoologist, Dr. Ruy d'Andrade came upon a herd of approximately 30 dun and grulla colored horses in the Coruche region, near the lower tributary of the rivers Sor and Rai region roaming the estate of "Sesmaria". D'Andrade's hippological interests (he was also a renown breeder of Lusitano horses) were such that he recognized he was witness to the existence of a group of horse which looked "totally wild or primitive, as if they were a type of zebra or hemiones."

Ref: Cordeiro pg. 72

Having seen incidence of these primitive characteristics emerge in foals of horses he was breeding, (which later turned grey and lost their primitive striping), d'Andrade postulated that the native wild horses he had seen were the originators of the modern Lusitano and Andalusian horses and became inspired to acquire a herd of these zebros to keep on his own estate for the purposes of research.

The group he had originally seen had dispersed and d'Andrade found it necessary to reconstruct a breeding herd base on his earlier observations by purchasing phenotypically identical specimens which were yet in existence, mingled among the free roaming domestic herds of various land owners in the region. Beginning with seven mares and four stallions, d'Andrade provided these zebros a semi-wild environment on his estate and gave them the name "Sorraia" in homage of the the river where he first discovered them.

Ref: Cordeiro pg. 74 Ref: Gonzaga pg. 42

While it is postulated that the last remaining Sorraia horses that d'Andrade used to establish his preserve were not free of outside blood, it has nonetheless bred true to type, despite there now being only two marternal lineages which survive.

Ref: Oelke pg.65 Ref: Luis, et al. "Genetic diversity and relationships of Portuguese and other horse breeds base on protein and microsatellite loci variation". 2007 pg.25. http://www.aquilapre.com.au/Genetics/Genetic%20diversity%20and%20relationships%20of%20portuguese%20and%20other%20horses.pdf

ONGOING RESEARCH (here is where I would mention the research work being done with mitochondria dna, I just haven't gotten this far yet) Selona (talk) 20:49, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for this information that you've provided. However, it would be great if you could say which information goes with which book page.  I know I'm being picky, but if we're re-writing the article, we should probably do it right... *grin* I've taken a look over this information, and it looks good. I'll try to start integrating it tonight, but I may not get around to all of it until Monday.  Please don't think I'm neglecting it or have lost interest. Thanks for all your help, and these great references you're providing. Dana boomer (talk) 21:29, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Dana, I'm rather limited in my computer savvy, otherwise I would have indicated footnotes for the corresponding references, BUT I sure you folks can note that the pertinent references are given distinctly after segments of what I've written which I thought you would want citation on. I realize what makes sense to me may seem like gibberish to you more advanced in wikipedia formatting, something I have cannot seem to incorporate into my pea-sized brain.

I had uploaded two photos to the Wikepedia Commons...one that Hardy Oelke had sent to me with permission to be used for this article and one I took myself--both show excellent examples of what a Sorraia horse looks like. I'm amazed I was able to get them uploaded! I realize that apparently I didn't quite convince the Wikipedia world that Hardy supplied me with this photo with is blessing (and I'm still addle-brained on how to demonstrate this) but my photo certainly is free for you to use if you want. I'd prefer Hardy's...lest any one think I am attempting to promote my stallion--which I am not! He is not the type of stallion one takes bookings on! Altamiro is herd sire of his own harem, and lives here on Manitoulin Island, Ontario, Canada. He has a "closed" herd as part of the efforts to preserve the genetic viablility of the Sorraia horse is to allow him to live as a family unit in a semi-wild setting with the carefully selected mustang mares of Sorraia phenotype. Altamiro came to us from a zoological park called Wisentgehege in Springe, Germany. To my knowledge, the only breeders devoted to preserving the Sorraia are located in Germany, Portugal and Canada, with only Germany and Portugal using totally purebred Sorraia horses in their efforts (in Canada we are pairing our purebred stallion with select mustang mares of Sorraia type to create a vigourous outcross that may one day be called upon to resurrect the genetic variablility of the extremely bottlenecked lineages in Portugal and Germany.) This is why the statement that "Today, a few herds are maintained in Spain and Germany" is so alarming, and I'm sure the Portuguese National Stud would feel likewise. I will have to let Hardy Oelke know that the Oklahoma State University infor on the Sorraia (which references his book) has errored in listing Spain as a place where herds of Sorraias exist--it is not Spain, it is Portugal and I think this cobbled article by OSU just made a mistake. I have never heard of any Sorraia's these days in Spain, though surely in antiquated times they were there (and you are right to mention the name "marismeño"), and it Hardy's book is very clear on this matter.

There are folks in Germany (not just Oelke), private breeders in Portugal and the Portuguese National Stud that have purebred stock which are being maintained for preservation purposes, and then our efforts here in Canada. There are two purebred Sorraia stallions in the states, one in Oregon and one in Wisconsin. The one in Oregon, Sovina, has a handful of mixed offspring on the ground and is not being used to preserve the Sorraia type at this point in time, and the other, Tejo II, so far hasn't sired any offspring. In order to put this information in a Wikipedia article, I'll bring forward citations you might wish to see over the weekend.

Well...there is much more to say here, but probably our heads are already swimming...best to give things a rest for a bit.

I just looked at the article again and see some changes have been made...time to look them over.

My best Selona (talk) 00:07, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

About the Marismeño
Please reconsider the prominence you have given the Marismeño in this article on the Sorraia.

Sometimes it seems to me that the names of horses are often like the names of streets...they change without rhyme or reason.

The Marismeño is listed as a different Iberian horse than that of the Sorraia and its mtDNA was tested along that of the Sorraia and other subjects, each being different types of Iberian horses. This article defines thusly: "Marismeño (an ancient semiferal horse population located in the Doñana Natural Park) in Spain".

Ref: Royo, et. al in, "The Origins of Iberian Horses Assessed via Mitochondrial DNA" http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/96/6/663#TBL2  October 26, 2005. retrieved December 13, 2008

When I checked into these Marismeño's living in Spain, I found that this same horse is also called "Retuerta"--something I've not been exposed to until now, so it is news to me. And research is suggesting ancient origins for these horses too, but they phenotypically do not resemble the Sorraia, being larger and having different coloring among other things.

Ref: Kett, Samantha. "Free as the wind, old as the hills". August 7, 2007. Retrieved 13December08 http://www.thinkspain.com/news-spain/13544/free-as-the-wind-old-as-the-hills

Both these sources describe the Marismeño and the Retuerta as semiferal, and likely having developed on their own by ancestral wild horses crossing with loose domestic stock. Is it possible the Marismeño is the product of the old world Zebro and domestic breeds? This is what I now ask myself, because I cannot say, looking at what I've found written about the present day Marismeño or Retuerta that the name Marismeño aptly can be used in modern times as an alternate name for Sorraia. The Zebro (Portuguese) or Encebro(Spanish) monikers are more acceptable as alternative names for the Sorraia.

Hardy Oelke quotes d'Andrade's writings with this to say about the Marismeño: "It is well known that the animals from the Tejon delta (Sorraias) and those from the Guadalquivir (Marismeños) which came with Columbus to America, were of the same kind." Ref: Oelke, H (1997). "Born Survivors on the Eve of Extinction", pg.58, 62. Kierdorf Verlag, Wipperfürth, Germany ISBN 3-89118-096-9

If the Marismeño and the Sorraia were of the same kind in the days of Columbus, it is not something we can say about them in the present day. It might be more accurate to say that in the early days, the Marismeño is one name used for the horse we now call the Sorraia, but that today's Marismeño represents a different strain of feral Iberian horse. I'll keep digging and looking at the overview of these various names.

Selona (talk) 19:41, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

On the size of the Sorraia
The two sources Dana has listed to support that the Sorraia averages 12 to 13 hands are ill suited to an accurate portrayal of the size of these horses. "The Encyclopedia of the Horse" (of which I have a 1997 copy of) and the Simon & Shuster's "Guide to Horses and Ponies" are two examples of faulty information on the Sorraia horse.

It is disappointing that Wikipedia editors will accept the idle commentary of guide books that treat the Sorraia in passing over the detailed data provided by authors who know this horse personally and have monitored its size since the 1930's. The sources I have provided you while not appealing to your sense of having a "neutral point of view" are nonetheless considered definitive documentation of the Sorraia horse.

If you are going to discount the data provided by Dr. Ruy d'Andrade and Hardy Oelke, then why wouldn't any other information he has documented and shared with the world be equally erroneous?

It seems to me that if you accept the work of d'Andrade on some points, but not on something as fundamental as average size of the Sorraia horse, there is an insurmountable incongruent element to an article such as this that I find most inappropriate. Selona (talk) 22:46, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

On the profile of the head of the Sorraia
The entry Dana has made, "The head tends to be large, and the profile straight or slightly convex", based on the Simon & Shuster's "Guide to Horses and Ponies"  is inaccurate. One of the most noteworthy features of the Sorraia is its "distinctly" convex profile. Those who have only "slightly" convex or "straight" profiles are the rare example and not the norm.

Any of the sources I have listed will bear this out consistently.

Selona (talk) 22:46, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

On the Differences between the Garrano and the Sorraia
Dana's source tells here this: "The breed is closely related to the Garrano horses,[4]" My sources are completely different, so much so that it is gravely disappointing that wikipedia editors would accept the Elwyn Hartlely Edwards brief entry on the Sorraia over that of a renown zoologist specializing in Iberian horses. In the hopes to help you know the error of this statement that the Garrano is closely related to the Sorraia, I will offer something that doesn't come from d'Andrade's or Oelke's work. This comes from "The Origins of Iberian Horses Assessed via Mitochondrial DNA" which you can read at the beginning the article here:

http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/96/6/663#TBL2

It places the Garrano with the northern group of horses and the Sorraia with the southern going so far as to say "Northern and Southern Iberian horses can be well differentiated by means of morphological traits", and relays that studies have shown the northern strains (of which the Garrano is a member) are more closely aligned with the Exmoor horses of Great Britain, though the mtDNA testing does not explain their resemblence to one another, at least not along the maternal lineages (patrilineal influences cannot yet be detected via mtDNA analysis.

Selona (talk) 22:46, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Assorted thoughts
Hi Selona. Please be patient with Dana, she's one of our very best editors and is quite good at digging up good source material. Not only that, but she's also nicer and more patient than I am! (grin). I can tell you that she is listening to what you say and IS going to look into your source material if she can find it.

Overall, the general information encyclopedias are not always the best possible sources, though they sometimes are the best we have -- and we are always glad to use better sources when they can be provided, so thank you. Selona, for the links. That helps a lot. We have to be careful with some sources, particularly from breeders, as they are often both knowledgeable--but also too biased-- to be trusted, so things like scientific journals are excellent sources. In terms of the "living fossil" theory, however, that's particularly tough to prove and one of those things that many of the old breeds like to claim and cannot substantiate. For example, the Andalusian people like to claim the same thing, that their horses are the pure descendants of the horses in the prehistoric cave paintings, with nary a drop of anything else, even though the mDNA studies clearly prove that there is Barb influence on the Andalusian, and documented crossbreeding with Arabians in the 19th century! (And mtDNA is only carried via females, so can't trace male lines ever, have to trace y-DNA for male lines) LOL! Arabian breeders have some of the same attitudes (sighing...)

So Selona, we REALLY DO appreciate your input and sources. The main thing is that wikipedia is an encyclopedia and as such has to be really careful about finding the line between what can be proven and what is hope, myth, conjecture, and so on. From editing these articles, I can say personally that it can be really hard to put one's favorite breed under the microscope and try to write as if you are neutral. But please keep the faith and we appreciate your contributions to the conversation. It may take several weeks, but we should wind up with something that you can be comfortable with AND can pass the scrutiny of the "wikigods" at WP:V. Montanabw (talk) 02:14, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

More Assorted Thoughts
Thank you Montanabw for your sharing your thoughts. I think probably now there is plenty for Dana to dig into, which will allow her to have an opportunity to look at this article as holistically as possible.

One thing to keep under consideration, if you will...Yes, its true that many "breeders" of horses have a distinct bias and are prone to a variety of claims and assertions that may or may not be verifiable.

Typically these breeders are not also researchers, as are d'Andrade and Oelke...both men devoted to finding out as much as they can about the Sorraia and his place in the world of horses.

The Sorraia is not a breed in the typical sense and anyone who is breeding Sorraia horses is doing so for the sake of preservation and not to make money off the sale of a "using horse". These horses typically are not sought after by mainstream equine enthusiasts who prefer their sport and pleasure horses to be altogether different. And as new research sheds greater light on the Sorraia, d'Andrade's grandson, Luis and Hardy Oelke adjust their views according--not holding on to a rigid opinion, but really looking for the most up-to-date information and assessing how it fits or doesn't fit in with what is know from the past and proceeding onward from here.

As such, I find their writings highly relevant.

Other names to be aware of are:

Dr. Michael Shaefer (deceased) who was the first German to take up the cause of preserving the Sorraia by importing breeding stock from d'Andrade in the 1970's to establish a separate region for theses horses lest some disaster threaten the stock in Portugal. I'm sorry I cannot provide reference (other than from Hardy Oelke has written) for this as most of what is available about Dr. Shaefer is in German...I relay it just in case your diggers can find info on him and his role in the Sorraias.

Maria do Mar Oom, one of the frequent researches on Iberian horses, who's name you see on many of the scientific journal articles referenced. She is a European Research Partner of the Horse Genome Project, which says this about her:

>>>> Maria do Mar Oom Assistant Professor, University of Lisbon, Faculty of Sciences,Centre for Environmental Biology /Department of Animal Biology, Portugal

"I have always had a passion for horses.  I had my first riding lesson when I was 6 years old. At the university, most biology projects focused on animals in the wild, but I was determined to study horses. So I began studying behavior of the feral Garrano horses at the National Park and have continued studying genetics of the Portuguese native horse breeds since 1982. Since finishing at the University, I have done parentage testing of horses and  my main interests are population genetics, evolution and domestication, genetic conservation of endangered breeds (especially for the Sorraia Horse) inbreeding and reproductive fitness." >>>> I'm going to step away from this Wikipedia article on the Sorraia now, because you have much more references to look into and use now if you want than than you previously had, and hopefully an enhanced and accurate view of the Sorraia horse will result. I look forward to reading what will come of Dana's heightened study of this topic, and will only come back to comment on something that appears to me to be utterly inappropriate.

Selona (talk) 15:17, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

On the 15Dec08 edit to the Sorraia article
Dana, Montana... The way I see it, there are still some important errors with this article (and some that are more "simple nits" which I decided not to pick on). Those that I did feel required comment and correction are listed below.

That which is in "quotes" is from the article and that which is prefaced by -- represents what I believe to be more accurate and verifiable by the sources I've listed before, which can still be accessed in the early discussion entries so I will not list them again.

Based on all that I have provided, and the continued use of sources I felt were inappropriately used in earlier edits, which yet remain as support for key elements in this new edit, I realize that we are probably going to continue to disagree on which sources are acceptable and which are not. But to not raise a red flag to these distinct errors (especially when the Wikipedia article on the Sorraia is often the first to pop up on browser searches!) would mean that I don't care that faulty information is being passed along. And I do care.

So, here we go (again):

"Indigenous to the southwestern Iberian peninsula, today present mainly in Spain and Portugal"

--Today Sorraia horses are present mainly in Portugal and Germany
 * Fixed. Dana boomer (talk) 15:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

"The Sorraia breed stands between 12.2 and 13 hands high (50 to 52 inches (130 to 130 cm))"

--The height of the Sorraia averages between 14 to 14.2 hands
 * Fixed. Dana boomer (talk) 15:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

"They are generally dun or grullo, and have primitive markings that include a black dorsal stripe, black tipped ears and zebra stripe markings on the legs.[3] Purebred horses do not have white markings, and foals are born with zebra markings covering their entire body."

--Sorraia horses are always various shades of dun or grullo--primitive coat colors that are distinguished by a black dorsal stripe, black tipped ears and zebra stripe markings on the legs and often black barring across the shoulders. Unlike the lighter muzzles and under parts seen in the grullo coloring exhibited by Norwegian Fjords and Mongolian wild horses, the Sorraia has a darker face and muzzle, especially those which are grullo.
 * As for the first part, my version and yours say the same thing, with different wording. As for the second part (lighter vs. darker face/muzzle), if you have a source for this, it would be a nice thing to include. Dana boomer (talk) 15:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

"The head tends to be large, and the profile straight or slightly convex, and the ears are long."

--The Sorraia has a convex profile
 * Fixed. Dana boomer (talk) 15:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

"During the 20th century, conformational changes have been made to the breed through selective breeding, which has had the effect of making the breed look less like its Tarpan ancestors. It's modern form resembles a miniature Andalusian or Lusitano, although it retains its ability to thrive in harsh conditions."

--During the 20th century, the Sorraia horse was saved from extinction and deliberately kept in a semi-wild state on the d'Andrade estate to maintain the influence of the environment on the primitive characteristics. The goal is preservation of this primitive equine, not a desire to alter him into a domestic breed.
 * Information removed. Dana boomer (talk) 15:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

"The Sorraia breed developed in the southwestern part of the Iberian peninsula, north of Lisbon."

--The Sorraia was not "developed", it was re-constituted from gathering remnants of the last wild, primitive horses horses in the region.
 * Reworded slightly. I was trying to give a sense of where/when they originally came into being, not where/when d'Andrade worked with them. Dana boomer (talk) 15:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

"The Sorraia is a wild horse, as opposed to a feral horse, because it was never domesticated."

--The Sorraia is a true wild horse which survived intact in harsh, remote, non-peopled regions and has no history of domestic breeding.
 * Again, our versions say the same thing with different wording. As my version says, it is a wild horse, never domesticated.  I feel that it is necessary to have the "as opposed to a feral horse", with "feral" wikilinked, so as to make sure that people understand that the breed was never originally domesticated, as say, the mustang was. Dana boomer (talk) 15:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

"It was originally believed to have been the primary ancestor of the Andalusian and Lusitano horses, and through these two breeds an ancestor to many other European and American breeds,[2] but this has been proven untrue by recent DNA studies."

--Once thought to be the primary ancestor of the Andalusian and Lusitano horses, recent mitochondria DNA research has demonstrated the Sorraia horse occupies a singular genotypical cluster that is distinct from that of the other Iberian horses.
 * Again, same thing, different wording. Dana boomer (talk) 15:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

"As mechanization became more prevalent, the breeding stock degenerated, and d'Andrade, along with his son Fernando, encouraged the conservation and improvement of the breed."

--Conservation, yes! "Improvement", no.
 * "Improvement" removed. Dana boomer (talk) 15:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

"Today, a few herds are maintained in Spain and Germany,[2] and the bred is used mainly for pack work and riding."

--Today a few herds are maintained in Portugal and Germany. While not bred for a specific use, the Sorraia horses are versatile and have been used in herding bulls, dressage riding and light harness.
 * Fixed the first part. For the second part, can you provide a source?  I already have the bull herding information, but the dressage/harness part needs a source. Dana boomer (talk) 15:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

"but today the Sorraia and the Marismeño have evolved into two different breeds."

--however today the name Marismeño refers to a different type of feral Iberian horse living on the Donaña Natural Preserve in Spain.
 * Info added. Dana boomer (talk) 15:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

As added support for the importance and accepted reliability of the research of d'Andrade and Oelke, here are two more respectable papers which cite the work of these men in their reference sections. Jansen, et al "Mitochondrial DNA and the origins of the domestic horse". July 18, 2002 http://www.pnas.org/content/99/16/10905.full?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&titleabstract=horse+domestication&searchid=1051564254954_7106&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0

http://www.petermaas.nl/extinct/speciesinfo/tarpan.htm

Who do Maruizio Bongianni, Maurizio and Elwyn Hartley Edwards cite as their references to make the statements they have made about the Sorraia? What makes their statements verifiable, reliable, etc?

Once again, I wish to state I find these sources questionable in their reliability for reasons which I discussed previously:

--Bongianni, Maurizio (editor) (1988). Simon & Schuster's Guide to Horses and Ponies. New York, NY: Simon & Schuster, Inc.. p. 154. ISBN 0671660683.

--"Sorraia". Breeds of Livestock. Oklahoma State University. Retrieved on 2008-12-11.

--Edwards, Elwyn Hartley (1994). The Encyclopedia of the Horse (1st American Edition ed.). New York, NY: Dorling Kindersley. p. 104-105. ISBN 1564586146.

I will continue to monitor this Sorraia article and should I come across reference material to assist you on your improvement of this article I will share them with you on this discussion page.

Selona (talk) 20:27, 16 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Please see my responses interspersed above. I will check out the two new sources you have provided and add any new/relevant information in them into the article later in a little bit. Thanks for all your help so far and your continued interest in the article. Dana boomer (talk) 15:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

One I missed
"The horses show a distinct resemblance to the ancient Asiatic wild horse and the Tarpan, making its origins quite ancient"

The Asiatic wild horse is of an altogether different ancestral type than that of the Sorraia. The do not resemble each other.

Selona (talk) 20:51, 16 December 2008 (UTC)


 * We are temporarily distracted from some other horse projects, please be patient with us here. Can you give us sources for the above (like footnotes, even if not in :::::wiki format)?  Thanks  Montanabw (talk) 23:01, 16 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your comments, Selona. I will get to integrating the new journal articles you have provided, as well as another general book source that I have found as soon as possible - although this will probably mean Thursday.  Thanks for all your help so far, and as Montanabw said, sources (specific book and page numbers) for each of your comments would help.  It doesn't help as much if you put a list of books with page numbers, because then we don't know which information came from which book. Dana boomer (talk) 23:20, :::::16 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Selona, just think of this as a big college term paper (says the lady who is about to be buried in grading college term papers, but I have to write a final first!) LOL!  Montanabw (talk) 23:46, 16 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Montana and Dana
 * To support my statement that the Sorraia is a different ancestral type than the :::::asiatic wild horse (aka Mongolian wild pony and Przewalski horse) I've :::::referenced the following:


 * "What really matters is that today these wild equines, the Tarpan, the :::::Mongolian Przewalski and the Sorraia (now domesticated) are considered as :::::different types, with many distinctive characteristics that place each one of :::::them in an individual category, clearly differentiated from the others."


 * Gonzaga, P. pg. 39. "A History of the Horse/Vol. 1/The Iberian Horse from Ice :::::Age to antiquity" (2004)J.A.Allen, London ISBN 0 85131 867 3


 * When he says the Sorraia is now domesticated, he refers to the fact that the :::::Sorraias recovered by d'Andrade back in the 1930's are now bred in captivity. :::::It's curious that he writes this because this is exactly how the Mongolian wild :::::horse was recovered as well!  There are now, wild Mongolian horses that have :::::been reintroduced to their ancestral habitat, as well as a handful of Sorraias :::::that live totally wild in the Vale de Zebro [see:  :::::http://www.horseshowcentral.com/flex/sorraia/327/1]


 * Morphologically the Sorraia and the asiatic wild horse are differentiated by :::::their conformation and color coats and via mtDNA we know the each occupy :::::distinct separate phylogenetic clusters. See:


 * http://www.pnas.org/content/99/16/10905.full


 * Jansen, et al (2002) "Mitochondrial DNA and the origins of the domestic horse"


 * Selona (talk) 20:49, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

More on the Height of the Sorraia
Montana and Dana, it was peevish of me not to supply what I know you desire, though I have done so before and there is a bit of cross over, which might not be apparent readily.

As time allows, I will go point to point and give the references again, with greater distinction.

Let's start with that big bone of contention, the height of the Sorraia:

The 15Dec08 edit says:

"The Sorraia breed stands between 12.2 and 13 hands high (50 to 52 inches (130 to 130 cm))"

My sources, (which as you know I find to be more reliable than the general breed guide books being referenced in the last edit) say the height of the Sorraia averages between 14 to 14.2 hand.

REFERENCES: 1. Oom, et al, "Stud Book da Raca Sorraia" pg. 181. Artes Graficas, Alpiarça ISBN 972-8471-90-4

2.  --Gonzaga, P. (2004) "A History of the Horse Vol. 1, The Iberian Horse From Ice Age to Antiquity, pg. 44 J.A. Allen, London ISBN 0 85131 867 3

3. --A. Cordeiro, R. d'Andrade (1997). "Lusitano Horse/Son of the Wind", pg. 76. Edicoes Inapa, Lisboa. I.S.B.N 972-8387-20-2 1997

4. --Oelke, H (1997). "Born Survivors on the Eve of Extinction", pg.61. Kierdorf Verlag, Wipperfürth, Germany ISBN 3-89118-096-9

It is extremely odd to me that the general books on horse breeds all seem to perpetuate the 12-13h height of the Sorraia horse, many times classifying them as ponies even. I cannot account for this, nor can I get a fix on where folks who've written these general books have acquired their information on the Sorraia. Since a main motto of Wikipedia is "verifiability, not truth", and the perception here appears to be that anyone personally involved with Sorraia horses does not possess a "neutral point of view" and therefore their carefully recorded documentation that give the measurements of the Sorraia as averaging 14-14.2h is disappointingly discarded. Nevertheless, I will appeal to you again to realize that the Sorraia is a small horse, but not as small as your guide books are telling you. This is not breeder pride getting in the way, it is based on the documentation of a renown zoologist.

Both the Stud Book and Cordiero's book reprint the chart of the foundation stock d'Andrade used to establish his Sorraia preserve. Measurements were methodically documented for the founders and their offspring and are listed in meters. Putting them through the conversion flows, (meters-to inches-to hands) there is only one that is 12.3h, the majority of them are 14.1-14.3h.

Studbook pg.124 Cordiero pg. 74

Eight stallions are measured, (those of the founders and a few of the offspring) ranging from 1.41m to 1.48 (14 to 14.2)

Studbook pg. 129 Cordiero pg. 76

I gotta run, but will get the other refs for you soon. Selona (talk) 14:38, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for these specific sources, I have corrected the information. Please see your above point by point posting for my responses to the rest of your concerns. Dana boomer (talk) 15:39, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Oops, something that I forgot: Could you give me a link to the picture that you uploaded of your stallion? I searched the Commons, but couldn't find it. Dana boomer (talk) 15:58, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

More on the Color of the Sorraia
First, I just want to say, Hey! were making better progress now! Dana, you and I must have been thinking the same thing on how to resolve the discrepencies between sources on the height of the Sorraia, I was planning to suggest that you present it as what the average size is with a comment that on rare occasions a smaller specimens have been recorded, but that the smaller size is not the norm. So thank you for resolving this.

Now, more about the color:

>>>As for the second part (lighter vs. darker face/muzzle), if you have a source for this, it would be a nice thing to include. Dana boomer (talk) 15:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)<<<

Dana, the reason I phrased things a little differently as regards the color is because dun (or grulla, which is a variation of dun) always occur with the primitive markings, meaning that the primitive markings are indicative of the dun coloring, if they are not there, you do not have a dun. Some will have more or less of the striping over the shoulders and the legs, but they will all have the dorsal stripe. Within this color of dun, there are many variants, some being very light "buttermilk" or "champagne" dun (probably where Elwyn Hartley Edwards got his notion of Sorraia's coming in a palomino color-though palominos don't have dorsal stripes) and some being almost black, as we see with some of the grullas. The grulla coloring is really something, can be light and silvery grey, bluish, smoky, sepia tinted or as mentioned, nearly black. And to mix it up even more, some (non-Sorraia) horses which are dun colored have the lighter muzzles (pangare or mealy mouth) and others have the darker muzzles and faces. [see: http://www.dungenes.org/  for a general overview of what it means to be dun.]

Sorraia horses have darker muzzles.

>>>[see: http://www.theellunkanat.com/sorraia.htm]

Quote extracted 18Dec08: "Extremeties (tips of the ears, nose and legs) always with a dark tone."

>>>[see: http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/98/3/232  ] Luis, et al (2007) "Inbreeding and Genetic Structure in the Endangered Sorraia Horse Breed: Implications for its Conservation and Management"

Quote extracted 18Dec08, emphasis is mine:

"The Sorraia horse is a breed with unusual characteristics. It was recovered and maintained with the purpose of preserving an equine type considered to be representative of the ancestral Iberian horse, from which several domestic horse breeds may have been derived and that probably existed in the Iberian Peninsula since the Palaeolithic period (d'Andrade 1926, 1937, 1945, 1954). In 1920, a small herd of horses with evident primitive characteristics (grullo and dun coat colors, **dark muzzle area**, black dorsal stripe, black-tipped ears, and striped legs) was accidentally discovered by Ruy d'Andrade in the Sorraia valley. "

>>>[see: http://www.sorraia.org/ Oelke, Hardy. "The Sorraia Horse, General Information". Sorraia Folheto Informativo.

Quote extracted: 18Dec08:

"In color, all Sorraias are either grulla or regular dun (no red dun). In contrast to certain other duns, which may have a mealy mouth, Sorraias have a dark, "sooty" face mask and a dark muzzle area."

>>>The 18Dec08 edit says: "Purebred horses do not have white markings, and foals are born with zebra markings covering their entire body."

I'm hesitant to say anything about this, because there are so many other areas to gain clarity on these two items are of lesser importance. According to the Sorraia Folheto link, "95 percent of the Sorraias (maybe even more) don't have white. A Sorraia with a white marking is an exception, not a typical example."

I bring this up because even in purebred horses there may be the occasional white marking, but as noted, this is the exception not the norm.

The zebra markings covering the entire bodies of newborn Sorraia foals are not true color markings, rather are a curious lay-pattern of the hair, which creates interesting shadowy stripes, tending to disappear in just a few weeks. The typical, true zebra stripes however do remain. I'll try and find a reference for this, and at this point this is just a FYI tidbit. I have photos of this with my own youngsters.

Hopefully today I can go back to the other points you ladies desired more complete reference notes on.

Oh, also, Dana...you need to also change in the upper box where the photo is under Country of Origin that today the Sorraia exists mainly in Germany and Portugal, not Spain and Portugal...the same as you fixed in the body of the article.

Selona (talk) 12:58, 19 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Here, I suggest doing a quick review of dun gene as a lot of this is already covered there. I'd want to see a photo of this "zebra" thing before we use that term, as primitive markings are probably all you are really talking about here.   Also, I do question that the Sorraia is truly "wild" and not "feral." I'd want to really rigouously check those sources, particularly as it is also claimed that the Sorraia is the ancestor of other, domesticated breeds. If an animal has EVER been domesticated, then it cannot be wild.  (Granting that bred in captivity isn't the same thing as "domesticated.")


 * By the way, great work on this! Sometimes I nitpick and forget to also praise for the good things that are happening!   Montanabw (talk) 23:53, 19 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I uploaded one photo showing the "zebra" stripes that can occur on newborn dun and grulla foals. In this case the foal is out of a purebred Sorraia stallion and an Kiger Mustang mare.  These "lay pattern" stripes fluffed out after a week or so, leaving just the typical dorsal stripe and leg stripes.Selona (talk) 21:29, 21 December 2008 (UTC)



Photo
"Oops, something that I forgot: Could you give me a link to the picture that you uploaded of your stallion? I searched the Commons, but couldn't find it. Dana boomer (talk) 15:58, 18 December 2008 (UTC)"

Dana, I don't know what happened to that photo on the Commons, but here is the link to where it is in PhotoBucket:

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa139/sorraiahorses/AltamiroProtecting1.jpg

This is a photo I took myself and I grant Wikipedia free and clear use of it.

I aplogize for not seeming to "get" how to go about these photos, and really, I'd prefer one of Hardy's, but until I get things sorted out my photo is certainly more appropriate than the one in this article presently.

I'm going to email Hardy again, and ask him to provide a photo (one without a watermark). I still cannot quite understand what I need to do when he gives me a photo to use to assure Wikipedia that permission for it to be used in this article has been given. Can you offer a suggestion in "layman's terms" that might enlighten me on the protocol?

Selona (talk) 13:09, 19 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not really an expert on Commons/picture stuff, but if you go over there, they have a fairly clear guide for uploading photos that are your own work. From what I'm seeing, you need to be a logged-in user (on Commons) to upload photos.  After logging in, click on the "upload file" button in the Participate box on the left side of the screen.  When that page comes up, click the first option, to upload a file that is your own work.  That takes you to a page where you can upload the picture and give all of the details, as well as helping you choose which free-use license is appropriate and what categories to use to help people find your photo.  As for Hardy's photos, there are a few ways to get his photos up.  First, he can create a log-in and upload the photos himself, using the above process.  Second, he can upload them to Flikr using a free-use license tag and they can easily be imported into Commons from there.  Third, there is a way that you can upload his photos and he can send an e-mail to the Wikimedia Foundation giving them permission to use it as free use, but I'm not really sure how this is done. I hope this helps. Dana boomer (talk) 17:45, 19 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Dana, thanks for your synopsis. I'll pass the info on to Hardy, and in the meantime I'll see if I can try and load my photo once again.  Apparently you ::cannot upload it from its present place at PhotoBucket?Selona (talk) 20:53, 19 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Because it's not my photo (I'm not the author), I don't want to try to upload it, and have them slap a copyvio on me. Better that you as the author of the photo upload it, especially since I'm sure you know much better than I the subject, time/date and other details of the photo. Dana boomer (talk) 20:55, 19 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Although WP:IMAGES is complicated, the reality is simple. If the image can be released either as public domain or under the cc/GDFL license, meaning that other people can use it for free and it can be used anywhere, then it's usable here.  Anything else, like "permission granted for wikipedia" won't work (I know, I've tried).  Occasionally a fair use tag will work, but more often than not, unless it is an image of a specific person or animal used ONLY for the article about that specific person or animal (not simply as an example), then it won't fly.  Hope this helps.   Montanabw (talk) 23:49, 19 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay gals. Let's see if this will work. I uploaded this time directly in the  Wikipedia area (not the commons) and I gave it a "public domain" liscense.  It looks like it worked, but I don't know how to get it into the article.

Here's the url/link thingy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Altamiro, Purebred Sorraia Stallion.jpg

Selona (talk) 00:06, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * As a public domain licensed image, it will go in commons now, too. You add it (or any image) to the article at a standard size like this: Name of image  In the case of your image, I'll put it in here extra small, it looks like this  Montanabw (talk) 06:10, 20 December 2008 (UTC):  Altamiro, Purebred Sorraia Stallion.jpg


 * Montana, I wouldn't blame you for rolling your eyes every time someone like me says "I still don't get it". I'm guessing you supplied me with a template or code with which to use to insert the photo into the article, but since it still confounds me, I'm too chicken to try and make the  magic work for me.  I remember early on when I tried to edit a photo in all that happened was I supplanted the current photo with and url link or something like that.  I don't want make a mess of things again, so I'm hoping either you or Dana will put it in its proper place.  I'll remain feeling good enough that I got the photo this far.  :-)  Selona (talk) 12:39, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * To make the image appear above, I typed in Altamiro, Purebred Sorraia Stallion.jpg at the place I wanted it to appear. "100 px" made it smaller than usual. If you put no size designation in (the preferred formatting) images will be sized to the default of people's individual computers.  It takes some trial and error to get things right.  Some people use their own user pages or talk pages to "sandbox" their experiments until they get it right.


 * As for the image, basically, the person who took it has to, for all practical purposes, be OK with giving it away for free use. The magic words, familiar to most professionals, is "public domain."  If they want to keep getting credit for being the person who took it, there are some "copyleft" licenses wiki will take that still mean the image is given away for free, but that they have to acknowledge the photographer.  Also remember that in doing so, the person's image may wind up being used by other people for profit.  IF they are cool with that, they can upload it at commons or here.  Hope this makes sense.  Montanabw (talk) 03:56, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Photo Practice and Extra Comments
Montana, upon your suggestion, I practiced a bit in my talk page and got the photo to show up there. Its not that I understand it one jot!, rather that my guessing and experimenting have proven fruitful. I was then ready to try it in the article, but I no longer see an "edit" feature to the first part of the article where the photo box is. So, once again, I'm stumped on what to do.

I also saw that you'd like a photo on the temporary foal coat "zebra" pattern, which I'll put up here in the discussion later today for you to see. Personally, I don't think its even necessary to mention it in the article--its a dun thing, and not something unique only to Sorraias.

I'll also put together extra stuff on the "wild" vs "feral" aspect, which from all I've studied is pretty cut and dry. What is less so is the underlying debate on whether the Sorraia is a "breed" or a "subspecies" and at this point in the game I see no resolution on that, especially since the Portuguese researchers are defining it as a breed, albeit they also call it a primitive wild horse...so I'll work on this in the next few days to give you quotes and references to mull over.

I want to help make this the best possible "low importance" article within the equine category. :-)

Oh, and I heard back from Hardy yesterday, who found the instructions for photo upload pretty daunting and told me just to try again myself with the photo he provided. But he has a copyright thing on it which I think is the problem. He said he'd send me one with out it, so I'm going to email him and say, yes, please do. Selona (talk) 12:58, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * HOORAY! You uploaded and inserted an image!  :-)  Here's what the foal's markings remind me of:  Not "zebra" stripes, but the transverse withers striping commonly seen on the burro.  That is really interesting, again suggests the dun gene complex.  If you are OK with us calling those things "transverse" striping, I think that will cause less confusion.


 * As for the subspecies thing, just go see the edit fights at Tarpan and Equidae over taxonomy. Equus Caballus, equus ferus caballus, equus ferus ferus...lordy that stuff just makes my brain want to explode!  :-P    LOL!   Montanabw (talk) 05:05, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Montana, I wanted to share another photo of the foal coat striping. The way you've worded it on the article "and foals are born with transverse dark markings on their body" still make it sound as if these are "markings", when really the are more like shadows...a trick of the light over the little ripples the compressed hair makes.  Think of it like a body wave in a woman's hair style...or think about those hunter horses that get their rumps "marked" by laying a stencil over the hair and brushing it the opposite way.  Referring to these foal stripes as "transverse" is fine, but something should be noted that they are not really a darker color of hair, but appear as such and disappear as the hair "relaxes" from its compressed pattern.  Does this make sense?GrulloFoalCoatStripes2.jpg


 * I agree, it's maddening when trying to make sense of taxonomic monikers and finding what is acceptable to one is not acceptable to another is something that happens in the plant and fungi realms too. Selona (talk) 13:47, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Additional References and Suggestions
I added the quote and additional sourcing supporting that the Sorraia does not resemble the asiatic wild horse and put it in the discussion segment titled "One I Missed" (my apologies for how broken up it turned out).

Elements in question within the present article are enclosed by >>> <<<.

On the bit about foals being born with zebra stripes,presently the article says:

>>>"Purebred horses do not have white markings, and foals are born with zebra markings covering their entire body.[4]"<<<

These entire body "stripes" aren't color stripes they are formed by the lay of the foal coat and disappear in a few weeks, leaving only the typical primitive striping.

"Newborn foals can have a zebra-like pattern all over, created by the directions of the hair."

Ref:

H. Oelke,  The Sorraia Mustang Studbook, from segment: SORRAIA CHARACTERISTICS SMS STANDARD OF PERFECTION http://www.spanish-mustang.org/startsms.htm

On cumbersome elements in the wording of historic elements:

>>>"In 1920, Dr. Ruy d'Andrade was introduced to the Sorraia horse during a hunting trip in the Portuguese lowlands."<<<

--d'Andrade's words are "came across a herd of some 30 specimens" while he was on that fateful hunting trip. The word "introduced" suggests someone took him to meet these horses, which was not the case. It would be better perhaps to write that he "happened upon", "encountered" or use his words, "came across" or whatever variation you prefer. The same alteration should be made here as well: "At the time of d'Andrade's introduction to the breed,"

Ref:

Cordeiro, Arsénio Raposo and Ruy d'Andrade (1997). Lusitano Horse - Son of the Wind. Lisboa: Edicoes Inapa. p. 72. ISBN 9728387202.

Oelke, Hardy (1997). Born Survivors on the Eve of Extinction. Wipperfürth, Germany: Kierdorf Verlag. p. 61. ISBN 3-89118-096-9.

Gonzaga, P. (2004) "A History of the Horse Vol. 1, The Iberian Horse From Ice Age to Antiquity, pg. 41.J.A. Allen, London ISBN 0 85131 867 3

>>>"As mechanization became more prevalent, the breeding stock degenerated"

To write "breeding stock degenerated" gives the impression that these horses were managed by humans--one woudn't refer to wild horse herds as "breeding stock" and the word "degenerated" suggests that they were suffering some debilitation of their overall type, which wasn't the case.

It would be appropriate to write, "As mechanization became more prevalent, and the numbers of these wild horses diminished almost completely, d'Andrade, along with his son Fernando, encouraged the conservation of the breed."

>>>"In recent years, the number of horses has been drastically reduced by changing the ecological balance in its natural habitat[6] and changes in its usage."<<<

This is cumbersome...and misleading--it aptly describes what was happening during the 1930's when d'Andrade began his conservation efforts, but is not something that one would say has happened "in recent years". The source is not making sense on this one. It was due to the "mechanization" mentioned earlier that the disruption of these wild horses habitat occurred...once they were recovered by d'Andrade, their numbers increased. Since then they have maintained in relatively low numbers, but have not been drastically reduced.

Ref:

Oelke, Hardy. "The Sorraia Horse, General Information". Sorraia Folheto Informativo. Retrieved on 20Dec08

On the uses of the Sorraia:

>>>"The bred is used mainly for pack work and riding."<<<

I suggested: "While not bred for a specific use, the Sorraia horses are versatile and have been used in herding bulls, dressage riding and light harness."

Reference:

Oelke, Hardy. "The Sorraia Horse, General Information". Sorraia Folheto Informativo. Retrieved on 20Dec08

" Sorraias have been used as mounts by the Portuguese vaqueiros (cowboys), and some have even been trained to perform at the highest level of dressage. Madalena Abecassis, a Portuguese horsewoman, has competed in driving contests with a team of four Sorraia stallions. On the old d’Andrade estate (Font’Alva), the vaqueiros still ride Sorraia geldings for general ranch work. The Sorraia is held to be the best mount for this type of work, and for general cross-country riding."

He includes a photo of a ridden Sorraia with this caption: " Sorraia stallion in a dressage demonstration at the Lusitano Festival in Lisbon, Portugal"

A suggestion:

To follow up with what the article says at the beginning, "enthusiasts from several countries forming projects and herds to assist in the re-establishment of this breed from its current endangered status", I think it would be appropriate to insert in the segment "20th Century and Today" a bit about some of the conservation efforts that have happened in the past few years. It need not "name names", but just give a brief highlight that positive things are happening for the Sorraia.

It might read something like this:

In March of 2004, a small breeding herd of Sorraia horses was released on the estate of a private land owner who dedicated a portion of his property so that these horses could live completely wild, as did their ancestors. The refuge created for them is in the Vale de Zebro region of south western Portugal, one of places so named because this is where the Sorraia's predecessors dwelled.

Two Sorraia stallions were imported to the United States in the early 2000's and in 2006 another Sorraia stallion made his way to North America, this time to Canada where a Sorraia Mustang Preserve has been established on Manitoulin Island in Ontario.

Ref:

Oelke, Hardy. "The Sorraia Horse, General Information". Sorraia Folheto Informativo. Retrieved on 20Dec08

Dana and Montana, I realize how busy you are with other Wikipedia articles and probably with holiday preparations in real life, so I appreciate that you've given as much attention to this Sorraia article as you have. Selona (talk) 19:47, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Dana, thanks for working through these suggestions and making appropriate alterations to the article. I'm still finding this sentence (in the history segment) to be out of place:  "In recent years, the number of horses has been drastically reduced by changing the ecological balance in its natural habitat[6] and changes in its usage." for the reasons written several paragraphs up.  Is there a reason you left it in this particular place in the history (after d'Andrade recovered remaining breeding stock and established his preserve and the numbers went up)?  If you feel differently about this statement, would you please quote the passage that lead you to include this sentence where you did--making it sound as if after preservation efforts were already well established there was some drastic upheaval that caused a reduction in the number of Sorraias in "recent" years?  I've not encountered in my studies any such thing occurring post d'Andrade's recovery of these horses, and certainly nothing "in recent years".

Selona (talk) 12:48, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

On the starting paragraph, and Thanks!
>>Today, the breed resides mainly in Portugal, but small herds are becoming established in Germany, the United States and Canada.<<

Dana, the small herds in Germany have been established for some time and are not "becoming established".

"In 1975, 2 other farms started breeding the Sorraia horse, and in 1976, a subpopulation was created in Germany with 3 stallions and 3 mares imported from Portugal with no further immigration until the recent past."

Ref: Luis, et al "Inbreeding and Genetic Structure in the Endangered Sorraia Horse Breed:  Implications for its Conservation and Management". April 2, 2007 http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/esm009v1 quote extracted 22Dec08

There are not yet any purebred Sorraia mares in North America. One Sorraia stallion in the U.S. is being trained for dressage and has not yet sired offspring and the other has had limited breeding to a variety of mares. Only the Sorraia stallion in Canada has a small herd to call his own, with four mustang mares which posses the Sorraia phenotype (one of which is a daughter from the Sorraia stallion residing in Oregon.) And also, yes, there are those folks in the U.S. who are putting together mustangs which have the Sorraia phenotype into distinct breeding programs dedicated to the Sorraia phenotype.

I bring this up because as your latest wording reads in the opening segment, it gives the impression that purebred Sorraia herds have also been formed in the U.S. and Canada, and this is not yet the case, but certainly possible in the future.

You've already done a nice job in phrasing the bit about preservation efforts elsewhere in this statement: >>and enthusiasts from several countries forming projects and herds to assist in the re-establishment of this breed from its current endangered status.<<

For now, I'd revert to the way the opening was before which simply added to the above >>Today the breed resides mainly in Portugal and Germany.<<  Down in the section of "20th Century and Today" you've given further info on what the additional preservation efforts are. It all reads well, I think, and ties it all up neatly.

Hey, thanks for inserting Altamiro's pix for me...shows the world much better what a Sorraia horse looks like--and it sure is nice to see all that green! We're so under a ton of snow just now!

I'm still putting together what I can find about wild vs feral...so far its beginning to seem like the Sorraia doesn't "legally" fit either category/description! But is definitely considered "ancestral" and "primitive".

The article is coming together better now and you gals have relieved my worry that Wikipedia would continue giving an inaccurate review of what the Sorraia horse and its history is. There may actually come a day when I don't bother you with added information and ticklish changes! I really appreciate the diligence you've shown to reading my references, suggestions and making the necessary edits. Thank you! Selona (talk) 21:28, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Organizing discussion
I'm losing track of all the threads above, so creating a new header. (Anyone else can too). Montanabw (talk) 07:23, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Photos, round 2
I'll try to clarify the bit on the foals' striping in the article. Montanabw (talk) 07:23, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I've added in a source for the new info, one of the ones that Selona provided above, and tweaking some other wording a bit, so things should be good now. Dana boomer (talk) 13:26, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Wild/feral
As for the wild/feral thing, the fact that the horses are now domesticated, trained, ridden and selectively bred DEFINITELY takes them out of the "wild" category and puts them squarely as "feral." (See feral, feral horse, wild horse, and most of all domestication of the horse articles). The reason the Przewalski's horse, for example, is a "true" wild horse is that the boogers just cannot be successfully domesticated! I WILL accept that the Sorraia is a "primitive" type of breed, and this does fit with the "four foundations" theory outlined at evolution of the horse. Montanabw (talk) 07:23, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Am also thinking that the Mongolian Horse might be another example of a domesticated, but primitive breed. Not sure, just a guess. If USA Spanish Mustangs are getting ID'd by DNA as Sorraia, (did I read that right?) then for sure we have a feral animal. Montanabw (talk) 07:29, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the difference might be that the stock that the Sorraia came from was never domesticated. It sounds like there were occasionally horses pulled out of the pack for use by local people (and conquistadors), but the herd itself was never managed and instead just left to run free.  I will agree that it may have been assisted in it's survival, however, by horses that escaped from the local people and turned feral, joining the original wild herd. I would also agree that TODAY the breed has been domesticated.  Is it possible for a breed to go from wild to domesticated to feral (as a free roaming, not-to-closely-managed population would probably be called)? Dana boomer (talk) 13:12, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Um, yes, sort of. At least wild a few thousand years ago, then left to run feral later on.  We call them Mustangs. (grin) We also call them  the Brumby, Chincoteague pony, Banker Horse. etc...LOL!  No seriously, obviously, some time about 5000 years ago, people started domesticating horses.  Some species or subspecies were able to be tamed, others weren't.  Most of the ones that weren't were hunted to extinction, with a few remnant populations of untamable true "wild" horses remaining today.  Sorry to rant, but when it comes to "wild" status, the rebuttable assumption is that everything is feral unless quite affirmatively proved otherwise. And I rant on this in part because I have seen the Andalusian crowd make similar claims for their "Pure Raza Espanola."  Likewise, Arabian aficionados claim a greater degree of absolute purity of bloodline than reality and research supports -- AND they used to make the "it's a separate subspecies" argument to boot.  This is a commonplace, understandable but totally romantic urge amongst preservation-oriented horse breeders. And it's ALL B.S. (said while grinning, ducking and running)


 * Now I am also convinced that while we could probably classify the Sorraia as a landrace (i.e. animals developed in accordance to habitat with minimal if any human intervention), BUT they are absolutely, positively feral if any of their ancestors were domesticated (long discussion amongst those who care about where one draws the line between tamed and domesticated, to what degree human selective breeding creates domestication, but will spare you all that one here! LOL!) The article itself verifies this:  if farmers pulled out a few, they can be domesticated.  If people are crossbreeding Spanish Mustangs, Spanish Mustangs are unquestionably domesticated (any horse that wound up in North America for any reason was descended from a domesticated horse that came over on a boat -- all "wild" prehistoric horse in the Americas died out at the end of the Ice Age).


 * If their ancestors were ever put to serious work by humans, they are capable of more than just being "tamed." (Zebras, for example, absolutely are undomesticatable, even though they are occasionally tamed and often selectively bred in zoos)  In particular, if they have so much as one drop of Barb blood, they CANNOT be "wild."  They MUST be feral. Barbs, as well as other oriental horses, were one of the earliest domesticated horse prototypes.  The Sorraia does have a lot of Tarpan characteristics, but that doesn't make it a Tarpan or a "true" wild horse.  Could it have been some sort of Barb/Tarpan crossbred? I don't know.  Possible (Conversely, I don't think the Pzrewalski can cross on domestic horses-- at least not create fertile offspring, they have a different number of chromosomes). We can probably avoid the whole debate by just discussion the bloodline sources without commentary on the wild/feral thing, but I absolutely, positively do not see any real evidence for true wild status.   Montanabw (talk) 03:20, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Montana, if Wikipedia determines its criteria for a "true wild horse" is the fact that it has no history of domestic "use", i.e. meaning that it never allowed itself to be a slave to mankind, then certainly, the Sorraia would not be classified as a wild horse.

The curious thing about the Przewalski horse is how much of its history shares similarities with that of the Sorraia. --the population that exists today stemmed from 12 -13 foundation horses

--significant genetic diversity has been lost through breed management tactics

--signs of domestication have become evident

--occasional white markings crop out, hinting at some impurity in the genes and is considered atypical for wild horses and therefore undesirable

oh, and "The population has a significant but incompletely documented contribution of genes from Mongolian domestic horses." ref:www.abu-naturschutz.de/_dnload/substitu.pdf Bunzel-Druke, Margret, (2001) "Ecological substitues for Wild horse", retrieved 27Dec08

You bet the Przewalski horse can cross with domestic horses and produce fertile offspring, (even says so in the Wikipedia article).

Reading up on the Przewalski has been illuminating, and the amount of human interference used to save this horse from extinction easily casts a shadow of domestication over the present populace, leading one to not be too off the mark to say those in captivity are domesticated and those which have been returned to the wild are feral, based on the criteria given in Wikipedia on these matters.

But this discussion is about the Sorraia horse. The Sorraia's ancestors have no documented history as a breed (and keep in mind the Iberians were obsessed with horse breeding, with extensive documentation of their domestic horses, if they had created this "breed" they would have documented it), they were hunted for sport, their hides were traded as commodities, they maintained incredible phenotypical uniformity (something you do not see in typical feral horse herds, unless humans cull to suit preferences) and their mtDNA possesses a phylogenetic cluster that is different than domestic horses. (I've already referenced these things repeatedly and will refrain from doing so again, unless there is some key element you just gotta have noted again within this particular context.) To sum up, this is a pretty unique horse that is not so easy to classify (especially when these classifications are fluid depending on who is doing the scientific research).

I still feel you can keep the Sorraia article out of the debate by defining him as "A representative of a primitive ancestral form of horse that existed in the southern regions of the Iberian Peninsula and historically has been considered part of the wild native fauna."

I'm off now to see what I can find out about Laplander's and their use of Reindeer...wondering if because they have been able to domesticate the Reindeer to serve them if the Reindeer is now termed "feral" rather than "wild". :-) Selona (talk) 20:08, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Wld/feral, round 2
(( "true wild horse" is the fact that it has no history of domestic "use", i.e. meaning that it never allowed itself to be a slave to mankind, then certainly, the Sorraia would not be classified as a wild horse.)) PRECISELY. ALL domestic animals have wild ancestors, somewhere, if you go back 5000 years or so, anyway...

Please do not be too angry at my position on the matter. I'm just the messenger. We can sure bring in some additional opinions, and I am open to evidence from scientific research, but it is very common for people who breed these ancient types of horses to want them to be separate species, to come untouched from a primitive prototype and so on...but they really aren't, no matter how fun and romantic he thought may be. (I spend too much of my wiki-life correcting that Mustang are NOT "wild horses" and that gray horses are not "white" Sigh...).

Taxonomists still classify the Przewalski as "wild," and my read of the article is that crossbred offspring are sterile, but I suppose there are a few exceptions, mules occasionally reproduce too. But that's not the entire point. If your parallels are accurate, then the stronger argument is that the Pzrewalski is feral, not that the Sorraia is wild. (Early domesticated horses were quite small and some appear to have been very Przewalski/Tarpan-looking) The Domestication article is particularly helpful to explain this, it points out that some things cannot be domesticated even if sometimes tamed or selectively bred (like zebras), and other things (like wheat and the wolf ancestor of the dog) may have had a random mutation in the wild that allowed some of them to be domesticated, at which point the species diverged from its wild predecessors. The six criteria at Domestication are considered pretty standard. The Sorraia fits them, the Pzrewalski doesn't, at least not yet.

I did insert that "primitive ancestral form" language into the intro, I think. And it is a good way to explain it. I do agree that they have primitive characteristics. But basically, if their ancestors were domesticated, or if you can bring them in out of the wild and they will behave themselves with some training, an animal that is CAPABLE of being domesticated, is not "wild" but feral. Pigeons are a great example. Most now pretty much live wild, but they are considered feral. Many cattle live in a half-wild state out here in the west, but are anything but "wild." They DO classify the dingo as wild, but that is in part because it has been separated from its domesticated ancestors for 3,500 years! I looked at reindeer, it appears that even though the European species is tamed, trained and herded around, they are not considered fully domesticated because they cannot reproduce successfully in captivity (apparently zoos don't count--else the tiger would not be "wild"), but they probably do provide an example of where the line is drawn. Sorraia, as your own examples prove, DO reproduce in captivity (again, zoos don't count, else zebras would be "feral') and they CAN be made into trained riding and working animals. Just like Mustangs.

So to say the Sorraia is not "wild" is not an insult--you can't really tame or train a true wild horse (such as a zebra) -- like wild cattle, such as the cape buffalo, they will behave in an aggressive manner and can never be relied upon in the way a domesticatable animal can! (Sort of like trained bears-- Ditto lions, tigers, and other predators used in circus acts. They are not domesticated, their nature does not allow them to be!)   Though, as you can see at Feral there is some wiggle room in the definition. There are naturalized wild species (like reindeer) AND the term landrace describes domesticated animals that have largely been shaped more by habitat than humans.

However, I suspect there are also political issues at stake - I suppose government funding for preservation efforts hinges on the idea that they are wild and free -- though the American Mustang, while an introduced species and clearly feral, is also argued to be a reintroduced species, replacing the wild ancestors of the horse that died out in the Ice Age...and is protected under Federal Law. But getting that law was tough, as most ranchers considered them to be varmits and scrubs, worth nothing but as horsemeat. It would have been easier if they were really "wild," but science and history proved otherwise. You still hear that argument. (See Brumby in particular -- the "reintroduced species" argument cannot be made in Australia, which apparently never had horses as a native species...). I am sympathetic, but cannot go along with what appears to be claims motivated more by hope than science at this point. Montanabw (talk) 00:29, 28 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Montana, I appreciate your further expansion of this little debate. I'm not of a mind to try to prove or disprove anything on this matter, rather just point out the grey areas...(though as far as the Przewalski cross-breds go, there is plenty of documentation of fertile offspring, he was even used in early attempts to fix an upright mane on the recreated Tarpan).  FWIW, it wasn't a phrase that I came up with: "The Sorraia is a wild horse, as opposed to a feral horse, because it was never domesticated."  This wording always troubled me and is something I offered new phrasing on in the last review I gave the article. It's true from the study I've undertaken, my perception is the Sorraia is a remnant population of a naturally occurring wild fauna from Southern Iberia, and that he has no history of being bred domestically, although it has for sure been used for domestic purposes.  This is an important distinction--the Sorraia is not a man-made breed.  Certainly, since d'Andrade recovered the remaining specimens and spearheaded their preservation, the present population has been manipulated by man through the choices made to best preserve the unique genes of an ancestral form of horse.


 * I've provided solid references to support the above description of the Sorraia and at this point in the game, I will have to quit harping on the matter and trust that you and Dana can word things accurately in the next edit. If you're convinced you must define him as feral, please phrase things in the next edit in a way that refrains from creating an illusion that the Sorraia horses came from a man-made domestic breed of horse which escaped captivity and reclaimed a wild existence similar to the North American Mustang.  And please know you don't have to duck and run...I'm not the type of gal who swings fists over these matters.Selona (talk) 13:25, 28 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm OK with sort of weaseling on the issue for now. As long as we don't call it "wild," I won't insist that we insert the word "feral" in there.  Who knows if they did domesticate them 1000 years ago and then let them run loose, or what?  Wish we had a time machine!  (smile)   Montanabw (talk) 00:41, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Anything Else?
Selona, I think I've changed all of the things that you've mentioned, but if you could check to make sure I haven't missed anything vital, that would be great. Because this article is in very good shape at the moment, I'm considering nominating it for GA status after the first of the year, so I'd like to trim any loose ends and fix any problem areas over the next week or so. More input from everyone would be great. I'm going out of town for the next couple of days and won't have internet access, but when I get back I'll be happy to fix anything that ya'll have brought up in the meantime. Dana boomer (talk) 13:28, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Ladies, yes there are still a few things that can be improved upon and some wording which with a little tweeking won't be so misleading, which I will give attention to over the next few days, since we get to stay put for the holiday (just the way I like it!). I'll have my suggestions and references ready for your review when you get back Dana.  Merry Christmas!  Selona (talk) 15:45, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Further Considerations and Suggestions
Dana and Montana, here are some other elements I felt ought to be reviewed to further bring this article up to a suitable standard:

From the opening paragraph:

Remove: >>>It was a true wild horse breed when it was rediscovered by scientists in the early 20th century.<<<

Suggested instead: This horse represents a primitive ancestral type, historically considered part of the native wild fauna of the region with no prior documentation as a manmade breed. A remnant population of these horses was discovered by a Portuguese zoologist in the early 20th century.

References: these footnotes all contribute something to the statement I've formed:

6, 14, 12( on pg.65) and Gonzaga, P. 2004 "A History of the Horse" J.A. Allen, London. p. 39 ISBN 0 85131 867 3

Under characteristics:

>>>The breed is related to the Lusitano and Andalusian breeds (including the Carthusian strain of Andalusian),[4] and more distantly related to the Barb horse, probably through a prehistoric land bridge at Gibraltar.[5]<<<

We should look at this more deeply: In the footnote reference (4) "The Origins of Iberian Horses Assessed via Mitochondrial DNA" in the opening statement it says, "The Southern Iberian horses are assumed to have a common origin with the Barb horse..."

however, under "results" it says, "Neither of the distances indicates a clear genetic differentiation between breeds, except for Sorraias."

and under "discussion" it says, "Our results show the existence of different genetic pools in Iberian horse breeds." "Results from the present analyses did not confirm the expected role of donor population for both Barb and Exmoor breeds."

"Furthermore, the hypothesis that the Sorraias represent the ancestors of the present Southern Iberian horses would not be well supported on a maternal genetic basis. Haplotypes present in Sorraias do not cluster with the more frequent mtDNA haplotypes in Iberian horses (our cluster Ia), although they are not a genetic rarity in the total Iberian horse population.  However, the hypothesis cannot be completely excluded; Sorraias have undergone a significant bottleneck, and only two mtDNA founder lineages remain in the breed, thus probably affecting our ability of ascertaining this task without certainty."

"In conclusion, the present study reveals that the Iberian Peninsula is not a contact zone, at a mtDNA level, between Northern European and Northern African horse populations."

My take on all this is that more study needs to be undertaken before statements of relatedness can be made with distinction.

Suggestion: You might write instead that the relationships between the Sorraia with other Southern Iberian horses as well as the North African Barb horse is presently being researched on a genetic as well as geographic cross over basis.

Under History

>>The Sorraia originally developed in the southwestern part of the Iberian peninsula, north of Lisbon.[3][10] <<

Suggestion: I would remove "north of Lisbon" as it is too suggestive of a distinct portion of the southwestern part of the Iberian Peninsula limited to Portugal, when actually their range once was all of the southern regions, including Spain. By the time d'Andrade discovered the remnant population their habitat was decidedly limited to the region you've indicated. But I think here you want to define where the Sorraias ancestors evolved, which would be in the south of the Iberian Peninsula. Reference: "The primeval form-III horse's stronghold was in the southern part of the Iberian Peninsula, where the climate and environment stayed ideal. Oelke pg. 29 and footnote (4)

>>The breed takes its name from the Sorraia River in Portugal.<<

Suggestion: I would not place this sentence in this particular paragraph, since you are still relaying the ancient origins and this particular name wasn't given to these horses until later. It would better go down where you talk about d'Andrade's encounter with them or in the "Naming" segment.

>>The Sorraia is a wild horse, as opposed to a feral horse, because it was never domesticated. It was originally believed to have been the primary ancestor of the Andalusian and Lusitano horses, and through these two breeds an ancestor to many other European and American breeds,[5] but this has been proven untrue by recent DNA studies.[11]<<

Suggestion: To resolve (or side-step) the debate over whether the Sorraia represents the modern descendent of native wild horses or native feral horses, and deal with the fact that the Sorraia has been used domestically and is now considered a domesticated horse I would write this segment differently and only hint at the mtDNA studies which should be elaborated upon under the heading of "20th Century and Today".

How about something more like this: The Sorraia is a descendent of the primitive ancestral form of horse which was part of the naturally occurring wild fauna of Southern Iberia and has been postulated to have significant influence in the development of the Andalusian and Lusitano and many other modern breeds, something research with mtDNA is beginning to explore. These present footnotes support this statement, (4) and (14)

In the paragraph discussing the present day North American mustangs: >>DNA analysis has been performed on mustangs in the western United States that show similar and identical DNA patterns between the mustangs and the Sorraia breed.[5]<<

It's the Mitochondria DNA analysis that is being used and it has demonstrated that "some" mustangs show the presence mtDNA represented in the maternal lineages of the Sorraia.

Ref: "Through mtDNA sequencing done by the Institute for Molecularbiological Diagnosis (now Biopsytec Analitic) in Germany, a relatedness of Sorraias and certain mustangs was scientifically proven; the same holds true for a relatedness of certain mustangs and Andalusians and Lusitanos. This means that there are indeed mustangs which trace back at least in their maternal line to the Sorraia population, that others go back to the ancestor of the Andalusian, and there are also some which stem from the ancestor of the Lusitano. It stands to reason that if this is the case, many will in fact also go back in their paternal lines to the Sorraia and other respective ancestors, even though we can’t prove it (yet)."

Oelke, H. "What about mtDNA" http://www.spanish-mustang.org/mustang.htm retrieved on 26Dec08

Under "20th Century and Today"

>> In 1920, Dr. Ruy d'Andrade first encountered the Sorraia horse during a hunting trip in the Portuguese lowlands. The breed had survived as a wild horse due to the inaccessible nature of their habitat, which had been used as a hunting preserve by Portuguese royalty until the early 1900s.[11] At the time of d'Andrade's initial meeting the breed, the horses were ill-regarded by native farmers, although they were considered hardy native fauna that lived off of the uncultivated lands and salt marshes in the local river valleys. Peasant farmers of the area would occasionally capture the horses and use them for agricultural work, including threshing grain and herding bulls.[12]<<

I would rewrite the second sentence something like this: Surviving in a rather inaccessible landscape, used as a hunting preserve by Portuguese royalty until the early 1900's, this remnant herd of primitive ancestral horses continued to live a wild existence.

The rest of the paragraph is a little cumbersome, but I'm not finding a better way at the moment to suggest better navigation through the information.

Later,

I would add: A number of research studies using the mtDNA of the Sorraia have documented it possesses a unique phylogentic cluster distinct from other Iberian horses, the implications of which are the subject of continued exploration in conjunction with morphological, physiological, and cultural characteristics to better understand the relatedness of equine breeds. Ref: C. Luis, c. Bastos-Silveira, J. Costa-Ferreira, E.G. Cothran & M.M. Oom. (2006) "A lost Sorraia maternal lineage found in the Lusitano horse breed", retrieved 26Dec08 and also footnotes: (15)

>>In the United States, a project has been conceived that is attempting to help save the Sorraia breed. The members of this project have gathered Spanish mustangs that have been DNA tested and proven to have Sorraia ancestry, and are breeding them in an attempt to help preserve the Sorraia breed.[17]<<

It should be mtDNA, not DNA.

As an aside, I haven't said anything about this group in the U.S., but having studied their website, its curious to me that they claim to be breeding based on the positive identification of mtDNA which is only traceable through maternal lines. Whatever stallions they might be using presently cannot be identified in this manner. Also, their foundation stallion is a roan grullo...not something that one finds in any of the purebred Sorraia horses, however, this group has made allowances for the aberrant roan color as long as they fit in with the pedigree documentation they are using to track bloodlines. This group may wind up having something to contribute, but it is based from the get go on accepting some non-Sorraia features, which I find troubling when talking about preserving a rare phenotype in the hopes of consolidating a specific genetic heritage.

I hope you could follow along with these suggestions without getting a tight head...mine gets tight every time I try work on this stuff! But its an important endeavor, to provide as accurate information as can be found that yet fits the criteria of Wikipedia.

Selona (talk) 19:51, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Assorted comments: 1)  mtDNA is only traceable via the maternal line.  It makes it very useful for some things, like finding original ancestors, but useless for other things (like if the horse is a crossbred on the sire's side).  2)  I have to admit that the Spanish Mustang = Sorraia thing bugs me too. Precisely the limitations of mtDNA--maybe they do have a Sorraia mare in common as a maternal ancestor, but who knows what stallions were mixed in, eh?? (grin) Overall, I'm happy with where things are going. Dana needs cookies and milk for all her work! (Selona, a wiki-homework assignment for you: Find barnstars and other awards, and give Dana a wiki-cookie! --I once gave her some wiki-chocolate!  Or maybe she wants a wiki-beer --but NOT at work!  LOL! )   Montanabw (talk) 00:52, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Anything else?
OK, I think I've made all of the changes requested above. I think I've managed to almost completely sidestep the wild/feral issue, but please check to see if I've missed anything. I've done some rearranging of information so that information on similar subjects is in the same place. Please let me know if there is still stuff to be changed. Thanks for all of the references you've given us...they've been a huge help in making the article better. Dana boomer (talk) 15:27, 28 December 2008 (UTC)


 * It's been a difficult day her on the island--extreme swings in the weather have caused us a lot of trouble. Good thing our Sorraia and Sorraia Mustangs are such scrappers and can deal with the harshness we've been continually pummeled with this winter.


 * There are still some tweekings, Dana...I appreciate your bearing with me.


 * For now,this is the only one I have time for tonight. I'll pick up on the others tomorrow (I have good cave art references for you to come!)


 * From the opening:

>>Although occasionally used by native farmers for centuries, the breed was rediscovered by scientists in the early 20th century. <<


 * Please re-word more like this: "Although occasionally captured and used by native farmers for centuries, a remnant population of these nearly extinct horses was discovered by a Portuguese zoologist in the early 20th century."


 * They were rediscovered by one man, Dr. Ruy d'Andrade, not by "scientists" plural. And its important to relay that at the time of his discovery these horses were nearly extinct.Selona (talk) 23:03, 28 December 2008 (UTC)


 * This should be done. Looking forward to your remaining comments. Dana boomer (talk) 13:46, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Dana, here's what I have for today. I see you've provided a citation for the cave art, so probably don't need what references I'm giving, but I'll included them anyhow.  I'll do one more look through when I've gotten away from the computer for awhile, right now, I'm a little cross-eyed--I'm sure you and Montana know that feeling!


 * Under Color:

It should be added that the Sorraia has a bi-colored manes and tails with lighter colored hairs that fringe the outside of the longer growing black hair. Ref:

footnote (6) and also Gonzaga, P. (2004) "A History of the Horse Vol. 1, The Iberian Horse From Ice Age to Antiquity, pg. 45. J.A. Allen, London ISBN 0 85131 867 3

Under History:

>>and its ancestors are shown in prehistoric cave art.[9]<<

Suggested instead: and Paleolithic parietal art images in the region depict a distinct likeness.

Ref:

Discussing the discovery of the caves at La Pileta, Spain, Sylvia Loch writes: "Finally, in 1924 the Spanish government was spurred into taking steps to declare La Pileta a protected area, and today the caves, with their wealth of prehistoric equestrian art, are open to the public. The horses portrayed are very similar to the Sorraia." Loch, Sylvia (1986) "The Royal Horse of Europe" pg. 37. J.A. Allen, London ISBN 0-85131-422-8

After quoting Miklos Jankovich discussing cave art images of horses in Altamira and Lascaux, Gonzaga remarks, "Very interesting is the description above of 'vestigial stripes on the legs and blurred marks on the shoulder;, typical of the Sorraia of Portugal. It is also important to repeat that during the Palaeolithic, such a rich and varied collection of art and such strong proof of the presence of indigenous wild horses existed nowhere else other than Iberia and Southern France."

Gonzaga, P. (2004) "A History of the Horse Vol. 1, The Iberian Horse From Ice Age to Antiquity, pg. 87. J.A. Allen, London ISBN 0 85131 867 3

Under "The 20th Century and Today"

>> In the United States, a project has been conceived that is attempting to help save the Sorraia breed. The members of this project have gathered Spanish mustangs that have been mtDNA tested and proven to have Sorraia ancestry, and are breeding them in an attempt to help preserve the Sorraia breed.[17] <<

Hmmm, let's work on this a bit to better reflect the efforts this group is undertaking.

The members of this project have gathered Spanish mustangs that through mtDNA testing show a genetic relationship with the Sorraia and are breeding them according to both genotype and phenotype in an attempt to help preserve what they are calling the "American Sorraia".

Ref: http://www.sorraiamustangs.us/page2/AmericanSorraiaMustangs.html retrieved 29Dec08

Selona (talk) 20:25, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I made a couple real minor tweaks. Things look pretty good to me so far. As to the various comments, the bi-colored mane thing is typical of dun coloration, so if mentioned, it just needs to be tied to dun genetics, not as a unique Sorraia thing (see Fjord horse for another example of a dun-colored primitive-looking breed)  If the "Sorraia Mustang" people want to call them "Sorraia Mustang," or "American Sorraia," I'd use whatever they are calling themselves, and make any clarifications as needed.  I don't buy the claim that indigenous wild horses only existed in Iberia and Southern France, or is that what they said...  They were just the places where people made really great cave paintings that have been preserved, agreed, but the horse itself was first domesticated from wild ancestors in Mesopotamia...fossil evidence gets us to that conclusion.
 * Yup, I'll make the above changes in the morning, with sources, and we can tweak from there. I'm sleepy now, so going to bed in a bit. Dana boomer (talk) 01:43, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Allright, all of this should be done. I've tried to integrate both sets of comments (Montanabw's and Selona's), so please let me know if I've completely screwed anything up.  Also, please let me know if there are any further tweaks that need to be made in other areas.  Thanks! Dana boomer (talk) 13:55, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

One cumbersome segment left
From "Relationship to other breeds"

Does this wording seem a bit incongruent?

>>The Sorraia was originally believed to have been the primary ancestor of the Andalusian and Lusitano horses, and through these two breeds an ancestor to many other European and American breeds,[12] but this has been proven untrue by recent mtDNA studies.[13] The Sorraia is, however, related to the Lusitano and Andalusian breeds (including the Carthusian strain of Andalusian).<<

On the one hand it says that genetic testing has disproved that the Sorraia was the primary ancestor of the Andy and Luso, yet it says they are related.

Indulge me in a review of something I quoted earlier regarding these studies of relatedness:

--"Furthermore, the hypothesis that the Sorraias represent the ancestors of the present Southern Iberian horses would not be well supported on a maternal genetic basis. Haplotypes present in Sorraias do not cluster with the more frequent mtDNA haplotypes in Iberian horses (our cluster Ia), although they are not a genetic rarity in the total Iberian horse population. However, the hypothesis cannot be completely excluded; Sorraias have undergone a significant bottleneck, and only two mtDNA founder lineages remain in the breed, thus probably affecting our ability of ascertaining this task without certainty." "In conclusion, the present study reveals that the Iberian Peninsula is not a contact zone, at a mtDNA level, between Northern European and Northern African horse populations."

This quote was out of the research paper titled, "The Origins of Iberian Horses Assessed via Mitochondrial DNA" ,now showing up as footnote (18).

I don't think it is accurate to say that the Sorraia's ancestral relationship to the Luso and Andy has been "proven untrue", rather that results thus far are inconclusive and research continues. And the fact that a lost maternal line of the Sorraia has been discovered in the Luso suggests a new angle for them to pursue.

I'd be careful in saying definitively that there is or isn't a strong relationship, seems they keep finding new potentialities all the time and one finding is later replaced by another or altered by another...

Do you ladies think it would be better to stick with simply relaying that ongoing research using mtDNA continues to provide clues to the genetic relatedness of the Sorraia and its influence on the Andalusian and Lusitano and other modern breeds?

Thank you for clarifying the American Sorraia project...now readers can clearly see a distinction between what these folks are doing with select Spanish Mustangs versus what has been preserved in Portugal with the purebred Sorraia horses.

I think this is about as good as it can be for now...unless something suddenly reveals itself that I hadn't noticed before. Selona (talk) 15:54, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, so I've done some work on the section, and as it stands now, it basically says that they're related, but research is ongoing as to how much they're related. I hope this works, and was kind of what you were thinking of. Dana boomer (talk) 16:15, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay...I think I can live with this version. Now...where is that Wiki-beer Montana mentioned? LOL Selona (talk) 17:21, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Hehe...I can't seem to find that template for some reason. Wonder if they deleted it... No matter, I'm still underage (in the US at least) anyways :) Thanks again for all your help. I'm probably going to nominate the article for GA status at some point in the next week, so please feel free to drop by that discussion when it happens.  And also please feel free to drop any more comments here if you come upon areas in the article that you'd like to see tweaked. Dana boomer (talk) 18:07, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Here's one anyway! This one is both legal and on the house! Montanabw (talk) 03:54, 31 December 2008 (UTC)


 * And this for a chuckle: I KNEW this was out there somewhere: The heritage of the Pura Raza Española (P.R.E.): "The Pura Raza Española (P.R.E.) has been linked with the history and the culture of Andalusia since time immemorial. There are cave drawings dating back to 5,000 BC found in the caves of Altamira and Canforos de Penarubia in northeastern Spain depicting native horses whose body types are remarkably like today's horse. These drawings depict the predecessors of the Pure Spanish Horse."  i.e. the Andalusian horse, which looks SOOOO much like the Sorraia (and they spit tacks when one suggests they have Arabian ancestry, but then, where DID all those grays come from, eh?  LOL!).  This page is an example of the romanticized nonsense one finds all over the place...I believe the site hints that they are faster than a speeding bullet and can leap tall buildings in a single bound.   Sorry, just had to vent.  Sigh. Gimme that beer...  Montanabw (talk) 05:48, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Of Romanticizing History and Virtual Beer
Montana, I see you're an amber ale kind of gal, eh? I appreciated the pint of Guinness you sent me in my talk page--it was just what I needed. :-)
 * Actually more of a merlot person, but married to a microbrew aficionado, so I understand the ambers better. LOL!  Montanabw (talk) 17:20, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Some sources I've studied suggest that it was the Berber (Barb), not the Arabian that helped shape the famed Spanish horse of the Royal courts. And some sources say it was the ancestral primitive horse we now see represented in the Sorraia who did some migrating over to North Africa in prehistoric times, spreading that convex profile and propensity for extreme collection.
 * I don't think anyone has studied the Arabian influence on Spanish horses in terms of mtDNA one way or the other. And I agree there are clear conformational differences in the Barb and Arab type -- not just profile, but Arabs, for example, are rarely gaited, the tailsets are completely different, etc.   I know of DNA studies clearly showing Andalusian/Barb interbreeding on both sides of Gibralter, who knows which way that started.  We DO know that Islamic invaders preferred mares as war mounts, though.  There are also clear historical records of Islamic rulers establishing Arabian studs in lands they controlled.  But, how much crossbreeding actually occurred --in BOTH directions-- is probably speculative.  (I suspect that -- humans being prone to human error and horses having the ability to do what comes naturally without consulting a pedigree chart-- Spanish horses, Barbs AND Arabians all have a few more "impure" animals in their respective woodpiles than breeders want to admit!)   On the other hand, oriental influence is there:  DNA studies on the gray gene (see Gray (horse) have recently shown that ALL gray horses are descended from a single ancestor, albeit probably one that lived thousands of years ago, so the only real question is when, where and to what degree the oriental horse prototype met the Tarpan prototype.  History suggests such genetic mixing could have occurred multiple times in human history and prehistory-- Wasn't the strait of Gibralter solid ground during some points of the last Ice Age (?), but also in antiquity you have the journeys of the Phoenicians, then the military campaigns of Hannibal, later comes the Islamic invasions of Spain, later we have documentation of deliberate imports of Arabians to Spain for crossing on Andalusians in the 19th century (the PRE people particularly hate to admit that last one one!) and so on.  So the mystery is yet to be fully solved!    Montanabw (talk) 17:20, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

--"Contrary to popular opinion, therefore, the Iberian horse was the likely forefather to the Barb and not vice versa. This is not so controversial as it may sound.  The difference between this author's account  of the barb and several others which exist indicating a contrary conclusion, is simply that many recorders omit the foundation period and only start their research at the time of the Moorish Conquest of Spain when indeed fresh Barb blood was brought into the Peninsula.  What is not explained is that this Barb blood had probably come from the Peninsula in the first place.  It would be more accurate to say that at the time of the Moorish Conquest, Barb blood was 're-introduced' to the Iberian Peninsula." Ref: Loch, Sylvia. "The Royal Horse of Europe" pg.50. J.A. Allen, London 1986.
 * Hm. The famed chicken or egg question.  Note my comments above.   Montanabw (talk) 17:20, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

But sources say the Arabian has had minglings with the Barb as well, though to look at them morphologically, the stamp of the old Iberian has the greater resonance.
 * I suspect that climate and geography DO have a strong influence on what body types survive in a given area. I also find it amusing that neither the Barb nor Arab aficionados seem to want to look very hard at the DNA, neither may like what they find!  LOL!  (And I say this as an Arabian horse aficionado!) They did a DNA study just on mare lines within the Arabian breed and found that the alleged "strain" of various horses didn't match up to a common ancestor, as should have occurred if they were all descended from the "Al Khamsa"  Methinks Akmed the horse trader may have had his fingers crossed when he swore to various European nobles that the horses he was selling to them were pure as the driven show -- LOL!  (Great account of this in Homer Davenport's book -- a guy swore his horses were purebred until another Bedouin asked him to swear by Allah the Qu'ran, at which point he changed his tune!  LOL!)

It has been the habit to romanticize the origins or equines probably since the first human fell in love with a horse and surely this has been one factor muddying up the clarity of historic fact (if historic fact can ever be crystal clear). For whatever reason, much of early Portuguese history has been overlooked, and the influence of the Arabian has been habitually copied and pasted into many historical accounts of the development of the Iberian horse. That some authors now are looking at Iberia with a more comprehensive lens and taking into account the relative moderation in climate and isolation that was maintained during the last ice age, it will be interesting to see what further postulations come forth regarding the ancestral horses which developed in this region.
 * Agreed. See also the "four foundations" theory, a simplified verson of Eberhart.  We mention it here in evolution of the horse and domestication of the horse.  Montanabw (talk) 17:20, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

What fascinates me is that atavistic characteristics resurface as readily as they do in certain breeds of horses. Dana, I was sent photos from a Paso breeder in Canada that had two grulla mares with considerable Sorraia phenotypes. That primitive ancestral equine type III (Ebhardt's classification) is a persistent seed from the past that likes to root and flower even in these modern times.
 * Agreed. Again, I think the concept of a landrace is interesting too -- that geography shapes morphology.  The various colonial Spanish horses have a lot of similarities. See also Jennet, the ancient Spanish gaited horse...  Montanabw (talk) 17:20, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

See, this is what happens when one sips a beer while working...that's enough romanticizing of history from this gal. I'd better go get some coffee. Selona (talk) 12:57, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * BURP! (LOL!)   Montanabw (talk) 17:20, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Przewalski's Horse source
I have restored the prewalski horse link, as the source explicitly claims that. If that source (Bongianni, Maurizio (editor) (1988). Simon & Schuster's Guide to Horses and Ponies. New York, NY: Simon & Schuster, Inc.. p. 154. ISBN 0671660683.) is deemed unreliable because it contains incorrect information, please remove everything from that source. You cannot cheri pick what you like. Based on looking into the recent genetic literature, the idea that this species is even remotely related to the Tarpan has been abondant, and there is clear evidence that this breed shares it gene pool with the other breeds in the Iberian peninsula, especially the Lusitano. See C.Luís, C. Bastos-Silveira, J. Costa-Ferreira, E.G. Cothran & M.M. Oom (2006) A lost Sorraia maternal lineage found in the Lusitano horse breed. Journal of Animal Breeding and Genetics. Volume 123 Issue 6, Pages 399 - 402 The insertion of the reference in the first place is a spill over from a heavy discussion whether Tarpan should be a disambig page because it has been used for many more horse breeds than just the European Wild Horse. The result is that various articles now have been inserted with generally very old references in which someone used the word Tarpan in context with a breed or even coat color. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 13:33, 2 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Kim, I apologize for my knee-jerk edit. I should have appealed to the true wiki-editors to undo that reference to Przewalski horse...I'm not an editor, just a concerned contributor.  (It looked easy and I thought I could do it.)  We went over this so called "resemblance" that source said existed between the Sorraia and Przewalski horse.  Please check up under the section "One I Missed" to see what you think.Selona (talk) 14:14, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
 * No reason to apologize. You made a perfect valid edit, and I disagreed, so I explained things here. That is just how it goes. In that way, I do not have more rights than you here at wikipedia. The difference is that I maybe have a bit more to offer is that I do phylogenetic studies and have a professional background using genetics. The PNAS 2002 article, if anything, links the Sorraia to the Przewalski's Horse based on mtDNA. The issues is that many older sources tried with resemblance to deduct what the ancestor would be, but if you look in the modern genetic studies you will see that the border between wild horses and domseticated horses is very difficult to draw. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 14:30, 2 February 2009 (UTC)


 * And, for anyone who cares, this is EXACTLY what I was concerned about when I was dubious about any modern horse breed article claiming primitive ancestry for itself Somehow I just KNEW this all was going to happen.  (Long, martyred sigh from the Cassandra of WPEQ...)  I know, no one cares, no one ever listens, so I'm going to just crawl off and die in the cold now... sniff...    Montanabw (talk) 23:07, 2 February 2009 (UTC)  (OK, so really grinning, ducking and running!)

Clarifying Preservation efforts in the U.S.
In reading through the new version of the History segment of the Sorraia article (which has swallowed up other segments), I am reminded to ask editors to please make a correction to the last bit that mentions the stallions which went to the U.S and Canada and the American Sorraia project...the way it presently reads makes it appear that they are related and they are not. I offer an alternative wording, which I hope will be incorporated instead:
 * Two Sorraia stallions were imported to the United States in the early 2000s. In 2006, another Sorraia stallion made his way to North America, this time to Canada where a Sorraia Mustang Preserve has been established on Manitoulin Island in Ontario.[22] Most recently, unrelated to existing preservation efforts which work in conjunction with the Sorraia Mustang Studbook [use same ref. as footnote #4], a project has been conceived by a consortium of breeders in the United States that is attempting to establish a separate network and studbook of Spanish Mustangs that through mtDNA testing show a genetic relationship with the Sorraia and are breeding them according to both genotype and phenotype in an attempt to help preserve what they are calling the "American Sorraia".[23]

Also I expect an editor will notice the references have a red flag waving since the last tinkering there, something got missed and there is an alert showing.Selona (talk) 18:38, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I've reworded according to what you have above. I made a few tweaks to fix a run-on sentence, but don't think I changed the meaning at all. Please let me know if I did! The funky ref has also been fixed (although not by me, I don't know who did it). Dana boomer (talk) 19:32, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, Dana, that looks better.Selona (talk) 19:59, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Evolution and Taxonomy
Please accept my apologies, given that we seem close once again to stabilizing this article, you will likely be exasperated with me--yet, I feel I must share some concerns regarding the edit done in the Evolution and Taxonomy segment of the article.

>>The relationship between the Sorraia and other breeds remains largely unknown, as does its relationship to other ancient horses, such as the Tarpan and the Przewalski's Horse. The Sorraia originally developed in the southern part of the Iberian peninsula.[8] They have been shown to be related to southern Iberian breeds, such as the Lusitano and Andalusian breeds (including the Carthusian strain of Andalusian), and morphologically differentiated from some northern Iberian breeds, such as the Garrano, Asturcon and Pottok.[9]<<

I find this portion a bit conflicting, how can the relationship between the Sorraia and other breeds be largely unknown in the first sentence, but in the third sentence it says they have been shown to be related to southern Iberian breeds? I would phrase the first sentence thusly to get rid of the conflicting statement and the redundancy of the word "relationship":

Consider instead: "The connection between the Sorraia and other breeds is presently inconclusive as is its relationship to other equine subspecies such as the Tarpan and the Przewalski's Horse."

Not being a geneticist, I certainly do not aim to bring into question Kim's perception of what the Jansen, et al PNAS paper is saying (her perception may be more right than theirs based on her reading of the data, I don't know), but I do feel that what she is suggesting misinterprets their findings. While she may not agree with the assessment and conclusions Jansen has published, I don't think it is appropriate to put her interpretation into the article instead of theirs. As I already relayed I have connected with Oelke who relayed to me that he and Jansen interpret their results in a way that shows the Przewalski is NOT related to any other horse because its mtDNA was not found in any other horse. When Kim publishes a study articulating her interpretation, we can then quote her, for now, we are referencing Jansen, et al and their statements are different than hers it seems to me. Let's compare:

Kim edited this into the article: >>Genetic studies to date have been inconclusive about the closest relative of the Sorraia. In one study, mitochondrial DNA showed a close relationship with the Przewalski's Horse,[11]<<

Jansen et, al have written: "Nevertheless, all three Przewalski's horse's mtDNA types are closely related and, in agreement with Ishida et al. (10), we confirm that these types are not found in any other breed. "

Kim edited this into the article: >>These conflicting analyses are the result of extreme genetic bottlenecking of rare breeds such as the Sorraia and Przewalski's Horse.[11] <<

Jansen et, al have written: "Does the greater diversity in domesticated horse mtDNA vis-à-vis wild Alaskan and Przewalski‘s horse mtDNA indicate that more than one wild horse population was recruited for domestication, or alternatively, does the difference in diversities imply that the wild Alaskan and Przewalski‘s horses have undergone genetic bottlenecks unrepresentative of ancient wild horses? The former possibility appears more likely"

I'm sure you can find a way to once again relay that genetic research is presenting interesting, yet inconclusive results and further studies are necessary to determine with certainty the degree of relatedness of the Sorraia to other horses, without having to misconstrue these gentlmen's published results.Selona (talk) 13:04, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Selona, I understand your confusion, but I think the main issue here is that two fundamental different things get confused. The two items are "genetic distance" and "lineage specificity", aka whether certain breed/group/subspecies mitochondrial haplotypes form unique clades. As for the latter, Przewalski horses have hapolotype belonging to cluster A2, and that haplotype is unique to that subspecies, and that is the claim of lineage specificity is in the PNAS paper. The Sorraia has type A1 or JSO41-type (which in later publications seems to be called A7). A group having a unique haplotype (lineage specificity) does say exactly nothing about the relatedness with other groups (genetic distance) as that is a matter of how many mutations difference there is between groups. That is a matter of how many mutations are found between the two types. Jansen et al do not write anything about which breed is most closely related to the przewalski (genetic distance). Their figure 2 shows that it takes exactly ONE mutation to the closest domestic horse breed, which has haplotype JSO41, the Sorraia. Using the same figure, genetic distances within the domestic horse go up to 10 and more mutations, a multitude to the genetic distance between the Przewalski and Sorraia.
 * Conclusion, both claims are correct. The Przewalski forms a unique cluster not shared with other breeds (lineage specificity) AND the Sorraia is the closest relative among the domestic horse (genetic distance). So, for you to claim that I have misconstrued these gentlemen's published results is incorrect as they are not conflicting, and supporting data for both claims is found in their own paper. If you really want to know, ask Oelke the following question: "Which haplotype, and related to that, which horse breed has the shortest genetic distance to the Przewalski's Horse based on the 2002 PNAS article?" -- Kim van der Linde at venus 17:44, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Kim, thank you for you nicely detailed explanation. "The Przewalski forms a unique cluster not shared with other breeds (lineage specificity) AND the Sorraia is the closest relative among the domestic horse (genetic distance)." If you had written something more akin to this in the Sorraia article, I may not have felt the PNAS paper was being misperceived. You didn't address the other element regarding what they had to say about the bottleneck effect on the results and the way you phrased it in the article. I'd feel much better about what you wrote if you simple altered it thusly: "These conflicting analyses may be the result of extreme genetic bottlenecking of rare breeds such as the Sorraia and Przewalski's Horse, or may indicate that more than one wild horse type relation is possible[11]" which appears to be what the reference is saying, at least to me. Whatever other inquiries you might have regarding the PNAS paper are likely better put directly to Mr. Oelke. His email address can be found on his website.Selona (talk) 22:03, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Selona, I have updated the section to clarify that the bottleneck effectively obscures the origins of the species. I cannot access a server with an article that I want to read before saying more on this, maybe later today or tomorrow it is back online.-- Kim van der Linde at venus 03:29, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Now that I was on it, I actually rewrote much more of it, better reflecting what the papers actually say. I used a few names that were used in papers, and maybe some people can fix those, or they are good articles for DYK as they would be new. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 05:57, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Lingering Concerns and Disagreements
I'm surprised that overnight this article seems to have suddenly passed its review. I want to go on record that there are still elements that I am in disagreement with, which I hope will be yet considered. I will be listing these disagreements here throughout the day.

1. In the "Characteristics" segment, the caption under Altamiro's profile photo is wrong. The convex facial profile is not the same as a Roman nose, rather you'd have to say "Roman head". As I wrote very carefully before in section 24:11 of these discussions (under phenotype), the convex feature a is continuous arch beginning at the poll, most pronounced just below the eye and ending at the nostrils. I have a mule who has a Roman nose, the rest of his profile is broad and flat. Please change this to either "Roman Head" or just leave the Roman phrase out all together.Selona (talk) 13:01, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

2. In the "Evolution and Taxonomy" segment it now says, "  Morphologically, the Sorraia is closely related to the Gallego and the Asturcon,[10]"

The reference is not one that I can access or read, since it is not written in English, but I disagree with it, even though it appears to be the type of science paper which wiki-editors favor as the best references. At any rate from what I can find out the Gallego horse is the Spanish equivalent of the Portuguese Garrano horse and as you can see from these photos, does not show morphlogical relatedness to the Sorraia, their morphology is vastly different in bone structure and color. Ref: http://www.geocities.com/aacccl/garrano.htm

Photo of Asturcon horse:

Photo of Garrano horse: http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.lovasok.hu/images/Lofajtak/garrano06.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.lovasok.hu/index.php%3Fi%3D8493&h=195&w=260&sz=20&tbnid=4sxhALO_Bqk32M::&tbnh=84&tbnw=112&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgarrano&usg=___35rW4pmKXMF2gq9N9bE1_tSK8M=&ei=59GOSYr6LJC4MsqUuakL&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=4&ct=image&cd=1

Morphology via the wiki-link says: "The term morpology in biology refers to the outward appearance (shape, structure, colour, pattern) of an organism or taxon and its component parts."

I do not see the morphological resemblance of the Sorraia to these two horses and so stand in disagreement with this sentence in the article.Selona (talk) 13:13, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The morphology article at wikipedia is one of those examples where my students get the wrong idea and why I do not allow them to cite anything from wikipedia. I fixed it using some decent ref's. Morphology refers to the inward and outward structure of an animal, and the article in question used a whole range of morphological characteristics (including color, size, head shape etc) to determine the relationship between breeds. So, instead of taking offense with an article that is actually well executed just because you do not like its conclusions, which actually to a degree are confirmed by the Roya article (From shortest genetic distance to biggest genetic distance: Losino, Carthusian, Asturcon, Garrano, Marismeno, Lusitano, Exmoor, Merens, Barb, Andalusian, Pottoka and Caballo de Corro) who shows some obvious closely related northern breeds. So, the data is correct.
 * What I can see is that the more superficial resemblence by comparing breeds does not give the same feel. That is logical. The mismatch between actual comparative studies using a host of morphological or genetic traits and the look and feel of those same horses is sometimes difficult to digest. The way forward is to address the similarities in look and feel and contrast them with those studies, which would be a major improvement as it actually addresses what readers of this article might see themselves. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 15:38, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * BTW< the article is available here for everybody: http://www.rac.uab.cat/bibliografia/articles/AHP/AGRI.pdf and the figures (2 and 3) can be read without understanding Spanish. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 16:03, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * In their tree, Sorraia is quite derived and its immediate tree topology is (Asturcon, (Gallego, Sorraia)). I notice the bootstrap support is poor.  Also, the authors give a rather imaginative interpretation of their tree, identifying its first branching point as the divergence between between "tarpan" and "Przewalski's Horse".  To evaluate that remarkable interpretation it is necessary at a minimum to understand how they constructed their outgroup, Raza Asnal Catalana (Jordana y Folch, 1996).  Kim, have you read the 1996 article?  --Una Smith (talk) 21:44, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The outgroup is an ass. The values are not bootstrap values, but number of changes. Some interpretations are based on the now rejected idea that some horse breeds are more like the Tarpan and some are more like the Przewalski. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 22:38, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Also disputing the statement [supported by ref. 10] that the Sorraia is morphologically related to the Asturcon and Gallego(Garrano) horses are statements in references 1, 11 and 12 which state that these horses are products of the northern regions and can be differentiated by their morphological traits. I think this statement should be removed from the article--it is contradictory and confuses the reader's comprehension of what the Sorraia horse looks like.Selona (talk) 15:22, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Roya (current 11) miscites Jordana and Pares (current 10) who show that the cluster of north eastern Iberian breeds (Aragononese, two Breton's and Burguete) form a different cluster separate from the other Northern and Southern breeds. Jansen (current 12) does not discuss morphology, but genetics, so is irrelevant in that context, besides that the genetics are already nicely reflected in the article. I don't have ref one available, but my guess is (tell me if I am wrong) that they talk primaritly about the look and feel resemblance and do not do a detailed study. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 15:48, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

3. Under the segment "Evolution and History" the present article says, "Genetic studies to date have been inconclusive about the closest relative of the Sorraia. Studies using mitochondrial DNA showed a close relationship with the Przewalski's Horse,[12][13][14] "

I am sorry, but I still find that the full perspective of the PNAS paper (ref. 12] has not been expressed, but I cannot properly articulate an alternative, and it appears that none of the other editors are disturbed by the way this reference is being used in this article to support something other than the consensus the authors of the paper relayed in their discussion of the results. I've entered my misgivings on the matter once again and will have to leave it at that.Selona (talk) 15:45, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, added two lines spelling it out. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 15:59, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with Selona that we still have not properly reflected the PNAS article (Jansen et al 2002). In it, type A1 (not A7) is shared by Sorraia with Konik and Mongolian domestic horses, and some others not specified in the article.  For those you have to consult another article;  I have not yet seen that article but if the sequence entries on GenBank are in the same order as in Jansen et al 2002, they appear to be Exmoor pony and a Eurasian breed.  Przewalski's Horse is another type, A2. --Una Smith (talk) 16:06, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Jansen et al. calls it JSO41, later articles use A7, so I clarified that detail. A1 is another somewhat more distant haplotype found in the Sorraia. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 16:28, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * That helps, thanks. --Una Smith (talk) 21:44, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

subspecies of the wild horse
Re the phrase "subspecies of the wild horse", is it really necessary to imply in this article a certain taxonomic and phylogenetic position of the tarpan and P's horse? These are disputed, and also tangential to this article. --Una Smith (talk) 16:11, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, and they are not disputed subspecies. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 16:22, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * They are disputed, particularly the tarpan. --Una Smith (talk) 21:25, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, maybe you could give me some recent references indicating that the Tarpan is a disputed subspecies. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 21:33, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Kim, can you describe it? By what characters can it be distinguished from domestic horses?  I have provided a 1906 reference showing how and why it was disputed then.  Can you provide a reference more recent than 1906 that resolves the dispute?  --Una Smith (talk) 21:52, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * He, a moving target. Yes, you provided a century old ref for a dispute about a century ago. Science has moved on since then. The question was whether the subspecies of the wild horse were well defined. You claim that the boundaries of the Tarpan are disputed (using a single century old ref), and I have at other places given you recent cites that indicate that the boundaries are not. So, it is up to you to show it is not yet established. here are some articles you can start with:
 * Kavar, Tatjana; Peter Dovč (2008). "Domestication of the horse: Genetic relationships between domestic and wild horses". Livestock Science 116: 1-14. doi:10.1016/j.livsci.2008.03.002.
 * Groves, Colin P. (1994). Boyd, Lee and Katherine A. Houpt.. ed. The Przewalski Horse: Morphology, Habitat and Taxonomy. Przewalski's Horse: The History and Biology of an Endangered Species.. Albany, New YorkColin P. Groves: State University of New York Press.
 * Lau, Allison; Lei Peng, Hiroki Goto, Leona Chemnick, Oliver A. Ryder, Kateryna D. Makova (2009). "Horse Domestication and Conservation Genetics of Przewalski’s Horse Inferred from Sex Chromosomal and Autosomal Sequences". Mol. Biol. Evol. 26 (1): 199–208. doi:doi:10.1093/molbev/msn239.
 * http://www.bucknell.edu/msw3/browse.asp?s=y&id=14100015
 * As for characteristics between the wild horse subspecies, cranial morphology, skeleton characteristics, number of chromosomes.... -- Kim van der Linde at venus 22:55, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Mostly minor fixes to all of the above
I made some fixes which take too long to explain in an edit summary, but weren't all that extensive in reality (I hope). I made a few assorted and I hope minor phrasing and wikilinking cleanups per Sox's comments. I also rephrased "frugal" to its actual link, with an explanation, as horse people simply do not use "frugal." "Roman-nosed" is kind of an insult in horse lingo, so keeping only the more specific "convex profile." I think the article Galician Pony references the Gallego, only by a different name. If that doesn't work, try a wikilink to Iberian horse. I next moved one sentence up to go with the rest of the tarpan discussion and broke the section from one into two paragraphs. I rearranged the last paragraph of the history section for what I hope is better flow. I removed a couple of phrases that appear to be mere editorial verbiage, and unsourced. I tossed the repeated references to Europe, the point was that American horses descend from Iberian animals, not the grullos lived in Europe (ALL Horses now in America came from Europe) If I was mistaken and removed sourced material, my apologies and feel free to restore. Montanabw (talk) 04:18, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Overall, I think some of Selona's concerns above may stem in part from the problem that Sorraias are rather attractive horses and they are getting compared to some more primitive, coarse, heavy and generally "uglier" horses. One problem is that scientists are not judges of equine conformation and quality, so when they link animals in overbroad terms with a less nuanced meaning in the outside world, people make the wrong connections. So I made a couple of wording tweaks to explain what is scientific thinking versus a judgement on equine conformation. I cut a couple of things that get us into the "what is a Tarpan" discussion, that is largely resolved on that article's talk page and need not be editorialized about here -- or in this article. Hope all of the above helped. I shall defer to Kim on the taxonomy issues, and to Dana on verification of sourcing, but hope the wordsmithing helped. Montanabw (talk) 04:18, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Re:"Sorraias are rather attractive horses". Of course, Montana, I find them to be attractive, very much so, but in a much different way than my Arabian is attractive and as an Arabian geek, I'm glad that you can appreciate the Sorraia's particularly different good looks, too.  Most of the folks breeding Kiger mustangs in captivity abhor the persistent atavistic emergence of the Sorraia phenotype in their horses.  They favor the  primitive coloring, but by the looks of things they've tailored their breeding programs to get a more Arabized head and eye and a more Quarter Horse rear-end.  Many of these breeders refer to the Sorraia horse as a "weak-rumped, ewe-necked, parrot-mouthed jughead".  A thousand thank you's for removing "Roman nose" from Altamiro's photo.  In the court days of Spain's opulent past, the convex profile was in vogue.Selona (talk) 21:03, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Still is, look at a lot of modern Andalusians. The skinny ones can pass for warmbloods, the heavier ones look like they came straight out of the Renaissance.   Montanabw (talk) 00:18, 11 February 2009 (UTC)